Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Simon Ward on March 09, 2011, 09:44:31 AM
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You thought van Persie was harshly sent off? Check this out!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12682897
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That referee is a twat and should never referee a game again. At any level.
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The laws of the game state:
"A player who commits a cautionable or sending-off offence, either on or off
the fi eld of play, whether directed towards an opponent, a team-mate, the
referee, an assistant referee or any other person, is disciplined according to the
nature of the offence committed."
It doesn't matter that the person "offended" against was not a participant in the game.
It comes down to whether the player was guilty of violent conduct or not.
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You can't seriously be saying that the ref did the right thing there.
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He made a big mistake sending Van Persie off.
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Edit
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In terms of natural justice he did the wrong thing, in terms of rules of the game quite possibly the right thing.
If the player was guilty of violent conduct then the rules dictate that he should be sent off Unfortunately the "or any other person" part of the rule doesn't make exceptions for tools in mankinis.
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That's the trouble with the rules generally nowadays, referees are judged by their peers as to how they apply the laws of the game.
In both sending off instances there was no common sense shown. Pathetic.
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No way should he have been sent off !
lol funny mind !!
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Doesn't matter what the laws of the game state, in a situation such as this common sense must provail!
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It was needlessly violent
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That's the trouble with the rules generally nowadays, referees are judged by their peers as to how they apply the laws of the game.
In both sending off instances there was no common sense shown. Pathetic.
Surely the objecct of being judged by your peers (like a jury) is that by getting a group of people involved you get closer to 'common sense'?
I am of the opinion that Arsenal wouldn't have lost if Van Persie had already scored 5 by the time he was sent off AND that the referee had nothing to do with them being as far superior to Arsenal as are Arsenal to Leyton Orient and Arsene might like to criticise the skills of his team, or lack of them. If the referee thought Van Persie did it deliberately he SHOULD have been booked regardless.
As there are public order implications shgould players get involved with fans and vice versa it should as a matter of course be discouraged. The red card is within the referee's remit althoiugh one might consider that merely reporting the player to be dealt with by the FA after the game might be a less contentious and therefore less inflammatory way of dealing with it.
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Referees are odious little twats who abuse their power.
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There should be a police check on anyone who goes into a shop to buy comedy mankinis.
I think there's a touch of the Jonathan King about them.
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He was given a yellow card for it. It juts happened that he already had one from earlier. Two others were sent off for them as well so it sound like either the ref was ultra strict or they are quite a rough team anyway.
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You thought van Persie was harshly sent off?
I did. He's clearly hard of hearing, can't hear a whistle in a packed stadium, can't hear females saying no.
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I remember Leicester keeper Ian Walker getting into some bother from the authorities after tackling someone who invaded the pitch when we won 5-0 at the Walkers Stadium in January 2004, I don't think the ref sent him off though.
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You thought van Persie was harshly sent off?
I did. He's clearly hard of hearing, can't hear a whistle in a packed stadium, can't hear females saying no.
Neither I nor Mr Wenger saw it!
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So this is what Marouane Fellaini gets up to on his days off.
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I remember Leicester keeper Ian Walker getting into some bother from the authorities after tackling someone who invaded the pitch when we won 5-0 at the Walkers Stadium in January 2004, I don't think the ref sent him off though.
That was hilarious, the guy was huge and wobbled onto the pitch pointing and shouting only to get battered by Walker
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You thought van Persie was harshly sent off?
I did. He's clearly hard of hearing, can't hear a whistle in a packed stadium, can't hear females saying no.
Van Persie's excuse is that being an Arsenal player, he is not used to noisy stadiums.
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The ref in question did'nt really use any common sense did he really.
He'll be refereeing in the Prem before you know it.
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Referees are odious little twats who abuse their power.
LOL, I am an odious little twat then.
Law 18 didn't prevail here, the ref certainly caused himself more drama than not. In terms of exact application of the law he was bang on, however I would have acted differently.
