Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Archie on January 02, 2011, 09:01:13 PM
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All in all, I'm quite satisfied today, as we risked to lose a game that we'd deserve to win, and that at seven minutes from the treble whistle we were winning.
But in the same time I'm pretty disappointed (ok, I'm pi*sed off) for another win thrown away due to the lack of consistency of our defenders. >:(
It goes without saying, (GH would say: ça va sans dire ;)) that I refer to Collins & Dunne.
I can concede that Dunne has been less disastrous than usual, but he didn't challenge Drogba in the air in the occasion of their second goal. Even when he plays quite well he makes the crucial mistake that costs us the game.
And Collins provoked a ridicolous penalty.
The TV commentator said that Dunne & Collins look "pub players", and actually I don't remember a worst pair of central defenders, I think none of them would play in the starting XI of my local team that play in the Italian Serie B.
Apart of their defensive blunders, what I can't stand is that every time they intercept the ball, the only thing they can do is belt it clear, absolutely unable to start and create from the back, a kind of play that was out-of-date in the 60's.
We can't hold the ball back, it's for this that we are always under pressure and that we have the worst defence of the Premier League.
Obviously it's I that I blame MON for signign two average (but overpaid >:() players like the pair Dunne & Collins, but what I can't understand is how can a continental manager like GH, that like a certain refined style of play, play them instead of the pair Clark - Cuellar.
It's a mistery to me.
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I thought they were both fine today.
Not perfect at all, but both had to put in a very decent shift.
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All in all, I'm quite satisfied today, as we risked to lose a game that we'd deserve to win, and that at seven minutes from the treble whistle we were winning.
But in the same time I'm pretty disappointed (ok, I'm pi*sed off) for another win thrown away due to the lack of consistency of our defenders. >:(
It goes without saying, (GH would say: ça va sans dire ;)) that I refer to Collins & Dunne.
I can concede that Dunne has been less disastrous than usual, but he didn't challenge Drogba in the air in the occasion of their second goal. Even when he plays quite well he makes the crucial mistake that costs us the game.
And Collins provoked a ridicolous penalty.
The TV commentator said that Dunne & Collins look "pub players", and actually I don't remember a worst pair of central defenders, I think none of them would play in the starting XI of my local team that play in the Italian Serie B.
Apart of their defensive blunders, what I can't stand is that every time they intercept the ball, the only thing they can do is belt it clear, absolutely unable to start and create from the back, a kind of play that was out-of-date in the 60's.
We can't hold the ball back, it's for this that we are always under pressure and that we have the worst defence of the Premier League.
Obviously it's I that I blame MON for signign two average (but overpaid >:() players like the pair Dunne & Collins, but what I can't understand is how can a continental manager like GH, that like a certain refined style of play, play them instead of the pair Clark - Cuellar.
It's a mistery to me.
Dunne was good enough today, Collins was not. As an overall this season, they could be the worst i've seen. Last season they were pretty good overall. Not sure what has happened.
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harsh words Archie IMO
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Thought they were good today.
Dunne was much improved.
Apart from a silly challenge for the penalty, Collins was ok.
Their distribution isn't great but I don't think it ever has been and MON didn't buy them for that.
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The thing is. Collins is well capable of passing the ball well and bringing it out of defence, we just don't see it any more. He was well known for it before and we saw it when he first joined. We seem to have drilled that side of his game out of him though.
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True. He seems to go for longer balls at times and often passes to the opposition.
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All in all, I'm quite satisfied today, as we risked to lose a game that we'd deserve to win, and that at seven minutes from the treble whistle we were winning.
But in the same time I'm pretty disappointed (ok, I'm pi*sed off) for another win thrown away due to the lack of consistency of our defenders. >:(
It goes without saying, (GH would say: ça va sans dire ;)) that I refer to Collins & Dunne.
Well I think to a man they performed admirably today. Worst defenders ever? I think you're just creating a subject header to attract posts. Steve Sims & Derek Mountfield or Collins & Dunne...I know which ones I'd have......
