Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: kippaxvilla2 on June 25, 2011, 03:55:43 PM
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Lerner said: "It is my belief and the basis for my bid that Aston Villa can compete at the highest level within the Premiership and in Europe.
"The club has a rich history and a long tradition of passionate fan support."
In the statement, RAL added: "We will be looking to allocate financial resources across multiple fronts such as an upgraded training ground and facilities, which are intended to include the academy, stadium upgrades and player acquisitions.
Good points - The Academy, traning complex, the pub redevelopment, player acquisitions especially in the early years.
Bad points - Major faux pas over handling of manager appointments/departures, player contracts, alienating fans especially this summer, poor board appointment, PR gaffes, a club that is now way, way short of the resources required to match the original ambition as stated above.
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Academy and training facilities great, and some highlights. Although if we completely regress now it means nothing. So he needs to make statement or it was all for nothing.
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To his credit Randy gave it his best shot, but his investment was placed in the hands of the wrong manager and the plan failed. Now we have to adjust to being happy with Premier League survival, and the occasional cup run if we're lucky, lest we 'do a Leeds'. We may still yet 'do a Leeds' if we do not sturdy ourselves and pull in the same direction for the grind ahead. Appointing a manager with a poor Premier League record from our most hated rivals will do little to unite fans in backing the 'new Villa'* especially in such a precarious transitional season.
*Some might say this amounts to the same as the old Villa.
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I think we're entering endgame now, since O'Neill left the club have lurched from one fuck up to another. I think Mr Lerner Sir now realises that he can't compete, so has more or less given up.
I can see the club being sold.
Disappointing all round after the massive inroads we made in the first 3 years or so.
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They haven't realised their ambitions, the Premier League has moved on and Lerner doesn't have the money or the nous to keep up with the pace.
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A series of missed opportunities.
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Can't see the north stand being redeveloped now ???
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I still blame mon, I think I always will for the way he spunked away so much money on so much shite.
I still think/hope RL has an ace up his sleeve like bent...
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Big, big disappointment, but as stated, i think the good intentions and effort have been there to an extent. In all fairness though, i was dissapointed after that first full summer '07, after rubbing my hands together thinking we were going to do a mini Chelsea, and then the best signing being Reo Coker. I've occasionally been impressed since, the training facilities sound good, the signings of Milner, Downing and Bent although 2 of those came after selling our best player.
Had a few good moments on the pitch, most noteably getting to a cup final and the win at OT and the 5-1 against the blues. Got to say, i was expecting so much more.
Having said that, i wouldn't be in a rush to see us sold unless to a multi billionaire as at Chelsea and Man City.
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Lerner's shit. He's done nothing for us. I always said so, I just kept quiet about it for 4 1/2 years. He should sell up now to a consortium of Arab billionaires. There's bound to be one waiting.
There you go - that'll save a few pages.
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Well done Dave, perfect response.
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Randy's blown it.
How?
We don't know who he his, what he does and what he believes in because he doesn't speak to us.
I don't mind mistakes so long as they are committed by people willing to engage in dialogue about how those mistakes came about.
In previous instances of fuck ups Doug just patronised us.
Randy refuses to even talk to us when he fucks up
Which is worse?
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Lerner's shit. He's done nothing for us. I always said so, I just kept quiet about it for 4 1/2 years. He should sell up now to a consortium of Arab billionaires. There's bound to be one waiting.
There you go - that'll save a few pages.
That's possibly one of your more petulant responses.
The reign is 5 years old, given the events of especially this summer, I think it is worth analysing its record.
Obviously you dont believe what you write is correct, but I am fairly certain you do not think RAL have been perfect either in their stewardship so why not give us the good and bad points, assuming you want to contribute any further to this debate, if not fair enough.
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IF we had given longer contracts to all our star players, we would be in such a different position, but lets face it the only way to truely compete is a consistant injection of money.
Randy was never going to continue spending millions and millions, the only way he could do that is by, us filling the ground and him charging us £1200 a season ticket, which no one would accept, so we all need to accept where we are right now.
We missed the boat when MON messed it up, but even if we would have made the CL, look at spurs, its still very difficult to attract top players and sustain the success.
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Lerner's shit. He's done nothing for us. I always said so, I just kept quiet about it for 4 1/2 years. He should sell up now to a consortium of Arab billionaires. There's bound to be one waiting.
There you go - that'll save a few pages.
That's possibly one of your more petulant responses.
The reign is 5 years old, given the events of especially this summer, I think it is worth analysing its record.
Obviously you dont believe what you write is correct, but I am fairly certain you do not think RAL have been perfect either in their stewardship so why not give us the good and bad points, assuming you want to contribute any further to this debate, if not fair enough.
Really? Well it's one of your more tedious threads so that makes us even.
We're having this debate just about everywhere now, and it's getting a bit boring. Randy does what we want him to do for four years - Randy's great. Randy does something unpopular - he's crap and he always has been, everything the club does now is wrong.
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To his credit Randy gave it his best shot, but his investment was placed in the hands of the wrong manager and the plan failed. Now we have to adjust to being happy with Premier League survival, and the occasional cup run if we're lucky, lest we 'do a Leeds'. We may still yet 'do a Leeds' if we do not sturdy ourselves and pull in the same direction for the grind ahead. Appointing a manager with a poor Premier League record from our most hated rivals will do little to unite fans in backing the 'new Villa'* especially in such a precarious transitional season.
*Some might say this amounts to the same as the old Villa.
£80m invested in the squad over five years isn't enough, regardless of who the manager was/is. There was no reason to assume we could have a top four team based on that level of investment and we did extremely well to get as close as we did.
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To his credit Randy gave it his best shot, but his investment was placed in the hands of the wrong manager and the plan failed. Now we have to adjust to being happy with Premier League survival, and the occasional cup run if we're lucky, lest we 'do a Leeds'. We may still yet 'do a Leeds' if we do not sturdy ourselves and pull in the same direction for the grind ahead. Appointing a manager with a poor Premier League record from our most hated rivals will do little to unite fans in backing the 'new Villa'* especially in such a precarious transitional season.
*Some might say this amounts to the same as the old Villa.
£80m invested in the squad over five years isn't enough, regardless of who the manager was/is. There was no reason to assume we could have a top four team based on that level of investment and we did extremely well to get as close as we did.
Spot on, and it will be £40m if Downing is sold before we buy anyone. I predicted that it would take years of heavy losses to get us 'up there', but I was confident we'd do it as I thought Randy was aware of this and ready, willing and able to sustain it.
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To his credit Randy gave it his best shot, but his investment was placed in the hands of the wrong manager and the plan failed. Now we have to adjust to being happy with Premier League survival, and the occasional cup run if we're lucky, lest we 'do a Leeds'. We may still yet 'do a Leeds' if we do not sturdy ourselves and pull in the same direction for the grind ahead. Appointing a manager with a poor Premier League record from our most hated rivals will do little to unite fans in backing the 'new Villa'* especially in such a precarious transitional season.
*Some might say this amounts to the same as the old Villa.
£80m invested in the squad over five years isn't enough, regardless of who the manager was/is. There was no reason to assume we could have a top four team based on that level of investment and we did extremely well to get as close as we did.
Spot on, and it will be £40m if Downing is sold before we buy anyone.
You may have a point, but when you consider fees and wages spent on distinctly average players, and players hardly ever used, one feels much of the outlay could have been put to much better use.
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I think what has happened is that the club has lost it's way over the past 12 months. For that first four years we were all pulling in the same direction with shared goals. Now, we are much less sure of ourselves and our goals. The Champions League, the dream to which the club aspired, is too distant a possibility to be that goal so senior figures are unsure of what they want.
I honestly don't know what is going to happen from here on in. Are the board going to invest and back McLeish or are we going to strive towards self sufficiency regardless of what goes on the pitch? My view and desire is quite simply. I want Aston Villa to win as many football games as possibly but if the decision from the board is to rein things in I can just about understand it. What is large scale spending going to achieve? Sixth or seventh at best as we cannot really compete with the spending now being committed by the five or six clubs above us or indeed their prestige. If MoN was still in charge and spending as he was things would be no better as much as some struggle to accept it. We had our chance in 08/09 and we blew it. Sixth/seventh is the glass ceiling and as much as some may delude themselves that FFP is going to change that it will only entrench an order that limits us to sixth/seventh at best.
God knows where we are going. I cannot pretend to be able to read the boards' minds so I don't know what they are going to do. A year ago before the malaise of summer 2010, MoN, Houllier and McLeish I could probably have read their intentions.
I don't think there is an Arab consortium waiting around the corner and I don't think anyone on here is stupid enough to believe it. I see us as having to make the best of what we have got. I don't believe in unstinting praise of the board and I also don't believe in the nonsense spouted by some of our more hysterical posters.
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Lerner's shit. He's done nothing for us. I always said so, I just kept quiet about it for 4 1/2 years. He should sell up now to a consortium of Arab billionaires. There's bound to be one waiting.
There you go - that'll save a few pages.
That's possibly one of your more petulant responses.
