Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dave.woodhall on April 25, 2011, 11:34:12 AM
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Did I overdo it a bit?
www.thebirminghampress.com/2011/04/25/pottering-around/
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Spot on I reckon.
Stoke are an abomination.
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No, it was accurate enough.
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I hate Stoke too. Come on Man City!
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So which team's in the Cup final, then?
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Yes I dislike Stoke. For the same reasons I used to dislike Bolton and going back a few years disliking Wimbledon.
But isn't using phrases like 'anti football' leaving you open to allegations of Wengerism ?
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Yes I dislike Stoke. For the same reasons I used to dislike Bolton and going back a few years disliking Wimbledon.
But isn't using phrases like 'anti football' leaving you open to allegations of Wengerism ?
Hence, "it isn't just anti-football."
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Ah yes, Anti-Football Stoke City.
A shame they don't have someone of the class of the undroppable Ashley Young that can throw himself about on the floor crying, overhit crosses into the stands and generally act the cock. Or maybe a sideways passing crab for a captain. Maybe a player who doesn't have the nuts to go in for a tackle.
Now that, THAT is what real football teams are all about.
Stoke fucked us up last year and they've taken points off us this year. Not bad for team that isn't really playing the same game, is it?
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I would settle for crap football and the FA cup. There was no talk of how awful Stoke are when they were smashing Bolton out of sight last week. They play to their strengths, namely the Delap throw in and the fact that most of the team seem to be built like brick shit houses. They don't get pushed around and they can dish it out as well. A side like Stoke, with it's limited resources, needs to have a nasty streak to get results at places like Villa Park. It's dog eat dog in The Premier League. For a club like Stoke City, results and Premier League safety are all that matter.
Of course, it didn't help that Villa were so poor on Saturday.
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You was right Dave they give football a bad name.
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I really dislike Rory Delap and Stoke. It's such an agricultural way to 'play' football. You don't go far enough in slating them Dave!
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You dislike him cuz his lobs into the box are far more accurate and dangerous than what we get from Young and Downing? Yeah, ok, whatever.
I'm sure if Lichaj gets an extended run in our side and starts bombing them in, you'll be on here complaining how it's not in the spirit of the game.
It's all very small-time. We couldn't beat them. At football. At home. Get over it.
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Troy I dislike him because he was past it years ago and only gets in the side because of his throws. Every throw in for them is like a corner. There's damn all fluidity to the game when they play.
We'll agree to disagree.
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Why, if Stoke's only attacking tactic is Delap's long throw, did the Villa defenders keep kicking the ball into touch, particularly near to the corner flag so that he didn't have to throw it so far?
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Did I overdo it a bit?
www.thebirminghampress.com/2011/04/25/pottering-around/
Not in the slightest.
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I don't begrudge them having someone who can take a throw as long as that. If he was here, we'd expect him to use it to our advantage as well, i know i would. It was the referee letting him take an absolute age in lining up his throws that annoyed me. I don't see why he should get that kind of advantage just because he's got the ability to launch it.
Throw in their goalkeeper taking as long as possible over goal kicks (which mainly involved in him walking from one side of the 6 yard box to the other) and it's up there with Ashley 'throwing himself to the floor crying'.
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Frankly, if I was a Stoke fan I wouldn't give a flying f*ck what other people think of my team and their style of play. Ten years ago I was watching third-tier league football; now I'm getting ready to go to the Cup Final having secured a third straight season in the Premier League.
Sometimes the ends justify the means.
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I dont have a problem with Stoke deploying the Delap long throw whenever it is available.
I do have a problem with officials failing to stop him stealing many many yards along the by-line to bring the goalmouth into range when it is still too far away even for him. Just watch how he moves back from the line, not stepping backwards but turning round through 360 degrees on a wide arc to steal the yards.
I also have a problem with tackles such as Wilson on Downing on the hour mark. It was a definite straight red card. If that had been against Arsenal, Wenger would have been up in arms and it would be debated on TalkSport for the next week.
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I wouldn't want to have to watch Stoke's style of football more than a couple of times a season but I do think the anti-football arguement is unfair.
Anti-football is surely a label for a team whose sole ambition is to stop the other team playing, usually by foul means.
You can't blame Stoke for playing to their strengths, in fact it would be a poor manager who ignored the positive advantage Delap's throw-ins could give his team.
