Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine

Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Archie on February 27, 2011, 12:04:23 PM

Title: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Archie on February 27, 2011, 12:04:23 PM
GH has never been and he is not  my cup of tea, but nevertheless I must say the team's showing signals of improvement.

I think that if we must give credit to GH for some of these improvements (he instilled a certain team spirit, for instance, and he's trying to convince the players that passing football is better than the long balls) I'm also convinced that other improvements are due to mistakes that GH have corrected (considering the value of the roster, I'm convinced that the Villa should always have played at a higher level, and they/we would have done it if he weren't so stubborn):
- first of all, against Blackburn we saw two attacking-minded fullbacks played as fullbacks and not 2 CB (in certain games we played with Cuellar-Clark as fullbacks, c'est de la folie, n'est pas Monsieur Houllier?);
- yesterday on the flanks played two wingers, not a winger and a striker (although I'm convinced that Downing is more effective on the left and Super Mark on the right, but GH has a great passion to play the players out of role);
- Cjeran Clark played as CB, that is his role.

IMHO (where H stays for humble) the next improvement there will be when GH will drop Dunne from the starting XI (yesterday it wasn't possible); it's quite incredible that even in an easy-easy game Dunne made a huge blunder losing the ball at the beginning of the second half, and, as usual, conceded one goal to the opponents (I don't blame him for the own-goal, that was quite unlucky, but for leaving Kalinicic substantially unmarked, he limited to watch him while he was shooting).

And the second improvement there will be when Bannan and/or Delph will enter in the starting XI (credit must given to GH for playing Delph left back though, it's not his role, but he wasn't absolutely bad yesterday, his sideline passing for Albrighton was amazing).

As far as Gabby is concerned, there is no room for him in the 4-2-3-1 formation, as it provides only one striker, and two wingers. I like the 4-2-3-1 formation with two real wingers and one gifted midfielder in the hole behind the lonely striker (Delph/Pires/Bannan), but in certain occasions it is not forbidden to switch to the good old 4-4-2 that permits to the 60% of the players to cover the 60% of the park and to have two strikers.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Clampy on February 27, 2011, 12:09:05 PM
There is an improvement in the football itself,  he's brought some decent players in and you can see what he's trying to do, but until we start playing like it consistently and start winning a few more games, the jury will understandbly be out.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: WikiVilla on February 27, 2011, 12:25:57 PM
It seems he's gradually won most of the dressing rooms support now, he said something after the game about the positivity of the players on the bench which spoke volumes about morale in the camp
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Chris Smith on February 27, 2011, 12:26:15 PM
He deserves a lot of credit for having the courage of his convictions. He decided on the way he wanted us to play and despite setbacks stuck with it and we're now starting to see the rewards. He's also been quite clever in the use of rotation and handling of the young players.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Monty on February 27, 2011, 12:28:34 PM
There are certain scenarios where a team's improvement appears to have been independant of the manager (Avram Grant at Chelsea is an example which springs to mind). This clearly is not one of those cases. The most striking thing is the change of style - the passing and movement yesterday really was better than almost anything we saw under MON. Even when we thrashed teams, like when we beat Bolton 5-0 at VP last year, we never seemed entertaining (not that I'm complaining when we win 5-0, it's just an example that MON-ball wasn't even entertaining when it worked). I thoroughly enjoyed yesterday, perhaps the first time I've genuinely enjoyed watching Villa since West Ham at home.

I agree Dunne's still error-prone, but your standards of defending might be a bit high, Archie, given what you're used to round your part of the world (watching Nesta against Spurs was a real eye-opener, he's still better than most around despite being about 100 years old)! Long-term though, no doubt, we have to improve, but even he and Friedel were almost exclusively playing the ball short, a great sign.

I can't wait for if/when Delph and Bannan start to come good, along with Gary Gardner, Makoun once he's used to the Premier League and even Bradley on the same score is a huge improvement from the likes of Sidwell.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: nick harper on February 27, 2011, 12:40:10 PM
It seems he's gradually won most of the dressing rooms support now, he said something after the game about the positivity of the players on the bench which spoke volumes about morale in the camp

I thought that was an interesting comment. When he was asked about the performance, it was his first thing he said. It does seem like his methods and approach are beginning to have an affect. Winning games obviously helps.

He also seems to have won them over in terms of squad rotation. Fewe grumbles finding their way into the press.

