Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: TopDeck113 on June 13, 2011, 08:31:36 PM
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When we were experiencing the great Randy Lerner love-in of 2006-09, I said on here that the time for judging him as an owner was not when everything was on the up, but when he’d had to deal with the poor seasons, a managerial appointment or two and the ensuing backlash from sections of the fans. At that point, we’d have more of an idea as to whether the club was in as capable a pair of hands as we were being led to believe.
Events of the last twelve months or so are leading to me to seriously question as whether Lerner really is the right man to be taking Aston Villa forward.
In my mind, the first serious error was to allow the relationship with Martin O’Neill to cool to the extent that the manager walked out when he did. We’re not the first club where the relationship between Chairman and manager irrevocably breakdowns, but the trick is to see the warning signs and either get rid of the manager at a more opportune time, or to try and reconcile the differences. This wasn’t done, MON flounced off – and recently was rewarded for doing so – and meanwhile Lerner’s insistence on doing the right thing by other clubs sees us appointing a has-been from a tiny pool of candidates.
The breakdown between Lerner and MON was in my view compounded by the appointment of Paul Faulkner as Chief Executive and the person running the show in absentia. Whatever Faulkner brought to MBNA, it is increasingly manifest these are not the skill-set necessary to do the day-to-day running of a top Premier League football club. Lerner’s absences in themselves are not particularly a problem - Sheikh Mansour rarely attends Eastlands – but what he needs is a management team that can run the club in his absence. Wanting that done in a particularly ethical way is fine, but there also needs to be people steeped in the murkier ways of the football world. Man City, for example, has Garry Cook and Brian Marwood.
The third serious error is the fact that there appears to be no contingency planning for the situation that the club now finds itself in. This smacks of rank poor management from the top down. Even prior to his ill-health, there must have been doubts as to whether Houllier was the right man for the job. The fact that we are scrambling around now for, depending who you believe, our third, fourth or fifth choice, shows a complete lack of foresight. The fact that the choice appears to be someone completely unacceptable to the majority of the fans just compounds the error. We had a couple of months from when Houllier fell ill to get our ducks in a row, and it should have been a case of “Bye, Gerard; Hello, X.”
Finally, there is the small matter of Lerner’s refusal to speak with the electronic media, and only to communicate intermittently with the written media. On the face of it there doesn’t seem too much wrong with this, as the club as a whole has continued to put people up for interview/comment. However, it creates a reservoir of resentment amongst the broadcasters and journalists, that then gets released in the negative reporting we are experiencing at present.
So, when the above are considered, do we really have, as has been regularly trumpeted over the last five years “The Best Owner in the League”? I’m sure there is a case for the defence, but in the spirit of the adversarial system, I’ll leave it to others to present that.
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We'll have a better idea on September 1st when manager and squad are in place.
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I was going to make my point, but i really can't be bothered with this claptrap.
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Express and star reporting randy has vowed not to bow to the wishes of the supporters .
A good chairman stands by his decisions and he should make the decision he sees right nevermind what fans say, randy has the most to lose and if he feels he has the right man then so be it.
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Someone else can list all the ways in which Lerner has sorted the Villa out. Top owner of a top club.
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I think it's difficult not to get caught up in the wave of negativity from the press, especially as the club are saying nothing, but we should really give Lerner the benefit of the doubt, considering his previous years with us. Just my humble opinion of course.
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Express and star reporting randy has vowed not to bow to the wishes of the supporters .
They'll have taken that from the Generals last comments
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When we were experiencing the great Randy Lerner love-in of 2006-09, I said on here that the time for judging him as an owner was not when everything was on the up, but when he’d had to deal with the poor seasons, a managerial appointment or two and the ensuing backlash from sections of the fans. At that point, we’d have more of an idea as to whether the club was in as capable a pair of hands as we were being led to believe.
Events of the last twelve months or so are leading to me to seriously question as whether Lerner really is the right man to be taking Aston Villa forward.
In my mind, the first serious error was to allow the relationship with Martin O’Neill to cool to the extent that the manager walked out when he did. We’re not the first club where the relationship between Chairman and manager irrevocably breakdowns, but the trick is to see the warning signs and either get rid of the manager at a more opportune time, or to try and reconcile the differences. This wasn’t done, MON flounced off – and recently was rewarded for doing so – and meanwhile Lerner’s insistence on doing the right thing by other clubs sees us appointing a has-been from a tiny pool of candidates.
The breakdown between Lerner and MON was in my view compounded by the appointment of Paul Faulkner as Chief Executive and the person running the show in absentia. Whatever Faulkner brought to MBNA, it is increasingly manifest these are not the skill-set necessary to do the day-to-day running of a top Premier League football club. Lerner’s absences in themselves are not particularly a problem - Sheikh Mansour rarely attends Eastlands – but what he needs is a management team that can run the club in his absence. Wanting that done in a particularly ethical way is fine, but there also needs to be people steeped in the murkier ways of the football world. Man City, for example, has Garry Cook and Brian Marwood.
The third serious error is the fact that there appears to be no contingency planning for the situation that the club now finds itself in. This smacks of rank poor management from the top down. Even prior to his ill-health, there must have been doubts as to whether Houllier was the right man for the job. The fact that we are scrambling around now for, depending who you believe, our third, fourth or fifth choice, shows a complete lack of foresight. The fact that the choice appears to be someone completely unacceptable to the majority of the fans just compounds the error. We had a couple of months from when Houllier fell ill to get our ducks in a row, and it should have been a case of “Bye, Gerard; Hello, X.”
Finally, there is the small matter of Lerner’s refusal to speak with the electronic media, and only to communicate intermittently with the written media. On the face of it there doesn’t seem too much wrong with this, as the club as a whole has continued to put people up for interview/comment. However, it creates a reservoir of resentment amongst the broadcasters and journalists, that then gets released in the negative reporting we are experiencing at present.
So, when the above are considered, do we really have, as has been regularly trumpeted over the last five years “The Best Owner in the League”? I’m sure there is a case for the defence, but in the spirit of the adversarial system, I’ll leave it to others to present that.
What you've written is a load of bollocks.
The defence rests.
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When we were experiencing the great Randy Lerner love-in of 2006-09, I said on here that the time for judging him as an owner was not when everything was on the up, but when he’d had to deal with the poor seasons, a managerial appointment or two and the ensuing backlash from sections of the fans. At that point, we’d have more of an idea as to whether the club was in as capable a pair of hands as we were being led to believe.
Events of the last twelve months or so are leading to me to seriously question as whether Lerner really is the right man to be taking Aston Villa forward.
In my mind, the first serious error was to allow the relationship with Martin O’Neill to cool to the extent that the manager walked out when he did. We’re not the first club where the relationship between Chairman and manager irrevocably breakdowns, but the trick is to see the warning signs and either get rid of the manager at a more opportune time, or to try and reconcile the differences. This wasn’t done, MON flounced off – and recently was rewarded for doing so – and meanwhile Lerner’s insistence on doing the right thing by other clubs sees us appointing a has-been from a tiny pool of candidates.
The breakdown between Lerner and MON was in my view compounded by the appointment of Paul Faulkner as Chief Executive and the person running the show in absentia. Whatever Faulkner brought to MBNA, it is increasingly manifest these are not the skill-set necessary to do the day-to-day running of a top Premier League football club. Lerner’s absences in themselves are not particularly a problem - Sheikh Mansour rarely attends Eastlands – but what he needs is a management team that can run the club in his absence. Wanting that done in a particularly ethical way is fine, but there also needs to be people steeped in the murkier ways of the football world. Man City, for example, has Garry Cook and Brian Marwood.