I can concede that Dunne has been less disastrous than usual, but he didn't challenge Drogba in the air in the occasion of their second goal. Even when he plays quite well he makes the crucial mistake that costs us the game.
And Collins provoked a ridicolous penalty.
The TV commentator said that Dunne & Collins look "pub players", and actually I don't remember a worst pair of central defenders, I think none of them would play in the starting XI of my local team that play in the Italian Serie B.
Apart of their defensive blunders, what I can't stand is that every time they intercept the ball, the only thing they can do is belt it clear, absolutely unable to start and create from the back, a kind of play that was out-of-date in the 60's.
We can't hold the ball back, it's for this that we are always under pressure and that we have the worst defence of the Premier League.
Obviously it's I that I blame MON for signign two average (but overpaid >:() players like the pair Dunne & Collins, but what I can't understand is how can a continental manager like GH, that like a certain refined style of play, play them instead of the pair Clark - Cuellar.
It's a mistery to me.
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Very harsh words...a point at the bridge is a point at the bridge especially given our form of late.
I'm not excusing defensive performances of late (and I'm no fan of James Collins) but I thought we did well and can be happy with the way the defence performed overall.
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Well I think to a man they performed admirably today. Worst defenders ever? I think you're just creating a subject header to attract posts. Steve Sims & Derek Mountfield or Collins & Dunne...I know which ones I'd have......
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Pretty sound today, both made crucial tackles and Collins was quite unlucky to give the pen away, if one player doesn't attempt to jump for the ball but just stands his ground the defender doesn't have much option but to collide with him on the way down, the ball was there to be won and only one player was trying to and indeed did win it.
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Very harsh words...a point at the bridge is a point at the bridge especially given our form of late.
I'm not excusing defensive performances of late (and I'm no fan of James Collins) but I thought we did well and can be happy with the way the defence performed overall.
With all due respect, praise for the defence has been widespread on this thread and the match thread and yet we conceded three goals and YET AGAIN could not hold a lead til time from the 80th minute. I'm sure the whole nation knew from that point on the one bankable fact was that Villa would concede at least one and would not win.
Praise if it's due must go to the forward line who managed three goals in a league game for the 3rd time this season and more than 1 for only the 5th time, and thereby bailed a leaky defence out of another dodgy situation.
Great draw and hopefully we'll kick on but if we don't plug the holes we won't.
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Considering half the side were on a yellow for most of the match and with a referee in that mood they had to be careful and did really well.
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Go and watch it again on motd2 and turn off the commentary so you can make your own mind up
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I think we sat too deep at 2-1 if anything, we put pressure on our defence
We should arguably have gone for the jugular then but our lads seemed to run out of steam
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I think consistency is what we need, they are not the players they were a year ago and I can't understand why... hopefully the new year and today's result will galvanise the team and we start playing like we did 12 months ago.
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Well I think to a man they performed admirably today. Worst defenders ever? I think you're just creating a subject header to attract posts. Steve Sims & Derek Mountfield or Collins & Dunne...I know which ones I'd have......
Except Sims & Mountfield never played together for Villa.
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All in all, I'm quite satisfied today, as we risked to lose a game that we'd deserve to win, and that at seven minutes from the treble whistle we were winning.
But in the same time I'm pretty disappointed (ok, I'm pi*sed off) for another win thrown away due to the lack of consistency of our defenders. >:(
It goes without saying, (GH would say: ça va sans dire ;)) that I refer to Collins & Dunne.
I can concede that Dunne has been less disastrous than usual, but he didn't challenge Drogba in the air in the occasion of their second goal. Even when he plays quite well he makes the crucial mistake that costs us the game.
And Collins provoked a ridicolous penalty.
The TV commentator said that Dunne & Collins look "pub players", and actually I don't remember a worst pair of central defenders, I think none of them would play in the starting XI of my local team that play in the Italian Serie B.
Apart of their defensive blunders, what I can't stand is that every time they intercept the ball, the only thing they can do is belt it clear, absolutely unable to start and create from the back, a kind of play that was out-of-date in the 60's.