There were a few groans at the make up of the side in the Holte yesterday but Houllier was vindicated with the performance. A mention for Pires who despite his legs not being what they were, was class yesterday.

Oh and Walker is the best right back I've seen down there since Kenny Swain.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Shrek on February 27, 2011, 12:49:49 PM
For original post Downing looked twice the player when he moved over to the right yesturday.

I thought his best position was on the left, but yesturday he was brilliant on the right, as was Albrighton on the left. But this may have been because Blackburn were so shite!
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Archie on February 27, 2011, 12:49:49 PM

I agree Dunne's still error-prone, but your standards of defending might be a bit high, Archie, given what you're used to round your part of the world (watching Nesta against Spurs was a real eye-opener, he's still better than most around despite being about 100 years old)! Long-term though, no doubt, we have to improve, but even he and Friedel were almost exclusively playing the ball short, a great sign.

I can't wait for if/when Delph and Bannan start to come good, along with Gary Gardner, Makoun once he's used to the Premier League and even Bradley on the same score is a huge improvement from the likes of Sidwell.

100% agree, Monty.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: CJ on February 27, 2011, 12:57:17 PM
It seems he's gradually won most of the dressing rooms support now, he said something after the game about the positivity of the players on the bench which spoke volumes about morale in the camp
Agree. It looks like anyone who isn't fully committed to the cause is either shipped out (e.g. Carew and Ireland) or trains with the stiffs (e.g. Warnock and Beye). No need to throw teacups - either commit to the team or f**ck off!
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: eastie on February 27, 2011, 01:02:04 PM
To change a playing style takes time and he has had problems but deserves huge credit for the way he is going about things , I am very optimistic for the future and the jury may be out for some but certainly not for me - we are going places and next season will be much improved and enjoyable to watch.

This team will only get better!
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Rip Van We Go Again on February 27, 2011, 01:07:21 PM
He deserves a lot of credit for having the courage of his convictions. He decided on the way he wanted us to play and despite setbacks stuck with it and we're now starting to see the rewards. He's also been quite clever in the use of rotation and handling of the young players.
Agree with this, he's perservered and we saw some excellent football yesterday.
A couple more signings of his choosing and we can look to next season with confidence.

He made a lot of supporters, including me, look silly yesterday as his selection of Pires paid off.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: olaftab on February 27, 2011, 01:16:25 PM
No credit at all  as a man few rows behind me said yesterday about 10 mins before  half time  "Houllier you are f in french twat why don't you get on the first  f in ferry back home"
I was shocked. Shocked that this bloke knew there was water between England and France and a ferry was involved!

All credit must go to him and I reserve the right to be critcal of him when things don't go right.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Dave Cooper please on February 27, 2011, 01:20:14 PM
Some of the football in the second half yesterday was very nice indeed, granted Blackburn were awful but you could see the passing game Hotlips wants us to play, and we still had the option of the fast break with the wingers or Walker bombing down the flanks.

Can I use this opportunity to mention Delph's pass to Albrighton again, fucking wonderful that was.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: WikiVilla on February 27, 2011, 01:26:07 PM
Tha delph pass may warrant a thread of its own ?
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: eastie on February 27, 2011, 01:28:41 PM
You certainly can dave , I was very impressed with delph in an unfamiliar position . Why the nickname ' hotlips' for our esteemed leader?
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Dave Cooper please on February 27, 2011, 01:30:33 PM
Why the nickname ' hotlips' for our esteemed leader?

I'm a big M*A*S*H fan.

Hotlips (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Houlihan)
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: eastie on February 27, 2011, 01:37:40 PM
Same as dave , every Tuesday night with a couple of bangers! Never really got into watching it as a kid but I remember the infamous no1 hit of the theme.

Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Ian. on February 27, 2011, 01:47:08 PM
With a dramatic change in tactics with a squad of players so used to a style and formation of a manager quite content to have only one style with no alteration is always going to bring inconsistency. It would not surprise me if we lost the next match.
We have got to be patient with GH and also give him credit when it works and also I'm sure he will hold is hand up when it does not work.
I'd like to see this pass from Delph, I'd like to have seen the whole match. I have only had the MOTD highlights and what I have read on here. It sounds like I missed a treat of a game.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: WikiVilla on February 27, 2011, 02:26:08 PM
Ian J, the first half was abysmal, we almost went back to the pub at HT
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Chris Smith on February 27, 2011, 03:04:09 PM
I said on the post match thread that the pass from Delph was Sidesque and that's about the highest praise I coud give. Fifty yards, outside of the foot curled into Albrighton's path. He could be something very special.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Caiphus on February 27, 2011, 03:14:08 PM
If that is after a two week break, imagine how we wil play after a proper pre-season!
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: eastie on February 27, 2011, 03:16:06 PM
Would you be tempted to give delph a run in that position or revert back to baker or Clark bearing in mind none are natural left backs?
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Dave Cooper please on February 27, 2011, 03:28:17 PM
Would you be tempted to give delph a run in that position or revert back to baker or Clark bearing in mind none are natural left backs?

No, with passing like that Delph needs to be in midfield, he was good at LB but a better attack than Blackburn's would have exposed him.
Imagine Delph being in Young's position putting those balls into Bent's runs.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: eastie on February 27, 2011, 03:47:13 PM
Makoun , delph and reo-coker/Bradley? With downing albrighton and bent ahead of them - seems exciting to me , depending on whether or not young goes of course.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Rancid custard on February 27, 2011, 03:57:02 PM
As with most top clubs the word here is dynasty, You can't judge from game to game, more year to year. GH has come in, made the right noises (kids are the future etc.) started stripping out the deadwood (Sidwell, et al) made a huge purchase in Darren Bent and is looking to integrate the youth with established players. It would be a crime to not see how this pans out in a couple of seasons, the quality of football is improving even if the results haven't always reflected this.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Pete3206 on February 27, 2011, 05:13:07 PM
You have to give GH credit.

A few weeks ago, a lot of fans were frothing at the mouth and wanted him out. I was one of them. He has signed some good players and the reported dressing room revolt came to nothing. A lot of dead wood has been shifted and the team is now playing much better. Credit too to RL for not panicking when things went to shit and backing his man. We're not out of the woods yet, but I cannot see us going down now.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: brontebilly on February 28, 2011, 07:44:05 AM
Come on lads, at the end of the Blackpool game which included an atrocious second half performance, there certainly wasn't much room for hope. We won a game against another awful team. It has been a horrible season, if we can put any run together there is probably another 6th placed finish up for grabs which says it all for the lack of quality in the league this season.

There is definitely more of an emphasis on passing but last seasons side had a far greater spirit. Some of you have very short memories of some truly awful performances.

Big summer for Houllier. There is going to be a huge change in personnel. 2 keepers, both Youngs, Warnock, Beye, Petrov, Pires, Reo Coker, Heskey and probably one of Cuellar/Collins, walker will go. Thankfully our younger players Clark, Albrighton who will be first choice players next season and to a lesser extent Bannan, Lichaj, Baker, Hogg, Delfouneso will fill in the squad player gaps. Delph hopefully will break through properly next season aswell as Makoun especially on his Old Trafford form.

We still require a good few signings. Would be great if Bradley can prove he is worth keeping on but I'd be very surprised if Walker stays. It will require a lot of bedding to bring in another 5 players. Based on the evidence so far I think Houllier is capable of getting good players in but getting results I don't think so.

Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: oldtimernow on February 28, 2011, 09:20:53 AM
[
Oh and Walker is the best right back I've seen down there since Kenny Swain.
[/quote]

He reminds me of John Gidman,

Wonder if Delph could play a role as an attacking left back, tackling needs to be a bit circumspect, but good vision and that pass to albrighton was top draw.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Concrete John on February 28, 2011, 10:04:41 AM
As I left the game I knew there'd be a thread like this on H&V and also that within it someone would mention getting 6th again this season!

What Saturday was was a good performance against a poor side.  Credit where it's due we played some lovely stuff and Gezza proved a lot of people wrong, myself included, in picking Pires.  However, we still can't keep a clean sheet and they also had another good chance due to a fuck up in our defense, which shouldn't be the case for a game we dominated so much.  I actually thought the 1st half was OK aswell, it just didn't quite happen for us infront of goal.

The team spirit seems to be back, but that's in relation to the team liking each other and the manager/coaches.  However it is NOT the winning mentality we had under MON where we can play badly and win - Houllier's Villa doesn't have that and we'll need to get it back if we want to do some real damage in the league next season.  In fairness I think we showed some signs of that against Blackpool (man down away from home, playing poorly and still came away with a point), but I still fear we're a soft touch for any team that actually has a go at us.

