Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Holtenderinthesky on February 05, 2011, 06:02:26 PM
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As much as I love having Darren Bent at the club it has become obvious to me that if he does not get the required service then his chances will be limited and therefore may not get the goals we know he is capable of. Have we criticised Carew, Heskey and Gabby too much for not scoring when the service at times (mostly) is bloody awful? Take today for example, Bent was left chasing lost causes due to piss poor attempted through balls from Ashley Young and every time Downing had a chance to slip it through or cross he seemed to go for goal. I know that Bent is a top finisher and we definitely could do with one of those but only IF we get him the service. So, where is that service going to come from? Bannan would be an obvious choice but has seemingly gone missing and Delph seems to have disappeared too. Is it a question of getting Downing and Ash in their proper positions? How are we going to get Bent involved in the right areas?
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Absolutely.
Today we missed the incisiveness of Albrighton and I think Bannan could add a dimension we lack from central midfield. Ironically, the three wingers system is actually making us LESS creative!
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Bannan especially has to play. Easily our brightest and best technical player in central areas in the final third. I can't imagine that, when GH wanted to change things, he looked along the bench, saw Pires and thought "good selection, Gerard" to himself.
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Young's crossing has been awful for ages now, Downing is hit and miss with his crossing, Agbonlahor is just shit and isn't a left winger so provides nothing. Even Walker was getting in on the act today, his crossing was poor aswell. As for general creativity from midfield, there isn't any and hasn't been for years.
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It will be fine after a full pre-season/we sign Messi.
This allows me a supplementary question: how many Indian restaurants are there in Palma, and which are the best? (Will be on a three-day piss-up on from the 28th Feb)
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We definately need creativity in the middle. The play is far too predictable and easy to counter when you have 3 wingers.
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Young's crossing has been awful for ages now, Downing is hit and miss with his crossing, Agbonlahor is just shit and isn't a left winger so provides nothing.
Agree with the Ash Young comment and that Agbonlahor isn't a left winger, but saying 'he is just shit' isn't exactly fair. To be fair, he has been injured and then when played has been played out of position alot this season. I totally disagree with he's just shit
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It will be fine after a full pre-season/we sign Messi.
This allows me a supplementary question: how many Indian restaurants are there in Palma, and which are the best? (Will be on a three-day piss-up on from the 28th Feb)
There are a plethora of Indian restaurants here but the best, by far, is one called Namaste and the address is Torrente, 5 just off the Paseo Maritimo and behind an "Irish" pub called the Shamrock. The best Indian food I have eaten in years. I love it. Hmm, you've given me an idea!
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Young and Albrighton back playing on the wings.
Problem solved.
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Young's crossing has been awful for ages now, Downing is hit and miss with his crossing, Agbonlahor is just shit and isn't a left winger so provides nothing.
Agree with the Ash Young comment and that Agbonlahor isn't a left winger, but saying 'he is just shit' isn't exactly fair. To be fair, he has been injured and then when played has been played out of position alot this season. I totally disagree with he's just shit
Fair enough thats your opinion but even as a striker i always said Agbonlahor is a very average and limited footballer with very little actual football ability and no footballing brain what so ever. A striker with a brain could easily play on the left wing, it's not like he's playing full back or in goal, but he looks lost.
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I think it is time to shift AY back to the wing aswell and bring Bannan back in he can be the key that opens the door for Bent to score.
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Young's crossing has been awful for ages now, Downing is hit and miss with his crossing, Agbonlahor is just shit and isn't a left winger so provides nothing.
Agree with the Ash Young comment and that Agbonlahor isn't a left winger, but saying 'he is just shit' isn't exactly fair. To be fair, he has been injured and then when played has been played out of position alot this season. I totally disagree with he's just shit
Fair enough thats your opinion but even as a striker i always said Agbonlahor is a very average and limited footballer with very little actual football ability and no footballing brain what so ever. A striker with a brain could easily play on the left wing, it's not like he's playing full back or in goal, but he looks lost.
He hasnt got a football brain ill give you that. But his position is striker where he sprints and scares the shit out of defenders. 1 on 1's dont work but he can occasionally finish and i think he's above average
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It will be fine after a full pre-season/we sign Messi.
This allows me a supplementary question: how many Indian restaurants are there in Palma, and which are the best? (Will be on a three-day piss-up on from the 28th Feb)
Palma Majorca? If so, Baisakhi on the sea front (Paseo Maritimo).
