Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on March 20, 2011, 08:09:27 AM
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We are in the shit and need experienced heads to see us through.
Since Bent arrived Heskey seems frozen out, despite being the one player who Houllier gets the best out of. He was on the bench yesterday but never once came out to warm up, are we to assume he is now unlikely to be used unless Bent gets injured ?
Houlliers post match interview he said he brought Gabby on because hes a goal scorer and he had to try something. I love Gabby but this season he certainly isnt a goal scorer, and the way he was used left Bent just as marooned and alone.
From memory, I think Heskey and Bent have spent about 10 minutes on the pitch together. If I was Bent, I would want Heskey alongside me. Just as Heskey used to bring the best out of England strikers alongside him, he can do the same for Bent.
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Heskey is yesterday's man and not the man you want in a crisis- we need goals and I'm surprised fonzie was loaned out as he is more of a goal threat when chasing the game, heskey has came on so many times and done little , fonz or gabby are far better if a chance falls to them than the erratic heskey.
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Is the answer to the question " Because Houllier is an imbecile"
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Well Heskey was arguably our best player before Christmas, then Bent arrives and we never see him.
We need to go back to 442 and try and win some games.
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Well Heskey was arguably our best player before Christmas, then Bent arrives and we never see him.
We need to go back to 442 and try and win some games.
I agree we have the players who fit well and know how to play 4 4 2 and then get Ashley back on the right wing and Stuart on the left. In the middle any 2 of Delph, Makoun, Reo or Bradley with Heskey & Bent up front.
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Heskey since Sunderland has been poor when on the pitch , against man city he was awful and has been poor apart from a handful of games in his time here.
As a sub last year he was dreadful in a decent team and If we did switch to 442 it should be gabby or fonz ahead of emile.
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Heskey since Sunderland has been poor when on the pitch , against man city he was awful and has been poor apart from a handful of games in his time here.
As a sub last year he was dreadful in a decent team and If we did switch to 442 it should be gabby or fonz ahead of emile.
Fine Eastie.........Put Gabby up there no probs but get back to a formation we can play and put players back in their best positions (we would need to recall the Fonz from Burnley to play him up there)
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Before the game, I thought a 4-4-2 with Heskey and Bent would have worked well, with Ashley on the wing.
He seems hell bent on the same formation every game though.
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Before the game, I thought a 4-4-2 with Heskey and Bent would have worked well, with Ashley on the wing.
He seems hell bent on the same formation every game though.
The thing is we all have said this, or even Bent and Gabby together. What is really frustrating is he will not at least try 2 up front and I don't think he ever will.
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A friend of mine was in the boxes in the trinity, He said Heskey got up and walked off down the tunnel with about 15 mins to go.
Clearly something isnt right, I'm not a Heskey fan but I would have put him on to get up top and try and hold some balls us yesterday as we weren't keeping possesion in their box or half
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Before the game, I thought a 4-4-2 with Heskey and Bent would have worked well, with Ashley on the wing.
He seems hell bent on the same formation every game though.
The thing is we all have said this, or even Bent and Gabby together. What is really frustrating is he will not at least try 2 up front and I don't think he ever will.
and that will be our undoing. Professional negligence in my opinion.
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We have gone from a very stubborn frustrating MON who had 1 style and didn't like substitutions to a older stubborn frustrating version.
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Spangley, I agree with you but I don't think there's a cat in hells chance that GED will change it, he will persist with ash in the hole and bent up front.
We are in the shit and have 9 men on loan- lichaj, bannan and fonz should be recalled to the club as soon as possible.
We had 2 young kids out of position in defence and 2 fit internationals frozen out in beye and warnock - yes get rid in the summer but when in injury crisis and paying them big wages then use them- houllier is cutting off his nose to spite his face , the club must come first.
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I have been pro Houllier since he came and have backed him to the hilt. But the reason I didnt like O'Neill and wanted him gone in the end was his stubborn attitude and unwillingness to change things around when its going badly. If we fail by trying altenative formations and still fail he can at least say hes tried.