I think what we need is a real leader/shouter on the pitch - a Roy Keane/Tony Adams type - who will do the shouting on the pitch and drive the team on when we're up against it.   
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: garyshawsknee on February 28, 2011, 10:19:15 AM
Would you be tempted to give delph a run in that position or revert back to baker or Clark bearing in mind none are natural left backs?

No, with passing like that Delph needs to be in midfield, he was good at LB but a better attack than Blackburn's would have exposed him.
Imagine Delph being in Young's position putting those balls into Bent's runs.
I can see this being Delph's position. A bit like how Gerrard played with Torres.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: sfx412 on February 28, 2011, 10:23:31 AM
As we do not know how hard it was to turn the dressing room onto his side, I'd say he's generally improved things beyond belief, but he's far from solved the problem.
He's addressed plenty of them, but looking at yesterdays side, there will still plenty of make do options in there and our consistency needs sorting, as does the number of goals we keep conceding.
Not too sure even now whether he's my man for the job, but he's growing on me.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: MoetVillan on February 28, 2011, 10:30:44 AM
I think we do give him some credit for much improved performances, as equally we have to question the slump after the 2 2 game against United.  I still feel uncomfortable with Pires playing, slower feet and slow decisions for about fifteen minutes was worrying.  But I am pleased with the increased rotations, the use of more of our upcoming young players and the superb development of Downing.  I think its onwards and upwards, and a matter of time until we start hearing his name sung.  When they scored their goal (Clean sheet, where the fuck are you), we responded instantly and even had some champagne football flicks at the end, I think he deserved the plaudits. 
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on February 28, 2011, 10:46:48 AM
I think we do give him some credit for much improved performances, as equally we have to question the slump after the 2 2 game against United.  I still feel uncomfortable with Pires playing, slower feet and slow decisions for about fifteen minutes was worrying.  But I am pleased with the increased rotations, the use of more of our upcoming young players and the superb development of Downing.  I think its onwards and upwards, and a matter of time until we start hearing his name sung.  When they scored their goal (Clean sheet, where the fuck are you), we responded instantly and even had some champagne football flicks at the end, I think he deserved the plaudits. 

When i saw Pires was starting, I thought "Oh, Christ", but I thought he was our best player for long spells.

That Blackburn midfield was pretty much devoid of any pace, though, so I wonder if GH thought Pires would do well in that mix, as his total lack of pace wouldn't be punished. I'd like to think he did, as it worked out.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: sfx412 on February 28, 2011, 11:00:59 AM
Must admit Pires made his and Houlliers detractors weep, but I thought Young stood out overall, he seemed to have gained a maturity previously lacking.
I also thought, albeit against a poorer side, that his makeshift defence did well enough considering, thanks in some part to good saves from Friedel  and only a few errors from Dunne. Thing is long term much of the team selection looks to me like he is papering over the cracks. Dare I say the lack of talent because of the previous manager is the main cause of the problems even now.

No I thought not :)
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: PeterWithe on February 28, 2011, 11:07:22 AM
We've got good young players in most of the positions, how is that papering over the cracks?

Or was that comment made as you seem contractually obliged to mention O'Neill in every post.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Concrete John on February 28, 2011, 11:20:15 AM
Strange that the 'lack of talent' is reflected by the fact the player you think 'stood out overall' was a MON signing!

Seriously though, I do not and never have seen a lack of talent in the squad, just a slowness for Gezza to get his message across and them playing the way he wants.  If anything he's showing there was more talent than we thought by rotating and giving the kids more games, which is something MON did not do.

Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Brend'Watkins on February 28, 2011, 11:34:15 AM
Strange that the 'lack of talent' is reflected by the fact the player you think 'stood out overall' was a MON signing!


