Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Concrete John on July 27, 2011, 02:22:20 PM
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Lets get the obvious out of the way first; Yes, it's only pre-season. Yes, it's only two games. Yes, we still need some more players to be fully happy.
But all that aside, has your opinion of our prospects for 2011/2012 changed much over the last few weeks? A load of players were released, McLeish became our manager, Ash and Downing were sold - all of these things created a VERY negative atmosphere. However, since then we've (almost!) signed two very good players, won two pre-season games, seen the players we hope to rehabilitate look like that's more than just a hope and also seen the kids looking promising again. Plus, the style of football we've played looks far from the negative defense first appraoch we feared.
So, the question isn't 'do you think we'll be top 6?' or anything like that, but how, if at all, has your outlook changed since the darkest days of the summer? Were you preparing for a relegation battle, but now think mid-table? Or maybe thought we'd be OK, but have seen worrying signs that make you more nervous than before!
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Not sure where I fall there John. I don't think my confidence was high, but it wasn't low either. Maybe add - Cautiously confident and getting higher as an option. I think that's where I sit, and it will take a bit more for me to move to higher level than that.
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Not sure where I fall there John. I don't think my confidence was high, but it wasn't low either. Maybe add - Cautiously confident and getting higher as an option. I think that's where I sit, and it will take a bit more for me to move to higher level than that.
I'm in this camp too.
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Cautiously confident and getting higher...
... would be my feeling too, at the moment.
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I didn't want to put a 'cautiously optomistic', 'wait and see' or other such neutral option in, as it would have been an easy option and had the majority of votes. I'd rather people jumped one side of the fence or the other and say if their outlook is any brighter or not.
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I've re-assessed my expectations since May, which I find helps. Now I'm not anticipating a push for top six, or an influx of the mass quality of player I think we need to get back to top six material, and I think we'll be good for mid-table, or top half. I think McLeish is being realistic when he says the target is 9th or an improvement on that. Not trying to mislead anyone, or build up false hope. I like that. Contrasts well with the General's apparent insistence that top four is our target.
I've been encouraged by the reports that some of the more unsettled members of the squad seem determined to go for it, and Warnock looked very committed in the game today. And, the two (almost) signings so far have been good. The other positive, I think, is that - barring anything unforeseen - our pre-season will be much improved on last year, with a solid squad, preparing properly, no dramatic events to unseat us.
So, yes. More positive than mid June, without expecting too much this season. But if we can make steady progress, perhaps get to January in a reasonable position and maybe kick on with another key signing, we could have a decent season.
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Quietly confident - as a minimum we must be aiming to beat last year's finish then build on from there.
The defence will hopefully be a much stronger platform for us next term, and our team spirit and bond will be that extra bit tighter. If we stay injury free and our young lads step up I think we will really surprise the Premier League next season. Having so many young lads making the step up together adds to my interest and excitement - how I'd love to see this team take the League by storm.
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I didn't want to put a 'cautiously optomistic', 'wait and see' or other such neutral option in, as it would have been an easy option and had the majority of votes. I'd rather people jumped one side of the fence or the other and say if their outlook is any brighter or not.
In that case, my outlook is no brighter as I wasn't dissatisfied with McLeish's arrival and I've always felt we had a decent squad if all the players were utilised and managed effectively. I'm confident we will have a better season than last, and finish a couple of places higher up the league than we did last season.
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I didn't want to put a 'cautiously optomistic', 'wait and see' or other such neutral option in, as it would have been an easy option and had the majority of votes. I'd rather people jumped one side of the fence or the other and say if their outlook is any brighter or not.
Fair enough, I'll go for the fourth option then. Although my confidence has not gone down since Mr. Bent arrived.
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If we can use a scale of 1-10, then I'm about at a 5. I think he'll be better than Houllier in that he'll organise the defence and not piss off 50% of the squad like the useless Frenchman, but I'm not expecting anything other than dull football and a mid-table finish.
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Like last season, I think it's going to be a very tight league again with surprises all over the place and some of the "bigger teams" struggling perhaps. The defence sounds in better shape than last season though, so put me down as a 7.
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I just like the fact that:
Unlike GH who said he would sort the defence out "in the Summer" AMc has done it overnight.
Players who were dormant are now in position - Back four and playing hard and with confidence,
The kids are now treated as professionals and get stick from the old hands.
Based on two games only- every player seems to know his job and keeps it simple.
Two good (almost) signings.
We keep the ball with two minutes to go when on top.
Players who were negative last season, particularly Collins and Dunny are smiling again.
I dunno. There appears to be a very disciplined approach and the players seem to welcome it. After all the faffing around I certainly do.
Confidence was low but rising as reflected in the players performances.
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I'm more optimistic after seeing the game today as I think he'll have the defence sorted out. If we're tight at the back then we have players who can hurt any side.
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GH who said he would sort the defence out "in the Summer" AMc has done it overnight
I suspect Houllier was planning to sort the defense out by replacing it entirely, to be honest.
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Way, way, way too early to tell. We could beat Fulham 3-0 first game in which case watch the temperature gauge rise rapidly on here. If we lose by the same score, the place will go apoplectic. Twas ever thus and ever will be!