I fear that Ged wont and this could be the beginning of the end. Im currently picturing the captain of the titanic at the helm
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I think not recalling Lichaz when we are playing Herd, Baker and Delph in the back is odd, ditto Lowry who still belongs to us and signed a new deal in December didn't he? Sure they are kids, but at least they are specialist defenders.
On Heskey, he has proved all through his career that he lays on goals for a genuine goalscorer as a partner, time and again. Surely the 4-4-2 with Bent and Heskey has to be given a couple of games. I would prefer Young dropped at the moment. He is poor. Albrighton and Downing offer better delivery wide, Heskey more threat up top. Bent didn't get a kick yesterday.
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Heskey does a lot of work but he isn't a goal threat and I dont think he would be the kind of player bent would gel with- bent is not an Owen type and I see gabby or fonz gelling better with him , but I don't think houllier will change and he will keep bent alone and ash in a free role.
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I really don't think Bent is at his best isolated on his own up front, it's okay if both the wingers are on fire, but yesterday they were pretty poor.
Still doesn't excuse his obvious lack of interest though.
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I'm sure I read on a sunderland forum that Bent is not at his best up front on his own, The fact he didn't get any service from a flat midfield didn't help
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I would stick Heskey up with Bent in the next match. It is a tough place to go to, what have we got to lose?
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I agree that he may well be useful in some remaining games in a 4-4-2, but i think we are clutching at straws to think he would have turned it around yesterday. We were rotton throughout the team, and even Lionel Messi would have struggled to get things going for us.
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I'm sure I read on a sunderland forum that Bent is not at his best up front on his own, The fact he didn't get any service from a flat midfield didn't help
He played on his own at Charlton. But yes, he always had someone up with him at Sunderland to do the grafting.
A big problem, which Capello has highlighted as a positive, is that Ged has got Bent doing more work outside the 18 yrd box. He's not quite the goal hanging menace of previous clubs. With Bent you have to accept the fact that he's not gonna get involved in the game, or build up play. Leave him up with the CB's, playing on the shoulder. It's how he's always been best used, and how we'll get more goals from him.
In addition, as you say, also giving the lad some service might fucking help! He's been starved of it since coming here. In fairness he's netted 3 times, but we could have got a lot more out of him by how.
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The other issue we have is that Ashley Young over hits every possible through ball to him! Bent thrived on Andy Reid and Malbranque playing him in all the time at Sunderland. Ashley Young can't find a weight of pass to save his life, or our season.
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Heskey was playing well when he did play this season i would try him with Bent we have nothing to lose.
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I'd put Heskey back in as well. As nice as it would be, we don't really need another 20 goal a season man up front, we need to try and get the best out of the one we've just paid £18m for.
We need to start giving oppostion defences someone else to mark other than Bent and a wandering Ashley. Heskey for me would be ideal.
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As in cricket, if things are not working you rotate the bowling, try different fielding positions and look at various options.
You don't just sit on your hands in the vain hope that your plan A will succeed.
Heskey should have been brought on yesterday with us reverting to a proper 4-4-2
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Did we win anything in the air yesterday? If we did I must have blinked. If we are going to pump the ball in the air you have to play Heskey. Playing one up front at home against Wolves must go down as yet another bollock dropped by Houllier. They are coming thick and fast.
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A friend of mine was in the boxes in the trinity, He said Heskey got up and walked off down the tunnel with about 15 mins to go.
He did but he came back again. Probably went for a wee.
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I think not recalling Lichaz when we are playing Herd, Baker and Delph in the back is odd, ditto Lowry who still belongs to us and signed a new deal in December didn't he? Sure they are kids, but at least they are specialist defenders.
On Heskey, he has proved all through his career that he lays on goals for a genuine goalscorer as a partner, time and again. Surely the 4-4-2 with Bent and Heskey has to be given a couple of games. I would prefer Young dropped at the moment. He is poor. Albrighton and Downing offer better delivery wide, Heskey more threat up top. Bent didn't get a kick yesterday.
