Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Rudy Can't Fail on August 16, 2011, 01:06:56 PM
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I've been thinking these last few weeks on just how poor our home form has been over the years, yet I remember back under Ron Saunders we'd be walking down Witton Lane before the game discussing how many goals we'd beat the opposition by. It seems so long since we had a Fortness Villa Park, if you don't believe me, have a look:
2011/12 W4 D7 L8
2010/11 W8 D7 L4
2009/10 W8 D8 L3
2008/09 W7 D9 L3
2007/08 W10 D3 L6
2006/07 W7 D8 L4
2005/06 W6 D6 L7
2004/05 W8 D6 L5
2003/04 W9 D6 L4
2002/03 W11 D2 L6
2001/02 W8 D7 L4
2000/01 W8 D8 L3
1999/00 W8 D8 L3
1998/99 W10 D3 L6
1997/98 W9 D3 L7
1996/97 W11 D5 L3
1995/96 W11 D5 L3
1994/95 W6 D9 L6
1993/94 W8 D5 L8
1992/93 W13 D5 L3
For a club of our size, that's really poor form. Teams must love coming to Villa Park. If we'd had a better record at Villa Park we really would have been in the Champions League in 3 of the four seasons under MON. Despite last season being a disaster, we only were down one point of what some describe as MON's finest the previous season. What's crazy is the Graham Taylor MKII season was better than both.
All I do know is that season ticket holders must be extremely loyal to put up with such poor form, whilst at the same time, if we could once again create Fortress Villa Park, we might finally start living up to our size. As we approach our first home game of the new season on Saturday, I'm wondering why we are so poor at Villa Park and if anything can be done to improve it. Is it teams like playing at Villa Park, they raise their game, the moaning and lack of patience at times from the Villa fans, I've no idea.
Anybody?
Edit: Updated to include 2011/2012.
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I was surprised when I saw how good our home record was in 80/81 (despite winning the league). Now only the top 3 tend to have great home records like that.
About half of the seasons picked here we lost 3 or 4 home games. I would probably say this isn't a surprise. Generally I'd expect to lose to 2 of the big 4, say and we always have a couple of crap home defeats...Wigan, Sunderland,
However, I'd expect us to win more than half the home games, which hasn't happened often here.
I'd expect generally W11 D5 L3. The fact we've only bettered this once is a worry. McLeish's home record at Blues was ok so hopefully there'll be some improvement.
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2007-8 when we did have more wins at home coincided with a run of more than decent crowds, too. We sold out several times that year, including against the likes of Newcastle, and near sell outs with Derby and West Ham.
Maybe that was also a reflection of our new-found spending power, though.
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You could be right Paulie.
They are pretty telling statistics, but then they seem about right for a team that has, lets face it, been mostly average during that time.
MON's team was setup for counter-attacking, that's why home form was not great under him. Our away record was great, even if in the posession count we were down.
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2007-8 when we did have more wins at home coincided with a run of more than decent crowds, too. We sold out several times that year, including against the likes of Newcastle, and near sell outs with Derby and West Ham.
Maybe that was also a reflection of our new-found spending power, though.
I don't think it was our spending power, more because we had the second best goal scoring games at home in the league, the 6th best attack and we only failed to score twice? Basically, Villa Park was an entertaining day out.
The point is, if Randy is looking to increase revenue, other than selling players, it wouldn't do any harm if we improved our home record. Whilst we've had a good away record, it does little for our coffers, especially when it's been so long since we've had consistently entertaining football at Villa Park. We've got the facilities, the capacity, the fan base, everything's in place except the demand.
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I was surprised when I saw how good our home record was in 80/81 (despite winning the league). Now only the top 3 tend to have great home records like that.
It wasn't just the League winning season though, have a look at Saunders' early record and you'll understand how he got the club buzzing:
1974/75 W16 D4 L1 Position: Div.II 2nd
1975/76 W11 D8 L2 Position: Div I 16th
1976/77 W17 D3 L1 Position: Div I 4th
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We just draw so many games, can't see that improving dramatically under AM but with a meaner defence and Bent on form anything's possible.
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Impressive stats - I assume our away form was shocking in 75/76!
I think then playing at home was more of an advantage. I imagine Anfield has had similar decline in points for Liverpool...i.e it isn't a scary place to go as an opposing player anymore.