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GH who said he would sort the defence out "in the Summer" AMc has done it overnight
I suspect Houllier was planning to sort the defense out by replacing it entirely, to be honest.
I suspect you're right, but whether he'd have succeeded is another matter entirely. All of our recognised back four are getting on a bit, and are on big contracts, so I think we'd have been stuck with them to be honest. Far better if possible to get them back to somewhere near to the year before's standard.
Looks increasingly likely to me that last year's problems were caused mostly by Houllier's inability to work with what he had.
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I’m feeling better than I did a few weeks ago when things were just looking a bit depressing. If we’ve got a good handle on our defence and have begun to treat players both senior and less senior as part of a unit that must function then I’m starting to feel pretty good and we’ll be once more in a great position to challenge in that group from 6th to 10th place.
As someone said earlier there’s really not much this season between us and the Everton’s of this world and challengers such as the Smethwick Brazil, Blunderland, SJoke and the Cottagers. Could be a very tight season.
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I'm more optimistic after seeing the game today as I think he'll have the defence sorted out. If we're tight at the back then we have players who can hurt any side.
I've always said this!
I fully expected AM - actually, fuck it - Big Eck to get the defence sorted and keep us tight. Add that to a goal scorer like Bent and it's hard to see us not in the top half. My concern was the attacking element of the midfield, partly due to losing the players we did and partly because he might set us up too defensively, and whether they'd provide enough of a threat to see us climb higher up the table. Although it has been a bit makeshift with strikers used wide, I do think that element seems to be OK and N'Zogbia, once completed, will have enough freedom to hurt sides. Only drawback so far seems to be Albrighton, who'll need to step it up from what we've seen thus far.
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feeling a bit better, but not in cock-sucking mode just yet.......................................... (see Asia cup thread)
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GH who said he would sort the defence out "in the Summer" AMc has done it overnight
I suspect Houllier was planning to sort the defense out by replacing it entirely, to be honest.
Looks increasingly likely to me that last year's problems were caused mostly by Houllier's inability to work with what he had.
Or plain unwillingness, which is probably even worse. Early days and all, but to see the players over the last few weeks compared to under Houllier does not reflect well on him at all. He seemed like a nice enough bloke to me, but to lose great chunks of the team so dramatically is not the hallmark of a good manager.
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I feel confident going into the new season with the defence looking strong and our forward play being good anyway I feel you have to have high confidence otherwise you will send out the wrong signals and that will effect the players confidence.
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I'm confident that we'll be comfortably average this season, with a sprinkling of suprise results.
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However confident I am, I still refuse to use the phrase 'Big Eck'.
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However confident I am, I still refuse to use the phrase 'Big Eck'.
Same here.
'Fucking 'Eck' just suits me fine.
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I wont use Big Eck under any circumstances.
Anyway, I am of a smiliar magnificent mind to Toronto and not for the first time.
I'm cautiously optimistic and feeling bolder as the season approaches.
I dont think we'll see much Champagne football but perhaps some decent lager.
I think we'll be hard to beat and take it from there. We have firepower and a good mix of youth and experience.
I'm talking myself into looking forward to the season.
Bring it on and as the tankers say, fear naught!
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I gave him that as a one time deal after two friendly wins, maybe as he's starting to feel more like 'our' manager to me now.
Who knows - maybe I'll call him Big Eck when we win and Fucking Eck when we lose. I'm fickle like that 8)
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I wont use Big Eck under any circumstances.
Really...
I wont use Big Eck under any circumstances.
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Bah!
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Confidence was low after the debacle of last season, got lower when Young left, lower still when McLeish was appointed, lower again when Downing was sold, got prepared to go higher when McLeish was giving everyone a clean slate and thought we had nearly 40 mill to spend, levelled off at pretty low now were told Nzogbia is the last signing for now.
Don't want to come across as a complete doom and gloom merchant, but I am looking at anything higher than 8th as a bonus this year. Lower than 10th McLeish will feel the strain.
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Just as it would have been silly to start predicting doom and gloom on the basis of having lost the two friendlies so far, it's also silly to read too much in to them having won them. We looked quite good today, but it's exceptionally early days.
So my concerns haven't really changed, it is based on the personnel at the club, what we've been told about player investments, and the manager.
On the last of those points, though, I'm happy to give AM a chance, he's here, so there's no point in getting on his back and crucifying him. That to me is a bit of a no-brainer. He seems a decent enough, likeable chap, and I could not give a flying fuck if he came from Small Heath.
He's going to need two things, though, time and backing from the chairman.
On the first one, I'm worried he's not going to get it, because there will be a core of supporters who are happy to go through the motions of supporting him, but who will dive in the minute it goes wrong - mainly because of his previous association.
On the second one, this is clearly going to be a season of consolidation, in which we dump some of the deadwood, and lose some players who won't have a long term future with us, and generally trim some of the wasteful fat off. This I am more than happy to accept, as we clearly need it.
However, whilst I don't think we're strong enough to finish top six, and whilst consolidating we probably wouldnt be expected to, but we need to be very careful we don't fall too far down the pecking order. It is a balancing act. Drop too far, and not only do we throw away more of the progress made the last few years and give ourselves further to climb back, but we make it harder to hold on to players like Bent next summer
To avoid this, the chairman has to support the manager. That doesn't mean throwing money around blindly like we did under MON, that's what got us in this mess in the first place.