What we don't know is whether he had an assessor in the stands who's views were such that he HAD to make that decision. Unfortunately when you are on your way up, you tend to be swayed towards refereeing to how the assessor sees the game to be refereed. Otherwise you will end up with a bad score and unlikely to progress. :(
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Referees are odious little twats who abuse their power.
LOL, I am an odious little twat then.
Law 18 didn't prevail here, the ref certainly caused himself more drama than not. In terms of exact application of the law he was bang on, however I would have acted differently.
What we don't know is whether he had an assessor in the stands who's views were such that he HAD to make that decision. Unfortunately when you are on your way up, you tend to be swayed towards refereeing to how the assessor sees the game to be refereed. Otherwise you will end up with a bad score and unlikely to progress. :(
I'm also an odius little twat. Refereeing is the most difficult thing i do. Pathetic amounts of abuse from players and pressure from peers. If the player was booked earlier then it may have been his very last warning and there wont be much he can do about it
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I agree Alex, there's nothing worse than when there are other referees watching you. At least with spectators you are pretty secure in your mind that you definitely know the LOTG better than they do.
Interesting point about the warning, but would you have deemed that as a send off offence, the police were doing a great job in stopping the streaker (note sarcasm) and I bet the players were just wanting the guy off the pitch and for the game to get going.....?
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I always find spectators to be really frustrating, they can be as bad as players for mini referee's and really do try to throw you off. I actually had one player tell me he was a qualified ref and better, chuck the ball at my head on saturday!
Errrm, its difficult, its all well and good saying what i think now, but in the heat of the moment you dont have as much thinking time. I personally wouldnt but i see why he's done it by the law
What annoys me is the slating referee's and linesmen get from commentators at offside decisions etc. Its all well and good saying what they think from the benefit of 3 replays
Until you've reffed, and taken the abuse, no one will understand how it really feels in the middle and cant make rash judgements like calling them odius little twats and people who abuse their power..
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Are referees not allowed to use a bit of common sense?
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He made a big mistake sending Van Persie off.
No he didn't. He was sent off for two bookable offences, both of which were correct decisions.
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He made a big mistake sending Van Persie off.
No he didn't. He was sent off for two bookable offences, both of which were correct decisions.
What was the second bookable offence? He kicked the ball goal-wards it hit the hoardings & bounced backed I can't see how any time was wasted other than the referee producing a red card.
As for the mankini incident why wasn't Brian Clough sent of for violent conduct when he hit the forest fan on the pitch?
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As for the mankini incident why wasn't Brian Clough sent of for violent conduct when he hit the forest fan on the pitch?
Because the ref didn't see it? And the player was only given a yellow card. It just happened to be his second.
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Are referees not allowed to use a bit of common sense?
You have 2 refs responding and in answer to your question , obviously not.
The problem is that most refs become refs not because they have any particular talent for it, but because they were useless at playing the game.
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He made a big mistake sending Van Persie off.
No he didn't. He was sent off for two bookable offences, both of which were correct decisions.
What was the second bookable offence? He kicked the ball goal-wards it hit the hoardings & bounced backed I can't see how any time was wasted other than the referee producing a red card.
As for the mankini incident why wasn't Brian Clough sent of for violent conduct when he hit the forest fan on the pitch?
The issue of kicking the ball away after the whistle is not dependant on how much time is wasted. It is a bookable offence and he did kick the ball away. There is no way that was a genuine shot at goal. He looked resigned as he was taking the shot and when he turned around he didn't look as though he'd just missed a sitter to put Arsenal in a commanding position. It was the correct decision by the letter of the law.
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Are referees not allowed to use a bit of common sense?
You have 2 refs responding and in answer to your question , obviously not.
The problem is that most refs become refs not because they have any particular talent for it, but because they were useless at playing the game.
Now that is nonsense and a total generalisation. I know a few refs that do it because they love it in it's own right and not because they can't play football.
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Referees are odious little twats who abuse their power.