Nowadays, for Villa, I suppose we respect the better teams too much and therefore don't win (or cock it up) and the crapper teams who come and defend we struggle to break down and therefore don't win (or cock it up).
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Fuck me that's depressing
We draw far too many at home, that was what cost us a CL place under MON
I remember in 1982/83 when we played 21, won 19, drew 1 and lost 1
happy days
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I think then playing at home was more of an advantage. I imagine Anfield has had similar decline in points for Liverpool...i.e it isn't a scary place to go as an opposing player anymore.
Even considering how crap they were last season, you can see why there's still the hype about Anfield:
2010/11 W12 D4 L3
2009/10 W13 D3 L3
2008/09 W12 D7 L0
2007/08 W12 D6 L1
2006/07 W14 D4 L1
2005/06 W15 D3 L1
2004/05 W12 D4 L3
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I think then playing at home was more of an advantage. I imagine Anfield has had similar decline in points for Liverpool...i.e it isn't a scary place to go as an opposing player anymore.
Even considering how crap they were last season, you can see why there's still the hype about Anfield:
2010/11 W12 D4 L3
2009/10 W13 D3 L3
2008/09 W12 D7 L0
2007/08 W12 D6 L1
2006/07 W14 D4 L1
2005/06 W15 D3 L1
2004/05 W12 D4 L3
Fair enough, should've done the research! In my head I just saw them as susceptible as us in dropping points against the likes of Charlton,. Watford, Blues, Sunderland...etc.
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We need to improve our home form if we to do anything in the league looking at the stats there are too many draws I'm hoping for us to do better this season with our attack we can always score goals now the defence seems to be solid again I can see us improving.
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Fuck me that's depressing
We draw far too many at home, that was what cost us a CL place under MON
I remember in 1982/83 when we played 21, won 19, drew 1 and lost 1
happy days
Happy Days indeed US!
As Mark says in the initial post, we were cocker hoop in those days, pretty much knew we were gonna win, playing brilliant football and scoring a lot of goals...me and my mate Dave would have bets on who would score and how many. Just LOVED Gary Shaw and Sid! Listen to Butler on the radio on the way home, then go out, have a few beers and take the piss BIG TIME out of our Bluenose "mates". 25/26 years of age, as fit as a flea, still playing myself (in my Evans/McNaught role) and loving life!
Good times!
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We need to improve our home form if we to do anything in the league looking at the stats there are too many draws I'm hoping for us to do better this season with our attack we can always score goals now the defence seems to be solid again I can see us improving.
I think we'll be better at home this year for the reasons you state dw. The scum had a pretty good record at the sty until it went tits up after their Centennial trip to Wembley and AM has said he wants to make VP a fortress. I just wish the fans would sing and shout all over the ground and intimidate the oppo a bit like they do at Stoke. Too many whingers around me who miss half the game buying tea and pies, leave 5 minutes before the game's ended, irrespective of the score, and look at me like the local nutter when I shout and swear at the ref/Downing. In spite of which, I'm really looking forward to Sat and the start of our unbeaten home run!
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Welcome to bouncy castle Villa Park.
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Impressive stats - I assume our away form was shocking in 75/76!
I think then playing at home was more of an advantage. I imagine Anfield has had similar decline in points for Liverpool...i.e it isn't a scary place to go as an opposing player anymore.
Nowadays, for Villa, I suppose we respect the better teams too much and therefore don't win (or cock it up) and the crapper teams who come and defend we struggle to break down and therefore don't win (or cock it up).
It was, we didn't win away in 75/76.
I think your reasons for our poor results at home are right. For example I went to 17 home games under MON's leadership before I saw a win (Bolton 08/09) and most of these were draws against sides who put 10 men behind the ball with the odd defeat thrown in, usually to the bigger clubs.
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We draw so many games! I'm sure that it reflects the fact that we have not had for ages someone who can put the ball in the back of the net on a regular basis - i.e. 20 league goals in a season. And finally when we do, as in now, the rest of the team is falling apart.
It is so frustrating supporting the Villa!!!!!!
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From the heading of this thread I thought that someone had posted the truth behind the old legend that a gypsy had cursed the fortunes at Villa Park. I had heard that from my father and grandfather. It was said more in disdain rather than fact. Over the years though I have frequently thought that there might be a possibility of it actually being true because often it is the only way you can explain some of the inexplicable results.