It does, though, mean that the chairman's going to have to put his hand in his pocket to a certain degree and trust AM to spend it well.
To this end, I think he's got a healthier approach than Martin had. I suspect that's why we spend 3.5m on Given rather than 8 or 9m on Ben Foster. Yes, Foster is the younger keeper, but quality wise they're pretty evenly matched, so it makes sense to save 5 or 6m and take Given. Martin would just have gone out and got Foster.
If he can get a Parker style player in for Parker sized fee, then we'll have swapped Downing for Given, N'Zogbia and Parker (or similar). That's definitely decent business, and a sign we're starting to play the market a bit better, but we're still pretty light elsewhere, and with a squad weaker than last year's. It's all very well pretending we can flog three of our best players in a little over a year and just promote some of the kids, resuscitate Ireland and Warnock and carry on as if nothing happened, but it won't happen like that.
The mooted "one more player" is hopefully a smoke screen, because it won't be enough, but if he can get a few bodies in, spend sensibly, and strengthen where it is most needed, then it'll be an interesting, if unspectacular season, but one which should see us emerge stronger for the long term at the end of it.
It's a very difficult balancing act, though, and the management of the club - coaching, CEO and chairman - absolutely have got to get it exactly right, because if they don't, we really do risk regressing too far.
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I can't wait. My expectations for the season were always 8th to 13th and they haven't changed. The reason I am excited is we are finally going to see some of our youth get a chance.
This time next year, maybe even January, we will know whether Bannan, the fonz, Delph, Albrighton, Licaj and Clark are good enough. Similarly whether Ireland and Warnock are mentalists.
Even with a 20% success rate that'll be 'like two new signings'.
Next year we lose the likes of Heskey, Beye, Young and Dunne and we'll have slashed the wage bill and be ready to really go for it next summer.
Maybe I have low expectations, but I see loads to be optimistic about.
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I've been reasonably confident for a while that we won't do as badly as some seem to suggest, so today hasn't really altered that.
The game was played about one notch up from testimonial pace -apart from a few tasty challenges towards the end. But I think even in a regular match, we could nullify the threat that Rovers provide.
So it's not proof positive for me by any means that the defence is now sorted. We'll face far sterner challenges than that. But Dunne looks in good shape (as does Collins) and Warnock was much improved on the headcase we often seen in the first part of the season last year, mistiming tackles and generally making an arse of himself. Given looks like he's been with us for years.
Bannan looked composed and confident in possession -and nice assist for Bent's goal. The midfield is still a bit of a concern, but with a few additions we should be confident of at least finishing above the likes of Everton, Sunderland and Newcastle. Anything beyond that depends on (a) the momentum we pick up and (b) whether the likes of Liverpool or Tottingham (preferably both) implode.
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I think we will start reasonably strongly before falling away when injuries and suspensions kick in over the winter. Finish of about 10-12th
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The mooted "one more player" is hopefully a smoke screen, because it won't be enough, but if he can get a few bodies in, spend sensibly, and strengthen where it is most needed, then it'll be an interesting, if unspectacular season, but one which should see us emerge stronger for the long term at the end of it.
I suspect that with the N'Zogbia signing they'll have the wage bill around where they want it for now. If so, it would make no sense, from a business perspective, to bump it straight back up again. That's why, for the short term at least, I'm expecting us to operate, broadly speaking, a one in, one out policy.
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I'm hoping we have an "'Eck" of a season.
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I agree. The squad numbers wise is probably big enough, especially without European matches.
Cuellar leaving might make room for Dann. Other than that, I cannot see anything happening till January.
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I think going into a PL season with only a dozen experienced outfield players is ridiculously risky.
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Who's been playing at right back for the last couple of games? Lichaj?
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Luke Young.
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I think going into a PL season with only a dozen experienced outfield players is ridiculously risky.
It is. That's why my stance hasn't changed much and I'm only slightly more confident than six weeks ago. We have a strong first X1, strong enough to match anyone outside the top six I'd say, but outside of that, almost everyone else is quite young and inexperienced. With noises being made publicly about no more signings, we'll need considerably more luck on the injury front this season. It remains my major worry, to be honest.
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Where's Gary Gardner?
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I'm now convinced we're going to win the league.
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A win against Warsaw and a team who could be one of the favourites to be relegated hasn't changed my view too much,though theyre are encouraging signs.
My worry is still the small and weak squad,1 and 2 injuries to defence,midfield and forwards and i fear we'll have a slump in form like we did from November to January last season. If and its a big if Bannan,Clark,Delph,fonz and Albrighton can show real consistancy,which is hard for young players,then things look promising. If they struggle and Ireland goes AWOL then the pressure on McCleish will reach tipping point.
But we have a good six games at the start of the season,so by the end of Sept,we'll know more about where we're gonna stand. UTV.
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I think going into a PL season with only a dozen experienced outfield players is ridiculously risky.
It is. That's why my stance hasn't changed much and I'm only slightly more confident than six weeks ago. We have a strong first X1, strong enough to match anyone outside the top six I'd say, but outside of that, almost everyone else is quite young and inexperienced. With noises being made publicly about no more signings, we'll need considerably more luck on the injury front this season. It remains my major worry, to be honest.
