Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Mellin on March 02, 2011, 11:50:44 PM
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Taylor MkII
O'Leary
O'Neill
Houllier
No wonder it's been such a forgettable decade in our history. Now, this probably isn't the best time to start this thread, all things considered, but who do you consider to have been the worst of the four, and for what reasons?
Apologies to our Graham. I'm thankful for your first spell, and you had us on the back of Gregory's big spending, but they were dark times Allback aside.
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O'Leary without a doubt, a complete and utter ****** who thought he was a lot better than he actually was
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O'Leary without a doubt, a complete and utter c*** who thought he was a lot better than he actually was
And he got rid of the decent players of the time
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GT Mk II
The consummate professional, but dear god it was the worst time ever supporting Villa. Shit beyond belief.
As much a c***curtain DOL was, he was nowhere near as bad as GT.
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O'Leary, by a million country miles.
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O'Leary may have been a wanker, but he like GT was working on a relatively tight budget. Again, in relative terms, his first season was arguably our finest of the last fifteen years.
I feel dirty.
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Yet at least two of those overseen periods of genuine excitement at the club and fostered a belief (albeit temporarily) that we were on the way back.
GH made noises about 7-12 being our station in life from the outset and -the way he's going- might not even be up to that modest level of accomplishment.
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As far as i'm concerned, the credit in the bank that Graham Taylor has in the Villa bank means he shouldn't even be on that list.
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Sorry, no chance. He doesn't earn the right not to be criticised for his second stint just because of his first. As brilliant as it was.
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David O'Leary absolute c*nt that he was had a very decent first season. Also made some good signings - Laursen in which he was unluckly as he was a crock, Bouma developed into a fine player for MON, Solano was superb for the small while he was with us. He also brought JPA out of semi retirement to have a cracking season. He was the one I hated the most.
Taylor Mk2 was the worst. Allback, Leonhardsen, Enkelman, Kinsella, Staunton - Ive tried to funnel that time away in my mind.
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MON - superb - except when he left within the first week of this season starting. I still have a problem with that. I have read the posts for and against on here. Possible reasons. Excuses. All I know is that I was enjoying being a villa fan and it seemed as if we were getting somewhere and then there was a problem with Barry, deferred for a year, followed a year later with Milner. And then teddy went out of the pram.
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As far as i'm concerned, the credit in the bank that Graham Taylor has in the Villa bank means he shouldn't even be on that list.
Amen.
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MON - superb - except when he left within the first week of this season starting. I still have a problem with that. I have read the posts for and against on here. Possible reasons. Excuses. All I know is that I was enjoying being a villa fan and it seemed as if we were getting somewhere and then there was a problem with Barry, deferred for a year, followed a year later with Milner. And then teddy went out of the pram.
Sums it up well, O'Leary gave us something to shout about for a year and Martin Laursen, Taylor was awful 2nd time around but that was the depths of the Ellis era.
Houllier has made some exciting signings but in every other facet of his management has been completely atrocious.
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For starters Sir Graham should not even be on that list.
As for the other three, as much as I want to strangle Houllier right now and as much as MON left us up shit creek without a paddle it has to be O`Leary by a country mile.
Every facet and characteristic of his personality is unacceptable. I would rather deal with someone who is a complete and utter bastard and honestly wears a sign on the top of their head saying "complete and utter bastard" than a well dressed disreputable swarmy unprincipled twat with a false smile who carries beneath that well cut suit metaphorically speaking sharpened knives to stab you in the back with and in his pocket carries a membership card for the The Secret Society of Complete and Utter Bastard Fellowship.
Vote DOL.
PS. Havent given order of preferences. Is this 1st past the post or AV?
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O Leary never got the grasp of how big villa are and always seemed to belittle us and put us down, graham and martin were both proud to manage a club of villas history and talked the club up, as for GED after last night god knows- but I'd have to say o Leary because of his constant talking down of the club.
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GT mark 1 saved our bacon and we could be where Sheff Wed are now if it wasn't for him.
Really shouldn't be on that list at all, he has a genuine affection for our club, unlike the two O'Twats.
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Thinking about it, there do seem to be parallels between Sir Graham the 2nd and Gezza:-
1. Both were very successful managers previously who everyone thought had all but retired from the game.
2. Both inherited teams that were doing reasonably well after large investment, but with some fans thinking the old manager had taken them as far as he could.