Beat me to it even though I thought Downing (another MON signing) was the star performer, followed closely by NRC (another MON signing). The MON signed goalkeeper.. Friedel had very little to do as he was well protected by the back to his best Dunne (another MON signing).  The cameo performance of the day was (another MON signing and much derided signing by some) Delph.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: ROBBO on February 28, 2011, 11:49:47 AM
The fact that MON walked out giving the new manager only January to get players in it really only takes a few brain cells to work it out that most players were bought by MON, the difference could be that he never played some of them.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: sfx412 on February 28, 2011, 11:58:31 AM
Sorry if you Mon fans misunderstood,but I didn't say Mon never bought decent players and Young and Downing certainly fit the bill,
My apologies for mentioning Mon again too, I appreciate its not the done thing, if it was DOL's purchases I'm sure as back then there would be little reaction other than complete agreement.
Thing is if you think Walker, a great move, is a long term deal fine I don't. If you think Delph was bought as a left back again fine, I don't even if I wish he would be in June, and despite Friedel amazingly decent form, he's no long term answer as I'm sure many feel Dunne is not.
As much as I like Clarke, I'm sure Cahill, even Ridgewell would have been as good or better an option, had they still been with us, and as the question asked how well Houllier was doing I used the lack of cover as a reason to suggest he was doing better than many wanted. I'd go as far to say we'd probably be much higher up the table too, if he had, as the early season form when the kids did so well, would have gone better
Still as I said I shouldn't mention Mon and certainly not apportion blame but Houllier has taken on a hard task and is manfully doing a half decent job, thanks in some respect to the help of players like Coker another Mon purchase and some great performances from the likes of Albrighton, Bent, Walker, and co, but his job would have been much easier had Mon bought more depth than the likes of Beye, Warnock, Carew, and such.

Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Brend'Watkins on February 28, 2011, 11:58:55 AM
The fact that MON walked out giving the new manager only January to get players in it really only takes a few brain cells to work it out that most players were bought by MON, the difference could be that he never played some of them.

It's a reply to the remark about the lack of talent because of the previous manager and in particular the slating that was given on what seemed like a daily basis to the signing of Delph.  I'm not a MON apologist but credit where credit is due, he did sign some very good players and one very good prospect. 
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: sfx412 on February 28, 2011, 12:09:25 PM
We've got good young players in most of the positions, how is that papering over the cracks?

Or was that comment made as you seem contractually obliged to mention O'Neill in every post.

Were they not the young players who got us into the mess we were/are in originally before Houllier took over ?
Helped by signings made by the previous manager admittedly.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Concrete John on February 28, 2011, 12:24:00 PM
Yes, he inherited a squad with some holes in it.  But then Warnock and Carew were valuable members of the 1st 11 when he walked in the door, so who's fault is it that they no longer are?  Yes, it's probably the player's fault themselves, but certainly not the previous managers.

For all our talk about this player or that player, both good and bad, it's largely the same bunch that were 6th last season.  OK we lost Milner and had injuries early doors, so from the Man City game (home in the league - Bent's debut) we can draw comparisons and see what each manager can do with comparable squads.   
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team
Post by: eastie on February 28, 2011, 12:51:08 PM
Houllier has only had one month in the transfer window so of course most of the team are mon signings- he made many very good ones and also a few dodgy ones but that applies to any manager .

There will be a lot of business done in the summer I fancy and the team will improve as GED brings in his kind of players, we are still very much work in progress.

We may have mainly the squad of last season at the moment but we are playing a totally different style and system and that takes time to adapt, it's not an overnight thing.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Chris Smith on February 28, 2011, 01:24:16 PM
Quote
Houllier has taken on a hard task


While no PL manager has an easy job inherting a club that has had three successive sixth place finsihes and is owned by a billionaire is easier than most.

If it hadn't been for the run of injuries and personal issues with players then I think we'd be much higher up the table. There was a time around Christmas when things did look bleak, resultys were shit and there was a constant steam of negative stories coming out of the club but that has been fixed and things now look far more positive.

Gerard himslef hasn't sought to hide behind excuses so I don't see whyt Malcolm feels the need to make them on his behalf.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Concrete John on February 28, 2011, 01:33:07 PM
don't confuse making excuses for Gezza with slagging off Martin.  One is just an unintentional side effect of the other.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: UsualSuspect on February 28, 2011, 03:28:45 PM
I would give him some credit and some stick.

Credit for bringing the kids through, trying to play decent football and fucking off the deadwood.

Stick for playing players out of position and out of form and not making changes til the last minute. good win on Saturday but our win ratio under him is shit
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: pauliewalnuts on February 28, 2011, 03:53:26 PM
For all our talk about this player or that player, both good and bad, it's largely the same bunch that were 6th last season.  OK we lost Milner and had injuries early doors, so from the Man City game (home in the league - Bent's debut) we can draw comparisons and see what each manager can do with comparable squads.   

So, it's largely the same squad - except our best player wasn't there any more, and at various points we had a great chunk of them not available to play?