How do you know?
How many have you met?
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Are referees not allowed to use a bit of common sense?
You have 2 refs responding and in answer to your question , obviously not.
The problem is that most refs become refs not because they have any particular talent for it, but because they were useless at playing the game.
Thats a garbage statement.
I started because i love the game, and had many seasons at semi-pro level and had a great time. As do all the guys i went out with. people who want to make these sort of statements have no idea.
It amuses me when people say refs should use common sense, since when did players use it??
A refs job is to apply the laws of the game.
In simplistic terms, they see an incident, make a judgement call based on what they see from the angle they see, then apply the laws of the game...
It woud have been more interesting had it been Havant v Weymouth, as those games are always interesting, i know from experience!!!!!
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Are referees not allowed to use a bit of common sense?
You have 2 refs responding and in answer to your question , obviously not.
The problem is that most refs become refs not because they have any particular talent for it, but because they were useless at playing the game.
Obviously you diddn'y fully read what i said?
I actually played football at a low level and was pretty good at it. I was asked to carry on and sign on for another season.
Players make 10x the mistakes the ref makes at a game. And the players can be "odius little twats". Most people hate the ref's cus they think there the worst enemy.
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You can either have refs applying common sense or being consistent. you can't have both
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That's the trouble with the rules generally nowadays, referees are judged by their peers as to how they apply the laws of the game.
In both sending off instances there was no common sense shown. Pathetic.
its ok criticising the ref for not showing common sense, however you need to understand the Laws of the Game.
Conference South football is a semi-pro league, but its professionally run. Havant and Dorchester have professional football people working at the clubs, and they have a professional attitude, and they pay the players very well, in some cases we are talking several hundred pounds per week!
The referee is in the Contributory League system, which means he would referee the Zamoratto, Ryman, Western leagues as well. Because of its standing, only the top marked officials, officiate on this league, so he would have had a good season to be given this fixture. He would also be in the running for promotion to Football League line, and/or promotion to Conference National. He would have had an assesor and maybe his own coach watching him, and it will be his assesor marks that get him promoted.
The assesor will mark him according to how he performs on the game, and a huge part of the criteria is his application of the laws of the game. If he doesnt apply law correctly, he will be marked down badly and he wont get his promotion. Those who say he should use common sense in this case are well wide of the mark. If he considers the actions of the player to be violent conduct there is only one course of action, or if unsporting behaviour then its yellow, and if that means a 2nd yellow, then its too bad.
If the club want to appeal the decision, and decide sending off sufficient punishment due to circumstances, thats down to them, but the ref HAS to do his job on the day. That means he MUST apply the laws. If he doesnt, then its his head on the block!
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You can either have refs applying common sense or being consistent. you can't have both
I disagree with you there, you can apply common sense and apply it to both sides hence gaining consistency and I have managed that in several of my matches too.
Now addressing other statements, there are a lot of reasons why people become refs, yes there are the odious little twats and fortunately they are few and far between. There are a lot who aren't competent and they will remain at the bottom of the pile in grass roots, cream does rise and those with the right attitude and commitment due move forward.
I became a ref because I WASN'T ALLOWED to play in the school team in the UK because football was a game for boys only. I said screw you lot, how about I referee it then!!!!!! I have never looked back, the sheer level of enjoyment and involvement you get as a referee is immense.
Too many people are quick to put down referees without actually looking at what we do, who we are and why we do it.
I could actually just turn around and say supporters are just knuckle dragging wankers who's foul mouthed abuse is on par with absolute zero IQ. But I know better. Some people need to have a little think before they type.
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Dunno AV1874, I often chat to the ref after Tamworth games, even if they have been horribly biased towards the opposition(!), and they, almost to a man (and occasionally woman) say that they feel under horrendous pressure to apply the letter of the law because they know they are being assessed.
I don't know what level you have reffed at, but these are refs who are trying to make the Football League list and they know that one or two bad assessments means another year or more where the best they can hope is running the line at Hereford.