3. Both have struggled and will/did finish bottom half.
Main difference is that GT had a huge amount of affection already built up with the fans that kept them off his back, where as Houllier has a huge amount of affection for the Liverpool fans.
As I said in another thread, he now needs a VERY strong end to the season or the pressure on him, and Randy, will be immense!
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GT mark 1 saved our bacon and we could be where Sheff Wed are now if it wasn't for him.
Really shouldn't be on that list at all, he has a genuine affection for our club, unlike the two O'Twats.
Yeah, that O'Neill is a right twat. Just look at how shit we did - consistently shit season after season!
With the luck Blues had, it could've easily been us with a cup in the trophy cabinet last season. But Man Utd and Chelsea are totally different to Arsenal, so we didn't.
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I refuse to vote until someone takes Sir Graham off the list!
It would be O'Cunty though, definitely.
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O Leary never got the grasp of how big villa are and always seemed to belittle us and put us down
You could say the same for GH
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You could argue that DOL (Don't like him) and Sir GTMK2 were hampered by the overspend of JG before them. GH could say the same about the overspend of MON.
I have to say that MON could be said to be the worst because he had everything going for him, addoration of fans and a chairman with money who let him get on with it and then he walked away when things got a bit tough, look at Fergie and Moyes who stuck with their club when money dried up. I wonder if with a preseason and more funds Sir Graham would have done better.
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Cant believe 5 people have voted for MON, cant believe he's even on the list.
Just goes to show how blinded some people really are by their hatred for the man.
Any which way you look at it - Give me a 6th place finish and a cup run over a relegation battle, but obviously some Villa fans prefer a relegation battle.
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'publicly polling' Graham Taylor against DOL is a fuckin disgrace!
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GT mark 1 saved our bacon and we could be where Sheff Wed are now if it wasn't for him.
Really shouldn't be on that list at all, he has a genuine affection for our club, unlike the two O'Twats.
Yeah, that O'Neill is a right twat.
Agree 100%
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O'leary the worst but Houllier is on his tail
foreign managers don't work at Villa, remember Jozef Venglos ?
who could sort the mess out ?
someone like Ian Holloway perhaps, similarities to GT in 87
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Wow
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O'Leary.
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O'leary the worst but Houllier is on his tail
foreign managers don't work at Villa, remember Jozef Venglos ?
I like the logic. Then again, we've also had loads of rubbish British managers, so they must not work either, so we can't actually hire anyone.
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I hated O'leary.
I can't help but think Taylor had no chance to succeed and coming back was a mistake on both parties. I wish he didn't blemish his record with us.
MON I enjoyed having as our manager for the most part.
Very frustating at times but his record was not bad. Some of his signings was not great, that I can forgive, all managers make blunders in the market, but the contracts these players were/are on are a huge burden. Who is at fault for this, I'm not sure?
I don't know why but I really think Houllier if given a chance will go on to bringing back the good times to Villa Park.
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I hated O'leary.
I can't help but think Taylor had no chance to succeed and coming back was a mistake on both parties. I wish he didn't blemish his record with us.
MON I enjoyed having as our manager for the most part.
Very frustating at times but his record was not bad. Some of his signings was not great, that I can forgive, all managers make blunders in the market, but the contracts these players were/are on are a huge burden. Who is at fault for this, I'm not sure?
I don't know why but I really think Houllier if given a chance will go on to bringing back the good times to Villa Park.
Great post.
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Sir Graham of Taylor should be nowhere near that list.Remove.
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Sir GT has 8 votes. Beggars belief.
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Cant believe 5 people have voted for MON, cant believe he's even on the list.
Just goes to show how blinded some people really are by their hatred for the man.
He walked out on our club at the worst possible time, I can fully understand anyone's hatred of him.
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Sir GT has 8 votes. Beggars belief.
For a generation of fans, he'll be remembered for two disgraceful derby games, and nothing else.
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Then they need to look at our proud history.
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DOL, leaning against the dug out, arms folded, with that miserable, slightly evil stare. I can remember saying so many times 'why doesn't he change it?' He is my least favourite Villa Manager by some way.