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Young and Albrighton back playing on the wings.
Problem solved.
Agreed. And Gabby up front please. Just 442, simple as that.
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Young and Albrighton back playing on the wings.
Problem solved.
Agreed. And Gabby up front please. Just 442, simple as that.
But with who as the 2 in the middle? Makoun and ...?
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Young and Albrighton back playing on the wings.
Problem solved.
Agreed. And Gabby up front please. Just 442, simple as that.
Yeah, looked unstoppably deadly when we did that today.
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ASh left hand side downing/albrighton right side and play either gabby/heskey & bent upfront or Makoun Bannan and rio coker/petrov midfield.
I think today showed Petrov needs to go and Downing shouldnt go central midfield when switching to 4-4-2
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The service was woeful today and having watched Makoun again, i dont think he's the creative spark, he a solid "water carrier" which means in home games where we should be more offensive I dont think we can play him and Petrov
Ironically the tippy tappy game we are playing (mostly in our own half) means we no longer do what we used to do best - break with pace
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Young and Albrighton back playing on the wings.
Problem solved.
Agreed. And Gabby up front please. Just 442, simple as that.
But with who as the 2 in the middle? Makoun and ...?
Makoun and one of petrov, downing, reo-coker, bannan, delph, bradley. We are not short on people to play in the middle. I actually think downing would do a good job in the centre.
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Ironically the tippy tappy game we are playing (mostly in our own half) means we no longer what we used to do best - break with pace
How exactly do you 'break with pace' against an eleven man defence?
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The insistance of playing Gabby on the left and Ashley behind Bent is absolutely baffling to me
I'd sooner see Gabby dropped and Heskey in there for a straight 4 - 4 - 2
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ASh left hand side downing/albrighton right side and play either gabby/heskey & bent upfront or Makoun Bannan and rio coker/petrov midfield.
I think today showed Petrov needs to go and Downing shouldnt go central midfield when switching to 4-4-2
That leaves 3 at the back. If your midfield and forward line are:
Downing Makoun Bannan Petrov Young
Bent Gabby
Edit: Oh now I see what you mean. ;)
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Bent had no chance today against Hangeland, Makoun worked well but needed a creative midfielder next to him as Petrov's legs had gone, the whole formation didn't work well today as Gabby didn't look arsed and Downing was on the wrong side. Anyway Walker looked good and Clark is not a left back who can get up and down and support the wingers but we are in transition so GH will work it out i'm sure.
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Its not the tippy tappy thing that is the main problem. We have 3 of the best wingers in the league, yet for some reason, we are playing with a right footed striker on the left wing, a left footed winger on the right wing, and our best winger in 'the hole'. The idea isnt to whip balls into the box and provide the service to the striker, its for the wide men to cut inside and influence play that way. If it works, its a good idea, but its not.
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Bent had no chance today against Hangeland, Makoun worked well but needed a creative midfielder next to him as Petrov's legs had gone, the whole formation didn't work well today as Gabby didn't look arsed and Downing was on the wrong side. Anyway Walker looked good and Clark is not a left back who can get up and down and support the wingers but we are in transition so GH will work it out i'm sure.
Transition is right. For all the negatives, I actually enjoyed watching the Villa knocking it about a bit. Our passing has improved significantly in the past month.
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Your Joking right about Downing in the middle i can live with him not making a takle as winger but in middle of the park you do have to put your foot in now and then
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It's simple really.
We've got so many options I don't know why Houllier feels inclined to have to play certain players.
It's all about rotation, don't be afraid to make the most of the squad. If one or two of our players who've done well for us in the past but might have to leave them out the team to better the team... then so be it!
We shouldn't feel like we need to persist with one team, we've got two really good teams we could play.
Albrighton - Bradley - Makoun - Young
Gabby - Bent
OR
Bradley - Makoun - Delph
Gabby - Bent - Young
OR
Young - Makoun - Delph/Bradley - Downing
Bent - Heskey
All three look good on paper, can work and I believe would work well.
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We have loads of service - what's all the moaning about.
It's just shit, overhit and missplaced most of the time.
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before we start throwing Bradley and Delph in the team weve got to see them both play a few games
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It will be fine after a full pre-season/we sign Messi.