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Hi Dave,
Yes, I referee pretty high up in the Aussie Leagues and yes, I understand the pressure these referees have.
The sad fact is that on those leagues I tend to referee to the assessor as opposed to referee the way I am comfortable with otherwise I just get a crap mark and eventually discarded off the pile.
People need to realise that the change needs to come from the top to assist us referees in consistency and common sense. FIFA being a bloody good starting point......
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People need to realise that the change needs to come from the top to assist us referees in consistency and common sense. FIFA being a bloody good starting point......
Now this I completely agree with.
We all want common sense from referees, but if they feel that their career is on the line, or at least any chance of promotion, if they dare to apply it then what hope do we have?
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Dunno AV1874, I often chat to the ref after Tamworth games, even if they have been horribly biased towards the opposition(!), and they, almost to a man (and occasionally woman) say that they feel under horrendous pressure to apply the letter of the law because they know they are being assessed.
I don't know what level you have reffed at, but these are refs who are trying to make the Football League list and they know that one or two bad assessments means another year or more where the best they can hope is running the line at Hereford.
Dave, when you say they are biased against Tamworth, i hope thats tongue in cheek. No ref is biased, they just call it as they see it. At panel level ( which is conference prem, the prem reserve league and football league reserve whatever that is these days) its the assesor marks that get them promoted to Football League middle, so they have to apply law, simple as that. They would all be Football League or Premier League A/R so they would be doing better games the Hereford's line ;-), tho some will also go there.
The problem is, most spectators dont know the laws. They just think they do because they listen to what Alan Hansen etc say on motd, and think because they have played at the highest level, they know what they are talking about, whereas if the truth be known, when it comes down to knowledge of the laws, they actually know very little.
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Dave, when you say they are biased against Tamworth, i hope thats tongue in cheek.
Yes of course, hence the exclamation mark, I'm too cool for emoticons.
I've had arguments on more than one occassion in the Tamworh clubhouse when defending refs against fellow fans that are convinced our 4-0 defeat was solely down to biased refereeing!
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Back to the Mankini incident - the player has escaped a ban. The red card stands but due to "exceptional circumstances" the FA have let him off with the ban. Beeb story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12734470)
So the FA can stop a player from getting a ban following a red card - even though the referee has seen it and deemed it the correct action. However they can't punish Wayne Rooney?
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I couldn't see that video so had to look at the youtube version instead.
The first comment below was:
"I wouldn't shed too many tears for Ashley Vickers, he's a low-life thug who should have been sent off a hundred more times in his career for foul play. He's currently banned from most of Dorchester's pubs, along with three other players, for an "incident" at the club's Christmas Party at Wetherspoons. A thoroughly honourable and nice guy, not."
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Back to the Mankini incident - the player has escaped a ban. The red card stands but due to "exceptional circumstances" the FA have let him off with the ban. Beeb story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12734470)
So the FA can stop a player from getting a ban following a red card - even though the referee has seen it and deemed it the correct action. However they can't punish Wayne Rooney?
There seems to be a large grey area there tbh VSM. The player put the ref in an impossible position, damned if you do, damned if you dont...people go on about refs using common sense, but players constantly do things that put refs in a position of having to make a decision. Its about time players started using common sense, as ive said before, this was in a semi-pro league thats run in a professional manner, and the player shouldnt have got involved.
I think what they've done in both this and the Rooney incident is not to over-rule the ref, but in this case a send -off is deemed as sufficient punishment.
Dave-thanks for standing up for refs, as i have mates who have been on the panel in the past and also currently are on the panel. It shows you understand more then most!
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What annoys me is the slating referee's and linesmen get from commentators at offside decisions etc. Its all well and good saying what they think from the benefit of 3 replays
And this is probably the single biggest reason I've fallen out of love with the game in general and my love for all things Villa is also waning.