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Can the 6 who voted for MON explain how, by any definition, his reign was worse than DOL or the current shambles.
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Can the 6 who voted for MON explain how, by any definition, his reign was worse than DOL or the current shambles.
He walked out on us, ergo he's a cunt.
Football isn't all about logic!
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True, but not nearly as bad as the pig-nosed numpty, though.
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Sorry, no chance. He doesn't earn the right not to be criticised for his second stint just because of his first. As brilliant as it was.
As far as i'm concerned, the credit in the bank that Graham Taylor has in the Villa bank means he shouldn't even be on that list.
GT should never have come back but i respect him greatly for having another crack at it. A fantastic manager and a Villa Legend.
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Can the 6 who voted for MON explain how, by any definition, his reign was worse than DOL or the current shambles.
He walked out on us, ergo he's a cunt.
Football isn't all about logic!
Without logic you may as well choose at random thereby invalidating the vote.
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O'Dreary for me, I had a season ticket and it put me off the Villa for a while, well until MoN came in... it was like having my teeth pulled in some games.
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Can the 6 who voted for MON explain how, by any definition, his reign was worse than DOL or the current shambles.
It's not a shambles at the moment, last night was a poor decision I'll admit. However since players have come back, we have been much improved and played some nice stuff. We are far from a shambles.
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It's difficult to overstate the club's debt to Graham Taylor. Took over at one of the lowest points in our history, restored pride and our standing in the game in a (too) short period, and left us a legacy of, amongst other things, Platt, Yorke and McGrath. I believe all that, and I'm eternally grateful.
Voted for him though, as he was absolutely clueless with a very good set of players when he came back.
Sorry Sir Graham, you're still my hero.
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Cant believe 5 people have voted for MON, cant believe he's even on the list.
Just goes to show how blinded some people really are by their hatred for the man.
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I voted for O'Neil. It wasn't based on hatred or ****** factor. O'Leary edges him out on both.
None of those managers were/are going to win us anything. It's all about the legacy they leave behind them for the next guy. At least O'Leary's crap was easily disposed of, and he did actually leave a few good players, better than we now have.
O'Neil was like a kid in a sweetshop with all the money he had. He left us with an enormous wage bill and a small squad. Quite an achievement. We'll be living with the consequences for a while yet.
After seeing Small Heath win the League Cup and Tottenham strump Milan, I could not help but think that it should have been us - and would have been but for crass mismanagement.
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Cant believe 5 people have voted for MON, cant believe he's even on the list.
Just goes to show how blinded some people really are by their hatred for the man.
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I voted for O'Neil. It wasn't based on hatred or c*** factor. O'Leary edges him out on both.
None of those managers were/are going to win us anything. It's all about the legacy they leave behind them for the next guy. At least O'Leary's crap was easily disposed of, and he did actually leave a few good players, better than we now have.
O'Neil was like a kid in a sweetshop with all the money he had. He left us with an enormous wage bill and a small squad. Quite an achievement. We'll be living with the consequences for a while yet.
After seeing Small Heath win the League Cup and Tottenham strump Milan, I could not help but think that it should have been us - and would have been but for crass mismanagement.
I assume you mean that given MON's 100% record in games against the Blues that if he was still here we would have beaten them in the QF and at worst prevented them from winning their first Wembley final and at best actually won it ourselves?
And if you think DOL's squad that finished 16th was better than that which MON left - in shite circumstances, I think we all agree - after three 6th place finishes then I am glad you are nowhere near our coaching staff and that you have nothing to do with our transfer policy.
I am with Percy re Graham Taylor - in his first spell he probably turned us around as quickly as any Villa manager has ever done, maybe barring the Doc in the late 60s but with better long term results. His second spell was truly awful but I couldn't bring myself to vote for him as he deserves a certain standing in our history. And he comes across as as decent a man as you could ever wish to meet.
On the finances point we pay high wages to average players who should never have been allowed near the club. I can blame MON for the signings but not for the amount we paid. As some Leeds mates of mine point out, DOL may have bought some muppets but it was Ridsdale who wrote the cheques.
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Sir GT has 8 votes. Beggars belief.
For a generation of fans, he'll be remembered for two disgraceful derby games, and nothing else.