Perhaps Villa Park has been cursed somewhat like the Boston Red Sox fans used to believe in the Curse of the Bambino. Up until 2004, the Red Sox like Aston Villa had it's most impressive era before 1920/1 .
I often expect John Laurie as Private James Frazer to appear at the end of some games crying "We're Doomed ! We're all Doomed!"
Is that just the "Brummie" in me that thinks that way ?
With his red hair, Eck will not be a substitute for Private Frazer and anyway he is far too optimistic. Come to think of it Big Eck seems a much happier chappie than the wee MON. Perhaps the curse is over ? ........ nahhhhhhhhhhh why would we want to change the habits of a lifetime ?
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Impressive stats - I assume our away form was shocking in 75/76!
I think then playing at home was more of an advantage. I imagine Anfield has had similar decline in points for Liverpool...i.e it isn't a scary place to go as an opposing player anymore.
Nowadays, for Villa, I suppose we respect the better teams too much and therefore don't win (or cock it up) and the crapper teams who come and defend we struggle to break down and therefore don't win (or cock it up).
It was, we didn't win away in 75/76.
I think your reasons for our poor results at home are right. For example I went to 17 home games under MON's leadership before I saw a win (Bolton 08/09) and most of these were draws against sides who put 10 men behind the ball with the odd defeat thrown in, usually to the bigger clubs.
The thing is, it's not just about MON, it's about games at Villa Park. I'm not sure if there's anything behind it but maybe the players feel more stressed playing there. Maybe we're too quick to jump on their backs. Do we expect them to deliver before we give our vocal support? I'd love to hear from ex-players and their experiences of playing for the Villa at home.
Just to add, how come over the years when we play the top teams, the players seem to raise their game. Coincidence or is it that as fans we're behind the team from the first minute?
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Every year as soon as I read quotes from one of our players or the manager saying "We want to turn Villa Park into a fortress" I know we're in for another run of poor home form. I guarantee we'll see the same thing appear again over the next few days.
The key to good home form is having the creativity and intelligence to unlock well organised defences, but for many years we have tended to be pedestrian and predictable.
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Every year as soon as I read quotes from one of our players or the manager saying "We want to turn Villa Park into a fortress" I know we're in for another run of poor home form. I guarantee we'll see the same thing appear again over the next few days.
McLeish calls for Fortress Villa Park
http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~2422320,00.html
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Impressive stats - I assume our away form was shocking in 75/76!
I think then playing at home was more of an advantage. I imagine Anfield has had similar decline in points for Liverpool...i.e it isn't a scary place to go as an opposing player anymore.
Nowadays, for Villa, I suppose we respect the better teams too much and therefore don't win (or cock it up) and the crapper teams who come and defend we struggle to break down and therefore don't win (or cock it up).
It was, we didn't win away in 75/76.
I think your reasons for our poor results at home are right. For example I went to 17 home games under MON's leadership before I saw a win (Bolton 08/09) and most of these were draws against sides who put 10 men behind the ball with the odd defeat thrown in, usually to the bigger clubs.
The thing is, it's not just about MON, it's about games at Villa Park. I'm not sure if there's anything behind it but maybe the players feel more stressed playing there. Maybe we're too quick to jump on their backs. Do we expect them to deliver before we give our vocal support? I'd love to hear from ex-players and their experiences of playing for the Villa at home.
Just to add, how come over the years when we play the top teams, the players seem to raise their game. Coincidence or is it that as fans we're behind the team from the first minute?
A long time ago I posted on the forum about the access tunnel for the players, it's just too visitor friendly.
When the Trinity was redeveloped, the access tunnel should have been relocated to the Holte, so visiting teams have to endure a mass of claret & blue and then have a long walk too and from the friendly section where their supporters are.
For as long as I remember, the visiting team skips out and goes straight to their supporters, the Holte doesn't come into play until the teams change ends.
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Some of you have touched on one of the things that could have a bearing on our home form over recent years.
The lack of atmosphere at Villa Park. Yes I know that the players have to play well to win games, but the crowd has to play it's part.
Mr. Saunders in the match programme always asked for and got a wall of sound. I know times have changed, but back then the Holte would be rocking an hour before kick off. And when we paused for breath those posh people in the Trinity would start up and get us going again. And it went on for the full 90 mins.