We can't hold the ball back, it's for this that we are always under pressure and that we have the worst defence of the Premier League.
Obviously it's I that I blame MON for signign two average (but overpaid >:() players like the pair Dunne & Collins, but what I can't understand is how can a continental manager like GH, that like a certain refined style of play, play them instead of the pair Clark - Cuellar.
It's a mistery to me.
The only mistery to me is your motive???
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I think of all the games over the last few months we have had to endure you pick a strange time to launch such a tirade - but all about personal views I suppose
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Very harsh words...a point at the bridge is a point at the bridge especially given our form of late.
I'm not excusing defensive performances of late (and I'm no fan of James Collins) but I thought we did well and can be happy with the way the defence performed overall.
With all due respect, praise for the defence has been widespread on this thread and the match thread and yet we conceded three goals and YET AGAIN could not hold a lead til time from the 80th minute. I'm sure the whole nation knew from that point on the one bankable fact was that Villa would concede at least one and would not win.
Praise if it's due must go to the forward line who managed three goals in a league game for the 3rd time this season and more than 1 for only the 5th time, and thereby bailed a leaky defence out of another dodgy situation.
Great draw and hopefully we'll kick on but if we don't plug the holes we won't.
One of the goals was scored by a defender.
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All in all, I'm quite satisfied today, as we risked to lose a game that we'd deserve to win, and that at seven minutes from the treble whistle we were winning.
But in the same time I'm pretty disappointed (ok, I'm pi*sed off) for another win thrown away due to the lack of consistency of our defenders. >:(
It goes without saying, (GH would say: ça va sans dire ;)) that I refer to Collins & Dunne.
I can concede that Dunne has been less disastrous than usual, but he didn't challenge Drogba in the air in the occasion of their second goal. Even when he plays quite well he makes the crucial mistake that costs us the game.
And Collins provoked a ridicolous penalty.
The TV commentator said that Dunne & Collins look "pub players", and actually I don't remember a worst pair of central defenders, I think none of them would play in the starting XI of my local team that play in the Italian Serie B.
Apart of their defensive blunders, what I can't stand is that every time they intercept the ball, the only thing they can do is belt it clear, absolutely unable to start and create from the back, a kind of play that was out-of-date in the 60's.
We can't hold the ball back, it's for this that we are always under pressure and that we have the worst defence of the Premier League.
Did you
Obviously it's I that I blame MON for signign two average (but overpaid >:() players like the pair Dunne & Collins, but what I can't understand is how can a continental manager like GH, that like a certain refined style of play, play them instead of the pair Clark - Cuellar.
It's a mistery to me.
You obviously never saw us as we plummeted into the old Third Division. Yes I know I’m an old git but come on.
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Silliest post of the week, perfect defending no, solid and passionate yes.
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Harsh words and a very strange time to formulate them. Neither are famed for their distribution and we've all bemoaned CBs trying to play it out when all they should do is hoof it away. The penalty was harsh on Collins and both made some good tackles. Dunne's tackle in the second half, in the box, with a card happy ref, was quality.
What we needed today was a well earned point or three, won with character and spirit. We certainly weren't at our best but the defence played pretty well and were unlucky to concede 3. I'll take it for now, enjoy the slight upturn in our fortunes and see what the rest of the week brings.
My initial response was considerably shorter and blunter than this.
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Hey we think our defence is bad, what must Ancelotti be thinking? This is a man used to having Nesta and Maldini in his defence, and he gets the type of defending he got today. What he must be thinking.
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Archie, you make the mistake of judging their defending by Italian standards.
Collins is Welsh, he probably thinks catenaccio is the sound a cat makes when it sneezes
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All in all, I'm quite satisfied today, as we risked to lose a game that we'd deserve to win, and that at seven minutes from the treble whistle we were winning.
But in the same time I'm pretty disappointed (ok, I'm pi*sed off) for another win thrown away due to the lack of consistency of our defenders. >:(
It goes without saying, (GH would say: ça va sans dire ;)) that I refer to Collins & Dunne.