This allows me a supplementary question: how many Indian restaurants are there in Palma, and which are the best? (Will be on a three-day piss-up on from the 28th Feb)
There are a plethora of Indian restaurants here but the best, by far, is one called Namaste and the address is Torrente, 5 just off the Paseo Maritimo and behind an "Irish" pub called the Shamrock. The best Indian food I have eaten in years. I love it. Hmm, you've given me an idea!
Cheers, we've rented a flat on the Plaza Mayor, so if you are around I'll buy a beer! Sorry to hijack thread, but you will all agree that Indian food is very important.
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before we start throwing Bradley and Delph in the team weve got to see them both play a few games
Spot on, 3 or 4 games in the reserves if they can get a game
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Also Kyle Walker have overhit the cross which would be a goal but Bent can't jump that high. There is too many long ball and not enough byline crossing. I think Bent isn't a player who make thing happens as he rely on good service like a certain Gary Lineker.
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I think its going to take the players a bit of time to work out how Bent makes his runs etc.
We came close a few times today to threading him in.
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It's true what Sunderland fans said, he never makes a goal for himself he only scores tap ins with the occasional good header.
It's like playing with 10 men.
Am I wrong?
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It's true what Sunderland fans said, he never makes a goal for himself he only scores tap ins with the occasional good header.
It's like playing with 10 men.
Am I wrong?
10 players + 1 goal machine if you feed him
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So who is our Peter Beardsley :)
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That's why Adam was chased and why we may have a problem until we can get a real creative force in there.
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Nightmare scenario is that Bents goals dry up playing for us.
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We're effectively trying to neutralise our attacking threat, by:
a) Playing Gabby on the wing
b) Playing Young and Downing out of position
c) Not giving Bent the service that he might have got with both Young and Downing in their natural positions.
In short, we're doing everything we possibly can to make our attack less effective, short of nailing Bent's right foot to a grand piano, or locking Gabby in an oversized tea chest.
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Keep Makoun in midfield, bring in Bradley and Bannan/Delph, and you will have better passers in the team.Then the wide players can be between Downing/AYoung /Albrighton and Gabby , they can compete for the positions.
Bent will score if you feed him, he always has, if he stops its because we don't create enough.
Some of our supposed better players need to step up to the plate.
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It's true what Sunderland fans said, he never makes a goal for himself he only scores tap ins with the occasional good header.
It's like playing with 10 men.
Am I wrong?
Isn't that a bit like saying that all teams play with 10 men cos the goalkeeper does nothing but make saves? Darren Bent's job is to put the ball in the net, nothing more, nothing less and he will do that given the service.
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We're effectively trying to neutralise our attacking threat, by:
a) Playing Gabby on the wing
b) Playing Young and Downing out of position
c) Not giving Bent the service that he might have got with both Young and Downing in their natural positions.
In short, we're doing everything we possibly can to make our attack less effective, short of nailing Bent's right foot to a grand piano, or locking Gabby in an oversized tea chest.
Bullseye! We have spent 18 months putting balls in the box with no one there to get on the end of them. We finally get that man and we move the team around to accomodate a pacey yet far from 1st class striker at LM and a stroppy winger, who can be devastingly good on his day, through the middle. Low and behold decent balls into the box have stopped with no decent wide threat.
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2 goals in 4 games and should've scored one today.
The service is shit. I only hope he carries on being given shit service so he can only score an average of a goal every two games.
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2 goals in 4 games and should've scored one today.
The service is shit. I only hope he carries on being given shit service so he can only score an average of a goal every two games.
What an insightful post that is. So how many chances have we created for him? How many shots at goal have we had in the last 4 games? Was it 2 today? You seem to think I am knocking Bent when in actual fact I am doing the OPPOSITE. If he has grabbed 2 in 4 from very few chances then what could he do with MORE chances? You ought to think before you type I think.
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Cannot see houllier going 442 , he is a man who likes the 433 and I think ash will go in the summer , as for gabby I think he will be mainly on the bench.
I would use albrighton and downing out wide supporting bent and providing the ammunition, with makoun holding in midfield alongside Bradley and bannan , who would provide creative flair.
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Cannot see houllier going 442 , he is a man who likes the 433 and I think ash will go in the summer , as for gabby I think he will be mainly on the bench.