I think i fit in that generation, it annoyed me alot, but i grew up on stories about McGrath, Yorke Spink (middle names after him!) SGT, Ron Saunders etc etc. Therefore i would not dream of voting for him and really wish i had been around to witness these Players/Managers/Games.
I voted O'Leary though, his first season was only a good half season, and for all the optimism from that, came the dire boring shite, the arrogance and the fact the players had no interest in him whatsoever.
I hate O'neill for leaving us in the shit and with a stupidly high wage bill, but at least we went to Wembley twice and played in europe
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foreign managers don't work at Villa, remember Jozef Venglos ?
With the greatest of respect, that's the most ridiculous load of bollocks I've read in the 13 years I've been on here.
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Frankly this thread is a farce. I struggle to put SGT and MON in the same sentence as DOL.
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O'Leary's biggest achievement, as he was quick to point out to us, was winning 8-3 at Wycombe from 3-1 down.
No-one comes close to this clown.
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The initial question was:- "Who do you consider to have been the worst of the four, and for what reasons?"
Love Sir Graham though we do, if those reasons are results then he's well in the mix. Personally, and without checking exact stats, I'd say Houllier beats him to the top spot due to greater resources to work with and getting comparable results.
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Sir GT has 8 votes. Beggars belief.
For a generation of fans, he'll be remembered for two disgraceful derby games, and nothing else.
I think i fit in that generation, it annoyed me alot, but i grew up on stories about McGrath, Yorke Spink (middle names after him!) SGT, Ron Saunders etc etc. Therefore i would not dream of voting for him and really wish i had been around to witness these Players/Managers/Games.
I voted O'Leary though, his first season was only a good half season, and for all the optimism from that, came the dire boring shite, the arrogance and the fact the players had no interest in him whatsoever.
I hate O'neill for leaving us in the shit and with a stupidly high wage bill, but at least we went to Wembley twice and played in europe
Are you saying that your name is Alex Spink Payne?
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O'Leary's biggest achievement, as he was quick to point out to us, was winning 8-3 at Wycombe from 3-1 down.
No-one comes close to this clown.
Agree totally, he is the biggest clown i have seen 'manage' a Villa team. I can't recall him getting another job in the UK after, every chairman in the country could see how shit he was.
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I assume you mean that given MON's 100% record in games against the Blues that if he was still here we would have beaten them in the QF and at worst prevented them from winning their first Wembley final and at best actually won it ourselves?
And if you think DOL's squad that finished 16th was better than that which MON left - in shite circumstances, I think we all agree - after three 6th place finishes then I am glad you are nowhere near our coaching staff and that you have nothing to do with our transfer policy.
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I'll give you a clue. If you want to make a case for O'Neil, coaching and transfer policy are probably best glossed over.
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foreign managers don't work at Villa, remember Jozef Venglos ?
With the greatest of respect, that's the most ridiculous load of bollocks I've read in the 13 years I've been on here.
thanks
I had to start somewhere ;)
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foreign managers don't work at Villa, remember Jozef Venglos ?
With the greatest of respect, that's the most ridiculous load of bollocks I've read in the 13 years I've been on here.
thanks
I had to start somewhere ;)
Has this site been up and running for 13 years? No wonder posters are above 20,000 replies
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Check out our Facebook page for the answer.
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H&V on-line has had plenty of incarnations. 20,000 is nothing for this one.
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Check out our Facebook page for the answer.
think ive 'liked' the h&v facebook page, not sure if its this one or a different one though
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This one? (http://www.facebook.com/handv)
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This one? (http://www.facebook.com/handv)
Thats the one
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Taylor mark 2 I never got the feeling was going to work, from his few months in charge before 02/03.
I get a similar feeling with Houllier although we won't be as low as 16th next season hopefully.
Never beas that gobshite O'dreary though.
Not sure what MON is doing in that list purely based on the job he did. Hated the way he walked out and some of the contracts he gave to players but compared to the other three?
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Check out our Facebook page for the answer.
do not have facebook
please share otherwise
honest - do not have facebook - film put me off, no wonder it did not get an oscar.
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I assume you mean that given MON's 100% record in games against the Blues that if he was still here we would have beaten them in the QF and at worst prevented them from winning their first Wembley final and at best actually won it ourselves?