I can concede that Dunne has been less disastrous than usual, but he didn't challenge Drogba in the air in the occasion of their second goal. Even when he plays quite well he makes the crucial mistake that costs us the game.
And Collins provoked a ridicolous penalty.
The TV commentator said that Dunne & Collins look "pub players", and actually I don't remember a worst pair of central defenders, I think none of them would play in the starting XI of my local team that play in the Italian Serie B.
Apart of their defensive blunders, what I can't stand is that every time they intercept the ball, the only thing they can do is belt it clear, absolutely unable to start and create from the back, a kind of play that was out-of-date in the 60's.
We can't hold the ball back, it's for this that we are always under pressure and that we have the worst defence of the Premier League.
Did you
Obviously it's I that I blame MON for signign two average (but overpaid >:() players like the pair Dunne & Collins, but what I can't understand is how can a continental manager like GH, that like a certain refined style of play, play them instead of the pair Clark - Cuellar.
It's a mistery to me.
You obviously never saw the likes of George Curtis, Fred Turnbull and Big Dick Edwards etc as we plummeted into the old Third Division. Yes I know I’m an old git but come on.
They were great last year. They have struggled under pressure this year but they have played behind what must be Villa’s most inexperienced midfield ever – if not the PL’s. It is a team game you know.
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Archie, you make the mistake of judging their defending by Italian standards.
Collins is Welsh, he probably thinks catenaccio is the sound a cat makes when it sneezes
He, he, nice touch Demon, fair play to you!
Well, I know that the time of my post looks strange, many of you seem to get irritated for this.
I'm sorry, but I didn't intend to be harsh with our lads; the fact is that I suffered like a beast after their comeback, and if Cjaran Clark, left completely and incredibly marked, hadn't scored the late equalizer, I suppose that much more users would agree that our defence is (like it has always been) poor this season.
So premised, I don't think that the last equalizer, not depending on Dunne or Collins, can mitigate the judgement on their performance.
And to those who wrote that Dunne played his best game this season I want to say: I agree with you. I had premised that Dunne played quite well, and this is the reason why I'm so worried about our defence, because our CD makes his best peformance and he concedes one goal. When he doesn't make his best effort, he concedes two or three.
How many goals have we conceded until now? And till when shall we praise these defenders?
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I think after six-odd weeks of defensive calamaties and complete terror whenever even a mediocre striker came within ten yards of them, a Paul McGrath-style domination of the game would have been asking a hell of a lot. I thought Dunne in particular was marvellous, much improved.
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Gross exaggeration. I don't mean to be rude but how long have you been following the Villa if you think our current pairing is the worst ever? Presumably you don't remember the mid 80s for example and such luminaries as Brendan Ormsby, Dean Glover, Steve Foster and Paul Elliott to name but four. Or, forgive me, perhaps you're not old enough to...
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Gross exaggeration. I don't mean to be rude but how long have you been following the Villa if you think our current pairing is the worst ever? Presumably you don't remember the mid 80s for example and such luminaries as Brendan Ormsby, Dean Glover, Steve Foster and Paul Elliott to name but four. Or, forgive me, perhaps you're not old enough to...
I have been following Villa since 1978-79 season, but, living in Italy, until about ten years ago I couldn't see all the games like I do now, and I should be satisfied with the one or two games that I could manage to see live, at VP or in some London stadia.
So, you're right, I certainly can have exagerrated, but what I meant is that I can't acclimatize to have two central defenders that always belt the ball clear and renounce to create from the back, this not my idea of football.
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Gross exaggeration. I don't mean to be rude but how long have you been following the Villa if you think our current pairing is the worst ever? Presumably you don't remember the mid 80s for example and such luminaries as Brendan Ormsby, Dean Glover, Steve Foster and Paul Elliott to name but four. Or, forgive me, perhaps you're not old enough to...
I have been following Villa since 1978-79 season, but, living in Italy, until about ten years ago I couldn't see all the games like I do now, and I should be satisfied with the one or two games that I could manage to see live, at VP or in some London stadia.