When it comes to the "common sense" issue that commentators desperately call for, two or three lower-league referees have clearly demonstrated here that often they can't apply that for the reasons given. What disappoints me further is that ex-referees such as Dermot Gallagher actually do so little to argue the case for their ex-colleagues and explain the situation they're put in, instead choosing to take the broadcaster's money and join the controversial commentators' criticising of officials. Hmmm, lot of Cs there.
I've said it before but the broadcasters actually have little or no interest in the "right decision" being made. They need controversy. They lap it up and fill hours of tv and radio time discussing it. They need the officials to play the fall guys so they can continue to kiss the collective arse of the players and the clubs.
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Back to the Mankini incident - the player has escaped a ban. The red card stands but due to "exceptional circumstances" the FA have let him off with the ban. Beeb story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12734470)
So the FA can stop a player from getting a ban following a red card - even though the referee has seen it and deemed it the correct action. However they can't punish Wayne Rooney?
There seems to be a large grey area there tbh VSM. The player put the ref in an impossible position, damned if you do, damned if you dont...people go on about refs using common sense, but players constantly do things that put refs in a position of having to make a decision. Its about time players started using common sense, as ive said before, this was in a semi-pro league thats run in a professional manner, and the player shouldnt have got involved.
I think what they've done in both this and the Rooney incident is not to over-rule the ref, but in this case a send -off is deemed as sufficient punishment.
Dave-thanks for standing up for refs, as i have mates who have been on the panel in the past and also currently are on the panel. It shows you understand more then most!
So what you are saying is that the regardless of whether the referee made the correct decision or not (which he most certainly didn't) that the FA should stand by him and his decision should stand?
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Dave-thanks for standing up for refs, as i have mates who have been on the panel in the past and also currently are on the panel. It shows you understand more then most!
I was one for a while! Had a problem with my right knee which meant I had to take a year off from playing so decided to take the courses (became a cricket umpire at the same time). Never reffed outside of Army games but you do see things from the other side. It made me realise how often I was completely wrong when arguing the toss with refs as well.
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I think every supporter should have a crack at the course then ref a few games just to get a feel of what it is like on the dark side.
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I think every supporter should have a crack at the course then ref a few games just to get a feel of what it is like on the dark side.
Exactly, I did it and it opens your eyes to many iffy decisions
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I've actually bought myself a pair of "spyglasses" which have a camera on them so I can get my view of the game and be able to replay it later on to review my angle, view of incidents, listen to whether I made the call, listen to what I said and analyse my game from my actual point of view.
I am hoping to get permission to test it on the trial local games in the next couple of weeks to see whether or not it is a useful tool to help improve my refereeing.
A lot of feedback comes from the sideline where people/coaches/assessors have the benefit of a wider view, this I want to watch with peers and assessors so that they can see exactly what I saw compared to what they saw.
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I've actually bought myself a pair of "spyglasses" which have a camera on them so I can get my view of the game and be able to replay it later on to review my angle, view of incidents, listen to whether I made the call, listen to what I said and analyse my game from my actual point of view.
I am hoping to get permission to test it on the trial local games in the next couple of weeks to see whether or not it is a useful tool to help improve my refereeing.
A lot of feedback comes from the sideline where people/coaches/assessors have the benefit of a wider view, this I want to watch with peers and assessors so that they can see exactly what I saw compared to what they saw.
Bloody hell, I just used to referee the games!
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I am keen to improve as much as I can where my refereeing is concerned, no referee is perfect, no referee is beyond improvement.
At the moment I am training 3 odd times a week and one of those training sessions is practicing the FIFA fitness test for my national level two practical - I have completed the theory, I now just need to do the test and then complete two games of level two standard under an assessor.
There's a little bit more to some of us referees than meets the eye. :)
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There's a little bit more to some of us referees than meets the eye. :)
Didn't Andy Gray and Richard Keyes say something similar?
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I reffed a bit in some Wigan and St Helens five and six aside leagues, as well as in kids' leagues. Never, ever again.