Don't get me wrong, I think GH has made plenty of mistakes and is far from absolved of blame for a poor season, but to pretend he had the same bunch of players to choose from as last year is well wide of the mark.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Concrete John on February 28, 2011, 04:08:23 PM
True, but as I said the point for a true comparison is from Man City onwards.  With that we have Bent in for Milner, a swap most people would say improves us, and the injuries are largely cleared up.  What I'll be looking for is the points to games ratio from then. 
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Dave Cooper please on February 28, 2011, 04:51:26 PM
True, but as I said the point for a true comparison is from Man City onwards.  With that we have Bent in for Milner, a swap most people would say improves us, and the injuries are largely cleared up.  What I'll be looking for is the points to games ratio from then. 

A 57.14% win ratio.
11 points out of 18 in the league and a cup win as well.

Stands up with nearly anyone in the league I reckon.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Concrete John on February 28, 2011, 05:02:43 PM
Fine as a snapshot and shows our improvement, but I was thinking of viewing it to the end of the season and seeing how it then stands up to the pace we would need to get 6th or better.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: The Left Side on February 28, 2011, 05:09:35 PM
Fine as a snapshot and shows our improvement, but I was thinking of viewing it to the end of the season and seeing how it then stands up to the pace we would need to get 6th or better.

I have to agree with you, let's see how we do with a pre-season and summer transfer window first as these are signs of improvement there is still a long way to go.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Merv on February 28, 2011, 05:14:49 PM
Thinking about our form since the turn of the year, we've actually been pretty consistent in 2011: 11 games, won five (Sheff U and Blackburn in the FA Cup, Man City, Wigan, Blackburn in the league), drawn four (Chelsea, Blues, Fulham, Blackpool in the league) lost two (Man Utd and Sunderland in the league).

Not bad. Probably should have won the Fulham game but can't grumble at much else. Team does seem more unified these days.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Dave Cooper please on February 28, 2011, 05:25:50 PM
Fine as a snapshot and shows our improvement, but I was thinking of viewing it to the end of the season and seeing how it then stands up to the pace we would need to get 6th or better.

So what you actually want is for us to have a mini slump somewhere between now and the end of the season so you can point it out and say "I told you so"?
Now Hotlips can pick from a full squad and the players are more used to his style and tactics we have improved, both in the way we play the game and in the results we are getting, if you don't want to give him any credit then fine, but I'm quite enjoying it.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: eastie on February 28, 2011, 05:30:34 PM
I'm enjoying it too and houllier will be here a long time to come hopefully, we will only improve and the football is good to watch , next season should be fun and I feel good pass and move football will produce plenty of wins with it- keep up the good work GED.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Clampy on February 28, 2011, 05:36:57 PM
He does seem to have won a few of the players over and it looks like he's bought a gem in Makoun, but he needs to get us winning a few more games before we start thinking he's cracked it.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Salsa Party Animal on February 28, 2011, 05:47:06 PM
Gerard done well with young players and most of MON players and adding few quality players in one month of transfer window. Imagine what the team will be like at the start of 2012-13 season.

Patience is the key. He have to settle in his job and had old fond memories welcome out the way with Liverpool, and build relationships with the club, players, fans and staff. 

I hope he will make us the next Arsenal (ie before Henry leave for Barcelona)
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Ger Regan on February 28, 2011, 06:00:43 PM
Have to say that I'm taking great pleasure in the upturn, if for no other reason than GH has shut up those fools who seemed to want us relegated just to be proven right about the manager. I've no problems with people having concerns about the manager, but some of the stuff on here around Christmas was ridiculous.

On a serious note, the improvement in passing and ball retention is pretty obvious, and I'm confident that with another transfer window and a full pre-season behind him, we'll be back up near the top, and in a better position to properly challenge for a top 4 spot.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Rip Van We Go Again on February 28, 2011, 06:11:04 PM
I still say that any chance of a good season went tits up after the Newcastle drubbing.

Houllier was firefighting when he first arrived and maybe his methods are now starting to reap dividends, we should see the full benefit of it next season.

As Ger said above, the improvement is there for all to see in passing and ball retention, so it's starting to sink in.