So, you're right, I certainly can have exagerrated, but what I meant is that I can't acclimatize to have two central defenders that always belt the ball clear and renounce to create from the back, this not my idea of football.
Change the title of the thread in that case Archie! And I do realise you live in Italy, Frank often talks of you. Nothing can come remotely close to some of the mid 80s central defending, except perhaps Ehiogu in his early days...
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Gross exaggeration. I don't mean to be rude but how long have you been following the Villa if you think our current pairing is the worst ever? Presumably you don't remember the mid 80s for example and such luminaries as Brendan Ormsby, Dean Glover, Steve Foster and Paul Elliott to name but four. Or, forgive me, perhaps you're not old enough to...
I have been following Villa since 1978-79 season, but, living in Italy, until about ten years ago I couldn't see all the games like I do now, and I should be satisfied with the one or two games that I could manage to see live, at VP or in some London stadia.
So, you're right, I certainly can have exagerrated, but what I meant is that I can't acclimatize to have two central defenders that always belt the ball clear and renounce to create from the back, this not my idea of football.
Change the title of the thread in that case Archie! And I do realise you live in Italy, Frank often talks of you. Nothing can come remotely close to some of the mid 80s central defending, except perhaps Ehiogu in his early days...
Ugo on his debut had the shocker of all shockers. Yet he ended up being part of a very tidy defensive partnership with Southgate. Yep, the early to mid-80's was abysmal. I shudder just thinking about Steve Foster in a Villa shirt. We've been quite lucky overall for good number of years, and have had some good pairs and for a while played with 3 off course. This partnership doesn't come close to being the worst ever.
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Can I just cast everyone's minds back to the latter part of season 2008-2009, after Laursen had been injured? Who were our central defensive pairing then? Was it Curtis & Knight?
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Nothing wrong with belting it out however Dunne has been abysmal this season.
By the way have you forgotten Liam Ridgewell?
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I think we sat too deep at 2-1 if anything, we put pressure on our defence
We should arguably have gone for the jugular then but our lads seemed to run out of steam
It comes down to the same thing really, we don't keep the ball well enough when we're winning.
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I think we sat too deep at 2-1 if anything, we put pressure on our defence
We should arguably have gone for the jugular then but our lads seemed to run out of steam
It comes down to the same thing really, we don't keep the ball well enough when we're winning.
I agree. Look how Spurs played when they were 1-0 up, despite being a man down. That's how to protect a lead.
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However it WAS Chelsea we were playing..so not easy to keep ball
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Change the title of the thread in that case Archie! And I do realise you live in Italy, Frank often talks of you. Nothing can come remotely close to some of the mid 80s central defending, except perhaps Ehiogu in his early days...
Ok, the title was a little bit emphatic, but don't take me too seriously Richard, I have always considered this beautiful forum like a family, an environment where you can use a jocose expression. . .
I nearly had a heart attack today, and even in the previous matches, starting from Newcastle (where a bunch of mates of mine went spending the equivalent of a season ticket, maybe more), and after six months our defensive weakness hasn't changed. It's a fact that every game we concede stupid goals, and a stupid goal conceded remains a stupid goal conceded even when you have the chance to score a late equalizer.
I don't think that, if he could choose, GH would have chosen neither Dunne nor Collins, so let me hope that the defence will be entirely changed at the January transfer window.
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However it WAS Chelsea we were playing..so not easy to keep ball
No that's true, so even though I thought we were a little wasteful, the criticism doesn't apply as much today. However, if we're leading against Sunderland on Wednesday, you just know we're going to drop deep and invite the equaliser. It might work, if we score on the counter, but it often doesn't work.
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To answer the question; one word - No!
Collins and Dunne may not be the best but they are by no means the worst Archie...
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However it WAS Chelsea we were playing..so not easy to keep ball
No that's true, so even though I thought we were a little wasteful, the criticism doesn't apply as much today. However, if we're leading against Sunderland on Wednesday, you just know we're going to drop deep and invite the equaliser. It might work, if we score on the counter, but it often doesn't work.