I would use albrighton and downing out wide supporting bent and providing the ammunition, with makoun holding in midfield alongside Bradley and bannan , who would provide creative flair.
I like the idea in theory but there is one snag......Bradley has never played a single Premier League game! He seems to be banded about as the answer to our woes but to suggest that he will form part of a midfield 3 NEXT season (if that's what you meant by the omission of AY)when he is only on loan until May is a bit OTT at the moment. I hope you are right and he IS the answer but let's see him play first. As I say, I agree with that team in principle but let's see what he can do before piling the pressure on him.
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True, but Bradley is an experienced international who has played in 2 European leagues already and we do have an option to buy him in the summer, I have no doubt he will improve the side immensely .
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True, but Bradley is an experienced international who has played in 2 European leagues already and we do have an option to buy him in the summer, I have no doubt he will improve the side immensely .
I so hope you are right, that'd be brilliant. Is there no place for Delph then?
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Houllier has always liked to rotate and I'm sure delph would get his fair share of games as would gabby and the other squad players, the days of a first Choice regular 11 are dated to a degree and I'm sure he will utilise his squad .
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There were one or two times that the ball was nearly there if Bent had got on the end this thread wouldn't be here.
I think Downing was one of our better players today but I agree I don't like Agbonlahor on the wing or young in the hole
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There were one or two times that the ball was nearly there if Bent had got on the end this thread wouldn't be here.
Yes but that's the point of the thread. Bent didn't get on the end of them because they were overhit; Hence, poor service.
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I think downing was our best player today , there were some wayward crosses but it was also very windy and that may have contributed as walker got in some great positions but overhit the ball, the end product today from ash and gabby was extremely poor .
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If the idea is to get Bent in Then A static 4-4-1-1 with both wide men not comfortable enough to play the ball first time with thier wrong foot and the support player Young unable to deliver the quick incisive pass. Neither of the 2 central midfield players running into space, our build up play is slow and predictable and very easy to snuff out
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There were one or two times that the ball was nearly there if Bent had got on the end this thread wouldn't be here.
Yes but that's the point of the thread. Bent didn't get on the end of them because they were overhit; Hence, poor service.
If friedel had done his job we would have won 2-0, no-one would have said a word.
There may have been one or two mumblings, As I said before I'm also not a fan of Agbonlahor wide and Young in the middle.
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Nightmare scenario is that Bents goals dry up playing for us.
Given the wingers we have and with creative players like Bannan and Bradley on our books, it would be tactical failure of mammoth proportions if Bent's goals were to dry up for us!
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And Walker is called to the England squad.... well done lad.
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Bannan could develop into our creative player , he is in the xavi Esq mold , though im pretty confident that if delph was utilized to play in an attacking role he would be immense , tbf he was always played as an attacking midfielder at leeds however MON used his so called footballing brain and tried to play him as a defensive midfielder... idiot...
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I think might do very well in a support role to Bent. He manages to get into tight spaces and creates a lot out of very little. He'll still play an important role this season.
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There were one or two times that the ball was nearly there if Bent had got on the end this thread wouldn't be here.
Yes but that's the point of the thread. Bent didn't get on the end of them because they were overhit; Hence, poor service.
I don't agree, Bent did not look sharp today, he was slow too react to every through ball.
I am a little worried, because he does absolutely nothing, he doesn't lead the line at all and has a terrible touch.
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Bent is an opportunist he isn't a hold up or fetch and carry player, he has scored twice in three games not bad for someone still getting to know his teammated. One thing worries me about Albrighton, when he first got his chance he was putting in quick low crosses into dangerous areas, that seems to have disappeared lately.
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Bent is an opportunist he isn't a hold up or fetch and carry player, he has scored twice in three games not bad for someone still getting to know his teammated. One thing worries me about Albrighton, when he first got his chance he was putting in quick low crosses into dangerous areas, that seems to have disappeared lately.
2 tap ins in 4 games.
He looks rubbish every time he has an opportunity to turn and pass.
Don't get me wrong I like Bent because he draws players with him and he is always central looking for a tap in.
I'm just so angry at how shite Petrov was today.
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Bent is a poacher. He needs a supplier playing up front with him. I would like to see he and Heskey playing together.
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There were one or two times that the ball was nearly there if Bent had got on the end this thread wouldn't be here.