The third serious error is the fact that there appears to be no contingency planning for the situation that the club now finds itself in. This smacks of rank poor management from the top down. Even prior to his ill-health, there must have been doubts as to whether Houllier was the right man for the job. The fact that we are scrambling around now for, depending who you believe, our third, fourth or fifth choice, shows a complete lack of foresight. The fact that the choice appears to be someone completely unacceptable to the majority of the fans just compounds the error. We had a couple of months from when Houllier fell ill to get our ducks in a row, and it should have been a case of “Bye, Gerard; Hello, X.”
Finally, there is the small matter of Lerner’s refusal to speak with the electronic media, and only to communicate intermittently with the written media. On the face of it there doesn’t seem too much wrong with this, as the club as a whole has continued to put people up for interview/comment. However, it creates a reservoir of resentment amongst the broadcasters and journalists, that then gets released in the negative reporting we are experiencing at present.
So, when the above are considered, do we really have, as has been regularly trumpeted over the last five years “The Best Owner in the League”? I’m sure there is a case for the defence, but in the spirit of the adversarial system, I’ll leave it to others to present that.
What you've written is a load of bollocks.
The defence rests.
Crown rules in favour of defence. Take the prosecution away to be banhammered and then tortured.
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I trust randy wholeheartedly. If after speaking to everyone available he thinks mcleish is the best choice then I back him, against all my initial anger.
The case is closed in my opinion. In fact, it was never open
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Firstly, Randy Lerners success and wealth as it is, is an inherited wealth, it was his family that where the real movers and shakers, think you will find that RL has sold of a lot of the family jewels in terms of the stock holdings that was part and parcel of the Lerner family, does that have any bearing on his abilty to run a football club.....No.
What Faulkner bestowed on MBNA, well as I understand MBNA are nothing like the lending credit card institue they where a couple of years ago, the net is alive with stories of the next potential failure. Does that have any bearing on his ability to administer Villa...No, he is Randy Lerner's mouthpiece.
The point about Martin O'Niell is a good one, What was so bad that almost a season before MON left RL decided no more money, what did MON do that was so wrong that Lerner shutup shop on him in the Jan transfer window yet preceeding that we got to Wembley not once but twice in the coming months. MON's time of departure was poor in its timing and i would bet that MON regrets doing that, fact is that was a fit of temper, what pushed him to it, and the fact that we ended compensating him says to me he was in the right.
So what do we have now....not a lot, and it seems to me that we are becoming a bit of a basket case where the rest of the Premiership and its fans are concerned, as an Arsenal fan said to me today when we where having a bit of banter, me about there lack of silverware and Wenger and him saying at least we have a decent manager, you can't buy one at the moment.
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to be honest, I think a lot of people have become to embroiled in the media/betfair/itk thats been going on. We have a thread going into 100's of pages all about newspaper garbage. People all over the place are arguing over what "Sources close to villa" say. Too much turmoil and no facts. As I see it AVFC are searching for an employee on a salary of a few million quid. I can only see a few people acting calmly and they operate at Villa park.
If you can keep your head, and all that, seems quite apt at the moment
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Your right, agree with all that and while we are at it I want the following to be considered;
Brian Little was crap, wasted money and was lucky to come 4th and win the league cup!
Big Ron played crap football and had it not been for that lucky run in his second season would have taken us down!
Graham Tayor....clown! We should have got Harry Basset.
Saunders / Barton .....dont get me started on those cretins!
Hitchins..overated..Walker too attack minded...Barson...homosexual...Mcgregor ...shouldnt have bothered.
I wish Randy would take his millions, his improved ground/training ground, his fan loving attitude, his enthusiastic celebration, his modest approach and fly back to Cleveland on his private jet and sit on his Ivy league eduated silver spooned harris and lets get someone else in!
Whats Peter Ridsdale upto?
If not just put the club into administration and build a supermarket
Does anyone know how you get tickets for the darts?
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Villanation are you a nose?
You clearly have absolutely no idea what goes on at Villa. Do your research and stop spouting crap. Cheers.
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Case for the prosecution dismissed.
Paul Faulkner- you're dismissed too.
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Villanation are you a nose?
You clearly have absolutely no idea what goes on at Villa. Do your research and stop spouting crap. Cheers.
Please read the site rules. Cheers.
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....an Arsenal fan said to me today when we where having a bit of banter, me about there lack of silverware and Wenger and him saying at least we have a decent manager, you can't buy one at the moment.
Tell your Arse-loving friend he can buy a European Cup on ebay (http://sports-memorabilia.shop.ebay.co.uk/Trophies-/101738/i.html), the cheeky twunt.
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What a load of shit and a waste of my time. Yawn.
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I read this yesterday but didn't think any good could come from posting it.
But now there's a thread about it, no reason not to:
Why Villa are forced to look for their new boss on the cheap
Lerner, having invested £180m, decided that enough was enough
By Glenn Moore
They did not succeed, but when you examine their finances it is easy to understand why Aston Villa decided to pursue Roberto Martinez as their new manager in preference to Rafael Benitez and Mark Hughes.
This week's Deloitte report into football club spending laid bare the high price that Villa's owner Randy Lerner paid in attempting to break into the Champions' League bracket. The imminent departure of Ashley Young to Manchester United for £21 million underscores the fact that he has abandoned that mission.
The American bought Villa for £62m in September 2006. The previous season the club had a revenue of £49m, a wage bill of £38m (76 per cent of income), and had lost nearly £10m, two-thirds of which represented their net loss on transfers. Under David O'Leary they finished 16th.
Lerner set about lifting the club back into the top eight, where they had spent most of the previous decade. That season Martin O'Neill oversaw an improvement to 11th. A year later, Villa came sixth and made £5m profit before transfers as revenue increased to £75m. Wages were a healthy 67 per cent of turnover.
Everything looked very promising. Lerner had even won over the fans with some well-appreciated gestures like refurbishing the pub behind the Holte End. It was time to think big and challenge for the Champions' League.
However, making that next step proved very difficult. In the next two seasons revenue was increased to £91m, but wages rose faster to reach £80m (88 per cent of revenue). There was a net transfer spend of £58m, taking total losses to almost £100m. On the pitch Villa stood still, finishing sixth twice more, winning plaudits but falling away each season despite O'Neill sacrificing Uefa Cup campaigns.
Meanwhile, Manchester City had been taken over by a Sheikh whose oil wealth far outstripped Lerner's. City, spending £210m in transfers in that period, overtook Villa. So did Tottenham, their £49m two-year transfer spend and £20m per annum larger wage bill underpinned by a commercial operation which produced profits, after those wages had been paid, of £41m across those two seasons.
Lerner, having invested some £180m, decided enough was enough. Last summer transfer dealing was minimal, and turned a profit. Villa sold James Milner for £26m and bought Stephen Ireland for £8m. On the eve of the season, as these deals were being prepared, O'Neill walked out, apparently because he was unhappy that he could not re-invest all the Milner fee.
Tellingly his replacement was Gérard Houllier, a coach known for developing young talent, of which Villa have an excellent crop. True, Houllier was then given £24m to buy Darren Bent, but that was because Villa were suddenly in very real danger of relegation. Transfer dealing this summer is likely to be with a view to turning a profit, starting with Young's departure.
With Houllier's ill-health having forced his exit, Lerner is seeking a manager with a reputation for developing teams on tight budgets. He may now be thinking of an exit strategy, or he could just bide his time, waiting to see what impact Uefa's Financial Fair Play has on fees and wages.
Is it any wonder that owners, increasingly, see FFP as their saviour?
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/why-villa-are-forced-to-look-for-their-new-boss-on-the-cheap-2296408.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/why-villa-are-forced-to-look-for-their-new-boss-on-the-cheap-2296408.html)
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What a load of shit and a waste of my time. Yawn.
Thanks for that insightful comment. Topdeck has gone to the trouble of writing a thought provoking, considered piece, and whether you agree with him or not, there's no need for a response like that.