This is exactly my thoughts
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A friend of mine was in the boxes in the trinity, He said Heskey got up and walked off down the tunnel with about 15 mins to go.
He did but he came back again. Probably went for a wee.
Hopefully in Houllier's Kronenburg.
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For those suggesting 4-4-2 who do you suggest as the central 2?
We used it with some success in previous seasons but thatvwas beacuse we had top class players in Barry and then Milner who made it work. We don't have anyone of that calibre now.
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For those suggesting 4-4-2 who do you suggest as the central 2?
We used it with some success in previous seasons but thatvwas beacuse we had top class players in Barry and then Milner who made it work. We don't have anyone of that calibre now.
It can work with Makoun and Petrov/NRC.
We only have a central 2 now, Young provides very little help for them.
Also, is it written in stone that we HAVE to play 2 wingers, that's left us open in the middle for some seasons now.
Chris, are you actually advocating this system that clearly doesn't work?
When things don't work, you have to try a different approach.
As i've said a hundred times, Ashley has 6 league goals as the second striker, he surely scored more than that when he was on the wing.
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I think 4-3-3 would be better to be honest. If we're going to go down, let's go down attacking.
---------------------Friedel------------------
---Walker---Cuellar---Collins---Clark---
-------------------Reo-Coker---------------
---------Makoun--------------Delph-------
----------Gabby----------------Bent-------
---------------------Heskey-----------------
Bit harsh on Albrighton and Downing, and to be honest Ashley can go fuck himself.
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Mark, NRC and Makoun struggled against Wolves yesterday and that was the extra support they were getting from Young and Downing. If they had to play a flat 4-4-2 against anyone decent they'd get murdered. I'd put Delph in there as he is quicker and shows more drive but I wouldn't fundamentally change the system.
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Mark, NRC and Makoun struggled against Wolves yesterday and that was the extra supportbthey were getting from Young and Downing. If they had to play a flat 4-4-2 against anyone decent they'd get murdered. I'd put Delph in there as he is quicker and shows more drive but I wouldn't fundamentally change the system.
If we play 4-4-2, they'd still get support from Young and Downing, why would that change?
You'd carry on with the system we're using then?
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Personally, I'd drop either Young or Downing for Barry Bannan but we've loaned him out. We have a good striker we cannot get the ball too because we have little attacking influence from central midfield other than a winger who cannot weight a pass well enough. Bent thrives on through balls that Young cannot deliver... A bit like the ball from Makoun to set up Young yesterday.
The useless formation we are playing lacks all the advantages of a true 4-5-1 or 4-4-2. Few top teams play 4-4-2 but absolutely none play three wingers. Young is fucking off in the summer so why try to accomodate him in a position that blunts his efficacy even if he wants it? If he complains drop him.
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Mark, NRC and Makoun struggled against Wolves yesterday and that was the extra support they were getting from Young and Downing. If they had to play a flat 4-4-2 against anyone decent they'd get murdered. I'd put Delph in there as he is quicker and shows more drive but I wouldn't fundamentally change the system.
Well Delph cant play there as the manager you admire so much Chris has him playing @ left back
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Mark, NRC and Makoun struggled against Wolves yesterday and that was the extra support they were getting from Young and Downing. If they had to play a flat 4-4-2 against anyone decent they'd get murdered. I'd put Delph in there as he is quicker and shows more drive but I wouldn't fundamentally change the system.
Well Delph cant play there as the manager you admire so much Chris has him playing @ left back
Don't be such an arse.
Firstly, where have I said I "admire him so much"?
Secondly, he was at left back because of injuries and suspensions.
Thirdly, it is at not @.
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Chris in fairness to him has not said he admires or loves the manager, simply that it would be folly to act now and that we should hold our nerve until the summer, a fairly sensible view but not one that will quell the worries.
I agree on playing Delph centrally Chris, and I think Warnock and Beye should be utilised at Everton if the need is there. In fact at Goodison I would still play 4-5-1, but a genuine one, with 3 propper central midfield players in Delph, Makoun and Reo Coker. Young wide left, Downing wide right of Bent but tucking in and playing back. At least the side would have solidity. Baker, Collins, Cuellar, Walker at the back.