The reign is 5 years old, given the events of especially this summer, I think it is worth analysing its record.
Obviously you dont believe what you write is correct, but I am fairly certain you do not think RAL have been perfect either in their stewardship so why not give us the good and bad points, assuming you want to contribute any further to this debate, if not fair enough.
Really? Well it's one of your more tedious threads so that makes us even.
We're having this debate just about everywhere now, and it's getting a bit boring. Randy does what we want him to do for four years - Randy's great. Randy does something unpopular - he's crap and he always has been, everything the club does now is wrong.
I start a thread about an analysis of the 5 year stewardship of the club under the current owner and I state everything he has done is crap. You will have to point to my post where I actually say that.
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Can't see how Lerner could have done much more to be fair, I think he's been brilliant for us in every manner. The situation we're currently in is largely caused by MON signing average players on large contracts, only to not play them. Our top players have been poached by bigger, richer sides - that's just reality for a club of our stature, all of those players were offered new contracts to tempt them to stay but they all chose to leave, whether for CL football, money or both.
The PR gaffes were pretty much all Houllier running his mouth (Liverpool comment, team belongs 7-12th etc). The appointment of McLeish is IMO a good one and Randy was right to not let fan pressure put him off appointing the man he felt was best for the job. McLeish's achievements in the game dwarf those of the other candidates we were strongly linked with (Hughes, Moyes, Martinez, Jol, McClaren etc.).
There's a lot that has gone wrong over the last few years, but I can't think of anything that you could directly attribute to Lerner.
What we can do however is directly give him credit for many of the things that have gone very right over the last few years:
- Massive investment in the squad
- Direct communication with the fans via General Krulak, to my knowledge the ONLY top flight team in any of the major leagues to do this
- Massive investment in the training facilities and academy
- Involving the fans in designing the new badge
- Giving a lot back to the local community, especially in the form of charity work
- Doing everything in his power to enable the manager in charge
Can't fault Lerner at all.
edit: And I don't think his goals have changed. I think he still wants to get the club to the very top, but thanks to a combination of the huge amount of money wasted by MON and the inflation in transfer fees since Man City came along it's no longer financially viable to buy our way in. I think he'll have to turn to a longer term, more financially viable method and I'd like to see his focus switch to building the academy and scouting system so it rivals the absolute best in the world. If we want to be competitive in the long run we need to be finding good players while they're young and cheap.
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It's amazing that it was only 6 months ago that everyone was thanking Randy for Darren Bent.
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Lerner's shit. He's done nothing for us. I always said so, I just kept quiet about it for 4 1/2 years. He should sell up now to a consortium of Arab billionaires. There's bound to be one waiting.
There you go - that'll save a few pages.
That's possibly one of your more petulant responses.
The reign is 5 years old, given the events of especially this summer, I think it is worth analysing its record.
Obviously you dont believe what you write is correct, but I am fairly certain you do not think RAL have been perfect either in their stewardship so why not give us the good and bad points, assuming you want to contribute any further to this debate, if not fair enough.
Really? Well it's one of your more tedious threads so that makes us even.
We're having this debate just about everywhere now, and it's getting a bit boring. Randy does what we want him to do for four years - Randy's great. Randy does something unpopular - he's crap and he always has been, everything the club does now is wrong.
I start a thread about an analysis of the 5 year stewardship of the club under the current owner and I state everything he has done is crap. You will have to point to my post where I actually say that.
I didn't say you had. I said that's what is being said and that this is another pointless thread about the board. Perhaps if it were anywhere near the fifth anniversary of their arrival it might have been worth opening.
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If the bent signing was made with the anticipated cash for young then it will not be easy to improve the squad with very limited money- it would explain why the likes of ancelotti and Benitez were not interested if reports are to be believed.
The days of aiming for and competing foe champions league football have passed us by , but I hoped we could compete for top 6 and Europe- however if our finances are not there as kendrick suggests then it may well be top 10 ambitions?
Without spending decent amounts the likes of Sunderland and Newcastle will overtake us and we have to accept that no manager will get us where we want to be on a few million to spend, time to reassess our expectations I sadly feel.
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It's amazing that it was only 6 months ago that everyone was thanking Randy for Darren Bent.
So we should just keep thanking him because he bought a player.
I do a good job at work results wise one month and receive praise, I do a shit job results wise the next and I am rightly questioned on what happened. This is the same.
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I think it's a valid time to assess RL's reign. If you find it boring perhaps you could just ignore it?
He's done very well on the heritage and facilities upgrades fronts, but for me he's been a massive disappointment regarding the football side. Yes he's provided funds, and I applaud him for that. But he's allowed too much of them to be spunked away too easily, and with it probably the best, and possibly last, opportunity the club had to break into the big time. I expected us to be in much better shape after 5 years. The recruitment of the last two managers show he and his team lack the genuine football nous to run a PL club and his handling of the media is really dismal.
But hey, he's way better than Doug and better than most other chairmen and owners (see Venkeys, Ashton, Young, the dildo peddlers Hicks and Gillett etc.) But you don't have to be that good to be better than that lot. Disappointing but could have been a lot worse.
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Pedantic note: It's RDL as his name is Randolph (Randy) D. Lerner. RAL is Reform Acquisitions Ltd, the company set up to launch the initial bid.
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I suppose a fair summary would be 'long on promise, short on achievement'. I've lost count of the times I've heard people on here say 'one or two players and we're not far short of being a very good side'. To be still saying that after 5 years (and in fact it's probably more than one or two now) shows that we've failed to really take things to the next level.
Previously we were a decent upper mid-table side that occasionally got into the UEFA Cup and had the odd cup run. Which is basically what we are now. Lerner has done well in his off-the-field endeavours but where things really count, on the pitch, we've not made any significant or, seemingly, lasting progress.
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Is it his fault though that he backed mons judgement on players? The chairman has to back his manager and if money was wasted on many signings then it seems unfair to blame randy for that- at least he gave his manager the money to spend.
I think the big problem was the lack of an experienced football CEO and i feel there is not enough football experience on the board- sir Graham, big Ron or even GED would have been useful members to provide an input.
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It's amazing that it was only 6 months ago that everyone was thanking Randy for Darren Bent.
So we should just keep thanking him because he bought a player
There's not much i can say to a ridiculous reply like that, so i won't bother.
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To his credit Randy gave it his best shot, but his investment was placed in the hands of the wrong manager and the plan failed. Now we have to adjust to being happy with Premier League survival, and the occasional cup run if we're lucky, lest we 'do a Leeds'. We may still yet 'do a Leeds' if we do not sturdy ourselves and pull in the same direction for the grind ahead. Appointing a manager with a poor Premier League record from our most hated rivals will do little to unite fans in backing the 'new Villa'* especially in such a precarious transitional season.
*Some might say this amounts to the same as the old Villa.
£80m invested in the squad over five years isn't enough, regardless of who the manager was/is. There was no reason to assume we could have a top four team based on that level of investment and we did extremely well to get as close as we did.
Extremely well? Nah. MON did the least that what was expected really given the backing and his reputation.
I can't think of many teams that finished below us having outspent us between 2008-'10 (bar maybe Rafa's last fuck-up season and Spurs when Redknapp came after Ramos's disastrous start to 08/09).
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Maybe Genting will buy him out if the sponsorship goes well.
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I've lost count of the times I've heard people on here say 'one or two players and we're not far short of being a very good side'. To be still saying that after 5 years (and in fact it's probably more than one or two now) shows that we've failed to really take things to the next level.
That's the managers fault! And if Randy hadn't backed him he woulda been slaughtered for it. The significant thing I think is that under Doug someone like Heskey or Harewood wouldn't have been regarded as a bad signing. Under RL it was regarded as awful
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Lerner's shit. He's done nothing for us. I always said so, I just kept quiet about it for 4 1/2 years. He should sell up now to a consortium of Arab billionaires. There's bound to be one waiting.
There you go - that'll save a few pages.
Grow up.
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Lerner's shit. He's done nothing for us. I always said so, I just kept quiet about it for 4 1/2 years. He should sell up now to a consortium of Arab billionaires. There's bound to be one waiting.
There you go - that'll save a few pages.
Grow up.
Which is exactly what Dave would have wrote had somebody posted what he did.
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I've lost count of the times I've heard people on here say 'one or two players and we're not far short of being a very good side'. To be still saying that after 5 years (and in fact it's probably more than one or two now) shows that we've failed to really take things to the next level.
As things stand at the moment we're one or two players short of a side, full stop. But I take the point.
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Lerner's shit. He's done nothing for us. I always said so, I just kept quiet about it for 4 1/2 years. He should sell up now to a consortium of Arab billionaires. There's bound to be one waiting.
There you go - that'll save a few pages.
Grow up.
That's rich coming from you.
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Fans might as well get used to the fact that without a few hundred million we aren't going to be anything more than the bridesmaids bridesmaid (ie 5th or 6th in the league). Lerner hasn't got that kind of dow to throw in. His good points FAR outweigh this fact though so I think that;s why, and I'm not directly talking about any single poster here, it seems a bit rich (forgive the pun) or petulant to me to criticise him for not being rich enough. If there is a multi billionaire waiting out there and they threw Man City levels of cash at it, people would still moan that we weren't doing it 'the right way' or something similar.