It depends on where you draw the line. I'd count 13 experienced players, including Beye, but some of the kids got a lot of games last season, in particular Clark, Albrighton, Bannan and Delph.
Thing is though, if you add another 3 or 4 senior players you might sleep easier at night, but what is the longterm harm to the kids development. Is this the classic example of Zat Knight and the Bolton Defender, only in reverse?
Ultimately faith is being put into the kids. You can't do that and have 4 or 5 players on £40k a week ready to come in 'just in case'. So lets hope the faith is justified.
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Thing is though, if you add another 3 or 4 senior players you might sleep easier at night, but what is the longterm harm to the kids development?
What's the long term harm to the club if relying too much on the kids sees us perform very poorly? And similarly, what is the long term harm to the kids themselves if they're put under too much pressure, too soon - the likes of Herd, Lowry, even Burke (who most of us had never heard of til the last week or two) and Johnson, who seem to be getting mentioned now.
We saw last season what happens when you use too many kids at the same time.
I'm not saying we shouldn't use the likes of Albrighton, Delfouneso etc etc, and there's no point having players on 40k a week doing nothing, you're right there, but N'Zogbia in and then relying on what we have plus the kids is really nowhere near strong enough.
In that sense, you're right, it does depend where you draw the line, and I reckon the line's in the wrong place if the above scenario is true.
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If this is a season of stability and consolidation then this is best time to bring the kids through. There's going to bumps, they are going to make mistakes as we nearly saw today with Clark and Albrighton. That said it's all part of the learning process. Good point about Zat Knight John. Do you bring in an established player and risk a Gary Cahill situation? Or do you give the likes of Clark/Bannan/Delph etc more playing time and thus give them more confidence and a chance to establish themselves.
We are a bit light, and in my opinion beyond N'Zogbia I'd like to see another 2 or 3 players. We'll see how it all plays out between now and the end of the window. I think AM will have some flexibility to make some moves late on as the situation dictates, and a loan deal or two may be the short term fix.
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Ten minutes to respond to my latest post; you're getting slow, John ;)
It's ultimately a balance, isn't it? No-one (mostly no-one) wants ageing pros on fat contracts, but we don't seem to have much middle ground now. We have a first X1, and then a second X1 of young lads. Albrighton, Clark, Delph... fine, no problems there. Bannan... probably up to playing a larger part. Then it's into a tier below, players with very little senior experience who could be asked to play quite a big part this season.
Even three-four injuries (not even on the same level as last year's awful injury jinx) and we could be vulnerable. But we'll see. I'd like one or two more established players added to the squad but it seems we won't have that.
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Parker is a natural signing for us. A leader on and off, great footballer.....is there any further news???
Given and N'Zogbia are quality signings. With the defence looking good again (on limited knowledge i know) and with a striker like Bent, we are in for a suprisingly good season and will be around 6th. Are we in danger of being a one man team? If Bent gets injured who will get the goals?
Problem is, Bent has a 30+ stormer and we lose him to Manure for 35M.......................same old same old.
I really fancy our chances of making a cup final too.
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Sorry, nothing about the present discussion about signings, younguns or injuries but just about the thread title and OP.
I can recommend the Luke Young interview on AVTV for anybody looking for confidence in the squad in the season to come. Whether you are interested in the defence or about the team playing 'as an eleven', he addresses both issues. It's the first time I've seen him interviewed and I think he comes over as an honest and dedicated Villa player.
There are some interesting comments later on in the interview about what different managers expect of a defensive player. Given his experience over the last few (!) managers over a relatively short time, I respect his views from this perspective.
Bannan, in another interview, thinks that the game today against Blackburn was 'far harder than Walsall'. I agree and don't think it was all about the heat/humidity.
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I was gonna post something regarding this the other day, before we'd even played today, but I am strangely upbeat about the coming season now. I dunno why. The dust has settled following the appointment of Big Eck, and we've got the inevitables out the way with Ash and Downing leaving.
Last pre-season there seemed an air of inevitability. Not so much that O Neill would fuck off a week before the first game of the season but that we were going down hill. He wasn't gonna last the season. We looked jaded, dull, unfresh. MON was clearly half assing it from the point that Milners departure was almost certain. I think discipline dropped badly. Players didn't work hard enough in pre-season. Gabby was overweight. Not just with the muscle gain, but he looked too heavy. Dunney was fucking huge. There were warning signs that O Neill had one foot out the door in all honesty, and most of us felt it was time for him to move on anyway.
Obviously Houllier came in with little time to do anything. That aside he was a ridiculous appointment and the wrong man for the job.
Now though, we are literally rebuilding. In 12 month we've lost 3 players we're so reliant on. Perhaps too reliant. We've gained a top class striker who is priceless. With the shifting in personel, it means a change in style. Our two winger system was growing stale under O Neill and never particularly hit fire under Houllier, or even his bizzare decision to field 3 wingers in the side, with Ash failing in his 2nd striker role. Though that was something in O Neills mind, that started in the pre-season.
I'm excited though. It could go wrong, but I think McLeish has done everything right so far, and we've got players here that need to show what they're made of. If they do, Ireland especially, we could do very well. The sher vitriol of his appointment though, seems to have mostly subsided thankfully.