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I'd agree with that, Ozz other than I'd be wary of Baker again would prefer Clark or Young if available.
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we are playing 4-4-2, Young is dropping off, but its still 4-4-2. you could argue its4-4-1-1 but it dosent make much difference we are playing 2 central midfield players and 2 wingers
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He wont go 442 and if he did i would rather bent and gabby than heskey- houllier will not change the formation thats for sure, having worked at it all season.
The problem is lack of passion, spirit,and inspiration- the players can create chances but the defending has been shocking all season and ash should be out wide , not in the hole.
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Clark would be there for me too, but is suspended Chris at Goodison. I would put him straight back in when fit though!
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I thought clark was banned for one game?
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He wont go 442 and if he did i would rather bent and gabby than heskey- houllier will not change the formation thats for sure, having worked at it all season.
The problem is lack of passion, spirit,and inspiration- the players can create chances but the defending has been shocking all season and ash should be out wide , not in the hole.
What formation do you think he is playing?
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He wont go 442 and if he did i would rather bent and gabby than heskey- houllier will not change the formation thats for sure, having worked at it all season.
The problem is lack of passion, spirit,and inspiration- the players can create chances but the defending has been shocking all season and ash should be out wide , not in the hole.
What formation do you think he is playing?
4 5 1
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He wont go 442 and if he did i would rather bent and gabby than heskey- houllier will not change the formation thats for sure, having worked at it all season.
The problem is lack of passion, spirit,and inspiration- the players can create chances but the defending has been shocking all season and ash should be out wide , not in the hole.
What formation do you think he is playing?
A shit one
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Friedal
Walker. Herd. Cuellar. Baker
Reo- coker. Makoun
Downing. Ash. Albrighton
Bent
A kind of 4231 formation with ash roving.
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its not though, we are playing 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1. It isnt working and it isnt the formation you descrie above
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Jeez, why even bother to discuss formations ?
The answers simple enough - he's shyte !
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its not though, we are playing 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1. It isnt working and it isnt the formation you descrie above
its not 4 4 2 in a million zillion years...........
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Think due to it being Clark's 10th booking he gets 2 games. In fact I am sure of it.
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its not though, we are playing 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1. It isnt working and it isnt the formation you descrie above
its not 4 4 2 in a million zillion years...........
neither is it any sensical version of 4-5-1. i'd say it was nearer 4-4-2.
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its not though, we are playing 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1. It isnt working and it isnt the formation you descrie above
its not 4 4 2 in a million zillion years...........
neither is it any sensical version of 4-5-1. i'd say it was nearer 4-4-2.
If its 4 4 2 who is supposed to playing along side Bent..........
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its not though, we are playing 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1. It isnt working and it isnt the formation you descrie above
its not 4 4 2 in a million zillion years...........
neither is it any sensical version of 4-5-1. i'd say it was nearer 4-4-2.
If its 4 4 2 who is supposed to playing along side Bent..........
Young as a so called second striker. 4-5-1 would suggest a player a midfield three. It is really neither one thing or the other. It lacks the strengths of either formation but holds the weaknesses of both .
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as i said you might say its 4-4-1-1 Young is playing just behind Bent, like MON got Heskey to play just behind Gabby, If we were playing 4-2-3-1 then the strting positions of the two wingers would be higher up the pitch and usually a lot closer Young.
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Thanks Sand-Bent man , that is what I am trying to get over. We still leave massive gaps in the middle.
and our midfield 2 are often out numbered because we are often 3 v 2 against teams who play 4-5-1 or 4-3-3. We are playing a daft system so ash can play in his favourite position.
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You know its bad and all sanity has gone when people suggest that arguably the biggest piss poor excuse for a footballer ever to wear our colours is going to help us out of this mess.
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You know its bad and all sanity has gone when people suggest that arguably the biggest piss poor excuse for a footballer ever to wear our colours is going to help us out of this mess.