Yes but that's the point of the thread. Bent didn't get on the end of them because they were overhit; Hence, poor service.
I don't agree, Bent did not look sharp today, he was slow too react to every through ball.
I am a little worried, because he does absolutely nothing, he doesn't lead the line at all and has a terrible touch.
There were two attempted through balls from Ash that Usain Bolt would've struggled to get to so I'm not sure you can blame Bent for those, poor service is the only thing to be said for that.
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I don't doubt Bent will get goals for us (I mean he could have easily had 1 today and he almost got a touch on Walkers effort, then we'd be saying '4 in 4, great start'), but we need to be more creative through the centre.
I hope Bradley can offer that. 'Cos Petrov and Nige certainly can not. Otherwise we may have to wait until next season to see the best of Bent.
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Yea, imagine Bent in the Championship - he'll score more than Steve Bull did!!
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Just watched the highlights. Downing involved in every single one of ours. Yet people still think he should be dropped.
I'd agree the AY in the hole position is hit and miss at best though.
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Thought Downing had a better game yesterday (I've criticised him recently as well) but what was Young bringing to the proceedings until he moved out left in the last 15 minutes or so.I would be quite happy to let him (AY) move on in the summer as he hasn't been the same since he got tagged world class by the last manager.
If we are going to play with 2 wide men it should be Downing on the Left and Albrighton right.
It was interesting seeing the way Bent hangs in between the two central defenders, add in gabby somehow, that combination would create a fair degree of uncertainty for opposing defences, especially with their pace.
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Agree
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I think Ashley Young should be dropped.
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I think Ashley must have it written in his contract that he must play 'up front'..... Because otherwise it baffles me how many times we can try this god awful formation and see him add absolutely nothing.
Alas we seem to have found with Houllier another stubborn git who wants to play a certain way and to cock with everything else. Yesterday's 2nd half was dire!
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I think Ashley must have it written in his contract that he must play 'up front'..... Because otherwise it baffles me how many times we can try this god awful formation and see him add absolutely nothing.
Alas we seem to have found with Houllier another stubborn git who wants to play a certain way and to cock with everything else. Yesterday's 2nd half was dire!
Did you notice that for a lot of the second half Ashley was out wide and Gabby down the middle?
Did you notice Ashley's involvement in the goals in recent games against Man City, Wigan and Manu? He's not above criticism but exaggerating the point doesn't help the debate.
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Chris can you explain what Gabby,Young did in the second half? Young had one shanked shot wide and got a free kick. The fastest i saw Gabby run was when he was subbed. I fully expect Young to provide a spark or create that Merson type magic, sadly apart from a few well taken pens i see nothing.
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The major difference between this season and last is Young playing centrally instead of on the wing. I haven't been impressed with the change all season and our league position doesn't suggest it's been a good switch either.
The change has effected the positions and performances of several other players, when albrighton was ready to come on yesterday i realised we wouldn't be any worse off without young, gabby or bent on the pitch. This seems like a gross tactical error if nearly a third of your outfield players are barely involved in the game, more worrying if it's all of your attacking threat bar downing (who I also think is better on the left)
Anyone know youngs assists etc for this season compared to previous ones?
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Chris can you explain what Gabby,Young did in the second half? Young had one shanked shot wide and got a free kick. The fastest i saw Gabby run was when he was subbed. I fully expect Young to provide a spark or create that Merson type magic, sadly apart from a few well taken pens i see nothing.
We didn't play well in the second half but that was with Ashley down the middle for some of it and out wide for some of it. We played well in the first half when he was down the middle. This suggests to me that the issue is elsewhere in the team. My feeling is that it about getting the right balance behind them and being able to defend a lead.
Think back to games against Man City, Wigan and Manu and think again about Ashley contributing "nothing" as he had a direct hand in goals in all 3.
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Ash doesn't score enough goals for him to remain as the second striker in my view
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Chris can you explain what Gabby,Young did in the second half? Young had one shanked shot wide and got a free kick. The fastest i saw Gabby run was when he was subbed. I fully expect Young to provide a spark or create that Merson type magic, sadly apart from a few well taken pens i see nothing.
We didn't play well in the second half but that was with Ashley down the middle for some of it and out wide for some of it. We played well in the first half when he was down the middle. This suggests to me that the issue is elsewhere in the team. My feeling is that it about getting the right balance behind them and being able to defend a lead.