We are what we are - upper mid table club with an outside shot at a cup. I honestly can't remember it being any different. It's frustrating but what can you do?
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He's done some good things, he's invested a lot of money in us, there's no getyng way from that.
However, for the last twelve months the management of the club has been hopeless. Events prior to and after Houllier's appointment were amateurish, but the process we have just been through was farcical and unprofessional on a number of levels.
At the end of last season, we just needed a lift to get back to where we were before last year - make a decent managerial appointment, get the spirits up again, get the positivity back, and reclaim the momentum after a tricky season.
Instead, we have done the complete opposite, made an appointment guaranteed to divide, and add gloom, not lift it, and are in the process of selling our best players yet again.
It isn't Randy's financial commitment I would question above all else, it s the way he is allowing the club to be managed. Throwing money at it is one thing, but look at the enormous sums we have spunked away. How much have we spent on getting rid of, and acquiring new managers in the last few weeks, for example? And for what end result?
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I suppose a fair summary would be 'long on promise, short on achievement'. I've lost count of the times I've heard people on here say 'one or two players and we're not far short of being a very good side'. To be still saying that after 5 years (and in fact it's probably more than one or two now) shows that we've failed to really take things to the next level.
Previously we were a decent upper mid-table side that occasionally got into the UEFA Cup and had the odd cup run. Which is basically what we are now. Lerner has done well in his off-the-field endeavours but where things really count, on the pitch, we've not made any significant or, seemingly, lasting progress.
RAL's ownership is what I am analysing - not just Mr Lerner.
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He's done some good things, he's invested a lot of money in us, there's no getyng way from that.
However, for the last twelve months the management of the club has been hopeless. Events prior to and after Houllier's appointment were amateurish, but the process we have just been through was farcical and unprofessional on a number of levels.
At the end of last season, we just needed a lift to get back to where we were before last year - make a decent managerial appointment, get the spirits up again, get the positivity back, and reclaim the momentum after a tricky season.
Instead, we have done the complete opposite, made an appointment guaranteed to divide, and add gloom, not lift it, and are in the process of selling our best players yet again.
It isn't Randy's financial commitment I would question above all else, it s the way he is allowing the club to be managed.
As usual, talking a lot of sense.
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I can't help thinking that things would have looked a lot different if Steve Stride was still here.
I'm pretty sure the PR gaffes would have been kept to a minimum.
I still think the McLeish appointment, to an extent, was a flexing of the muscles scenario.
A way of saying to the supporters 'Get back in your box'*
* Which is what I dare say McLeish will be screaming from the touchline all next season.
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I suppose a fair summary would be 'long on promise, short on achievement'. I've lost count of the times I've heard people on here say 'one or two players and we're not far short of being a very good side'. To be still saying that after 5 years (and in fact it's probably more than one or two now) shows that we've failed to really take things to the next level.
Previously we were a decent upper mid-table side that occasionally got into the UEFA Cup and had the odd cup run. Which is basically what we are now. Lerner has done well in his off-the-field endeavours but where things really count, on the pitch, we've not made any significant or, seemingly, lasting progress.
RAL's ownership is what I am analysing - not just Mr Lerner.
Wrong quote - meant to quote Lee's post.
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Thanks for the clarification.
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I can't help thinking that things would have looked a lot different if Steve Stride was still here.
I'm pretty sure the PR gaffes would have been kept to a minimum.
I still think the McLeish appointment, to an extent, was a flexing of the muscles scenario.
A way of saying to the supporters 'Get back in your box'*
* Which is what I dare say McLeish will be screaming from the touchline all next season.
I was about to post if anyone seriously thinks the Stride 'resignation' has been for the benefit of the club but thought I might be ridiculed. Especially compared to this serial buffooner we currently have in his position. He looks like he has just left fuckin school for an apprenticeship.
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I can't help thinking that things would have looked a lot different if Steve Stride was still here.
I'm pretty sure the PR gaffes would have been kept to a minimum.
I still think the McLeish appointment, to an extent, was a flexing of the muscles scenario.
A way of saying to the supporters 'Get back in your box'*
* Which is what I dare say McLeish will be screaming from the touchline all next season.
I was about to post if anyone seriously thinks the Stride 'resignation' has been for the benefit of the club but thought I might be ridiculed. Especially compared to this serial buffooner we currently have in his position. He looks like he has just left fuckin school for an apprenticeship.
I don't think anyone would ridicule pointing out that Steve's been missd - certainly no-one's been so historically revised in the history of the club. From Ellis yes-man to adminisrative genius without doing anything. Nobody's really in his position now though - club secretary was a more important role when he had it.
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Steve Stride left because he felt his job had run its course.
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I can't help thinking that things would have looked a lot different if Steve Stride was still here.
I'm pretty sure the PR gaffes would have been kept to a minimum.
I still think the McLeish appointment, to an extent, was a flexing of the muscles scenario.
A way of saying to the supporters 'Get back in your box'*
* Which is what I dare say McLeish will be screaming from the touchline all next season.
I was about to post if anyone seriously thinks the Stride 'resignation' has been for the benefit of the club but thought I might be ridiculed. Especially compared to this serial buffooner we currently have in his position. He looks like he has just left fuckin school for an apprenticeship.
Stride did a good job under what must have been a difficult and frustrating boss, Herbert.
It was strange that with all his knowledge and experience he was allowed to leave and he could have done an excellent job working for a more 'free rein' boss in Lerner.
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I can't help thinking that things would have looked a lot different if Steve Stride was still here.
I'm pretty sure the PR gaffes would have been kept to a minimum.
I still think the McLeish appointment, to an extent, was a flexing of the muscles scenario.
A way of saying to the supporters 'Get back in your box'*
* Which is what I dare say McLeish will be screaming from the touchline all next season.
I was about to post if anyone seriously thinks the Stride 'resignation' has been for the benefit of the club but thought I might be ridiculed. Especially compared to this serial buffooner we currently have in his position. He looks like he has just left fuckin school for an apprenticeship.
I don't think anyone's been as historically revised in the history of the club as Steve. From Ellis yes-man to adminisrative genius without doing anything. He's certainly been missed, although nobody's really in his position now - club secretary was a more important role when he had it.
I can't speak for anybody else, but I certainly never saw him as a yes man, he was responsible for Gregory coming to the club, it was his idea, at a time when we were in the shit.
He was also brilliant at ensuring the smooth running of any incoming transfers.
A nice bloke to boot.
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Steve Stride left because he felt his job had run its course.
I'm sure Mr Lerner sir could have persuaded him otherwise.
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I don't think he could have. I'll dig out my interview notes.
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I can't help thinking that things would have looked a lot different if Steve Stride was still here.
I'm pretty sure the PR gaffes would have been kept to a minimum.
I still think the McLeish appointment, to an extent, was a flexing of the muscles scenario.
A way of saying to the supporters 'Get back in your box'*
* Which is what I dare say McLeish will be screaming from the touchline all next season.
I was about to post if anyone seriously thinks the Stride 'resignation' has been for the benefit of the club but thought I might be ridiculed. Especially compared to this serial buffooner we currently have in his position. He looks like he has just left fuckin school for an apprenticeship.
I don't think anyone would ridicule pointing out that Steve's been missd - certainly no-one's been so historically revised in the history of the club. From Ellis yes-man to adminisrative genius without doing anything. Nobody's really in his position now though - club secretary was a more important role when he had it.
I think many regarded him as a talented and respected administrator before his annoying boss left.
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I still think the McLeish appointment, to an extent, was a flexing of the muscles scenario.
A way of saying to the supporters 'Get back in your box'*
Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face.
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I still think the McLeish appointment, to an extent, was a flexing of the muscles scenario.
A way of saying to the supporters 'Get back in your box'*
Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face.
Don't get me wrong, I think the board rate him.
But my feeling is that there was a certain amount of 'We'll give you something to moan about' in the appointment.
They were well aware of the ill feeling towards McLaren and Martinez, the McLeish appointment was off the scale.
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I wonder if a great part of the problem was that we went from having a controlling, "I run things" style manager which masked the naivety of the rest of the upper management f the club, to a situation where we have a combination of an incredibly inexperienced CEO who looks way out of his depth, a chairman who is 3000 miles away most of the time, and a management team with zero football knowledge.
I think O'Neill was given too much power but can see how it was convenient at the time. When he walked out, we were left exposed.
I can understand a certain degree of flux and uncertainty after he went, but what i can't understand is that we don't seem to have learned anything from his time here or in the twelve months since, and that I have no sympathy for.
When Houllier left, I was sure of two things. Firstly that in getting shot of him do quickly, and having had two months notice of this, they would have been working on something impressive in terms of a succession. Secondly, that having been through one appointment process in very trying circumstances, tji time we would benefit from the lessons learned.
What transpired was that they didn't seem to have given the replacement process any thought, and that they actually managed to create a shoddier state of affairs than the previous time.
I would never have believed that possible.