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Villanation are you a nose?
You clearly have absolutely no idea what goes on at Villa. Do your research and stop spouting crap. Cheers.
I'm not a nose, I've supported Aston Villa all my life, since the sixties, been there through the good and the bad times at Villa park, I've played at Villa park and played against an Aston Villa side back in the 70's beating them, my football as a youth was developed through what was then a Villa nursery team known as Stanley Star, it has always been that way and I now often play golf with one of the Villa Legends of the European cup side of the early eighties. No I'm not a nose....Cheers.
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What a load of shit and a waste of my time. Yawn.
Thanks for that insightful comment. Topdeck has gone to the trouble of writing a thought provoking, considered piece, and whether you agree with him or not, there's no need for a response like that.
Quite right.
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....an Arsenal fan said to me today when we where having a bit of banter, me about there lack of silverware and Wenger and him saying at least we have a decent manager, you can't buy one at the moment.
Tell your Arse-loving friend he can buy a European Cup on ebay (http://sports-memorabilia.shop.ebay.co.uk/Trophies-/101738/i.html), the cheeky twunt.
If he's like the one on our office he only watches them when they come to VP 'cos I take him - very very quiet in the Holte End ;-)
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Villanation are you a nose?
You clearly have absolutely no idea what goes on at Villa. Do your research and stop spouting crap. Cheers.
I'm not a nose, I've supported Aston Villa all my life, since the sixties, been there through the good and the bad times at Villa park, I've played at Villa park and played against an Aston Villa side back in the 70's beating them, my football as a youth was developed through what was then a Villa nursery team known as Stanley Star, it has always been that way and I now often play golf with one of the Villa Legends of the European cup side of the early eighties. No I'm not a nose....Cheers.
Do we have to guess who you are?
Sorry Villanation but that reads like one of those panel quizes. ;)
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Randy is the best owner we have had and is a Villa man, we should not be questioning his committment to Villa, in my opinion!
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I don't feel prepared to come to a verdict yet your honour.
Please give me and my fellow jurors a few more months to deliberate.
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The time to judge Randy isn't when everyhting is going well, but nor is it the time when we're at our lowest under his reign. Our lowest league finish so far, and we;ve not announced a new manager. Obviously people will be disappointed at this time.
I'm confident that come the end of Randy's ownership, we'll all be sorry to see him go.
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The time to judge Randy isn't when everyhting is going well, but nor is it the time when we're at our lowest under his reign. Our lowest league finish so far, and we;ve not announced a new manager. Obviously people will be disappointed at this time.
I'm confident that come the end of Randy's ownership, we'll all be sorry to see him go.
I think this could be right, for me RL is classic of the American breed of chairman involved with any sport, he's there with the money, the organization but is happy to let the club and club manager get on with it, unlike for example Abramovich who employs a manager and then tells him exactly how to manage the club and who to buy.
So with that in mind we have managerial heaven for any manager, makes you think.
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The time to judge Randy isn't when everyhting is going well, but nor is it the time when we're at our lowest under his reign. Our lowest league finish so far, and we;ve not announced a new manager. Obviously people will be disappointed at this time.
I'm confident that come the end of Randy's ownership, we'll all be sorry to see him go.
I think this could be right, for me RL is classic of the American breed of chairman involved with any sport, he's there with the money, the organization but is happy to let the club and club manager get on with it, unlike for example Abramovich who employs a manager and then tells him exactly how to manage the club and who to buy.
So with that in mind we have managerial heaven for any manager, makes you think.
Which has been his biggest mistake - too much power for his first manager.
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Randy will want to get the next appointment right otherwise he will waste a lot more money and find it even harder to keep up with Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool and Man City
I think Randy can afford to spend another 100 millions in next 4 years but after that he wouldn't want to do it anymore to protect his family fortune.
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What a load of shit and a waste of my time. Yawn.
Thanks for that insightful comment. Topdeck has gone to the trouble of writing a thought provoking, considered piece, and whether you agree with him or not, there's no need for a response like that.
Quite right.
Agreed - it was an immature moronic comment.
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i think he's been a bit naive. He's basically took over a business in an industry where anything goes, and at times his inexperience has shown, both with dealing with someone like MON who was/is very savvy with the press and Whelan who was basically given the chance to score a goal in an open net with our semi-laughable approach. I think the King Canute-like bastian of decency in a sea of shite image will be toned down as he's a businessman first - He'll learn and we'll start playing the game which doesn't mean he'll thrown away our values, just modify them to get the job done. I don't really care about the doomladen press reports because if anything's been learned from the last week or so, its they know absolutely nowt apart from we approached Martinez.
I'd give him 8/10 so far.
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@Dave.
Well you say to much power for MON, but when you look at the reality of a team breaking the top 4, Spurs and Everton spring to mind, then realise how fast they fall away because of just how much it costs to stay there, then what you are left with is what is realistically achievable for a Premiership side then 5th/6th is top grade stuff, thats the reality, so in that respect RL got it right and putting his trust in MON seems now to be right, simply because we where up there season after season, qualifying for Europe, cup finals, we where feared as a team to reckoned with.
There is a real possibilty we never see that again, or at least for a fair period of time.
This is not an add for MON but IMO i think for a matter of 2 maybe 3 season both manager and chair got it bang on right.
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Randy is the best owner we have had and is a Villa man, we should not be questioning his committment to Villa, in my opinion!
I understand where you're coming from, but opinions are subjective. I believe we should question, not necessarily for the sake of it [though that's sometimes justified to encourage debate], but definitely when it's warranted.
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Randy is the best owner we have had and is a Villa man, we should not be questioning his committment to Villa, in my opinion!
I understand where you're coming from, but opinions are subjective. I believe we should question, not necessarily for the sake of it [though that's sometimes justified to encourage debate], but definitely when it's warranted.
Were you questioning Randy when he put £150 million into the team?
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Randy is the best owner we have had and is a Villa man, we should not be questioning his committment to Villa, in my opinion!
I understand where you're coming from, but opinions are subjective. I believe we should question, not necessarily for the sake of it [though that's sometimes justified to encourage debate], but definitely when it's warranted.
Were you questioning Randy when he put £150 million into the team?
I know (I naively didn't) many people questioned on whom it was spent on.
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Randy is the best owner we have had and is a Villa man, we should not be questioning his committment to Villa, in my opinion!
I understand where you're coming from, but opinions are subjective. I believe we should question, not necessarily for the sake of it [though that's sometimes justified to encourage debate], but definitely when it's warranted.
Were you questioning Randy when he put £150 million into the team?
I know (I naively didn't) many people questioned on whom it was spent on.
So you want randy to play role as manager too deciding who we should sign?
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Randy is the best owner we have had and is a Villa man, we should not be questioning his committment to Villa, in my opinion!
I understand where you're coming from, but opinions are subjective. I believe we should question, not necessarily for the sake of it [though that's sometimes justified to encourage debate], but definitely when it's warranted.
Were you questioning Randy when he put £150 million into the team?
Probably not, can't remember in all honesty. Whether I was or not, that was then, this is now. Momentum's been lost.
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Randy is the best owner we have had and is a Villa man, we should not be questioning his committment to Villa, in my opinion!
I understand where you're coming from, but opinions are subjective. I believe we should question, not necessarily for the sake of it [though that's sometimes justified to encourage debate], but definitely when it's warranted.
Were you questioning Randy when he put £150 million into the team?
I know (I naively didn't) many people questioned on whom it was spent on.
So you want randy to play role as manager too deciding who we should sign?
No, not at all. But he might have someone else upstairs helping to decide if we should.
I was saying many people questioned who the money was being spent on in the last four years and I don't think Randy questioned it enough, he had absolute faith in MON. Now though I don't think he will give a manager that much faith again.