Yes agreed this has been our worst habit (v Stoke, Spurs, Fulham away, Manu u at home) but not only this season. We were gifted with this during MON's reign.
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However it WAS Chelsea we were playing..so not easy to keep ball
No that's true, so even though I thought we were a little wasteful, the criticism doesn't apply as much today. However, if we're leading against Sunderland on Wednesday, you just know we're going to drop deep and invite the equaliser. It might work, if we score on the counter, but it often doesn't work.
Yes agreed this has been our worst habit (v Stoke, Spurs, Fulham away, Manu u at home) but not only this season. We were gifted with this during MON's reign.
It was an active tactic during MON's reign. I suppose he 'reasoned' that if we couldn't break down packed defences, then nobody else could either.
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We were defending pretty much non-stop from about the 55th minute onwards against the champions. Out of form champions maybe but they still have plenty of quality. They were at home aswell. So although two goals conceded in the last ten minutes looks poor I think it was more a consequence of us inviting pressure on for the best part of 30 minutes and not pressing higher up the pitch. But that's what great teams can do to you.
One of my pet peeves with Friedel, despite some important interventions by him today, was prevalent again with Terry's goal. That 'palming the ball straight back out to the area where the shot came in so as to give the opposition a rebound' thing. Concede a corner, try and tip it away to the side, but this flamboyant palm-back has cost us quite a bit.
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Both are ball winning defenders, both like to attack thr ball, they rely too heavily on last ditch defending, they are both too smilar, Curtis Davies was supposed to be the other type of centre half, a cover to drop off the ball winner. Collins does panic and slash at the ball and Dunnes composure is lacking.
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Agree with both of you, Eamonn and Hawkeye. Despite Friedel's shot-blocking heroics, he has weaknesses in some of those nuances which make great keepers great. You'd never see Kahn or Buffon palming the ball to the areas Friedel does. I'm not sure it's his fault, might just be a question of talent at that minute level, but it's why he's always been a very good keeper throughout his career, rather than a great one.
Hawkeye, agreed again. Most of the art of defending isn't in the dramatic last-ditch situations, but in making sure it never gets to that stage. That was the genius of God, as well as greats like Cannavaro and Moore, that they'd read the game so well that they'd intercept at just the right moment to snuff out all danger, which also gives you more time on the ball to play out from defence like Archie wants (as do I and many others). Dunne and Collins did pretty well with the last ditch stuff, but it shouldn't have got to that stage as often as it did as that invites trouble and, because you're doing so many last-ditch clearances, is self-perpetuating.
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I still have palpitations thinking about the some of the partnerships we had during 05/06. Admittedly, Mellberg and Cahill were good players but at the time Ridgewell could defend with such fuckwittedness that it would make a partnership with God look slightly ropey.
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Agree that the defence has been our Achilles heel this year, but if you're picking defenders based even partly on distribution Cuellar wouldn't get a look in, as he's about the worst of the lot.
As an earlier poster said too, Collins when he first arrived had the reputation of a CB capable of passing the ball from the back. I was dubious when we first signed him but most West Ham fans I spoke to said we'd got an absolute bargain, only injuries have held him back.
He's been iffy this season, but it can't have helped having a player like Dunne regressing with each game next to you, and needing nursemading - as per the Mellberg/ Ridgewell partnership in 2005/06.
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Carl Tiler
Andy Comyn
There's a couple of names to throw into the blender
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Not even close to being our worst central defensive partnership!!
Edit:Apologies Archie, I see you've explained later in the thread that you were exagerrating
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Can we chan the thread title? It's disrespectful particularly on the back of the effort put in yesterday
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Can we chan the thread title? It's disrespectful particularly on the back of the effort put in yesterday
Just done it. . .
I didn't mean to be disrepecteful though, only to remark that we were on the edge to lose the empteen just won game due to the fact the central pair concedes always one, two, three or more chances every game, so it'all question of time when we capitulate.
Most have reacted as if our defence were the first for number of goals conceded, whereas we are the last, so I din't think to have said an heresy.