Think back to games against Man City, Wigan and Manu and think again about Ashley contributing "nothing" as he had a direct hand in goals in all 3.
One flash of decent football aint enough Chris. Cant remember the last MOM perfromance by him. Needed him to step up yesterday and he didnt. Maybe harsh but all i saw yesterday was a typical Young performance and the normal yellow card.
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Ash doesn't score enough goals for him to remain as the second striker in my view
Agreed and by playing him there and Gabby on the left wing we're stuffing up that position too.
I actually feel quite sorry for Gabby (it's all relative - he's still playing football for a living and earning millions every year on the back of it!) - he's being asked to play completely out of position as a right footed player on the left wing. It's clear it's affecting his confidence and I'm watching him change from one of our brightest stars to a new Stephan Moore as each week passes. I can't see GH either dropping Bent or playing a straight 442 so I can only see this ending in Gabby leaving for a fairly crap fee.
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Sunderland fans said that Bent's at his best when the play comes through the middle. IDK much about Bradley but we don't have anyone to do that at the moment. So I think that's why we're seeing Ash off the front.
Gabby's work rate helps Clark out too. And his pace can exploit the gaps inbetween the fullback and centre half.
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But ash was playing that role before bent came in any case, I would say he is better on the wing as well but maybe houllier is trying gabby there to see if he can fill that role as part of assessing his squad and future needs.
Gabby needs to improve his finishing and hopefully he will learn from bent.
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Chris can you explain what Gabby,Young did in the second half? Young had one shanked shot wide and got a free kick. The fastest i saw Gabby run was when he was subbed. I fully expect Young to provide a spark or create that Merson type magic, sadly apart from a few well taken pens i see nothing.
We didn't play well in the second half but that was with Ashley down the middle for some of it and out wide for some of it. We played well in the first half when he was down the middle. This suggests to me that the issue is elsewhere in the team. My feeling is that it about getting the right balance behind them and being able to defend a lead.
Think back to games against Man City, Wigan and Manu and think again about Ashley contributing "nothing" as he had a direct hand in goals in all 3.
Which ever way you look at it, we're just not creating enough chances. Something has to change.
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The system perhaps.
If opposition fill the midfield especially at VP then we are generally done with Houlliers tactics.
If you want winders go and watch some other side, Houllier and wingers, unlikely. For all the ball they got Bent, Gabby and Young were under used, simply because his negative tactics to hold the ball failed as they had more in midfield. It got worse when Makoun, Downing and especially Petrov tired.
Its great holding on to the ball but when mostly it results in passes back to keeper or cb's who tend to give it to the opposition because we have no real target man, its pointless.
Makoun distributes quickly but then the ball rarely gets put at the feet of Downing or Young, both of whom at least get free kicks if not crosses in.
Albrightons no answer as he's off form, I don't see Bradley being the panacea some keep ranting on about, just like Bannan, who gets muscled out of games.
Perhaps going 2 up front with 2/3 behind will be the answer. It might help the defence to cut out the crosses we are so weak at cutting out too.
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Albrightons no answer as he's off form, I don't see Bradley being the panacea some keep ranting on about, just like Bannan, who gets muscled out of games.
You know it's funny, I don't think I've ever actually seen that happen. I've seen him tire and misplace passes, but get muscled out? No actually. Maybe if people keep saying it's a problem it will be a problem, because it looks like it should be, doesn't it? However, there is no evidence to suggest Bannan loses more one-on-one tussles than any other player - in fact, he probably wins more with his quick feet enabling him to get out of trouble with the ball (now I've seen that happen many, many times).
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Young and Albrighton back playing on the wings.
Problem solved.
Short term I'd agree with this. I'd try Downing in the hole as he's reasonably quick and decent on the ball and he has a good shot on him.
The problem is we have players who can cross but too often we lack composure and intelligence when they players get in decent positions. I wish sometimes rather than just whacking it in, they'd take an extra second, look up and see where Bent is.
Two examples in the second half, Walker goes on a great run down the right beating a few men, gets to the byline and then all the good walk goes to waste as he skies it into the Holte. Another time I think it was Downing, again goes down the right, Bent's pulled away from his marker, is free and needs a simple cross and Downing hits it 10ft in the air and over his head!
More composure needed. We do have creative players but they don't think enough when they get in the threatening positions.