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I'm more optimistic after seeing the game today as I think he'll have the defence sorted out. If we're tight at the back then we have players who can hurt any side.
I've always said this!
I fully expected AM - actually, fuck it - Big Eck to get the defence sorted and keep us tight. Add that to a goal scorer like Bent and it's hard to see us not in the top half. My concern was the attacking element of the midfield, partly due to losing the players we did and partly because he might set us up too defensively, and whether they'd provide enough of a threat to see us climb higher up the table. Although it has been a bit makeshift with strikers used wide, I do think that element seems to be OK and N'Zogbia, once completed, will have enough freedom to hurt sides. Only drawback so far seems to be Albrighton, who'll need to step it up from what we've seen thus far.
Agreed. What we really missed today was Downing driving forward with the ball. We looked very flat in midfield but hopefully Chaz Z and Ireland can bring some life to our game. Playing Petrov and Makoun together so deeply is always going to make our defence more solid but I really don't think it's the solution.
As for the youngsters, Bannan and Delph did themselves no harm but Albrighton and Clark both played unforgiveable back passes that will surely ring alarm bells, which is a concern as I'd expect all four to be pushing for a place this season. The jury is still out on the Fonz.
The one thing I have little concern with is Alex McLeish. He's no idiot and given a bit of time, will get the best out of what we have. It's just a shame all the money has gone. Still, I expect him to add to the squad, even if it's season long loans. If he can do that, I think we'll have a bloody good season. I've never been too concerned about his time at the Rags as I'm not even sure Mourinho could have stopped them being a yo-yo club.
I'm still thinking 7th providing the board give him a sporting chance.
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I think we will finish higher than last season . It looked like 3 new players ( dunne , warnock and collins ) in the back four with the excellent Given. Even Heskey looked pretty good. Nzogbia will be a massive plus for us , we have the top goalscorer in the league and If AM can get Ireland to his best , then we will be hard to beat with alot of creative up front . I just think we need that top grafting leader of a midfielder.
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I just think we need that top grafting leader of a midfielder.
Couldn't agree more.
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If this is a season of stability and consolidation then this is best time to bring the kids through. There's going to bumps, they are going to make mistakes as we nearly saw today with Clark and Albrighton. That said it's all part of the learning process. Good point about Zat Knight John. Do you bring in an established player and risk a Gary Cahill situation? Or do you give the likes of Clark/Bannan/Delph etc more playing time and thus give them more confidence and a chance to establish themselves.
We are a bit light, and in my opinion beyond N'Zogbia I'd like to see another 2 or 3 players. We'll see how it all plays out between now and the end of the window. I think AM will have some flexibility to make some moves late on as the situation dictates, and a loan deal or two may be the short term fix.
You've said pretty much what I'm saying there, Toronto.
Yes, blood the kids, but we're also 2 or 3 players light beyond CNZ.
Not filling those holes would lead to over-reliance on the kids, which isn't good for the club or the kids.
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If we signed Parker I'd be much more confident.
Plus, goalscoring - a lot of weight on Bentys shoulders, a signing of some quality in that dept would be ace.
Ireland, Delph, Petrov and Makoun need big seasons too.
8th I'm predicting.
6th if we make a few more signings and no more releasings.
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Sorry, nothing about the present discussion about signings, younguns or injuries but just about the thread title and OP.
I can recommend the Luke Young interview on AVTV for anybody looking for confidence in the squad in the season to come. Whether you are interested in the defence or about the team playing 'as an eleven', he addresses both issues. It's the first time I've seen him interviewed and I think he comes over as an honest and dedicated Villa player.
There are some interesting comments later on in the interview about what different managers expect of a defensive player. Given his experience over the last few (!) managers over a relatively short time, I respect his views from this perspective.
Good shout, just watched it and agree entirely.
He made the point that we've got a good back four but over the last few years, we've not really managed to shield it very well for great periods.
He's right there. Certainly last year, anyway.
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It could go wrong, but I think McLeish has done everything right so far, and we've got players here that need to show what they're made of. If they do, Ireland especially, we could do very well. The sher vitriol of his appointment though, seems to have mostly subsided thankfully.
Wait until we get spanked by Chelsea. Expect more girly hissy fits.
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I've not seen the game today (some of us had to work you know) but from what i've read on here and from what my dad told me earlier, it was very good defensively and we played some good stuff. We played some nice football at Bescot too. Looking forward to seeing us on Saturday, it'll be more of a test obviously.
I should be fearing the worst after us losing two of our best players and employing a manager who took a team down last season, but for some very strange reason, i've got a feeling that we're going to be in for a good season.
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I just think we need that top grafting leader of a midfielder.
Couldn't agree more.
Absolutely. And the comments about cover for the Defence is true. It is why we defended better last season when Petrov was playing even though his engine only runs for sixty minutes. I felt GH left the back four isolated. And confused. And unstable. Today we had a left back playing in positon a right back the same and a central pair who looked to be confident, brave and enjoying it.
Parker could go some way to solving that. We need that Captain/motivator/ solid midfield link. Good discussion.