The fact that Saturday was only the 3rd time they've scored direct from a throw-in in 43 Premier League games suggests other teams are learning how to counter them better, so why haven't we?
For one thing, we gave throw-ins away too cheaply on Saturday.
So long as a throw-in is part of the game then taking one is one of the skills of the game. Is it any different to getting the most out of a particularly good corner taker like Charlie Adam, or playing to win free-kicks around the edge of the box when you've got an ace free-kick taker?
Stoke weren't good to watch on Saturday, but I think we're overlooking our own failings by heaping all the blame on them.
I watched Stoke's semi the previous week and they scored some very good goals and played some exciting attacking football. They're generally not my cup of tea, but credit where it's due.
For me the bigger 'crime' is that Arsene Wenger and Arsenal are now getting so much flak because they've gone another season without silverware. Moaning Gooners do not know how lucky they are to have the pleasure of being able to watch that quality of football week in week out. They have been bar far the most exciting and entertaining English league team in my lifetime. I would rather watch that style of play every week and finish mid-table than watch what Arsenal used to produce under George Graham. It will be a crying-shame if Wenger changes their style or leaves.
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They play their game and I'm sure the Stoke fans would not swap their FA Cup final and solid premier league status for playing champagne football in League One. If I was a Stoke fan I wouldn't and anyone on here who argues otherwise on here is lying. If their style of football is so wrong and bad we should either be able to beat them or if they have an unfair advantage it should not be allowed. Okay I don't agree with the way the ref moved Ash and Downing back at Delap's throw ins but that is nothing to do with Stoke. It's the fault of yet another poor referee.
Watching us play this season has been a thoroughly dispiriting experience indeed I have not found it enjoyable at all. I hate it when Arsenal fans moan about other teams style and Arsenal are lightyears ahead of us as a footballing side making their criticism more justifiable. It's not Stoke's job to let us play. It is our job to boss them and break them down like good teams can. Stoke have been piss poor on the road this season and they have lost to many poor teams as well as the good ones. A decent team would beat them. What does it say about us that we couldn't beat them? Their agricultural style of play has won them fewer points than it has done friends. We will finish above Stoke this season and play this supposedly great football compared to Stoke but I would swap our season and theirs in a heartbeat. We have not been that good and we haven't had a performance anything as close to the excellence of their 5-0 win against Bolton and we don't have an FA cup final.
The other thing that gets me about the reaction of the majority on here about Stoke's football is how hysterical and knee jerk it has been. We haven't seen it after the numerous other times we have played Stoke in the seasons since they came up. I don't watch Stoke every week but I understand they were excellent at Wembley (did any of their 5 come from throw ins?) and have seen them play a few times where they have gave the impression of a decent footballing side (I remember them ripping Mowbray's West Brasil team apart a few years back). This opporbium from many on here (especially ironic given some of those complaining have bemoaned us having 'tippy tappy' football) is based on one isolated performance coming after a big game. The venom on here is probably even more ridiculous than that about us on Sunderland sites following our signing Bent.
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I wasn't at the game and we had a power cut here in Bangalore just before the 'highlights' were about to be shown so haven't seen anything.
Law 15 of the FIFA Laws (2008 I admit) states
All opponents must stand no less than two
metres from the point at which the throw-in
is taken.
So - question. How far was the ref forcing us to move away?
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Law 15 of the FIFA Laws (2008 I admit) states
All opponents must stand no less than two
metres from the point at which the throw-in
is taken.
So - question. How far was the ref forcing us to move away?
You absolutely right and the officials cannot be criticised on this point to be honest.
Referees are reminded that opponents may be no closer than 2 m from the
point at which the throw-in is taken. Where necessary, the referee must warn
any player within this distance before the throw-in is taken and caution the
player if he subsequently fails to retreat to the correct distance. Play is restarted
with a throw-in.
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They play their game and I'm sure the Stoke fans would not swap their FA Cup final and solid premier league status for playing champagne football in League One. If I was a Stoke fan I wouldn't and anyone on here who argues otherwise on here is lying. If their style of football is so wrong and bad we should either be able to beat them or if they have an unfair advantage it should not be allowed. Okay I don't agree with the way the ref
moved Ash and Downing back at Delap's throw ins but that is nothing to do with Stoke. It's the fault of yet another poor referee.