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Lerner's shit. He's done nothing for us. I always said so, I just kept quiet about it for 4 1/2 years. He should sell up now to a consortium of Arab billionaires. There's bound to be one waiting.
There you go - that'll save a few pages.
Grow up.
That's rich coming from you.
Why are you quite so keen that the board's record isn't debated? Why is this thread "pointless"?
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It's a valid thread, if people don't like them then H & V isn't the place to be for the forseeable future as there will be a hell of a lot more debates on the boards ineptness.
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Wasn't Steve Stride also on the panel that voted in favour of Wimbledon becoming MK Dons?
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Yes, he was. There was a three-man committee set up.
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Lerner's shit. He's done nothing for us. I always said so, I just kept quiet about it for 4 1/2 years. He should sell up now to a consortium of Arab billionaires. There's bound to be one waiting.
There you go - that'll save a few pages.
Grow up.
That's rich coming from you.
Why are you quite so keen that the board's record isn't debated? Why is this thread "pointless"?
Because it's bring debated on just about every thread.
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Wasn't Steve Stride also on the panel that voted in favour of Wimbledon becoming MK Dons?
Atilla the stockbroker had a go at him about it at the H&V 20th bash.
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Wasn't Steve Stride also on the panel that voted in favour of Wimbledon becoming MK Dons?
Atilla the stockbroker had a go at him about it at the H&V 20th bash.
Thanks for reminding me. I'd never heard Steve swear before.
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I missed that. What happened?
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I missed that. What happened?
Atilla moaned at him, going into Commie man of the people mode about Wimbledon. Steve said to me 'Who was that c***?'
Bit of a jolt that, I was trying to sell raffle tickets at the time.
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Thanks. I enjoyed that night.
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Randy has undoubtedly spent a lot of his own money on Villa and it was close to being enough to get us into the champions league, but if we had, the level of investment would never have been enough to make it anymore than a one season wonder.
That however was then and things have moved on to the extent that even if Randy had been prepared to sustain his spending it would never be enough now.
For example if you compare our spending from 07 to 09 it's nothing to what Liverpool are spending now in there attempt to get back to the promised land.
Accordingly you can hardly blame Randy for giving up in light of the huge spending power of the competion.
However understandable or not, the fact remains that we aren't going to see any significant success under the current regime.
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He bought the club for £62.6m which was very cheap at the time I thought. At today's prices it would be worth well over £200m. His investment in facilities has probably been around £50m (being generous), so it depends on what the net outlay elsewhere has been. But I think he will recoup his investment when he does eventually go. I thought he was the billionaire owner of a credit card company. He was listed as the 224th richest American. In a country with a 300m population that is impressive. I can't believe there isn't sufficient money there to continue to invest in players.
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He's done some good things, he's invested a lot of money in us, there's no getyng way from that.
However, for the last twelve months the management of the club has been hopeless. Events prior to and after Houllier's appointment were amateurish, but the process we have just been through was farcical and unprofessional on a number of levels.
At the end of last season, we just needed a lift to get back to where we were before last year - make a decent managerial appointment, get the spirits up again, get the positivity back, and reclaim the momentum after a tricky season.
Instead, we have done the complete opposite, made an appointment guaranteed to divide, and add gloom, not lift it, and are in the process of selling our best players yet again.
It isn't Randy's financial commitment I would question above all else, it s the way he is allowing the club to be managed. Throwing money at it is one thing, but look at the enormous sums we have spunked away. How much have we spent on getting rid of, and acquiring new managers in the last few weeks, for example? And for what end result?
Isn't most of the money Randy has put into the club been in the form of loans? Which we are repaying plus interest (Daddy Lerner would be proud), I don't believe Randy's tenure has been one long grand philanthropic gesture. He's not moved us on from where we were under Doug. We still can't compete. The last 12 months has been a complete dogs breakfast.
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I suppose it could have been a lot worse...............I remember this guy talking about Broadband like it was some new invention he had come up with.
Aston Villa fan Michael Neville is still hopeful he can lead a takeover of the club, despite the £64m bid hitting a stumbling block over transfer funds.
Villa chairman Doug Ellis wants assurances the bid, made with property developers Luke and Brian Comer, will provide funding for new players.
Neville said: "Things are going on and I am optimistic about it but it could take a while.
"We have a plan to generate cash but it is taking a bit of time."
Neville has been in negotiations with Ellis since September and has said he aims to take the former European Cup winners into the Champions League in three years.
And he said he is prepared to be patient to ensure a deal can be thrashed out as he continues negotiations with financial group Rothschild, which is representing the club.
He said: "I know the process involved and it is not a five-minute thing.
"Although I am not privy to everything at the club, I do not believe there is any other interest.
"It will take a bit of time but we are working on it at the moment and remain optimistic. We would still love to take the club over."
Ellis has been chairman at Villa Park since 1982 and currently owns a 39% share in the club, with access to another 12%.
The bid will buy his shares and those of the other main shareholder, former Watford chairman Jack Petchey.
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Randy has done a good job since he has come to Villa he has backed managers with money MON wasted it and there lies the problem but I still say he is right for us.
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Curious to know just how much RL has spent on players and how much has been recouped in players moving on and what the net is. How that looks spread across the time he's been in charge and again how that compares with say the average mid-table Premiership side.
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Randy has done a good job since he has come to Villa he has backed managers with money MON wasted it and there lies the problem but I still say he is right for us.
So do I, Darren. But, from having read some of the comments being flung around on a number of other threads (as well as this one), it would appear that 'liking the Board' is 'so very 2008'. Still, who gives a kipper's dick about appearing fashionable. Not me, that's for sure :)
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They haven't realised their ambitions, the Premier League has moved on and Lerner doesn't have the money or the nous to keep up with the pace.
I assume you've told him that to his face, Risso?
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Christ if you think back to some of the chancers we had linked with bids when Doug was leaving you realise how much worse things could have been.
Ray Ranson **Shudders**
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Randy has done a good job since he has come to Villa he has backed managers with money MON wasted it and there lies the problem but I still say he is right for us.
So do I, Darren. But, from having read some of the comments being flung around on a number of other threads (as well as this one), it would appear that 'liking the Board' is 'so very 2008'. Still, who gives a kipper's dick about appearing fashionable. Not me, that's for sure :)
It's not about liking the board though is it. I like Pork Chops and chips but I wouldn't trust them to handle my vast share portfolio.
These are business people at the end of the day and it's about the way they handle what is a very PR driven business. I think they have done some very good things but I personally believe that this is the summer where a true disconnect between the fans and the board has emerged primarily due to the quite ludicrous appointment of a manager who has been rewarded for failing in his job with another job with a higher placed club.
Apart from the PR statement to do with Premier League experience, shared vision etc, there has been no credible explanation for the appointment and this coupled with the farcical way (trust me and not being disrespectful you had to be in Birmingham and the surrounding areas to understand how farcical) the recruitment process was handled. In addition, with the meek and mild way we appear to going about doing business lately on transfers, money etc means that for the first time the stewardship of the club is being thoroughly examined.
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He has pumped a shit load of cash into the club,a lot on players,its a shame that quite a lot of it was wasted on average players. Maybe his biggest mistake was letting M'ON have too much power but at the time it did seem right,even if the 10 million spent on like of Harewood and Knight did seem odd.
I may be old fashioned,but id prefer a Randy to an arab who can bankroll us,and spend money at will,pushing transfer fees and wages sky high,and little by little selling the soul of the club,breeding a new type of fan who wants it all now,at all costs.
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I don't think the right question is whether Randy has invested enough, but why the club doesn't seem to be particularly well-run. Maybe the problem isn't that MON had too much power, but that we were overly reliant on him. His leaving seems to have exposed a few flaws in how the club works.
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Randy has undoubtedly spent a lot of his own money on Villa and it was close to being enough to get us into the champions league, but if we had, the level of investment would never have been enough to make it anymore than a one season wonder.
That however was then and things have moved on to the extent that even if Randy had been prepared to sustain his spending it would never be enough now.
For example if you compare our spending from 07 to 09 it's nothing to what Liverpool are spending now in there attempt to get back to the promised land.
Accordingly you can hardly blame Randy for giving up in light of the huge spending power of the competion.
However understandable or not, the fact remains that we aren't going to see any significant success under the current regime.
When bemoaning the lack of spending of the last couple of years and assuming Mr Learner has run out of funds or lost the will to spend, it may be worth remembering that we had no manager last 'close season' so couldn't buy anyone. The best bit of business was done in the January window with the 'amazing' big spend on Bent and another £6m on Makoun. So far we havn't had a manager this close season. ( McLeish has had what, a week to sign how many players exactly ? ) I think the owners have done everything they could to run Villa properly. The funds will be provided to get a new keeper and one or two other players but times are a changing. It is now more than ever about bringing through youth players rather than buying superstars. Villa lose their best player each year because we are not in the Champions League. Downing will go next year and Bent will go the year after that. Villa have to produce young players to take their places and hopefully have them on long contracts for lower wages than the current 'stars' are on.