And if you think DOL's squad that finished 16th was better than that which MON left - in shite circumstances, I think we all agree - after three 6th place finishes then I am glad you are nowhere near our coaching staff and that you have nothing to do with our transfer policy.
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I'll give you a clue. If you want to make a case for O'Neil, coaching and transfer policy are probably best glossed over.
So if he was poor at coaching and transfer policy and we finished 6th on three consecutive seasons, with the small matter of making our first final and Wembley appearances in 10 years, are you saying he was a genius in all other areas of management to overcome these faults?
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GH is getting me as angry as Pug nose, MON and Sir GT shouldn't be on the list, its close and getting closer G Mac as the mute number 2 is swinging it GH's way i'm afraid, yes he is as bad as O'Leary
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Cant believe 5 people have voted for MON, cant believe he's even on the list.
Just goes to show how blinded some people really are by their hatred for the man.
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I voted for O'Neil. It wasn't based on hatred or c*** factor. O'Leary edges him out on both.
None of those managers were/are going to win us anything. It's all about the legacy they leave behind them for the next guy. At least O'Leary's crap was easily disposed of, and he did actually leave a few good players, better than we now have.
O'Neil was like a kid in a sweetshop with all the money he had. He left us with an enormous wage bill and a small squad. Quite an achievement. We'll be living with the consequences for a while yet.
After seeing Small Heath win the League Cup and Tottenham strump Milan, I could not help but think that it should have been us - and would have been but for crass mismanagement.
I have some sympathy for this view - O'Neill had unprecedented backing for a Villa manager and despite his 6th places and his carling cup final, in my view he spunked away our best ever opportunity to really build something. RL and co will never be in a position to back future managers as much because of the money wasted by him. And in the process he served up some of the most god awful football I've ever seen. Then he shat on the club.
That said, SGT II had lost it and was lucky not to take us down, and O'Leary was such a dick that it's hard to say MON was worse.
If Houllier takes us down he will have outdone them all.
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Pugnose by a country mile but GH is starting to put in a spirtited challenge. The more he speaks the more he seems to piss me off.
His monologue about the Villa team giving up at Man Citeh in the league, how embarressed he was as his teams never give up only for the same Manager to then play a weakened team in the Cup tie there, I think he might have some mental issues.
GT Mk II and MON shouldn't be anywhere near such a list.
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Can the 6 who voted for MON explain how, by any definition, his reign was worse than DOL or the current shambles.
perhaps because this 'current shambles' may have many of its roots in his past performance.
Anyway an unfair comparison 2 reigned under Ellis, 2 under Randy and one of them hasn't had a full season and only one window.
Plus its easy to see from the comments of outrage from some that any unbiased view is impossible.
GT stepped into an impossible situation and never coped.
DOL has the distinction of being a major catalyst in the departure of Ellis and the resultant takeover by Randy.
Mon stabilised the club broght up its profile, wasted a fortune, achived no more than Dol did in his first season with a W mill spend then wlalked away at the worst possible time.
Houllier has at least 9 more games before any assessment can be made
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I can't believe that people have voted for MON. How on Earth did he do worse at Villa than GT, DOL and GH? Madness, and no clear head, devoid of any bitterness, would vote for him on footballing reasons. He did NOT do worse than the other 3, he did miles better.
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I think there's a difference between the comments and the vote.
I know there is, because I voted for O'Leary (no comment necessary) and commented in the context of the thread - villa's 4 last managers - about my disappointment re. O'Neill.
If I had known then what I know now about the disgraceful tribunal...
well, I would probably still have voted for DOL but I would have been a lot harder on MON in the comment.
I bet MON's quaking in his boots.
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So if he was poor at coaching and transfer policy and we finished 6th on three consecutive seasons, with the small matter of making our first final and Wembley appearances in 10 years, are you saying he was a genius in all other areas of management to overcome these faults?
Not a genius at all. His was a pragmatic style of football that was sufficient to garner points on a regular basis. Nothing to be sniffed at, but what is that worth today?
The 6th places he achieved were creditable, but are by now worth very little. The prize money went straight through the club and into the pockets of the likes of Beye etc; the European qualifications pissed out of the window against Moscow and Vienna.