Watching us play this season has been a thoroughly dispiriting experience indeed I have not found it enjoyable at all. I hate it when Arsenal fans moan about other teams style and Arsenal are lightyears ahead of us as a footballing side making their criticism more justifiable. It's not Stoke's job to let us play. It is our job to boss them and break them down like good teams can. Stoke have been piss poor on the road this season and they have lost to many poor teams as well as the good ones. A decent team would beat them. What does it say about us that we couldn't beat them? Their agricultural style of play has won them fewer points than it has done friends. We will finish above Stoke this season and play this supposedly great football compared to Stoke but I would swap our season and theirs in a heartbeat. We have not been that good and we haven't had a performance anything as close to the excellence of their 5-0 win against Bolton and we don't have an FA cup final.
The other thing that gets me about the reaction of the majority on here about Stoke's football is how hysterical and knee jerk it has been. We haven't seen it after the numerous other times we have played Stoke in the season's since they came up. I don't watch Stoke every week but I understand they were excellent at Wembley (did any of their 5 come from throw ins?) and have seen them play a few times where they have gave the impression of a decent footballing side (I remember them ripping Mowbray's West Brasil team apart a few years back). This opporbium from many on here (especially ironic given some of those complaining have bemoaned us having 'tippy tappy' football) is based on one isolated performance coming after a big game. The venom on here is probably even more ridiculous than that about us on Sunderland sites following our signing Bent.
Well said.
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Why, if Stoke's only attacking tactic is Delap's long throw, did the Villa defenders keep kicking the ball into touch, particularly near to the corner flag so that he didn't have to throw it so far?
Exactly. A few seasons back, opposition fans were complaining that every time Ashley Young was brought down near the penalty box, he'd stick the free kick right on John Carew's bonce and we'd score. They carried on like it wasn't fair. Well, stop kicking the fuck out of Young then! Same thing with Delap's throws...if you don't want them dropping in on what is a dodgy fucking defence, don't give them away in the first place.
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Why, if Stoke's only attacking tactic is Delap's long throw, did the Villa defenders keep kicking the ball into touch, particularly near to the corner flag so that he didn't have to throw it so far?
That's what I kept thinking. I've seen other teams try really hard to avoid doing that.
Good read though, well written, even though I agree with Troy's feelings to an extent.
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I wasn't at the game and we had a power cut here in Bangalore just before the 'highlights' were about to be shown so haven't seen anything.
Law 15 of the FIFA Laws (2008 I admit) states
All opponents must stand no less than two
metres from the point at which the throw-in
is taken.
So - question. How far was the ref forcing us to move away?
About 5 yards.
The point for me is how long they take over a throw. If a defender took as long in his own half he'd get a card for it. What happens with Delap is that their cart horse centre backs are allowed to trundle up from the back, he spends 30 seconds cleaning the ball and then when it comes in they block, pull and barge the defenders and the ref instead of trying to do something about it ignores it because it is too difficult for him. It is cheating pure and simple and those making apologies for it don't understand the laws of the game.
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I wasn't at the game and we had a power cut here in Bangalore just before the 'highlights' were about to be shown so haven't seen anything.
Law 15 of the FIFA Laws (2008 I admit) states
All opponents must stand no less than two
metres from the point at which the throw-in
is taken.
So - question. How far was the ref forcing us to move away?
About 5 yards.
The point for me is how long they take over a throw. If a defender took as long in his own half he'd get a card for it. What happens with Delap is that their cart horse centre backs are allowed to trundle up from the back, he spends 30 seconds cleaning the ball and then when it comes in they block, pull and barge the defenders and the ref instead of trying to do something about it ignores it because it is too difficult for him. It is cheating pure and simple and those making apologies for it don't understand the laws of the game.
You're describing what most teams do when they have a corner, why shouldn't Stoke do it when they have a throw-in?
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During the game we were discussing on whether Stoke are worse than Wimbledon were twenty years ago. We came to the concusion that Stoke are a better side than Wimbledon in the most part because they have better players. Wimbledon played that way due to the limitations of the majority of their players, while Stoke choose to play that way despite having players like Etherington, Fuller and Pennant (he might be an idiot off the pitch but he is a decent player) who can create chances for Jones and Carew. They just find it easier to force throw-ins and upset the rythmn of the opposition rather than play the exciting football they displayed in the FA Cup semi-final.