I'm also convinced that the results orient many valuations, and that if Clark wouldn't have equalized many would have reconsidered how we have conceded the first two goals.
Normally I'm on the same wavelenghth as the H&V members, but this time I really can't understand how the majority can be happy with a similar pair of CB.
We are Aston Villa, not Scunthorpe, we can't limit to belt the ball clear when we are under pressure.
In the Chronicles of John Lerwill I read that even in 1904 we tried to build the play either "with an exchange of short passing" or through the wingers. . .
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I'm another one that's a bit surprised at the amount of praise the defence are getting for yesterday's game.
There were plusses - they tried to get back to basics and make us hard to break down, which was working pretty well, Collins' reckless challenge aside, until the 80th minute. They also worked hard and looked like they were up for it, and we certainly didn't surrender and look porous from the first 5 minutes like the previous couple of away games. I don't think distribution was uppermost in their minds, and I doubt Carlos at CB would be an improvement in that respect.
However the collapse in the last 10 minutes was utterly predictable and as others have said we still conceded 3 against a side that have been misfiring badly for the last month or more. We still have players ball watching instead of marking (see Clarke watching Dunne miss the header for the second goal while Kalou was sneaking round his back), and still have two or three players all bombing towards the player in possession leaving huge gaps for the other opponents (see Terry's goal). It's the kind of stuff I was taught as a schoolboy not to do, and it's why we had to rely on 2 or 3 superb stops from Friedel to keep us in it.
I think the forwards and midfielders should take a lot of the credit for getting us three goals, but I wonder how much of the praise would have been forthcoming if the late equalizer hadn't happened.
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I think they both did well today, I still think the pen was harsh.
They weren't perfect but its something to build on. Some people are never happy
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I'm another one that's a bit surprised at the amount of praise the defence are getting for yesterday's game.
There were plusses - they tried to get back to basics and make us hard to break down, which was working pretty well, Collins' reckless challenge aside, until the 80th minute. They also worked hard and looked like they were up for it, and we certainly didn't surrender and look porous from the first 5 minutes like the previous couple of away games. I don't think distribution was uppermost in their minds, and I doubt Carlos at CB would be an improvement in that respect.
However the collapse in the last 10 minutes was utterly predictable and as others have said we still conceded 3 against a side that have been misfiring badly for the last month or more. We still have players ball watching instead of marking (see Clarke watching Dunne miss the header for the second goal while Kalou was sneaking round his back), and still have two or three players all bombing towards the player in possession leaving huge gaps for the other opponents (see Terry's goal). It's the kind of stuff I was taught as a schoolboy not to do, and it's why we had to rely on 2 or 3 superb stops from Friedel to keep us in it.
I think the forwards and midfielders should take a lot of the credit for getting us three goals, but I wonder how much of the praise would have been forthcoming if the late equalizer hadn't happened.
I agree.
Currently we need to score 2/3 every game to have a hope of getting anything.
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Gross exaggeration. I don't mean to be rude but how long have you been following the Villa if you think our current pairing is the worst ever? Presumably you don't remember the mid 80s for example and such luminaries as Brendan Ormsby, Dean Glover, Steve Foster and Paul Elliott to name but four. Or, forgive me, perhaps you're not old enough to...
Oh, Archie is old enough:) although not an old timer! haha...I had the fortune,along with a good friend of mine to be invited to Archies home in Italy to watch the Carling Cup final last year. He,along with his lovely family and friends, were extremely welcoming and impressed me with their knowledge of the Villa! Hey Archie, its Nik, by the way. Long time no see my friend-I was only briefly in Padova, before being sent to Shanghai for work!! happy new year to you!
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At least Dunne looked like he'd been training; actually seemed to have lost some weight yesterday.
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Gross exaggeration. I don't mean to be rude but how long have you been following the Villa if you think our current pairing is the worst ever? Presumably you don't remember the mid 80s for example and such luminaries as Brendan Ormsby, Dean Glover, Steve Foster and Paul Elliott to name but four. Or, forgive me, perhaps you're not old enough to...