No reason why we can't have a good run in now.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: SteveD on February 28, 2011, 07:14:44 PM
I'm not getting too carried away, we still need a few more results. We were given acres of room against Blackburn, who were pitiful and we duly punished them. Our problem has been pretty (largely aimless) football in the centre circle (exemplified my Makoun - a bit like hiring Michaelangelo to paint your ceiling when the roof is leaking). There's been too little penetration and wobbling in defence. We've been a carbon copy in recent weeks of Tony Mowbray's "total football" at the Albion, and look where it got them. For the purists, let's hope we can hit form, give Bent some ammunition and play our way out of trouble. It looks better but it will only look really good from the comfort of eighth or ninth.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Monty on February 28, 2011, 07:19:08 PM
As Clough said "if you have the ball, in their half, they can't score". There will be periods in every match for every team in which there appears to be no way through. In these periods, it's better to have the ball, even passing around aimlessly, than for the opposition to have it to attack you.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: KevinGage on February 28, 2011, 10:50:55 PM
I said on the post match thread that the pass from Delph was Sidesque and that's about the highest praise I coud give. Fifty yards, outside of the foot curled into Albrighton's path. He could be something very special.

He has that in his locker Chris and  he can take players on and beat them. Ridiculous talent.

As for GH, just like the opening poster he wasn't/ isn't my cup of tea. Unlike the OP, I'm not sure team spirit is his forte. We're still prone to conceding late goals and look like we can be 'got at' when up against it. Those kind of things for me tend to be a decent barometer of team spirit, if such a thing can even be quantified.

We are seeing a bit more organisation of late, and bright passing and inter changing of positions on occasion.  He also did in four months what MON failed to do in four years - sign a goalscorer.

If we're going to criticise him when he gets it wrong, it's only fair to praise him when he gets it right. Rather than suggesting any good results or improvement have happened in spite of him.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: hawkeye on February 28, 2011, 11:15:37 PM
The Jury is still out for me, if the performance against BBurn is indicative of the future then fine. But like KG I am concerned at the aparent soft centre and also with his facination with playing players in the wrong positions, you can sometimes get away with it but it gets found out too often.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: Concrete John on February 28, 2011, 11:52:10 PM
Fine as a snapshot and shows our improvement, but I was thinking of viewing it to the end of the season and seeing how it then stands up to the pace we would need to get 6th or better.

So what you actually want is for us to have a mini slump somewhere between now and the end of the season so you can point it out and say "I told you so"?
Now Hotlips can pick from a full squad and the players are more used to his style and tactics we have improved, both in the way we play the game and in the results we are getting, if you don't want to give him any credit then fine, but I'm quite enjoying it.

Sorry, but where have I said that or even suggested it?

I'm happy we've picked up and look forward to seeing it continue.  I do however do so cautiously as it's only over a limited number of games and putting 4 past a poor Blackburn side does not illustrate we've overcome our issues with being hard to beat.  As I said earlier in that regard the Blackpool game did as much to tell me we're improving as Saturday did.

Try addressing the points I raise instead of putting words into my mouth, especially when you're accusing me of wanting our team to lose!   
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: hawkeye on March 01, 2011, 12:27:09 AM
I think the Citeh game will be a sign of how far we have come or of just another false dawn
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: ozzjim on March 01, 2011, 01:11:47 AM
I think nothing can be judged on a cup game hawkeye. The consistency of results from now until the final game in the league will be the key. If we perform in the way we did against Blackburn, then the run in could be very interesting, culminating in a play off for 6th against Liverpool - I fear we will be more up and down and be around where we are now come may. 3-4 players in the summer of GH's chosing though and we will be flying next season.
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: WALTERS WARRIORS on March 01, 2011, 02:08:22 AM
Ye think the City game will measure exactly where we are right now. And them having a weakened side will see if we have the mental strength and desire ......
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: hawkeye on March 01, 2011, 03:25:40 AM
My point is that there have been a number of occaisions this season when a big game has come up and we have  failed to deliver. The pre christmas excuses have run out now, he has  a pretty full squad to choose from, confidence should be high after the BBurn game, Citeh are in a tricky situation. If thier players turn up and we get outclassed fair enough, but we should be able to give them a real game, for me this is a real test of GH credentials
Title: Re: How much we must give credit to the manager for the improvements of the team?
Post by: eastie on March 01, 2011, 09:01:22 AM
I don't think he's so much playing players deliberately out of position as assessing his squad and seeing what players are capable of playing in what roles, some have adapted more than others and he now probably has a good idea of all his playing staff and their capabilities and what he needs for the future and who he can do without.

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