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I have just had a quick look on the outright odds There is the obvious 4 then liverpool on 10/1 Spuds at 50 Everyon and Us at 300 and 2000 the rest
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I am not optimistic about the season ahead. The manager seems to want to engineer our expectations to Small Heath levels the ethos for which is any season you do not get relegated is a good season.
We have fallen too far and too fast from those heady days when we were leading Stoke by two goals and Arsenal's slot was there for the taking.
I think we have been brainwashed into downgrading our hopes and expectations like the man who convinces himself that his wife's ugliness is balanced by her ability to cook.
For me, the dull football and mid table finish will be failure. I accept that for others it will be comfortable and sensible but I don't follow Villa for comfort or security. I want highs not contentment and for that reason McLeish's comments today that 9th may be too much for us is one of the most depressing things I have ever heard said about our club.
I am braced for an awful season.
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Brian, surely a msn of your experience knows better than to put much store by the comments made by a manager at a press conference. If you read the quotes they are fairly non-committal, acknowledging how tough the league is but not making himself a hostage to fortune by making rash predictions.
Better to judge him on what he does, rather than what he says.
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I have just had a quick look on the outright odds There is the obvious 4 then liverpool on 10/1 Spuds at 50 Everyon and Us at 300 and 2000 the rest
Looking at who Liverpool have signed so far I don't see such a difference between them and us at the moment, let alone the other 2 clubs concerned. I still think lots of people are assessing them as if they are in Europe next season. And they are not. Just checked their fixtures. Still nothing.
That said, what happens if Blues' financial credibility collapses and the full wrath of the FA descends upon them, yea unto the 1000th generation, or to the point where they can't do anything except train in the car park? And they can't go to Europe, even on the ferry from Harwich?
Are L'pool the next in line by default?
Come on, you Blues...
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Its not what he said Chris, it's the fact that it needed to be said at all. Of course he will be circumspect, of course he will be guarded of course he is going to cover his arse but the saying of it at all at this time after everything which has happened since the O'Neill flounce leaves me with a profound sense of emptiness.
It's like holding your baby in your arms after the christening and saying with a bit of luck this son of mine will one day get a job of some sort and stay out of prison. It is bleakly true but it ain't what the occasion calls for.
Houllier was a verbal smart arse. McLeish is a damner with faint praise.
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Confident we'll be back to MON levels of competitiveness. Will reserve judgement past that.
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I suppose there is also an element of Mcleish looking after his own back in the "tough to get ninth" comment.
We finish 8th and what a unbelievable job he has done.
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I suppose there is also an element of Mcleish looking after his own back in the "tough to get ninth" comment.
That's the only thing until now that he's done to piss me off. Read his post match comments on the OS, the man talks so much sense. He really seems to understand the game and how to motivate players. Our previous two managers could only manage one of the two.
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I suppose there is also an element of Mcleish looking after his own back in the "tough to get ninth" comment.
We finish 8th and what a unbelievable job he has done.
"At least we are not Leeds" - my least favorite dictum :'(
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I agree with you Mark. He is clearly a football man through and through. The tough to get ninth comment demeans the club the fans and the players but it is the only real blunder he has made. I would much have preferred him to say despite the departure of some excellent players we have a squad of players who are perfectly capable of beating any team in the Premiership on their day. It is my job as manager to make it happen on a weekly basis. The tough to get ninth was lumpen verbal hoofball.
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I agree with you Mark. He is clearly a football man through and through. The tough to get ninth comment demeans the club the fans and the players but it is the only real blunder he has made. I would much have preferred him to say despite the departure of some excellent players we have a squad of players who are perfectly capable of beating any team in the Premiership on their day. It is my job as manager to make it happen on a weekly basis. The tough to get ninth was lumpen verbal hoofball.
When he made those comments he'd seen his team play once, against lower league opposition, so the comments you suggest would have been just as meaningless, other than to provide us with a bit of rabble rousing rhetoric.
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I really don't why anyone would get wound up over those comments. His team in two games haven't played anything like the football that his reputation suggests. In fact quite the opposite. It's been quick and to the point, with a continuation of the type of play that GH had been encouraging. They've worked hard for each other and defended better. Why hang to a manager's words when the actions of the players and the team in general are so much louder. For me the Luke Young interview was a real insight into the changes that have taken place already at the club. It's all been positive so far.
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I really don't why anyone would get wound up over those comments.
It's very simple TV, football is all about hope, especially pre-season. The last thing I want to hear from a Villa manager is how we'll be lucky to finish midtable or repeat the disaster of the previous season. Don't drag us down to the expectations of the Rags. This is Aston Villa, ffs.
Apart from that, I like him.
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I really don't why anyone would get wound up over those comments.
It's very simple TV, football is all about hope, especially pre-season. The last thing I want to hear from a Villa manager is how we'll be lucky to finish midtable or repeat the disaster of the previous season. Don't drag us down to the expectations of the Rags. This is Aston Villa, ffs.
Apart from that, I like him.
I understand, but I'm going to get my hope from what I see in the team and the club, and not in a few guarded words by the manager. If AM had come out and said top six is the target I wouldn't be any more optimistic about the season to be honest. I'd still be on the cautious side until I see the evidence. From the little we've seen and heard so far, the entire team looks more committed to the cause and that on its own is big step forward. We need to add some quality, but I think AM knows that. Somehow, after all the PR disasters from last season, I think the club have told the manager to be extra responsible in the press yet behind the scenes they'll still support him. At least that's my read on things.