Right, less of that NOW. I couldn't give a flying fuck about player's reputations at this point - in fact, that's probably the main problem with those group of players: obsession with their reputation.
We are going down unless we change shit around now, Heskey and Bent might make a great partnership, and anything's worth a shot. Just get off Heskey's fucking back for once.
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Don't worry Houlier and GMac are discussing playing him as a creative midfielder or Keeper l
You know its bad and all sanity has gone when people suggest that arguably the biggest piss poor excuse for a footballer ever to wear our colours is going to help us out of this mess.
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I don't think it matters what formation we play. GH has lost the dressing room and needs to go and go now. K Mac will at least get the players playing for the club.
As sad as that is it's the best solution I can come up with.
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The obvious soloution is to play 4-4-2 with 3 central midfield players and a left wing allowing Walker to attack from full back. Let Albrighton Young and Downing compete for the start and Heskey Gabby compete to play with Bent
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You know its bad and all sanity has gone when people suggest that arguably the biggest piss poor excuse for a footballer ever to wear our colours is going to help us out of this mess.
He played really well at the molineux this season - scored a brilliant winner - and would have given the number 5 more to think about than heading practice . It would have made perfect sense for him to play yesterday.
Hold on - Houllier , perfect sense .......enough said.
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The number 5 should have been sent off after 50 minutes but that is another story.
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We play a 4-2-3-1 which can also be 4-2-1-3 when we're pressing.
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Its pretty bad when people cant even work out our formation, it aint 4-2-3-1 though
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Its pretty bad when people cant even work out our formation, it aint 4-2-3-1 though
Yes it is. Yesterday it was Bent is up front on his own, Young, Downing, Albrighton behind with NRC and Makoun in the middle. It's meant to be fluid but that is the basic way we set up.
The bottom line is that it isn't the formation that is the problem but the players. Either they're being asked to do a job that've not up to or they're not performing.
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Yesterday it was that a two of Makoun and Reo Coker were being outnumbered by a three of Henry, O'Hara and Milijas.
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Its pretty bad when people cant even work out our formation, it aint 4-2-3-1 though
Yes it is. Yesterday it was Bent is up front on his own, Young, Downing, Albrighton behind with NRC and Makoun in the middle. It's meant to be fluid but that is the basic wayvwe start up.
The bottom line is that it isn't the formation that is the problem but the players. Either they're being asked to do a job that've not up to or they're not performing.
Its not working anyway Chris, he does not have the players in the right positions he needs to get Downing back on the left and Marc back on the right so we can get some service/crosses into Bent
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It's 4-2-3-1 when I am pressing. Four pairs of underpants two shirts one pair of trousers and a hankie.
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I would've actually played Heskey in central defence yesterday!
Not a fan of Heskey but he did score the winner against Wolves earlier this season and would've given Berra and Steadman a bit more to think about in the air.
What was utterly clueless was taking off Albrighton and playing Gabby wide left! I just assumed when Gabby came on, he'd be through the middle with Bent and Downing and Young would be out wide.
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I really don't think Bent is at his best isolated on his own up front, it's okay if both the wingers are on fire, but yesterday they were pretty poor.
Still doesn't excuse his obvious lack of interest though.
Same for me. The limitations of Bent is he has a poor touch, dosen't win a huge amount in the air and isn't lightening quick.
For all his faults, Gabby has shown in the past he can lead the line really well on his own upfront so to me he's a better option if we're playing one up than Bent is.
I'd just go for broke for the rest of the season and play them both upfront, we need some wins ffs.
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He has no plan B either........he needs to get a grip and has 2 weeks to sort the mess out that he has created out
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Chris , i told hawkeye that 2 hours ago but for some reason he sees it as 442- either way its not the formation thats the problem , its the lack of passion and application of players.
Heskey is not our saviour , thats for sure, his display v sunderland was shocking , put ash on the wing and get gabby alongside bent .
We can spend hours on it but we know deep down ash will be in the hole 'because ashley likes it there', and the manager hasnt got the nous to tell him hes not good enough there- sad times indeed.