The thing that always impresses me when I watch us away on TV or listen on the radio is the continuous singing and chanting of our fans and quite often drowning out the home fans for long periods.
At Villa Park we need to get back to those "wall of noise" times of the 70's and 80's. I'm certain it must give the players a lift to hear it and more importantly put the opposition off.
Hopefully the guys from Brigada 1874 will start to bring back some of that atmosphere. As long as the stewards leave them alone.
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I think, particularly when doing well under MON, that all teams in the league (bar Man Utd, Chelsea & Arsenal), came to Villa Park not wanting to lose, and so tended to play, as good as, 9 defenders who had no ambition of going out to win the game. This was where we tended to get stuck and run out of ideas of how to beat these sorts of teams. Man Utd, Chelsea & Arsenal had/have the players to overcome teams like this.
When we play away against the teams who come to defend against us, they have to come out and attack more, which made it easier for us to get a good result.
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I think, particularly when doing well under MON, that all teams in the league (bar Man Utd, Chelsea & Arsenal), came to Villa Park not wanting to lose, and so tended to play, as good as, 9 defenders who had no ambition of going out to win the game. This was where we tended to get stuck and run out of ideas of how to beat these sorts of teams. Man Utd, Chelsea & Arsenal had/have the players to overcome teams like this.
When we play away against the teams who come to defend against us, they have to come out and attack more, which made it easier for us to get a good result.
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The thing is, it's not just about MON, it's about games at Villa Park. I'm not sure if there's anything behind it but maybe the players feel more stressed playing there. Maybe we're too quick to jump on their backs. Do we expect them to deliver before we give our vocal support? I'd love to hear from ex-players and their experiences of playing for the Villa at home.
Just to add, how come over the years when we play the top teams, the players seem to raise their game. Coincidence or is it that as fans we're behind the team from the first minute?
I'd say that's exactly what it is. We joke about it on here, but in reality, much of the VP crowd are just one mislaid pass away from their first "for f**k's sake" of the game. We're a bunch of miserable buggers and get the home results that that attitude deserves.
Contrast that with the excellent away support under O'Neill (which was still much more pro-MON than the home support I'd say in percentage terms) and the results that followed. The players seemed much more up for that fight with the players on their side than the more difficult job of trying to break down defensive teams at home while being criticised for not getting the ball forward quick enough / getting the ball forward too quick.
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Gypsy curse most likely, time to get John Safran to sacrifice another chicken...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Safran
"Safran had gone to Mozambique to have a curse, previously placed on the Australian national football team by a now-deceased witch doctor, lifted. He and former Australian football team captain Johnny Warren were covered in chicken's blood in the process. Subsequently, on 16 November 2005, Australia qualified for the World Cup for the first time since 1974."
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2007-8 when we did have more wins at home coincided with a run of more than decent crowds, too. We sold out several times that year, including against the likes of Newcastle, and near sell outs with Derby and West Ham.
Maybe that was also a reflection of our new-found spending power, though.
We had 39,500 down for a mid-week game aginst Boro too.
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You bugger, Kelly. I was going to do an article about our crap home form for the next issue!
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You bugger, Kelly. I was going to do an article about our crap home form for the next issue!
Sorry fella but you should still do it. I get the feeling the fans are so used to us being crap at Villa Park, most don't know or expect anything different. For me, your home games are where you play your more expansive football, where you dominate teams, get the crowd on the feet and leave them happy and wanting to come back in a fortnight for more. Smash and grab away wins are great but our home form is where you measure the team, manager and club. Like the weather over Villa Park, there's been a few sunny days but mainly it's dull and non descript with the occasional break in the clouds. It's about time we had a prolonged Villa summer.
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Gypsy curse most likely, time to get John Safran to sacrifice another chicken...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Safran
You get him down to B6. Let's see if we have a chicken farmer amongst our supporters to provide the chicken. Better still lets get the Venkey's to bring a few along on Saturday! About 33,000 would do it and then we can all take them home for Sunday lunch.
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Maybe something to do with the booing at half time. Lose or draw this saturday boos definateley!!
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Support is an important factor but to have consistent winning home form you require a dominant and creative central midfield. When did we last have that?