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I don't think the right question is whether Randy has invested enough, but why the club doesn't seem to be particularly well-run. Maybe the problem isn't that MON had too much power, but that we were overly reliant on him. His leaving seems to have exposed a few flaws in how the club works.
Spot on and is my biggest concern moving forwards. I actually think Houllier, in the longer term would have been a superb appointment as he completely restructured the football side of the club after dinosaur O'Neill, and why I've a few concerns with McLeish. Randy's biggest issue for me moving forwads is gettinga better performance from Faulkner on the commercial and matchday income side. Its improved over the last 5 years but not half as rapidly as our competition and thats whats going to start holding us back as we go through the next few years. The Genting deal, if it is £8m a year is a good start, but we need more lucrative commercial sponsorships to progress further.
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One thing's for sure, if HDE was still here we'd probably be floundering around in the champioship now with 'Ex-Villan' Simon Stainrod as manager and signing players from Preston.
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They haven't realised their ambitions, the Premier League has moved on and Lerner doesn't have the money or the nous to keep up with the pace.
I assume you've told him that to his face, Risso?
I'm sure he hasn't Rog. In my opinion Risso's position on the board is as misplaced as those who insist they're not to be questioned or that they've done nothing wrong. They are both extremes and neither tell the full story. The truth is somewhere in the middle, and my take is that they've done far more good than bad.
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One thing's for sure, if HDE was still here we'd probably be floundering around in the champioship now with 'Ex-Villan' Simon Stainrod as manager and signing players from Preston.
Would we ? Another case of let's knock Doug.
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Lerners crap and has been from day one. So was Doug and for that matter Bendalls, Dugdale, Mackay, Kartz, Jim Hartley, Alan Smith, Norman Smith, Normansells, and every bloody shareholder even if you bought just one lets face it you only got it for the season ticket discount and so you could frame the certificate put it on your wall and once a year go to an AGM and spout some crap at the directors through a microphome while Doug laughed and sneered at you. Well if you had just one share your culpable for all the mess we are all in, yes you! being part of the rotten bloody system! Rinder and Mcgregor were the thin end of the wedge, I said it would all end in tears.
We demand a socialist fans collective, the club run by the fans for the fans with all decisons reached by committees democratically elected by the fans with a full and equal distribution of tickets, merchandise according to each fans need.
FREEDOM FOR ASTON ! POWER TO THE PEOPLE !
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43003000/jpg/_43003851_smith_203.jpg)
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Lerners crap and has been from day one. So was Doug and for that matter Bendalls, Dugdale, Mackay, Kartz, Jim Hartley, Alan Smith, Norman Smith, Normansells, and every bloody shareholder even if you bought just one lets face it you only got it for the season ticket discount and so you could frame the certificate put it on your wall and once a year go to an AGM and spout some crap at the directors through a microphome while Doug laughed and sneered at you. Well if you had just one share your culpable for all the mess we are all in, yes you! being part of the rotten bloody system! Rinder and Mcgregor were the thin end of the wedge, I said it would all end in tears.
We demand a socialist fans collective, the club run by the fans for the fans with all decisons reached by committees democratically elected by the fans with a full and equal distribution of tickets, merchandise according to each fans need.
FREEDOM FOR ASTON ! POWER TO THE PEOPLE !
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43003000/jpg/_43003851_smith_203.jpg)
All those who agree say Fulham. (All) Fulham ? Carried unanimously.
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They haven't realised their ambitions, the Premier League has moved on and Lerner doesn't have the money or the nous to keep up with the pace.
I assume you've told him that to his face, Risso?
I'm sure he hasn't Rog. In my opinion Risso's position on the board is as misplaced as those who insist they're not to be questioned or that they've done nothing wrong. They are both extremes and neither tell the full story. The truth is somewhere in the middle, and my take is that they've done far more good than bad.
"Told him that to his face"? What on earth is that supposed to mean?
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I'm not sure anyone is claiming Stride was an administrative genius. He wouldn't have to be to be better than Faulkner and co. Mere competence, a basic knowledge of English football, an ability to learn from mistakes and knowing the difference between his arse and his elbow would have been enough for him to be missed. As usual Paulie is on the money, for all RL's good intentions, the club has been run appallingly badly for at least the last 12 months. Brown's fans seem to have a similar, but longer, version of the same story. Basically RL means well, but does not seem to be very good at running sporting institutions.
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The real problem with the managerial process was this insistence on Premier League experience. This seems to have been a priority prized so highly it trumped things like style of football, a track record of bringing through youngsters, even success. It seems to me that Randy would have been getting advice from people who would feed him cliched non-information, perhaps saying things like 'safe pair of hands' and 'steady the ship' - forgetting that, in football, staying still is going backwards - and this PL experience card has landed us with a manager who, although he has no style of football to speak of and no track record with youngsters (surely crucial to our strategy), does have literal experience of managing - and getting relegated twice - from the Premier League. I desperately want him to succeed, but it's hard to see past the idea that Randy has done the manager equivalent of a MON signing - steady-eddy, unspectacular British bog-standard who has a definite limit on how far he can take us.
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I remember in the early days of the takeover thinking the sky's the limit. There was talk of links with IMG. It was all a bit giddy and, truth be told, I felt a bit anxious about it.
But then I read, probably on here so it's probably bollocks, that Randy's wealth was less than that of Gold and Sullivan, which put things into perspective for me and I've lowered my expectations since then.
I like him, and on balance I'm still pleased we've got him, but he's not rich or stupid enough to fund / invest / whatever much more than he has.
I'd be surprised if he's here for another five years.
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Is there anyone on earth that can meet and/or live up to the expectations of some of our number?
The manager has been backed – be it MON or GH. Is it the owner’s fault that a lot of money was wasted paying high salaries to players that, after an initial run in the 1st team, were rarely picked?
Was the board wrong to question MON about getting rid of some of these players before handing more cash to spend – if that indeed was the cause of him throwing his toys out of the pram?
The board have always tried to do things the right way – approaching players and managers through official channels rather than dropping loaded hints to the media a la Harry Redknap et al. How many people saw the Darren Bent deal coming until the day the deal was done?
Of course the media don’t like this, so when the search for a new manager began they speculate for all they’re worth, jumping from one managerial target to the next which makes it sound, if you choose to believe them, as if the board are indeed indecisive and/or clueless - which they may have been, but I doubt they were as much as some people here believe. For example, the only reason anyone knew about Martinez was because, for his own reasons, Wigan’s chairman made it public.
Whilst I’m not overly thrilled about our new manager, the board have obviously seen something they like. In his defence it was only the 2nd time this century that a club was relegated with 39 or more points and the injury disruption to SHA’s defence was a major contributory factor. Accepted that his team’s attacking style was limited – but was that the manager’s philosophy or doing the best with what the club could afford? As a Scot, I thought Scotland certainly played well when he was manager. [The domination of Rangers and Celtic in the SPL make it difficult to draw conclusions from his time there.] The attacking players here certainly give him many more options – lets see what he does with them. One thing is for sure, we certainly need to see a better defence next season if we are to avoid another struggle to keep away from the lower reaches of the table.
So, for me, RAL haven’t been perfect but still very good. I would rather have them than the Arab(s) at Man City or even interfering Abramovich at Chelsea – and if UEFA ever get serious about their Financial Fair Play policy then we are in a better position than both of them.
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when barca wanted to sign cruyff in the 70's the had a vote whether to add 25% of their season ticket price and 90% of them voted yes!
We are about the 7th best attended club, pay about the 7th best amount in wages, 7th or less expensive club in the prem etc...
would we all put up with £800 or £900 per year to gain that chance of winning the prem.
economics tell me we bat at around the right position!
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So, for me, RAL haven’t been perfect but still very good. I would rather have them than the Arab(s) at Man City or even interfering Abramovich at Chelsea – and if UEFA ever get serious about their Financial Fair Play policy then we are in a better position than both of them.
That's the faintest "on the bright side" argument I've ever heard.
UEFAs fair play rules, in as much as they actually 'apply' to anyone given that they will be worked around easily, only apply to clubs taking part in Europen competition, which by the looks of it, isn't going to be us for a while.
Do you think people at Chelsea or Man City are currently thinking "I wish we were being more circumspect about this fair play thing, like Villa are"?
Of course they aren't. Right now, saying we will be in a better position than they will holds about as much relevance as saying Albion will, or Wigan will - ie none.
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So, for me, RAL haven’t been perfect but still very good. I would rather have them than the Arab(s) at Man City or even interfering Abramovich at Chelsea – and if UEFA ever get serious about their Financial Fair Play policy then we are in a better position than both of them.
That's the faintest "on the bright side" argument I've ever heard.
UEFAs fair play rules, in as much as they actually 'apply' to anyone given that they will be worked around easily, only apply to clubs taking part in Europen competition, which by the looks of it, isn't going to be us for a while.
Do you think people at Chelsea or Man City are currently thinking "I wish we were being more circumspect about this fair play thing, like Villa are"?
Of course they aren't. Right now, saying we will be in a better position than they will holds about as much relevance as saying Albion will, or Wigan will - ie none.