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Big Ron played crap football?? What are you on about Sam?
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One of the worst things about having the General posting on fan sites is that it's made it unacceptable to criticise any element of the board's conduct. Take Topdeck's post, it isn't slagging off the board really but the knee jerk reaction from 90% of posters is to say "yikes, a post that is less than 100% complimentary, we'd better attack the poster in case Randy gets the hump!". One of the reasons I started reading H&V, and then posting on the website was because it gave the fans' point of view, both good and bad, and was an antidote to the corporate blandness of official club pronouncements. "Is this the programme?" is a long standing joke amongst the people who sell the fanzine around the ground. "Is this the official site?" could be the digital version.
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I'll criticize Randy etc when I think they deserve it.
If on September 1st McLeish is our manager and we have the likes of Jerome and Ridgewell in the squad then it's open season on him.
But it isn't, they aren't, so it's not.
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If this happens, I won't be questioning Randy's commitment, as I think substantial funds will still be made available. But I'll sure as hell question his judgement.
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In terms of putting in the money, Randy has been incredible for us.
What concerns me is the fact that for a while now we've been showing distinct signs of really rank disorganisation. Seeing the mess we are in now as some kind of conspiracy between the press and the bookies is laughable. The press wouldn't be taking the piss out of us now if there wasn't anything to take the piss out of in the first place.
I thought they got dropped into an awful situation when O'Neill left, but really, these are the perfect circumstances in which to be finding a new manager, yet still we seem to have managed to waste the six weeks warning we had.
The "we don't talk to the press" stance is fine in principle, but then why on earth have the general randomly dropping stuff on here and other forums which the press seize on? Why make it so hard on them in one sense, but so easy in another?
I have no doubt that the board are good intentioned, but I think they have underestimated how cut throat and hypocritical the industry is (and quite frankly, if the flip side of being the industry nice guy is that we get nowhere, then there needs to be a rethink on that policy), and have been naive in thinking you can do all this without a big chunk of football knowledge on the board.
The could fix a lot of this mess tomorrow if they wanted. They could get Steve Stride back in. They won't, though, and the club will suffer for it.
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Who was that media bloke the club had around the time of the takeover, Phil Mepham was it? What's he doing now?
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In terms of putting in the money, Randy has been incredible for us.
What concerns me is the fact that for a while now we've been showing distinct signs of really rank disorganisation. Seeing the mess we are in now as some kind of conspiracy between the press and the bookies is laughable. The press wouldn't be taking the piss out of us now if there wasn't anything to take the piss out of in the first place.
I thought they got dropped into an awful situation when O'Neill left, but really, these are the perfect circumstances in which to be finding a new manager, yet still we seem to have managed to waste the six weeks warning we had.
The "we don't talk to the press" stance is fine in principle, but then why on earth have the general randomly dropping stuff on here and other forums which the press seize on? Why make it so hard on them in one sense, but so easy in another?
I have no doubt that the board are good intentioned, but I think they have underestimated how cut throat and hypocritical the industry is (and quite frankly, if the flip side of being the industry nice guy is that we get nowhere, then there needs to be a rethink on that policy), and have been naive in thinking you can do all this without a big chunk of football knowledge on the board.
The could fix a lot of this mess tomorrow if they wanted. They could get Steve Stride back in. They won't, though, and the club will suffer for it.
Rank disorganisation - I know things are not going how people want them at the moment but that comment is a bit over the top.
The media have been waiting to get at Randy Lerner. There are many football writers who do not like Americans being involved in English football. First it was the Glaziers, then it was Hicks and Gillette and now it is Randy's turn. Ever since (or even before) MON left when a few cracks started to appear, they have been turning the screw. They feel that now is their time. There may be some truth in what has been printed at times but the vast majority has been an utter load of crap.
With regards to your comment about Steve Stride, as much as he was an experienced administrator, you never go back, always forward.
If people really believe in the club, now is the time to circle the wagons and let things take their course. Randy will make up his own mind on what he wants to do and to be honest I have not seen much wrong to date. He does things in his own time but at times that is not a bad thing. If Randy makes a mistake now, he will have made his own bed and will have to lie in it.
Like others, I think the board should be strengthened with a couple of 'football' experienced non-execs. I am also a believer in a club manager system (less powerful than a DoF), with the club manager being the club's voice in media matters.
This is not a kangaroo court and the OP, although well intentioned in starting a discussion, has gone over the top in the style of the topic (in my opinion).
As I said above, time to circle the wagons, the cowboys are coming.
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I dont mind having Lerner in charge, its the Faulkner guy I dislike.
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Big Ron played crap football?? What are you on about Sam?
Think it was meant to be ironic Phil
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Randy is the best owner we have had and is a Villa man, we should not be questioning his committment to Villa, in my opinion!
I understand where you're coming from, but opinions are subjective. I believe we should question, not necessarily for the sake of it [though that's sometimes justified to encourage debate], but definitely when it's warranted.
Were you questioning Randy when he put £150 million into the team?
He's invested about half that figure in the squad when you take into account the value of players sold. He's also placed nearly a £100m of debt on the club and charged more than £11m in management fees and interest payments in just one year.
That doesn't make him a bad chairman/owner, they're just some of the facts of the matter.
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Good owner but there are big problems somewhere. Allowing the general to tell everyone on facebook mccleash is made for us (if true) is also pretty amateur and unprofessional.
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We've had so many problems/issues since MON left. The appointment of his successor and waiting for him to take his post. Kit issues, new sponsor pulling out, finding a new sponsor, awaiting details of next season's kit now.
It does appear at times, that they have little idea of running a football club.
But i have no doubt that Randy is genuine and wants to do whats best for us. But we hear of Cleveland Browns fans opinions on his running of their franchise and they seem to think he's pretty incompetent; is he just not cut out to run a top club?
I worry about our nicely nice approach, it seems we're scared to upset anyone and poach a manager. But if you want the best you can get, you dont really have a choice.
If randy were to leave, we could regret it big time. More and more foreign investors are taking control of clubs now. We could easily end up with someone like Carson Yeung or those Indian chicken owners who came in all guns firing and fired the guy (Sam Allardyce) whose most likely to keep anyone up!
We could easily end up shedding a few tears if we lost Randy!
I do think Randy needs to bring in someone like Graham Taylor or Houllier and get some sound advice and experience on all footballing issues. Because we seem to be lacking/nieve with addressing ongoing issues.
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I see nothing in the thread that is not worth debating and some of the replies are simply cringeworthy for this site. I would think most supporters would agree that getting rid of all the experienced backroom people at Villa Park was nothing short of disasterous. Faulkner, Randy and the General new F/A about running a premiership football club and it has shown. He has thrown a lot of money around and supported his managers but if you have not got the right people at the top you are doomed to failure.
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Dont worry Topdeck,i and and couple of friends of mine agree with you fully. Defence dismissed.
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Randy is a great owner and has really brought us back to the big time. However, the board lacks football knowledge and just have no clue how to go about finding a manager.
As I've said before, I just get a bad vibe off Faulkner. I think we'd be better off without.
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This is like when your missus goes to the shops and slagging off her purchases before she's even got to Sainsbury's.
If when she gets back she's only bought some aubergines and a packet of tampax then I'll get the hump but she might still come back with loads of food and got me a few bottles of beer.
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Until now, there has been nothing but positives concerning Randy Lerner. I really hope it stays that way.
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Haven't read the thread, but what I'd say is that without question Randy is a well meaning chairman. The Acorns thing, funding transfers and various other bits and pieces say to me that he 100% has his heart in the right place.
Whether or not he's a smooth enough operator in the cut throat world of football we're about to find out......
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Good owner but there are big problems somewhere. Allowing the general to tell everyone on facebook mccleash is made for us (if true) is also pretty amateur and unprofessional.