As I said in my original post, as none of them won a thing (Houllier probably will not), it's about the legacy they left. 6th place is only worth something if it is a stepping stone to something better; or even merely the chance of something better.
in my view O'Neil's legacy was the worst, especially when you take into account the resources and privileged position he enjoyed, certainly in comparison to his two predecessors,
You may not agree with this, I am not asking you to.
It would have been interesting to have seen what Houllier would have done four years ago with a squad that included Laursen, Mellberg, Barry, Bouma and even Angel, an emerging rather than a knackered Agbonlahor plus of course the odd 100 mill or so to hit the market with.
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People seem to forget that we took a perfectly respectable 10 points from our first 6 games before Houllier started implementing his changes. If we'd maintained that form throughout this season we would be level on points with Chelsea and Spurs.
Gerard's results record so far is comparable to Billy McNeill's, although a little better since the Sunderland game.
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So if he was poor at coaching and transfer policy and we finished 6th on three consecutive seasons, with the small matter of making our first final and Wembley appearances in 10 years, are you saying he was a genius in all other areas of management to overcome these faults?
Not a genius at all. His was a pragmatic style of football that was sufficient to garner points on a regular basis. Nothing to be sniffed at, but what is that worth today?
The 6th places he achieved were creditable, but are by now worth very little. The prize money went straight through the club and into the pockets of the likes of Beye etc; the European qualifications pissed out of the window against Moscow and Vienna.
As I said in my original post, as none of them won a thing (Houllier probably will not), it's about the legacy they left. 6th place is only worth something if it is a stepping stone to something better; or even merely the chance of something better.
in my view O'Neil's legacy was the worst, especially when you take into account the resources and privileged position he enjoyed, certainly in comparison to his two predecessors,
You may not agree with this, I am not asking you to.
It would have been interesting to have seen what Houllier would have done four years ago with a squad that included Laursen, Mellberg, Barry, Bouma and even Angel, an emerging rather than a knackered Agbonlahor plus of course the odd 100 mill or so to hit the market with.
I can't remember the last time I agreed with a post as much as I agree with this one. Well said, Steve.
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People seem to forget that we took a perfectly respectable 10 points from our first 6 games before Houllier started implementing his changes. If we'd maintained that form throughout this season we would be level on points with Chelsea and Spurs.
Gerard's results record so far is comparable to Billy McNeill's, although a little better since the Sunderland game.
Six games is hardly a decent sample to base an "if we'd carried on with that form .." argument on, when you're talking about 38 matches.
There were also only five matches in the league prior to Houllier, not six, incidentally. Houllier was on the bench at Wolves.
Why not take the five post Sunderland if you're going to look at small, convenient samples?
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For those who voted for Sir GT -
If I remember one of the first things he wanted to do/did when he came back was sort out the Academy.
It is because of this that we are reaping the benefits now - Gabby, Albrighton etc. Not to mention the money raised from the players we've sold that we've brought through.
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Its 6 games because that's how many games there were before Gerard started changing things. You're rigth that it isn't a big sample but it is 15% of the season and was a direct continuation of the form we showed over the previous 100 games.
If you want to look at our current form, which is usually taken over 6 games, we've taken 5 points from 5 league games and thrown an FA Cup 5th round tie because the manager didn't think he could put out a team with a chance of beating Man City and didn't fancy getting a draw.
To be honest, if we took a measure purely on the latest 6 games, I'd rank it well below Billy McNeill form.
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About the legacy thing:-
It's very subjective, but when we had 4 or 5 players in the England squad, all O'Neill signings and/or players he nurtured, that says a lot about 'legacy' to me in terms of the ability of the playing squad he left behind.
About the snapshot thing:-
I said after Man City that he had bought a few players in and it was much more a 'Houllier team' from that point on. If we're judging it from that then it's 11 points from 7 games, which extrapolates to more or less 60 after 38 games. If, and I do think it's a big if, we do sort out the defence I'd say there's cause for optimism next season.
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Graham Taylor probably did the worst job overall, but then he arguably worked under the most testing conditions, as immediately after Gregory left it looked like Doug was determined not to spend again, and we had Ansell making statements like we'd never spend £10m on a player again as we did with Angel.
He still bought some absolute shite though, eg Kinsella, Boulding, De La Cruz, Leonhardsen etc.