We can't all live in cloud cuckoo land - but enjoy trying
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The financial fair play rules has a massive get out clause that mean that the big clubs such as City and United will easily avoid falling foul of them. Clubs will not be excluded from Europe is they make losses but those losses are generally improving, and if the losses are caused by players' wages who were contracted before the rules kicked in. So all the European giants have had to do is spend loads on players and those wages will be excluded from the calculations. Anybody who seriously thinks that Randy's cutbacks are anything to do with Europe is fooling themselves unfortunately. It's just the 2011 version of Ellis "waiting for the bubble to burst". Ain't going to happen, we've just missed the boat, again.
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The financial fair play rules was a minor add on to my comments.
(PS Man Utd aren’t under any threat from UEFA’s FFP - loop holes or not – because, unlike Chelsea and Man City their wage bill doesn’t exceed their income.)
Unfortunately too many people on this site believe that we somehow have almost a divine right to be at the top of the tree and in 4 weeks have forgotten all the good that has happened since Doug sold out.
The boat was missed in the seasons before Man City got big spending owners and Tottenham went on their spending spree - it has not been missed by the recent events, nor do these flag up a major change in direction from our owner. When the opportunity was there, too much money was p****d against the wall by MON on players who, if they were ever good enough (and that’s questionable for quite a few of them), were then kept on the books at, and because of, excessive salaries and then not played. Although Randy is rich by any standards, he's not in the same league as Abramovich and Man City's arabs and more than 1 Tottenham director is as rich as he is; if his pockets aren’t bottomless then that’s the way it is. Any idea that, for the time being, we are going to be able to compete financially without mortgaging the club in the way the Glazers did to Man Utd are living in cloud cuckoo land - and welcome to it.
We have to understand where our owner ranks in terms of disposable money. The way the club is going to have to go if the future isn't to be mortgaged, is more the Arsenal route - bringing through talent and dealing carefully and astutely in the transfer market, although I'm sure that RL will find money when required as he did with Darren Bent. This will take time rather than be the “quick fix” we all hoped for when MON and RL joined us in 2006.
For some this represents “settling for mid-table mediocrity”; for others it’s understanding and accepting reality in an era where money, and how much you can spend, rules the game
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The financial fair play rules has a massive get out clause that mean that the big clubs such as City and United will easily avoid falling foul of them. Clubs will not be excluded from Europe is they make losses but those losses are generally improving, and if the losses are caused by players' wages who were contracted before the rules kicked in. So all the European giants have had to do is spend loads on players and those wages will be excluded from the calculations. Anybody who seriously thinks that Randy's cutbacks are anything to do with Europe is fooling themselves unfortunately. It's just the 2011 version of Ellis "waiting for the bubble to burst". Ain't going to happen, we've just missed the boat, again.
The financial fair play rules was a minor add on to my comments.
(PS Man Utd aren’t under any threat from UEFA’s FFP - loop holes or not – because, unlike Chelsea and Man City their wage bill doesn’t exceed their income.)
Unfortunately too many people on this site believe that we somehow have almost a divine right to be at the top of the tree and in 4 weeks have forgotten all the good that has happened since Doug sold out.
The boat was missed in the seasons before Man City got big spending owners and Tottenham went on their spending spree - it has not been missed by the recent events, nor do these flag up a major change in direction from our owner. When the opportunity was there, too much money was p****d against the wall by MON on players who, if they were ever good enough (and that’s questionable for quite a few of them), were then kept on the books at, and because of, excessive salaries and then not played. Although Randy is rich by any standards, he's not in the same league as Abramovich and Man City's arabs and more than 1 Tottenham director is as rich as he is; if his pockets aren’t bottomless then that’s the way it is. Any idea that, for the time being, we are going to be able to compete financially without mortgaging the club in the way the Glazers did to Man Utd are living in cloud cuckoo land - and welcome to it.
We have to understand where our owner ranks in terms of disposable money. The way the club is going to have to go if the future isn't to be mortgaged, is more the Arsenal route - bringing through talent and dealing carefully and astutely in the transfer market, although I'm sure that RL will find money when required as he did with Darren Bent. This will take time rather than be the “quick fix” we all hoped for when MON and RL joined us in 2006.
For some this represents “settling for mid-table mediocrity”; for others it’s understanding and accepting reality in an era where money, and how much you can spend, rules the game
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An excellent post mate.
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Absolutely correct NorthYvillan. However, my issue with the owner isn't the issue of spending, it's the suspicion drawn from two managerial appointments that he doesn't quite know what he's doing enough, or at best is surrounded by people he listens to who don't know what they're doing. The criteria for appointing a new manager reeked of a board of directors without a lot of nous.
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Also a good point.
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For some this represents “settling for mid-table mediocrity”; for others it’s understanding and accepting reality in an era where money, and how much you can spend, rules the game
It amounts to exactly the same thing though.
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Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if these points have already been made.
If this thread was started a year ago and called "RAL Takeover - 4 years in", then what would we have been thinking? That we had a brilliant chairman who was prepared to back his manager and had the best interests of the club at heart. So, how much has changed in the last 12 months?
IMO, not a lot. We've had a period of upheaval with MON leaving and then Houllier, but in that time he's still managed to sanction a deal that smashed our transfer record. His intent to get the wages under control would have been completely understood and the blame placed squarely at MON's door by the majority of fans.
So is Randy the chairman he was between 2006-2010 or a cost cutting penny pincher? Given the circumstances of the last 12-months and what he did before that, I think the very least he's earned is the benefit of the doubt.
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The thread has been turned into a debate about money - my intention was to debate his overall 5 year tenure, I have given him credit where it's due. The reason I picked on 5 years is twofold - one it is generall perceived as a useful time to assess someone's performance and two as I said previously this summer has seen the first real disconnect between board and fans.
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Absolutely correct NorthYvillan. However, my issue with the owner isn't the issue of spending, it's the suspicion drawn from two managerial appointments that he doesn't quite know what he's doing enough, or at best is surrounded by people he listens to who don't know what they're doing. The criteria for appointing a new manager reeked of a board of directors without a lot of nous.
Spot on, Monty.
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Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if these points have already been made.
If this thread was started a year ago and called "RAL Takeover - 4 years in", then what would we have been thinking? That we had a brilliant chairman who was prepared to back his manager and had the best interests of the club at heart. So, how much has changed in the last 12 months?
IMO, not a lot. We've had a period of upheaval with MON leaving and then Houllier, but in that time he's still managed to sanction a deal that smashed our transfer record. His intent to get the wages under control would have been completely understood and the blame placed squarely at MON's door by the majority of fans.
So is Randy the chairman he was between 2006-2010 or a cost cutting penny pincher? Given the circumstances of the last 12-months and what he did before that, I think the very least he's earned is the benefit of the doubt.
I was very happy 12 moths ago. I believed the board was serious about challenging for honours and was confident that they understood and were prepared for the level of investment needed to establish the club in the top six and push on for honours. I felt we were making very good progress and that the season that had just finished – 6th place, highest points total since the league was reduced to 20 teams, latter stages of Cups, equal lowest number of home defeats in a 100 years, fewer goals conceded than Arsenal and more than holding our own in the league against the Sky 4 teams – was the most productive and enjoyable season I had experienced for a very long time.
This progress was being achieved on what was a modest transfer outlay in PL terms and a wage bill that was at the bottom range for a top six PL team.
I had treated the vague comments about sell-to-buy as unsubstantiated rumour or deliberate obfuscation and I didn't pay them any real attention. That was until the Pelty outburst and the General's follow-up post 5 minutes later on the first day of pre-season training, where he confirmed that we needed to focus on reducing wages and needed to sell players. I admire the General’s capability as an accomplished correspondent, there was no doubt in my mind that he had said what he meant and meant what he said.
For someone like me who tries to have an understanding of PL finances and who had been supportive of the boards careful approach to investment (after an initial giddy expectation of David Villa type signings), it appeared to be an astonishing volta-face. I still to this day cannot reconcile what they have done with everything that went on during the first four years.
I can cope well enough with the reduced ambition but I no longer trust the board. At no stage have they invested enough money in the squad to entitle us to expect any better than we have had.
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I still to this day cannot reconcile what they have done with everything that went on during the first four years.
I can cope well enough with the reduced ambition but I no longer trust the board. At no stage have they invested enough money in the squad to entitle us to expect any better than we have had.
Sums up my feelings perfectly.
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Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if these points have already been made.
If this thread was started a year ago and called "RAL Takeover - 4 years in", then what would we have been thinking? That we had a brilliant chairman who was prepared to back his manager and had the best interests of the club at heart. So, how much has changed in the last 12 months?
IMO, not a lot. We've had a period of upheaval with MON leaving and then Houllier, but in that time he's still managed to sanction a deal that smashed our transfer record. His intent to get the wages under control would have been completely understood and the blame placed squarely at MON's door by the majority of fans.
So is Randy the chairman he was between 2006-2010 or a cost cutting penny pincher? Given the circumstances of the last 12-months and what he did before that, I think the very least he's earned is the benefit of the doubt.