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Last year biggest failure was that when they tried to manage expectations of the fans, they couldn't exceed them. Everyone knew it was most likely going to be a transitional season, GH came in with his comments about Villa being seen as a 7-12th place club (which the supporters took the wrong way as to his intention imo) and then when we had a transitional season and finished between 7-12th everyone was annoyed that their expectations were met and that it felt weird because we didn't feel like we got to the top half on merit, it was just that in a shit year, there were 11 teams even worse.
In all honesty, even with losing 4 of our best players from last year (I'm including Friedel and Reo Coker) I still think there are 12 teams that are worse than us in the division. AM has already said in an earlier interview that finishing lower than last year would be considered a failure and if he can come in, get somewhere near decent performances out of some of our previously unsettled players use the kids well after kmac, GH, and GM did the hard work of blooding them last year and finish in the top 10 it will feel like he has done well. He knows that doing worse than that the fans who are already on a knife-edge will turn on him.
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I agree with you Mark. He is clearly a football man through and through. The tough to get ninth comment demeans the club the fans and the players but it is the only real blunder he has made. I would much have preferred him to say despite the departure of some excellent players we have a squad of players who are perfectly capable of beating any team in the Premiership on their day. It is my job as manager to make it happen on a weekly basis. The tough to get ninth was lumpen verbal hoofball.
When he made those comments he'd seen his team play once, against lower league opposition, so the comments you suggest would have been just as meaningless, other than to provide us with a bit of rabble rousing rhetoric.
Sometimes leaders need to use rabble rousing rhetoric. Being positive and motivational are not bad skills to have. Even if he's being more positive in the dressing room, players will hear these kind of things and think that he doesn't really have much belief in them. The simple fact is there was no need to say it. Keep the negative stuff in your own mind if you want to inspire others. The christening analogy is spot on.
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I agree with you Mark. He is clearly a football man through and through. The tough to get ninth comment demeans the club the fans and the players but it is the only real blunder he has made. I would much have preferred him to say despite the departure of some excellent players we have a squad of players who are perfectly capable of beating any team in the Premiership on their day. It is my job as manager to make it happen on a weekly basis. The tough to get ninth was lumpen verbal hoofball.
When he made those comments he'd seen his team play once, against lower league opposition, so the comments you suggest would have been just as meaningless, other than to provide us with a bit of rabble rousing rhetoric.
Sometimes leaders need to use rabble rousing rhetoric. Being positive and motivational are not bad skills to have. Even if he's being more positive in the dressing room, players will hear these kind of things and think that he doesn't really have much belief in them. The simple fact is there was no need to say it. Keep the negative stuff in your own mind if you want to inspire others. The christening analogy is spot on.
I disagree with that, players are already remarking about the togetherness that AM has instilled in the squad, that is one of his strengths.
One thing is for sure, AM will get the best out of every player that we have, he did it with his previous teams and did it against Arsenal in a cup final where he as much as said his team had no chance prior to the game. No rethoric used there, at least not to the press. The dressing room must have been a totally different matter.
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One thing is for sure, AM will get the best out of every player that we have, he did it with his previous teams and did it against Arsenal in a cup final where he as much as said his team had no chance prior to the game. No rethoric used there, at least not to the press. The dressing room must have been a totally different matter.
Whilst I agree with the rest of your post, the bit highlighted is a bit of an exaggeration isn't it? Hleb and Bentley last year, for example?
I don't think there's a single manager around who gets the best out of every player he has, to be honest.
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Hleb, Bentley, Zigic, Curtis Davies.... there's a few, and they all were players he bought in. He got a lot out of players like Bowyer, Carr and Foster. Especially Johnson and Dann. He's got a decent enough sucess rate, similar to most managers I guess. You win some, you lose some.
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I still think we are fullback and a central midfielder short. However if we can get Ireland, Dunne, Warnock all playing at their best then I think we've certainly got a good first 11.
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Pre-season games mean nowt. If we'd been hammered in both games it wouldn't have any bearing on how we'll do this season
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One thing is for sure, AM will get the best out of every player that we have, he did it with his previous teams and did it against Arsenal in a cup final where he as much as said his team had no chance prior to the game. No rethoric used there, at least not to the press. The dressing room must have been a totally different matter.
Whilst I agree with the rest of your post, the bit highlighted is a bit of an exaggeration isn't it? Hleb and Bentley last year, for example?
I don't think there's a single manager around who gets the best out of every player he has, to be honest.
Okay, maybe not the two you've highlighted but they were only half season loans who probably didn't even want to be there. It's more aimed at the likes of Carr, Gardner, Fergueson and the like. Average at best type players who he somehow got that extra bit out of.
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I still think we are fullback and a central midfielder short. However if we can get Ireland, Dunne, Warnock all playing at their best then I think we've certainly got a good first 11.
I think with Young, Beye and Cuellar at right back, Warnock, Clark, Baker and Young at left back we have enough.
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One thing is for sure, AM will get the best out of every player that we have, he did it with his previous teams and did it against Arsenal in a cup final where he as much as said his team had no chance prior to the game. No rethoric used there, at least not to the press. The dressing room must have been a totally different matter.