The big proviso is "if true" - bit IF it was true it seems bizarre that forums like H & V would set up a secure area in order to deflect some of the media scrutiny on the General's statements, only for him to go blabbing to all & sundry on Facebook.
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Randy Lerner is a good owner for an upper mid table club who can push for the top 6. He is not a good onwer for a club with champions league aspirations
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Randy Lerner is a good owner for an upper mid table club who can push for the top 6. He is not a good onwer for a club with champions league aspirations
There are some short memories on here but even if this is true, what would you do about it?.
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Sorry to upset people but we are an upper mid table club who can push for the top 6.
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Sorry to upset people but we are an upper mid table club who can push for the top 6.
How are we an upper mid table club if we're the 5th best team since the premier league began?
I have us at top 7 minimum and we should pushing for 4th spot.
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Because we luckily finished 9th last season and just had a huge decline of a season. We're losing talented players and need a new manager, several new players and some stability. You think we automatically should be fighting for the CL places next year? Ridiculous. Fifth best is in the top 6, you understand? The predicted standings for a club change quickly. Manchester City are 11th in the all time league, but they're a club who will be pushing for the title NOW.
We are one of the most successful and biggest clubs in the country. That doesn't mean we're going to be fighting for the league. Live in the now.
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Randy Lerner is a good owner for an upper mid table club who can push for the top 6. He is not a good onwer for a club with champions league aspirations
There are some short memories on here but even if this is true, what would you do about it?.
Nothing I can do about it. I'm fairly happy with how we have progressed in the last 4 years (apart from last year) and hope that we can continue to push for regular top 6 positions and good cup runs now and then as that is, I believe , the limit of where we are as a club under Randy Lerner, IMO he / the club / the first manager we had under Lerner all performed to about their limit and I was satisfied.
Not sure I can do much more about that.
If Randy wants to achieve more with us then he will have to get additional investment in to the club, large amounts of money which will attract the quality management and players required to take the club to the next level.
If Randy wants the club to achieve more and he can't do what was suggested above then maybe he should look for another owner for us who does have the resources to move the club to another level.
Many people on these sites have said that MON could not take us to the next level and we had reached our limit with him. I am afraid he was our best hope of achieving better things due to his ability to get more out of less. The person we have really reached our limit with is Randy.
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Many people on these sites have said that MON could not take us to the next level and we had reached our limit with him. I am afraid he was our best hope of achieving better things due to his ability to get more out of less. The person we have really reached our limit with is Randy.
Nobody except MON could have achieved what was achieved, given the resources? That's bullshit my friend.
EDIT: Of course if MON was so great the queue for his services must be right round the block by now. Who's come in for him again?
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Many people on these sites have said that MON could not take us to the next level and we had reached our limit with him. I am afraid he was our best hope of achieving better things due to his ability to get more out of less. The person we have really reached our limit with is Randy.
Nobody except MON could have achieved what was achieved, given the resources? That's bullshit my friend.
EDIT: Of course if MON was so great the queue for his services must be right round the block by now. Who's come in for him again?
Yet that is the only part of my post you try and debate with and ignore the substantive part. Which is basically another current issue with most of the fan base, denial.
As to MON and people queueing round the block for him, he only recently completed a deal to sort out his departure from his last post so wasn't really available until the start of the summer. ABour the same time we started looking for a new manager and people keep telling me the time between then and now is not really that long at all.
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Yet that is the only part of my post you try and debate with and ignore the substantive part. Which is basically another current issue with most of the fan base, denial.
Up to that point in your post I was accepting you had your viewpoint. Then you said something I strongly disagreed with so I debated the point. Villa overall were the 6th biggest spenders when MON was in charge. The finished 6th, no more and no less than could've been expected. How is that 'getting more from less'? And how long has it been since the tribunal ended? One month? The Chelsea job has come up, hasn't it? Reckon MON has a chance?
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Sorry to upset people but we are an upper mid table club who can push for the top 6.
With the present owner yes, it seems that way (I hope I'm wrong). But we could -and should - be aiming for much higher.
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Oh dear. IMHO the man, and his management team have done and are doing, a great job. Plaudits from Wheelan and others before due to the AV professional, quiet way of doing things. I respect that. Everything else is media laugh in time. A lot of great PR and a bit of PR brick dropping occasionally but that mostly due to the media slant and the most virulent press on the planet.
Very unfair time to lay into them when that Press is, well, being themselves. Let's see what happens. Personally, very proud of the way we handle ourselves as a Club.
And why don't we compare our Chairman with other Clubs if you must.
Haven't got to go further than down the road to the SHAmbles.
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Not3 bad, I thought it had been proven in official transfer figures that during mons tenure we were the 3rd highest spending club and not the 6 th?
I believe from official figures which were published only Chelsea and man city had a higher net spend during that time with spurs slightly trailing us?
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I have heard various theories and stats during the tortuous debates over how much Aston Villa have spent compared to other clubs during the past few years. I'm no expert on the subject but if what you say is true then the theory that MON got 'more from less' is even more shown up as a myth.
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Woken to the news that Blues are going to report us for tapping up their manager.
Now I'm sure that they're looking, first and foremost, at the main chance and the opportunity to secure a few million to help shore up their financial plight - McLeish after all was probably walking a tightrope. However, for all Lerner's desire to do the right thing, the fact that Blues have somehow managed to seize the initiative and made us look like the, err, villains, is incredulous. If we were going to be accused of making an illegal approach, at least let it be for someone worthwhile.
In a couple weeks we've been turned into a laughing stock. That's what you get when the people at the top of an organisation haven't a clue as to the business they're working in. Dignity and probity are not characteristics normally associated with people who run football clubs; duplicity and manoeuvrings behind the scenes with agents are. Whilst the person wouldn't appeal to me personally, this whole episode shows that we desperately need someone versed in the dark arts of the football world.
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He needs to be more ruthless, I heard he didn't approach jol because of respect for the fulham chairman. Now look where we are!
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It's a brave call and I hope it works out- randy has been good for our club and people should see how mcleish does before lambasting randy over it.
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That's what I don't understand, Fulham now have Jol, if we have such great relations with Fulham, why not ask them permission to speak to Hughes, preferably today.
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I like Randy but he's how he's gone trying to get a new manager is very naive and doesn't really have a clue.
Just going from manager to the next enquiring wihout any real plan.
Pull yourself together, you're meant to be an established businessman yet you've gone about this the wrong way completely. It's been a joke. McLeish?!
So annoyed.
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I can see him selling to some uber wealthy oil trillionaire in the end, maybe sooner rather than later.
As the Gen reminds us constantly, he's a businessman - he's looking at Villa as a portfolio enhancer eventually.
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It's a brave call
There's a difference between bravery and idiocy.
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Now you wonder why MON f***ed off when he did.
RL's naiveté and PF's nodding head routine stirred up the same anger MON felt then and we're feeling now, a pair of incompetent shills who know little about football.
Steve Stride and RL's first CEO knew then.
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Now you wonder why MON f***ed off when he did.
RL's naiveté and PF's nodding head routine stirred up the same anger MON felt then and we're feeling now, a pair of incompetent shills who know little about football.
Steve Stride and RL's first CEO knew then.
There's no doubt in my mind that MON ran the footballing side from virtual top to bottom, when he jumped ship they were well and truly in it as none of Randy's lot have the first clue about the workings of English football.
O'Neill must be laughing his head off.
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Now you wonder why MON f***ed off when he did.
RL's naiveté and PF's nodding head routine stirred up the same anger MON felt then and we're feeling now, a pair of incompetent shills who know little about football.
Steve Stride and RL's first CEO knew then.