I was very happy 12 moths ago. I believed the board was serious about challenging for honours and was confident that they understood and were prepared for the level of investment needed to establish the club in the top six and push on for honours. I felt we were making very good progress and that the season that had just finished – 6th place, highest points total since the league was reduced to 20 teams, latter stages of Cups, equal lowest number of home defeats in a 100 years, fewer goals conceded than Arsenal and more than holding our own in the league against the Sky 4 teams – was the most productive and enjoyable season I had experienced for a very long time.
This progress was being achieved on what was a modest transfer outlay in PL terms and a wage bill that was at the bottom range for a top six PL team.
I had treated the vague comments about sell-to-buy as unsubstantiated rumour or deliberate obfuscation and I didn't pay them any real attention. That was until the Pelty outburst and the General's follow-up post 5 minutes later on the first day of pre-season training, where he confirmed that we needed to focus on reducing wages and needed to sell players. I admire the General’s capability as an accomplished correspondent, there was no doubt in my mind that he had said what he meant and meant what he said.
For someone like me who tries to have an understanding of PL finances and who had been supportive of the boards careful approach to investment (after an initial giddy expectation of David Villa type signings), it appeared to be an astonishing volta-face. I still to this day cannot reconcile what they have done with everything that went on during the first four years.
I can cope well enough with the reduced ambition but I no longer trust the board. At no stage have they invested enough money in the squad to entitle us to expect any better than we have had.
I'd put one caveat on your excellent post Dawg. How the money was spent, or should I say squandered, on the squad means they have some mitigation. However, the level of oversight on MON in that period could best be described as arms length, and they deserve some criticism for that.
Overall, I'm happy with Randy and the board but as you say we desperately need some Football nous in there to assist the Football side of the club.
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They haven't realised their ambitions, the Premier League has moved on and Lerner doesn't have the money or the nous to keep up with the pace.
Totally agree. He should look for an investment partner to put money in which is desperately neede for transfers. If not, he should sell up. Trouble is, he never speaks to the fans about his intentions which is poor PR. The club is sliding backwards as it did under Deadly.
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If not, he should sell up.
I'm sure we'd find it just as easy to find a big money buyer as Everton have
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If not, he should sell up.
I'm sure we'd find it just as easy to find a big money buyer as Everton have
I know that's easier said than done, but the club are going nowhere under his leadership. Next season I predict a bottom half finish - a squence of: 6th, 6th, 6th, 9th and probably 12th. Just face it, we're in decline.
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I'll face it when there is more evidence, such as little transfer budget or AM clearly not able to manage properly
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A series of missed opportunities.
If there was ever a film made about our recent history from Doug Ellis to Randy Lerner, this would be the perfect tagline.
Aston Villa FC - A series of missed opportunities.
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The thing is what would we consider a success for RL after 5 years?
We watch comparitively cheap premier league footy in a good facility, but it could be argued that RL inherited most of that from Doug. Yes the ground's been spruced up,we have a great pub but prices have gone up year on year since Randy took over. The Acorn sponsorship was/is the most outstanding thing he has done so far, it really made me proud to be a fan.
On the pitch we have purchased some exciting young talent and have sold the two of the better ones on for profit without actually using their time with us by having a trophy winning team in any of the last 5 seasons. It could be said that the 3 6th place finishes showed a degree of success but then this was completely imo written off subsequently by not taking the European qualification reward seriously by fielding weakened teams. Our FA Cup team selected at Man City was a disgrace and will remain a blot on RL's tenure.
I will watch Aston Villa in whatever league they play in so from a personal point of view it makes no odds to me who is in charge of the team or who owns the club. To them this is just a passing interest or a job. My commitment is cradle to grave, and every year season tickets for me and my boys. All I want from owners is a respect for our traditions and don't mess with the colours !
So from my perspective the RL years have been about on a par with all the other non trophy winning seasons in my 40 odd years.
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If not, he should sell up.
I'm sure we'd find it just as easy to find a big money buyer as Everton have
I know that's easier said than done, but the club are going nowhere under his leadership. Next season I predict a bottom half finish - a squence of: 6th, 6th, 6th, 9th and probably 12th. Just face it, we're in decline.
Yeah that 12h placed finish in the 2011/12 season was a real low point.
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If not, he should sell up.
I'm sure we'd find it just as easy to find a big money buyer as Everton have
Indeed. Remember the bunch of chancers linked with a takeover last time round. Some people have a somewhat misguided belief that there is an Arab sheikh around every corner but their isn't. It is entirely possible we will end up with some hair dresser or chicken farmer who have no money.
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If not, he should sell up.
I'm sure we'd find it just as easy to find a big money buyer as Everton have
Indeed. Remember the bunch of chancers linked with a takeover last time round. Some people have a somewhat misguided belief that there is an Arab sheikh around every corner but their isn't. It is entirely possible we will end up with some hair dresser or chicken farmer who have no money.
I agree that he shouldn't just sell to anybody. However, he certainly should consider his ownership of the club no longer a sine qua non, whereas beforehand his being in charge was indisputable. If an offer were to, for some reason, come in from a reputable source, he should no longer dismiss it out of hand if the club is to progress.
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write to randy and ask him to charge us 75% minimum more than we are paying! Simple. then we may keep up with the rest.
Ask not what aston villa can do for us but what we can do for Aston Villa
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Just about every club in the Premier League has changed hands over the past ten years or so. Now, of all those owners, how many would you swap for Randy?
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Just about every club in the Premier League has changed hands over the past ten years or so. Now, of all those owners, how many would you swap for Randy?
I would not swap him because he has done a lot of excellent work since taking over.
The problem for me is the over riding feeling that we had a go, but once again we fell short and now we are back to just being happy with our lot and consolidating our premier league position.
Sometimes we flirt with the big boys and then others times we have a crisis season and come close to relegation, but mostly we are fair to middling!
Would have been nice if at some point we could get back on the gravy train and win some trophies.
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Mon out, get rid of houllier, dont dare appoint mclaren, if mcleish steps near us i will never walk in vp again. Now randy, you are shit, get a new owner!
Take a look at yourselves chaps.
i cannot wait to get back to my seat and ask all those idiots around me, are you happy now?
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Part of the problem is the combination of Randy not talking and the hapless manager search this summer. The appointment of Houllier was understandable because it seemed to be in line with a shift in strategy, from spending our way into top four to achieving our goals by nurturing our youngers and spotting foreign gems. But McLeish doesn't seem like a man capable of carrying out such a strategy, and anyway the manager search appeared to be a half-hearted walk from door to door with the board seemingly clueless as to what kind of manager they really wanted. Yes, Man City, Spurs etc have changed the terrain, but we don't seem to have drawn a new map. Hence the growing suspicion that Randy is happy to just "coast along".
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Just about every club in the Premier League has changed hands over the past ten years or so. Now, of all those owners, how many would you swap for Randy?
12 or 13 months ago, none; now, I'm not so sure - I'd need to see a list. Even Randy's most ardent supporters would surely concede that the last 12 months have been shambolic at times. I'm prepared to keep supporting him because I think he's a decent man but he definitely needs to raise his game. If the McLeish appointment doesn't work out, it's anyone's guess what will happen.
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Just about every club in the Premier League has changed hands over the past ten years or so. Now, of all those owners, how many would you swap for Randy?
12 or 13 months ago, none; now, I'm not so sure - I'd need to see a list. Even Randy's most ardent supporters would surely concede that the last 12 months have been shambolic at times. I'm prepared to keep supporting him because I think he's a decent man but he definitely needs to raise his game. If the McLeish appointment doesn't work out, it's anyone's guess what will happen.
Any use? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_football_club_owners)
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Any use? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_football_club_owners)
Sir Chips Keswick at Arsenal sounds great. I imagine him to be like Terry-Thomas.
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Of the ones running the larger, higher profile PL clubs, there aren't many, if any that haven't had their own difficulties in the past 5 years. Naturally we keep a keen interest over what happens at our club, but during those same 5 years, while we have had our bumps, it's fair to say so have the others. It's a shame that West Ham and Blues are no longer in the PL because that would make Randy seem even more favourable as a percentage of the total number of PL owners.
While Randy and his team have made errors, some through naivety, others through inexperience, I do believe that they have done as much as they can to address the various needs of the club and fans. None of us will ever fully agree with every aspect of his chairmanship, but investment capability aside, I'd still pick him over pretty much everybody on that list.
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Unfortunately, investment capability is what it comes down to, above everything else.
There are two things that worry me. One is that the club is looking more and more like it is badly run. The other is that the degree to which the brakes are being put on the spending is dangerous.
I understand that he might want to rein back the spending, but the way things are looking now, he's doing it to a level which suggests we'll maybe struggle to just coast.
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Looking at the figures (and I appreciate that it isn't just about transfer fees), the net spending since Randy arrived is approx 89 million in 5 years (near as damn it).
Assuming we get 20 for Downing and we got 17 for Young, that gives him the opportunity to bring the spend down to a little over 50m, or 10 million a year.