O'Leary did a great job first season, started to wane second half, and was dire in his third season. That last season was probably the worst of all managers listed, because we did actually spend some money that year bringing in the likes of Baros. He was utterly detestable as well.
Onto O'Neill, which has obviously been done to death. Did a good job up to a point, but should we have expected more given the backing he had? I obviously argued we should, and despite him buying two new complete defences in four years, it remains the weakest area of our team by a long way. The way he left us makes him an even bigger c*** than O'Leary.
As to Houllier, he just looks to be a complete mistake to me. I think he was the wrong choice for the job, and wouldn't want him to carry on next season. I think he's out of his depth and past it.
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O'Leary did a great job first season, started to wane second half, and was dire in his third season. That last season was probably the worst of all managers listed, because we did actually spend some money that year bringing in the likes of Baros. He was utterly detestable as well.
Prior to his last season, he spent about £16m, doesn't sound that much now, but it was pretty good back then, especially with Ellis at the helm.
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O'Leary did a great job first season, started to wane second half, and was dire in his third season. That last season was probably the worst of all managers listed, because we did actually spend some money that year bringing in the likes of Baros. He was utterly detestable as well.
Prior to his last season, he spent about £16m, doesn't sound that much now, but it was pretty good back then, especially with Ellis at the helm.
Spot on Mark. The wage bill went up a lot that year as well. Whatever money there was to spend, he got it, plus a bit more.
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DOL was the man who bought Milan Baros because he couldn't get James Beattie. That's a pretty damning obituary in my book.
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DOL was the man who bought Milan Baros because he couldn't get James Beattie. That's a pretty damning obituary in my book.
We were all quite excited about the prospect of signing both players as I recall.
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DOL was the man who bought Milan Baros because he couldn't get James Beattie. That's a pretty damning obituary in my book.
We were all quite excited about the prospect of signing both players as I recall.
Well firstly it's not our job to scout potential (and at the time, potentially huge) signings to thoroughly make sure they're not rubbish, and secondly I wasn't on here at the time and thought Baros was a decent player, but for weeks I was literally terrified at the prospect of us paying money for Beattie.
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but for weeks I was literally terrified at the prospect of us paying money for Beattie.
You have to look at what else we had at the time though Monty. Beattie had had three good seasons with Southampton, including one where he hit 23 league goals. At the time we had Angel and Vassell up front, and that was about it.
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So if he was poor at coaching and transfer policy and we finished 6th on three consecutive seasons, with the small matter of making our first final and Wembley appearances in 10 years, are you saying he was a genius in all other areas of management to overcome these faults?
Not a genius at all. His was a pragmatic style of football that was sufficient to garner points on a regular basis. Nothing to be sniffed at, but what is that worth today?
The 6th places he achieved were creditable, but are by now worth very little. The prize money went straight through the club and into the pockets of the likes of Beye etc; the European qualifications pissed out of the window against Moscow and Vienna.
As I said in my original post, as none of them won a thing (Houllier probably will not), it's about the legacy they left. 6th place is only worth something if it is a stepping stone to something better; or even merely the chance of something better.
in my view O'Neil's legacy was the worst, especially when you take into account the resources and privileged position he enjoyed, certainly in comparison to his two predecessors,
You may not agree with this, I am not asking you to.
It would have been interesting to have seen what Houllier would have done four years ago with a squad that included Laursen, Mellberg, Barry, Bouma and even Angel, an emerging rather than a knackered Agbonlahor plus of course the odd 100 mill or so to hit the market with.
Steve, you make some fair observations in your post. However I am 48 years old and in my lifetime we have probably finished in the top 6 on 10-12 occasions and I think that this is the first time we have done so in three consecutive seasons.
I was happy that we had some stability - MON being the first manager since Saunders to stay for 4 years I think - and the chance to move forward, as well as having a squad that would have been capable of finishing in the top 6 again this season. However you say he left no legacy and I disagree. I believe his legacy was a squad that was firmly established as 6th best in England; unfortunately too established and unable to step up a gear to 5th, never mind 4th. We have a fair number of young-ish international players and a very good academy, and I honestly went into every game under him believing we had a chance, even against the big guns, all of whom he managed to beat at least once.