There's no doubt in my mind that MON ran the footballing side from virtual top to bottom, when he jumped ship they were well and truly in it as none of Randy's lot have the first clue about the workings of English football.
O'Neill must be laughing his head off.
He did, he had Randy round his little finger until the money started to dry up.
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Well, for all those persuaded by the prosecution, there is a 'Randy Lerner out' website being set up.
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Well, for all those persuaded by the prosecution, there is a 'Randy Lerner out' website being set up.
I don't want him out.
I want him to come to his senses.
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I think Top Deck makes a lot of good points. I loved it when RL took over, not least because we were finally (almost) rid of Ellis.
There's no denying there are a lot of plusses - making the fans feel they had a voice, backing the manager in the transfer market, trying to improve things off the pitch, trying to do things with integrity in what is a shitty business, development of the training ground, and their respect for the traditions and ambitons of a famous old club.
However I've long had my doubts about RL and co. when it came to their knowledge of the game and their ability to hack it in the cut-throat world of modern day football. From what I have read RL is not highly regarded by Browns fans, and I think I am beginning to see why.
He inherited MON and for me his mistake there was not alienating him but naively letting him conrol everything including the wage negotiations. I doubt he would have done likewise in his banking empire, because it makes no sense. It was always going to end in tears.
He's has made several poor coaching appointments for the Browns, and perfromances on the pitch have been mediocre. For Villa I don't necessarilly agree that GH was bad appointment because I think his long term vision was taking us in the right direction and I would have liked to have seen him stay to see it through. However the drawn out manner of his appointment, consulting everyone from SAF to the tea lady, revealed the dearth of footballing knowledge within the club. Football clubs rarely if ever go about things in such a convoluted, protracted, almost painful manner.
The team RL has assembled to run the club consists of a middle ranking Banking executive and a retired American General. Between them it looks very much like they lack sufficient depth of knowledge of the ways of English football. That should hardly come as a major surprise. By the General's own admission they are once again going down this protracted route of seeking advice from everyone and their dog, and interviewing whoever they think is a suitable candidate. This seems to include anyone that might be even vaguely suitable, and some who clearly aren't. And in the meantime showing zero acumen in handling the media.
We previously had a one or two Chief Execs with football experience (Stride, Robinson, other ?) who left presumably because of differences with RL or MON. They are the type, football people, we desperately need involved in running the club, and I don't mean Ellis. We are also crying out for a good PPIO or Media and Communications Manager.
Much of the criticism above will still stand even if we end up with Guus Hiddink as coach.
To summarise, I like RL and Co because they are nice respectful guys willing to pump money into the club. However, sadly, they do not seem to have much of a clue how to run a major English Football Club (or for that matter an American Football franchise) or how to handle the English media.
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That's what I don't understand, Fulham now have Jol, if we have such great relations with Fulham, why not ask them permission to speak to Hughes, preferably today.
He's going Chelsea with Hiddink as DoF apparently
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I think Top Deck makes a lot of good points. I loved it when RL took over, not least because we were finally (almost) rid of Ellis.
There's no denying there are a lot of plusses - making the fans feel they had a voice, backing the manager in the transfer market, trying to improve things off the pitch, trying to do things with integrity in what is a shitty business, development of the training ground, and their respect for the traditions and ambitons of a famous old club.
However I've long had my doubts about RL and co. when it came to their knowledge of the game and their ability to hack it in the cut-throat world of modern day football. From what I have read RL is not highly regarded by Browns fans, and I think I am beginning to see why.
He inherited MON and for me his mistake there was not alienating him but naively letting him conrol everything including the wage negotiations.
Go on, how do you know that?
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Learner out? Dear god I've heard it all now
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I like Randy but he's how he's gone trying to get a new manager is very naive and doesn't really have a clue.
Just going from manager to the next enquiring wihout any real plan.
Pull yourself together, you're meant to be an established businessman yet you've gone about this the wrong way completely. It's been a joke. McLeish?!
So annoyed.
This. >:(
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Well, for all those persuaded by the prosecution, there is a 'Randy Lerner out' website being set up.
Bloody ridiculous.
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Well, for all those persuaded by the prosecution, there is a 'Randy Lerner out' website being set up.
*Shakes head sadly*
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I can see him selling to some uber wealthy oil trillionaire in the end, maybe sooner rather than later.
As the Gen reminds us constantly, he's a businessman - he's looking at Villa as a portfolio enhancer eventually.
Football clubs being such good investments. There's a lot of short memories around.
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I am behind Randy and back his judgement.
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Well, for all those persuaded by the prosecution, there is a 'Randy Lerner out' website being set up.
I don't want him out.
I want him to come to his senses.
People should be careful what they wish for. He might make mistakes from time to time but he has been immense.
Guys ankle is Tattooed, thats all I need to know.
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I'm getting a sneaking suspicion that Randy is more interested in surrounding himself with people he likes than the people best equipped to do the job.
For example, why are we choosing a manager twice relegated (McLeish) ahead of a manager who has twice brought his team to a CL final (Benitez)? The problem could be that Benitez would be a constant bother, frequently entering Lerner's office asking for things, demanding improvements in how the club is run and maybe even vent his frustrations publicly.
But despite the Spaniard's deficiencies you would suspect that his record as a proven winner would make him a more intriguing candidate than McLeish. The club would probably respond that past record doesn't count for nothing if the candidate doesn't share the board's vision. But maybe the crux is that Lerner and Faulkner don't understand they are appointing the next Villa manager, not their next best mate.
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Well, for all those persuaded by the prosecution, there is a 'Randy Lerner out' website being set up.
I don't want him out.
I want him to come to his senses.
People should be careful what they wish for. He might make mistakes from time to time but he has been immense.
Guys ankle is Tattooed, thats all I need to know.
You're very easily pleased. A tattoo could be removed by laser in a morning for a few hundred quid. We've had lots of nice little gimmicks, we're a bit light on a coherent, long term strategy.
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I think Top Deck makes a lot of good points. I loved it when RL took over, not least because we were finally (almost) rid of Ellis.
There's no denying there are a lot of plusses - making the fans feel they had a voice, backing the manager in the transfer market, trying to improve things off the pitch, trying to do things with integrity in what is a shitty business, development of the training ground, and their respect for the traditions and ambitons of a famous old club.
However I've long had my doubts about RL and co. when it came to their knowledge of the game and their ability to hack it in the cut-throat world of modern day football. From what I have read RL is not highly regarded by Browns fans, and I think I am beginning to see why.
He inherited MON and for me his mistake there was not alienating him but naively letting him conrol everything including the wage negotiations.
Go on, how do you know that?
Derpends on which bit you are referring to?
The good bits mentioned are widely known.
The anti RL feelings of the Browns fans over his poor coaching appointments and perfromances have been fairly widely reported.
I know I've had my doubts about RL and co's football nous for a while because it was me havng the doubts.
It's generally accepted that MON had already been appointed or at least lined up by Ellis.
And it's generally accepted that MON had total control of playing matters including the wages. If he didn't then RL is even more to blame for allowing the wage bill to escalate so much.
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Well, for all those persuaded by the prosecution, there is a 'Randy Lerner out' website being set up.
I don't want him out.
I want him to come to his senses.
Exactly. If he could ally his love for the club with some some genuine football nous within the Boardroom he'd be the perfect owner. The latter appears sadly lacking unfortunately.
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Well, for all those persuaded by the prosecution, there is a 'Randy Lerner out' website being set up.
Now I know the world has gone mad.
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Well, for all those persuaded by the prosecution, there is a 'Randy Lerner out' website being set up.
I don't want him out.
I want him to come to his senses.
Spot on.
That is exactly what I want, too. He's been utterly superb at stumping up the money, but if you don't surround yourself with people who really know this industry, you end up wasting a good deal of it.