I can see why he'd think that way - he'd be recouping a large part of his investment, and be maneouvring into a situation where he could feasibly sell the club (were he able to find a buyer) and make a profit on it, or at the very least absolutely minimise his losses.
To be entirely honest, I woudn't blame him if he wanted to get out. I could understand the reasons. The flip side of it, though, is that if he starts clawing back that investment, then we've gone from a club which has had a decent amount of money invested in it to one which has had a less impressive figure ploughed in.
My worry is that that is what he really wants to do, and in January or next summer, we'll be moving Darren Bent on to recoup another 25m of that. The last twelve months really have been surreally odd.
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Or that he sees this as an opportunity to reset the club to a model that he can sustain. That he has no intention to sell the club, and once he's got to a position where he's rid the club of players that don't want to be here, and wages that are like heavy stones round his neck, he can start to build again. If that means a season or two of not competing at the very top then so be it. I'm guessing he's hoping that is not the case at all, and through a combination of remotivated incumbents, clever spending and talented younger players we might have a run at Europe and pinch a cup.
I can see why Moyes was so appealing to him because Everton went from being a very successful club at or near the top in the 80's to one that floated around the middle of the table. Moyes made them relevant again by being solid and reponsible despite financial contraints that have been far worse than ours will be. He obviously couldn't get Moyes, so my belief is that he sees McLeish as someone who in time might be able to replicate that model and compete at a consistent and sustainable level.
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It won't just be a season or two of not competing, though, that's the thing. Sell all your best players as quick as you can and you don't just lose good footballers, you also make yourself very unattractive to other good footballers.
I think you've a point re Moyes, though. Unfortunately Randy's approach to identifying his own Moyes seems to be:
Is Scottish? Check.
Is ginger? Check.
incidentally, running the club on a sustainable footing in pace with what he could afford - isn't that what we spent decades hurling abuse at Doug about?
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Or that he sees this as an opportunity to reset the club to a model that he can sustain. That he has no intention to sell the club, and once he's got to a position where he's rid the club of players that don't want to be here, and wages that are like heavy stones round his neck, he can start to build again. If that means a season or two of not competing at the very top then so be it. I'm guessing he's hoping that is not the case at all, and through a combination of remotivated incumbents, clever spending and talented younger players we might have a run at Europe and pinch a cup.
I can see why Moyes was so appealing to him because Everton went from being a very successful club at or near the top in the 80's to one that floated around the middle of the table. Moyes made them relevant again by being solid and reponsible despite financial contraints that have been far worse than ours will be. He obviously couldn't get Moyes, so my belief is that he sees McLeish as someone who in time might be able to replicate that model and compete at a consistent and sustainable level.
Pretty much how I see it re McLeish.
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I think on thẹ whole Randy has done a good job, it's just the economics of football have changed over the last few years. Being a multi millionaire or even a billionaire is not enough to compete at the top level anymore. So what I believe the club should do is set some new goals. We can't win thẹ league, but we could win a cup. So I believe our target should be to first and foremost maintain premier league status, continue to develop our youth, but go all out for the league or FA cup. Winning trophies regularly is what thẹ games about. If we won the league cup next season, and thẹ FA cup thẹ following suddenly the clubs profile is raised making it easier to attract better players. Then thẹ club can really push on. That's why thẹ FA cup surrender last year was so hard to take. So the message should be no more weakened sides in the cup, maintain premier league status, go all out for FA cup/league cup and I think the general atmosphere surrounding the club would improve. I know it's obviously easier said than done, but it is a realistic target, where as finishing top four is, Imo, out of reach - for now!
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I think on thẹ whole Randy has done a good job, it's just the economics of football have changed over the last few years. Being a multi millionaire or even a billionaire is not enough to compete at the top level anymore. So what I believe the club should do is set some new goals. We can't win thẹ league, but we could win a cup. So I believe our target should be to first and foremost maintain premier league status, continue to develop our youth, but go all out for the league or FA cup. Winning trophies regularly is what thẹ games about. If we won the league cup next season, and thẹ FA cup thẹ following suddenly the clubs profile is raised making it easier to attract better players. Then thẹ club can really push on. That's why thẹ FA cup surrender last year was so hard to take. So the message should be no more weakened sides in the cup, maintain premier league status, go all out for FA cup/league cup and I think the general atmosphere surrounding the club would improve. I know it's obviously easier said than done, but it is a realistic target, where as finishing top four is, Imo, out of reach - for now!
Isn't that more or less a return to the pre-lerner era?
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I think on thẹ whole Randy has done a good job, it's just the economics of football have changed over the last few years. Being a multi millionaire or even a billionaire is not enough to compete at the top level anymore. So what I believe the club should do is set some new goals. We can't win thẹ league, but we could win a cup. So I believe our target should be to first and foremost maintain premier league status, continue to develop our youth, but go all out for the league or FA cup. Winning trophies regularly is what thẹ games about. If we won the league cup next season, and thẹ FA cup thẹ following suddenly the clubs profile is raised making it easier to attract better players. Then thẹ club can really push on. That's why thẹ FA cup surrender last year was so hard to take. So the message should be no more weakened sides in the cup, maintain premier league status, go all out for FA cup/league cup and I think the general atmosphere surrounding the club would improve. I know it's obviously easier said than done, but it is a realistic target, where as finishing top four is, Imo, out of reach - for now!
That is a fans point of view. The PL is where the money is, not the FA cup, or League Cup. I'm sure most Blues fans were happy with their cup win, but it was worth about an extra £1m in revenue, being relegated cost them about £30m.
That's what i really don't understand about the McLeish signing, if he follows his current form of managing in the PL, the club stand to lose financially.
The PL is massive business these days, the fact that we seem to struggle with attracting sponsors, maximising profit from shirt sales, paying out compensation for managers, seems to suggest that from a business point of view we don't have the necessary nous and acumen to compete.
I
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The point I'm trying to make is that if we could win maybe two cups over the next few years then thẹ profile of thẹ club would be raised and then we could attract better players and the feel good factor would be back. Then we could push on and aim for thẹ top four.
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The point I'm trying to make is that if we could win maybe two cups over the next few years then thẹ profile of thẹ club would be raised and then we could attract better players and the feel good factor would be back. Then we could push on and aim for thẹ top four.
And as fans i think we would all love that. But we would have to seriously question why MON threw in the Europa towel and why Houllier did the same with the FA cup, is it because they were given orders to concentrate on the league by RL?
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How many times are we going to have the same thread with a different name?
Can someone just make an "I Hate Lerner Because He Hired Eck" forum? It would make it a lot easier...
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How many times are we going to have the same thread with a different name?
Can someone just make an "I Hate Lerner Because He Hired Eck" forum? It would make it a lot easier...
I don't hate Lerner and I understand why he hired McLeish, I just wish he wasn't running the club in a way that makes McLeish the best man for the job.
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Isn't that more or less a return to the pre-lerner era?
In a way yes, but Chelsea and Citeh have torn up the pre-Lerner rulebook. Back in Uncle Doug's day it wouldn't have taken a huge investment for us to have cracked the "Big four" or whatever they were calling it then, Ellis was either unwilling or unable to do this depending on your viewpoint.
To crack the Champions League places now would take a massive amount of money or a great deal of luck (see Spurs benefiting from a combination of Liverpool going tits-up and Citeh buying players but not a team).
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Aye, without 'space race' spending the best we can hope for is a good cup run and a sniff of UEFA football
sad but true
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Im not sure I agree. A good youth set up which we seem to have will also get us there. It will take time, but Arse make Chumps league every year, and most of those players have been developed rather than paid through the nose. Thats the way I would prefer it...
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Im not sure I agree. A good youth set up which we seem to have will also get us there. It will take time, but Arse make Chumps league every year, and most of those players have been developed rather than paid through the nose. Thats the way I would prefer it...
Time is something which today's 'jam today' fans just will not give any manager or any owner.
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Im not sure I agree. A good youth set up which we seem to have will also get us there. It will take time, but Arse make Chumps league every year, and most of those players have been developed rather than paid through the nose. Thats the way I would prefer it...
Time is something which today's 'jam today' fans just will not give any manager or any owner.
And isn't something that will lead to success anyway. We've had some decent young players come through the ranks, but how many have moved on to a be bigger success elsewhere? We certainly don't develop enough of sufficient quality to trouble the top clubs.
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Im not sure I agree. A good youth set up which we seem to have will also get us there. It will take time, but Arse make Chumps league every year, and most of those players have been developed rather than paid through the nose. Thats the way I would prefer it...
Time is something which today's 'jam today' fans just will not give any manager or any owner.
And isn't something that will lead to success anyway. We've had some decent young players come through the ranks, but how many have moved on to a be bigger success elsewhere? We certainly don't develop enough of sufficient quality to trouble the top clubs.
With Arsenal it is more down to them nicking the right 16/17 year olds from European clubs than producing their own that come up through the ranks.
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The difference between us and Arsenal, though, is that their job is merely stay in the top 4 (having been there for ages), whereas we have to break in from behind, which is considerably more difficult. Still, it seems that Arsenal, with their approach, may be the club most likely to fall out of the CL spots.