Whilst I agree with the rest of your post, the bit highlighted is a bit of an exaggeration isn't it? Hleb and Bentley last year, for example?
I don't think there's a single manager around who gets the best out of every player he has, to be honest.
Okay, maybe not the two you've highlighted but they were only half season loans who probably didn't even want to be there. It's more aimed at the likes of Carr, Gardner, Fergueson and the like. Average at best type players who he somehow got that extra bit out of.
Sounds a bit like MON
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To be fair though, wasn't Hleb made of glass for most of the time he was over the road, and The Nation's Favourite Gaffer 'Appy 'Arry wasn't able to get Bentley playing well either, so it's not as if it was all McLeish's fault on that one.
As for the topic of this thread, I've been pleasantly surprised so far. My biggest concern with McLeish was that he'd get us playing gash football, but from what I've seen so far (yes, only 2 friendlies, but that's all we can judge him on to date), he's got us playing good stuff. If he continues in a similar fashion, I'll certainly be more confident about the future.
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One thing is for sure, AM will get the best out of every player that we have, he did it with his previous teams and did it against Arsenal in a cup final where he as much as said his team had no chance prior to the game. No rethoric used there, at least not to the press. The dressing room must have been a totally different matter.
Whilst I agree with the rest of your post, the bit highlighted is a bit of an exaggeration isn't it? Hleb and Bentley last year, for example?
I don't think there's a single manager around who gets the best out of every player he has, to be honest.
Okay, maybe not the two you've highlighted but they were only half season loans who probably didn't even want to be there. It's more aimed at the likes of Carr, Gardner, Fergueson and the like. Average at best type players who he somehow got that extra bit out of.
Sounds a bit like MON
It certainly does and it's no bad trait. If he can do the other important bits where MON was less successful then we should all be pleasently surprised.
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As for the topic of this thread, I've been pleasantly surprised so far. My biggest concern with McLeish was that he'd get us playing gash football, but from what I've seen so far (yes, only 2 friendlies, but that's all we can judge him on to date), he's got us playing good stuff. If he continues in a similar fashion, I'll certainly be more confident about the future.
It may be worth noting that Bent's goal yesterday was the end result of a 19 pass move. Downing's on the last day of the season was a 16 pass move. You hear the players commenting on how we are keeping the ball much better now. He may not get the headlines but I do get the feeling Sid is vital to the way we are trying to play and the players are responding.
Now with the addition of Chaz Z, if we can add a bit of speed down the wings, we may for the first time in ages have both a Plan A and Plan B, which can only be a good thing.
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i feel confident of a decent season and better than last year but im not setting my expectations too high - i think we will be around 7th place and chasing a europa place -i think last seasons top 6 will be this seasons top 6 and we will pip everton to best of the rest.
anything better than 7th would be a surprise,i think liverpool and spurs have more depth than us at this moment.
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Pre-season games mean nowt. If we'd been hammered in both games it wouldn't have any bearing on how we'll do this season
Had we got hammered in both games it would have badly affected the confidence of the entire team, would have caused people like you to explode, and others that go to the games that have a dislike for Mcleish to really lay into him which ultimately would have been bad for the team morale. Pre-season isn't the be all and end all, but it certainly means a lot more than nowt, especially if it goes well. It gives the team a little bit of belief and togetherness that can go a long way. And especially after the season we just had.
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Pre-season games mean nowt. If we'd been hammered in both games it wouldn't have any bearing on how we'll do this season
Come off it, you'd have been spreading your misery all over the place.
H&V's Voice of Treason since the last Century, indeed.
GH has gone, Gregory. Get over it!
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The reuslts of pre-season are virtually meaningless, as they're at best semi-competitive, but the games themselves do have use. Firstly, fitness, then bedding in any new signings, then getting the team playing the way the manager wants.
Fitness looks decent.
Only one signing played thus far, but he looks like he's been there for years.
And the way we're playing is good.
But the main positive for me is the attitude and performances of the previously written off players. With the small amount of new signings we need them to get back up to speed and they look like doing it thus far.
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To be fair though, wasn't Hleb made of glass for most of the time he was over the road, and The Nation's Favourite Gaffer 'Appy 'Arry wasn't able to get Bentley playing well either, so it's not as if it was all McLeish's fault on that one.
As for the topic of this thread, I've been pleasantly surprised so far. My biggest concern with McLeish was that he'd get us playing gash football, but from what I've seen so far (yes, only 2 friendlies, but that's all we can judge him on to date), he's got us playing good stuff. If he continues in a similar fashion, I'll certainly be more confident about the future.
agree with this, the quality of football was my biggest concern to.
very positive in the first couple of friendlies, i'm still not holding my breath though,
everthing he has done so far has been very profesional and well recieved.
but his track record of playing dour football remains,
i know people think its all about the players he has to work with, but its not the case, look at Bolton under Sam Allardyce and now under Owen Coyle.
remember that Blackpool and Birmingham both went down, but which one would you have rather watched last season,
i'm still hopefull he can deliver some entertaining football,
and its so far so good, but the acid tests are yet to arrive, we were struggling to fill VP last season, so i dont think there will be a mad rush to come and watch a negative defensive team play in the style of 'we are difficult to beat'