Who fancies a guess at MON compensation + Houllier pay off + McLeish compensation, for example? What a gigantic stack of wasted money.
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Well, for all those persuaded by the prosecution, there is a 'Randy Lerner out' website being set up.
I don't want him out.
I want him to come to his senses.
Spot on.
That is exactly what I want, too. He's been utterly superb at stumping up the money, but if you don't surround yourself with people who really know this industry, you end up wasting a good deal of it.
Who fancies a guess at MON compensation + Houllier pay off + McLeish compensation, for example? What a gigantic stack of wasted money.
MON compensation + Houllier pay off + McLeish compensation + Mcleish Pay off
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Randy has done enough in my mind to be given respect and even though I am not in support of the likely appointment of AM I will try my very best to give it a chance ....all be it through gritted teath intially
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Well, for all those persuaded by the prosecution, there is a 'Randy Lerner out' website being set up.
I don't want him out.
I want him to come to his senses.
Spot on.
That is exactly what I want, too. He's been utterly superb at stumping up the money, but if you don't surround yourself with people who really know this industry, you end up wasting a good deal of it.
Who fancies a guess at MON compensation + Houllier pay off + McLeish compensation, for example? What a gigantic stack of wasted money.
I don't believe we'll have to pay them compensation.
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Well, for all those persuaded by the prosecution, there is a 'Randy Lerner out' website being set up.
I don't want him out.
I want him to come to his senses.
People should be careful what they wish for. He might make mistakes from time to time but he has been immense.
Guys ankle is Tattooed, thats all I need to know.
I don't care if he's got an image of Pongo Waring etched onto his bell end, he still doesn't know how to pick a manager.
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Well, for all those persuaded by the prosecution, there is a 'Randy Lerner out' website being set up.
That is the most stupid thing I have ever read. Who other than someone who wants to stir up shit would create that?
Pathetic really pathetic...
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As others have said I don't want him out, I just want him to gather his marbles again.
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Well, for all those persuaded by the prosecution, there is a 'Randy Lerner out' website being set up.
I don't want him out.
I want him to come to his senses.
Spot on.
That is exactly what I want, too. He's been utterly superb at stumping up the money, but if you don't surround yourself with people who really know this industry, you end up wasting a good deal of it.
Who fancies a guess at MON compensation + Houllier pay off + McLeish compensation, for example? What a gigantic stack of wasted money.
I don't believe we'll have to pay them compensation.
Neither do I. Or at least it won't be anything close to what has been quoted so far. I listened to that bloke from the LMA yesterday, and apparently Mcleish was receiving dogs abuse from the board for a good while. Apparently they are going to defend his decision to quit all the way on this, and that won't look good for mob at the sty in court.
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Moohead doesn't like Randy Lerner, the Browns could win 14 Super Bowls in a row and Moohead would have the same opinion. The real problem with him is he knows that half of what he says isn't true...but he says it anyways because it supports his opinion.
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And another one:
Don't think it'll be long until we start to see the same.
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I can't understand the level of support Lerner still seems to have.
He bought Villa as a business opportunity, unfortunately he seems to be an inept businessman.
He has clearly given up on the idea of competing for trophies, or European competition, and is now preparing us for 'financial sustainability' HDE style. At least with Ellis, we didn't have to put up with a load of ham fisted cynical marketing bollocks, and he never pretended to regard the 'man on the terrace' with any respect.
The sooner he sells to someone competent, and more interested the better.
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I can't understand the level of support Lerner still seems to have.
He bought Villa as a business opportunity, unfortunately he seems to be an inept businessman.
He has clearly given up on the idea of competing for trophies, or European competition, and is now preparing us for 'financial sustainability' HDE style. At least with Ellis, we didn't have to put up with a load of ham fisted cynical marketing bollocks, and he never pretended to regard the 'man on the terrace' with any respect.
The sooner he sells to someone competent, and more interested the better.
Awww, did the nasty man do something you didn't want him to do?
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I am still a big Randy Lerner fan.
He is far and away the best man we have had at the helm in the 45 years I have followed the Villa.
He is far and away much better than the great majority of jokers who own the other clubs.
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The sooner he sells to someone competent, and more interested the better.
That falls up there with "Just get a coach that will make us win!!!1". Many people believe that their opinion of how things should be done is the only one that matters and RL is incompetent if he doesn't do it...problem is they all don't have the same opinion. The real trick is realizing that "My" way may not be the best way, the only way or the popular way...
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I am still a big Randy Lerner fan.
He is far and away the best man we have had at the helm in the 45 years I have followed the Villa.
He is far and away much better than the great majority of jokers who own the other clubs.
Agree with that.
Just seems to me the board seem prepared that MON was going to work with them for eternity judging by the bumbling approaches when searching for the subsequent successors.
I doubt Mcleish will last much longer than Houllier.
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Who fancies a guess at MON compensation + Houllier pay off + McLeish compensation, for example? What a gigantic stack of wasted money.
[/quote]
I wouldn't be surprised to discover MON's payoff was just a bright shilling
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I'd say a good owner.
The infrastructure of the club has improved. He has spent a lot of money on the team (and managers it seems ;)). It was not too long ago he dipped nearly 30 million on a couple of players. Why would a man who done just that suddenly lose interest.
He has seen something in Alex McCleish, something he wants at Villa and he has gone out to get him. He has put his neck on the line and I'm sure he has not ignored the fans on purpose it is just he thinks he has seen something we haven't. He might well be wrong. Time will tell. Also fair play to McCleish for having the balls to take on the challenge too.
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And another one:
Don't think it'll be long until we start to see the same.
History repeats and it's painful
Each time Randy hires a coach
Hmmm...
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I can't work out whether the Bent signing was his first example of serious ambition in the transfer market or whether it was an insurance against relegation. Either way, i'm glad it happened, but what heppens this summer will probably answer my question.
Yes, he's better than Ellis, but i truely beleive that some on here are over the top about him, in part because he's 'not ellis'. Football should be all about winning something, 5 years down the line after all the original hype, we haven't, and based on this appointment we aren't about to any time soon.
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I think that there are two possible reasons why we appointed McLeish:
1. The board reckon that he's a MON prepared to work within a budget and will provide safe top half finishes without causing trouble.
or
2. We were searching for manager since the season ended. Everyone that we approached rejected us. Fortunately Alex McLeish resigned last weekend as we were planning to contact Avram Grant.
Either way, the biggest disappointment is that the plan to achieve success by combining clever scouting and talent development (as opposed to spending OTT on British based players) never were a plan but just a hastily made justification for appointing Houllier. If the board had bothered to develop the idea of becoming the next Ajax from the stage of naive whim to something resembling a strategy, perhaps they could have managed to convince someone decent to join us as manager.
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Not too long ago, his name was being sung around Villa Park for signing Darren Bent.
Time to calm down and give everyone a chance.
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The two biggest decisions he has had to make since he's been here he has ballsed up.
I don't question his sincerity or his integrity but I do very strongly question his judgment.
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For the defence, I would suggest that Houllier made a rod for his own back with his comments at Liverpool and the team he put out at Man City, but there were signs of a team coming together by the end of the season. As for McLeish, who knows, give the guy a chance. Who did you want in charge and do you know whether they were available?
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And another one:
Don't think it'll be long until we start to see the same.
History repeats and it's painful
Each time Randy hires a coach
Hmmm...
By each time, you mean that in the 9 years he's owned the team, the two that he ever had a say in hiring. He acquired a bad expansion team and once he got rid of that staff in 2005, he's had two coaches since, one who was an assistant for arguably the best coach in NFL history. His team also plays in one of the toughest divisions in the NFL, where two of the four teams are incredibly strong. It's not remotely a balanced view of Lerner's time as owner of the Browns, and that fan sounds like some of the drama queens we've had on here of late.