I was prepared to give him another season to move us higher, partly for further stability, and unless Mourinho has a hitherto undeclared fetish for baltis, partly because I could not see a better manager who I thought would realistically come to us. I also thought Liverpool were on the wane ( I was right until Dalglish came along) and that Spurs would struggle to focus on the league and Europe (Dad, I think I got it wrong again) and that we could take advantage this season. Wishful thinking maybe....
MON had many faults - playing the way his mentor Clough did, everything focused on strapping centre halves, a big moose or two up front and tricky wide players, with no invention through the middle; a focus on being hard to beat first and foremost with pragmatic use of flair and speed; the stubborn refusal to buy foreign players unless already proven in the UK, and as a consequence of this, high transfer fees and wages. But nobody enjoyed playing against us and away games in particular were a joy, nearly as much as derby games.
Your point that 6th place last year is now worth very little is true, but that would apply if we had finished 4th, 5th or 15th too. We are where we are now, and after 29 games we are where we deserve to be.
Apologies if I sound like I want MON back. Now I just want Gerard to steer us safely through the rest of this wretched season and have a full pre-season with the players.
Goodnight.
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So if he was poor at coaching and transfer policy and we finished 6th on three consecutive seasons, with the small matter of making our first final and Wembley appearances in 10 years, are you saying he was a genius in all other areas of management to overcome these faults?
Not a genius at all. His was a pragmatic style of football that was sufficient to garner points on a regular basis. Nothing to be sniffed at, but what is that worth today?
The 6th places he achieved were creditable, but are by now worth very little. The prize money went straight through the club and into the pockets of the likes of Beye etc; the European qualifications pissed out of the window against Moscow and Vienna.
As I said in my original post, as none of them won a thing (Houllier probably will not), it's about the legacy they left. 6th place is only worth something if it is a stepping stone to something better; or even merely the chance of something better.
in my view O'Neil's legacy was the worst, especially when you take into account the resources and privileged position he enjoyed, certainly in comparison to his two predecessors,
You may not agree with this, I am not asking you to.
It would have been interesting to have seen what Houllier would have done four years ago with a squad that included Laursen, Mellberg, Barry, Bouma and even Angel, an emerging rather than a knackered Agbonlahor plus of course the odd 100 mill or so to hit the market with.
Steve, you make some fair observations in your post. However I am 48 years old and in my lifetime we have probably finished in the top 6 on 10-12 occasions and I think that this is the first time we have done so in three consecutive seasons.
I was happy that we had some stability - MON being the first manager since Saunders to stay for 4 years I think - and the chance to move forward, as well as having a squad that would have been capable of finishing in the top 6 again this season. However you say he left no legacy and I disagree. I believe his legacy was a squad that was firmly established as 6th best in England; unfortunately too established and unable to step up a gear to 5th, never mind 4th. We have a fair number of young-ish international players and a very good academy, and I honestly went into every game under him believing we had a chance, even against the big guns, all of whom he managed to beat at least once.
I was prepared to give him another season to move us higher, partly for further stability, and unless Mourinho has a hitherto undeclared fetish for baltis, partly because I could not see a better manager who I thought would realistically come to us. I also thought Liverpool were on the wane ( I was right until Dalglish came along) and that Spurs would struggle to focus on the league and Europe (Dad, I think I got it wrong again) and that we could take advantage this season. Wishful thinking maybe....
MON had many faults - playing the way his mentor Clough did, everything focused on strapping centre halves, a big moose or two up front and tricky wide players, with no invention through the middle; a focus on being hard to beat first and foremost with pragmatic use of flair and speed; the stubborn refusal to buy foreign players unless already proven in the UK, and as a consequence of this, high transfer fees and wages. But nobody enjoyed playing against us and away games in particular were a joy, nearly as much as derby games.
Your point that 6th place last year is now worth very little is true, but that would apply if we had finished 4th, 5th or 15th too. We are where we are now, and after 29 games we are where we deserve to be.
Apologies if I sound like I want MON back. Now I just want Gerard to steer us safely through the rest of this wretched season and have a full pre-season with the players.
Goodnight.
That's a crackin post that our Pat.
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Cheers Eddie. Or may I call you Lucky?
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Pretty much sums up my feelings on MON's tenure also.