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You're describing what most teams do when they have a corner, why shouldn't Stoke do it when they have a throw-in?
Because it is a throw in, not a corner. If they're going to allow that long for Delap to take a throw then they have to do it for every other one too. Given that there are probably ten times as many throws as corners in a game you'd kill it stone dead.
As I said, we've all seen players get booked for wasting time over throws. This is no different.
The other point is that most refs make an effort to do something about blocking etc at corners, that wanker on Saturday completely ignored it. It was the same reason he left it until the 85th minute to book the keeper for time wasting, he knew if he'd got involved earlier he'd have made his job more difficult and he just wanted a quiet life.
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I wouldn't want to have to watch Stoke's style of football more than a couple of times a season but I do think the anti-football arguement is unfair.
Anti-football is surely a label for a team whose sole ambition is to stop the other team playing, usually by foul means.
That's exactly what they did for at least half of the game
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I think your right, Birmingham City are as bad! Give me teams like Norwich or Forest over them any day of the week
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Birmingham are the worst team in the league. At least Stoke try to get shots in and score albeit this is quite often via Delap's throw ins.
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I agree with that Dave. Probably a bit understated if anything.
The predictable acceptance by referees that this is Stoke and this is the way they play and I have the whistle not you is a far worse symptom of the game's demise than their brutal, intellectually bankrupt style of play. I cannot be alone in my rage against the beauty of the game being eroded all the time by the blurring of the rules of the game by weak discretionary refereeing.
What began as a defender spreading himself to shepherd a ball out for a goal kick has now become blatant unpunished body checks. What used to be a throw in to maintain the flow of a game is now a ritual which can take whatever time the thrower wants. Likewise where a throw is taken or a free kick taken can be anywhere within ten yards or more of the correct position depending on whether the referee is looking or not or cares or not.
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It's frustrating but it won't last. Delap has a dodgy shoulder and they can't replace it (they've tried it with others when he's not playing and its not anywhere near as effective).
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Wasn't so long ago that we could only score from set peices, we never scored from open play. Arsenal won't win anything playing touch football round the penalty box, if i were a supporter i would be totally frustrated with the way they try and walk the ball into the net.
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Good article, sums up my feelings nicely.
The annoying thing is, Stoke do have some decent players in Etherington, Fuller, Walters, and Kenwyne Jones, and for that I really feel like they have the potential to play decent football; it's a shame they waste that potential on long throws to Huth and Jones.
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If Stoke's style of play is so limited (and I'll concede it's generally as mesmerising as watching paint dry) the onus is on us to -and other sides- to exploit this lack of variation.
They bagged one goal on Sat via the usual method. At home, we should have had enough in the tank to create 2/3/4 chances so as to render it insignificant. Particularly with them wanting to contain and protect players with a cup final coming up.
If they weren't effective at what they do, I'm sure there would be plenty lining up to pat them on the head and generally patronise them.
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Frankly, if I was a Stoke fan ... Ten years ago I was watching third-tier league football
If you were a Stoke fan ten years ago, then the chances are that you weren't watching them at all. Its quite ironic that so many thousands have jumped on their "bestest fans in the world since the Jawdees" TM 2008 bandwaggon, when the play the most turgid bastard form of the game, where time wasting and throw ins are the entire spectacle.
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Regarding the Final I would rather Stoke Win it than Man City, I dont like the way stoke play but I hate Man City even more for the way they have bought success.
Yes Chelsea and to an extent United could be regarded as being similar but Man City have taken it to another level, if one payer could sum up a team it would be Balotelli!
I dont think Ill bother watching the final this year its as about as appealing as watching a reality tv shows.
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Frankly, if I was a Stoke fan ... Ten years ago I was watching third-tier league football
If you were a Stoke fan ten years ago, then the chances are that you weren't watching them at all. Its quite ironic that so many thousands have jumped on their "bestest fans in the world since the Jawdees" TM 2008 bandwaggon, when the play the most turgid bastard form of the game, where time wasting and throw ins are the entire spectacle.
I remember watching them play on sky the year before their promotion season and the ground was litterally empty, something like 12k attendance, then the next time i seen them it was a sell out, pathetic support really, only there for the big games