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for McLeish, who knows, give the guy a chance. Who did you want in charge and do you know whether they were available?
Come on, we're not going down the 'he was the best manager available at the time' route are we? I didn't buy it with Houllier and I certainly don't buy it with McLeish.
I'd like to know how hard we tried get Ancelotti, why talks with Benitez broke down, why Hughes wasn't considered, why McClaren was ditched, and who else was considered / turned us down before I'd even dream of proclaiming McLeish to be the best available.
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I'd like to know how hard we tried get Ancelotti, why talks with Benitez broke down, why Hughes wasn't considered, why McClaren was ditched, and who else was considered / turned us down before I'd even dream of proclaiming McLeish to be the best available.
The McClaren thing is certainly the weirdest. I mean, arranging an interview and then canceling it...
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for McLeish, who knows, give the guy a chance. Who did you want in charge and do you know whether they were available?
Come on, we're not going down the 'he was the best manager available at the time' route are we? I didn't buy it with Houllier and I certainly don't buy it with McLeish.
I'd like to know how hard we tried get Ancelotti, why talks with Benitez broke down, why Hughes wasn't considered, why McClaren was ditched, and who else was considered / turned us down before I'd even dream of proclaiming McLeish to be the best available.
To be honest, I really don't think it would matter 'how hard' we tried to get Ancelotti; I doubt very much he would be interested. I know in the past you've argued that if you don't ask, you don't get, but I would imagine that even if we did ask, and offered bags of money, he and others of his standing would say thanks, but no thanks. Just my opinion.
I've no idea what happened with Hughes (does anyone?), and frankly it does seem a bit strange but truthfully I'm not sure I'd expect him to do any better than McLeish, or Coyle, or McClaren etc.
I don't think this appointment has diminished my view that Lerner is a good owner for the club. I am in a minority I know, but I don;t honestly think this whole process has been as disastrous as some make out.
I agree it took a longer time than others, but it wasn't that urgent - pre-season has yet to begin. And I can see that the club would do well to consider it's PR side of things (although I seem to recall that Lerner has very strong views on this for personal reasons).
But aside from the actual choice of manager (which is a different discussion!), I don't see what they've done wrong. Dave Whelan revealed we'd asked about Martinez; if he hadn't, I suspect we'd never know. Is that the club's fault? I don't think that it is, really.
I happen to think that the McClaren situation has been spun this way and that and the truth has been lost in the spinning. If we did indeed 'cancel the interview' (and I have reason to believe that this is not the case), then maybe it doesn't look good to some, particularly if you're looking for a stick to beat the club with, but it's not all that unusual.
So, they took a while (at a time where urgency wasn't an issue) and another club's chairman bleated to the press. They released a couple of official statements that didn't say very much at all (which is standard, in my view), and then they appointed a new manager. I expect they'll back him in the transfer market, too.
It just isn't that bad, in my view. So yes, I think Randy Lerner is 'a good owner'.
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If you discount everything reported in the media, then you're free to construct your own reality where the board does nothing wrong. However, some facts remain: we've spent the last weeks searching for a manager, and when McLeish became available we jumped on him like flies on a turd. Whether that was an act of opportunism or an act of desperation is debateable.
But surely we didn't spend the weeks prior to McLeish's resignation eagerly awaiting his availability? Either we spent them discounting decent candidates, or we spent them discovering that decent managers won't touch us with a six foot bargepole. None of the explanations make the board come out of this with any credit.
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I don't think I'm creating my own reality, just looking at the same things with a different point of view. And I really don't claim that the board is perfect. Honestly, I have no idea at all about the internal workings of a football club. I simply think that the process that they have gone through isn't unreasonable.
As I said, the choice of manager is a different matter. I don't believe that the like of Ancelotti, Flores would have come to us and particularly not if the budget is less than it has been. I didn't really believe that Moyes would leave Everton for us. I suppose the point I'm trying to make is 'what if' the board has spoken to a number of candidates? What if there were others, like Martinez, who didn't fancy it - for whatever reasons, be they financial constraints, not wanting to swap 'like-for-like' clubs, wanting to continue their own work where they are? What if Hughes has an agreement with Chelsea? Perhaps those 'big names' assumed that Lerner would continue to spend as he has done? And if he feels that to do so would jeopardise the club itself, then I back his judgement.
There's an awful lot of 'what if' on both sides of the argument, and maybe we'll never know for sure. My own opinion is that Lerner was looking for a 'quality man' rather than a quality manager, and I'm not sure if that's the wisest move but I can see where he's coming from.
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I wasn't accusing you of creating your own reality, even though we all are to some extent (eg, consider the departure of MON: we don't know what happened, yet we are happy to blame MON as it fits with our perception of the board as decent, competent people and MON as a highly-strung egoist).
I don't doubt that we have spoken to other candidates. In fact, I'm fairly certain that McLeish was well down on our list (we were searching for managers for weeks before he became available). And I can't understand that the sole reason why the top candidates didn't want to come was that they were so happy staying put (in the case of Ancelotti, Benitez or Flores in unemployment). It's conceivable that working for Lerner and Faulkner at Aston Villa didn't seem an attractive proposition.
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hes done a lot of good for our club, and i thank him for that...
he has made a couple of huge mistakes recently though...
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I think he has been a reasonably good chairman. He can’t be and shouldn’t try to be all things to all men. He is after all the man carrying the financial can and he has to do the things that make sense from his financial perspective.
There is no doubt in my mind that there was a definite change of policy last year. To sum up the change as I see it, I would say that we changed from a sporting club focus that measures success on accumulated points in the league and competitiveness in competitions, to a business focussed on discounted cash flow, with the expectation of PL security and a corresponding overall wage level.
I’ve no idea if that change was always planned and intended or if it was simply a sudden change of philosophy brought on by circumstances. Either way, I don’t think many people saw it coming. The fallout from that change is something Lerner should accept some responsibility for.
I’ve never put Lerner on the pedestal that some others have because I take a measured view of the level of investment that has been made. Of course his investment is higher than ever before in numbers but it isn’t anything special in relative terms. Randy’s investment in the playing squad and infrastructure is comparable to the level of investment the club made under Doug Ellis at the time of the Share listing and NTL deal. It is significantly lower than the investment made by several other clubs both in historic and current terms.
Alex Ferguson hit the nail on the head regarding McLeish. This appointment makes sense when you recognise that he has proven himself adept at making do with what he inherits at a club that is not investing significant money, which is where we are at right now. I’m sorry to say that he might actually be the best man for the job. It’s just that the job they want him to do isn’t the one I hoped for as a supporter
So Randy Lerner is a decent chairman, which is better than most of them.
Paul Faulkner is a different kettle of fish. His tenure since he was appointed CEO last May has been nothing short of disastrous. It has to have been his responsibility to make the change of policy work in the best way possible. I don’t care if he is unlucky or incompetent, either way he carries responsibility and should be judged on what has actually happened, rather than whether he is a nice guy or not. Too many things have gone wrong during the short time he has been in charge.
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I think that there are two possible reasons why we appointed McLeish:
1. The board reckon that he's a MON prepared to work within a budget and will provide safe top half finishes without causing trouble.
or
2. We were searching for manager since the season ended. Everyone that we approached rejected us. Fortunately Alex McLeish resigned last weekend as we were planning to contact Avram Grant.
Sorry, but that's the second or third time you've mentioned Avram Grant. I know we've been sniffing around in the Premier League bargain-basement of managers but do you really think Grant would have been approached after Martinez and McLeish?
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I'm not sure, I was just trying to make a point: as we moved down the list from nearly-relegated managers (Martinez) to relegated managers (McLeish), what would have been the next step if McLeish had said no? Following the same path it would have been Ian Holloway (who has slagged us off in public) and Avram Grant.