Oh, Archie is old enough:) although not an old timer! haha...I had the fortune,along with a good friend of mine to be invited to Archies home in Italy to watch the Carling Cup final last year. He,along with his lovely family and friends, were extremely welcoming and impressed me with their knowledge of the Villa! Hey Archie, its Nik, by the way. Long time no see my friend-I was only briefly in Padova, before being sent to Shanghai for work!! happy new year to you!
Nik, what a pleasure to hear from you!
I wondered where you had finished, and now we have the answer, like Marco Polo you went from Venice to China!
Cheers. . .
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KTV makes a very good point, as ever, about our defenders all rushing towards the attacking player in possession. Noticed it several times yesterday and on numerous other occasions both this and last season...
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As they say, defending starts from the front.
The latter part of the season before last we looked terrible at defending as teams just ran through Petrov and Barry. MON bought Dunne and Collins and everything looked better. How much was this due to Dunne and Collins or down to having the energy of Milner infront of them to stop the opposition running at them and drawing them out of position.
Yesterday we looked as though we were coping reasonably well in the first half when Petrov and Reo Coker had the energy to cover the middle. As the energy levels dropped, they naturally started to drop deeper as they couldn't afford to let the Chelsea midfield get behind them.
Yesterday was a very rearguard display with effectively 4 central defenders and 2 wide players protecting the flanks. It gave us the tightness Houllier was asking for and will serve us in the current situation but we cannot progress off the back of this. We need a better central midfield and at least one more mobile and solid central defender. Somebody else touched on it earlier, I do not think Collins and Dunne are particularly good readers of the game.
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At least Dunne looked like he'd been training; actually seemed to have lost some weight yesterday.
I thought that,he looked alot sharper than before,this is what was letting him down at the start of the season,as you dont go from being one of the best defenders from the previous season,to a sunday parks look a like over night.
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Yesterday was a very rearguard display with effectively 4 central defenders and 2 wide players protecting the flanks. It gave us the tightness Houllier was asking for and will serve us in the current situation but we cannot progress off the back of this. We need a better central midfield and at least one more mobile and solid central defender. Somebody else touched on it earlier, I do not think Collins and Dunne are particularly good readers of the game.
Agree with your deep analysis, mate.
Generally speaking, please don't consider me an Italian cu*t , but I can't conceive a football made of long balls: we have so many gifted players in the middle of the park, Albrighton, Bannan, Downing, Petrov, A. Young that is a crime to belt the ball clear instead of trying and create from the back.
Modern football is a passing football, all teams are quite educated to play well, I don't want that us, the mighty Aston Villa, are considered the poor parents of Arsenal and Manchester United, at the same level of Blackburn Rovers, a sort of "football troglodytes" with pub players in defence, as I have heard from the Sky commentator yesterday.
If we have this fame we'll struggle to attract the most gifted and creative players and we even risk to lose ours that could be follow the syrens of the other clubs.
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For what it's worth I thought Dunne and Collins were fine yesterday, although agree that by just hitting it clear rather than playing it out of defence meant Chelski just kept coming back at us, and their late goals looked inevitable. BUT, I think the real cause of Chelsea's late recovery was the fact that we'd got so many unwarranted yellows that NRC and Stan couldn't get stuck in and protect the defence as well as they had done earlier.
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Didn't Mcrath once say "they can't score from row Z"
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At least Dunne looked like he'd been training; actually seemed to have lost some weight yesterday.
I thought that,he looked alot sharper than before,this is what was letting him down at the start of the season,as you dont go from being one of the best defenders from the previous season,to a sunday parks look a like over night.
It does make you wonder how much motivation there was preseason from the manager and coaches to prepare for the coming season.
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In our current situation i think the defence played better than they have done, for that we can say they have improved on how they have been playing but they do need to improve more but this hard earned point will give them confidence going into the sunderland game and if they can keep Bent and Gyan quite i would be happy with that.
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Didn't Mcrath once say "they can't score from row Z"
Problem is, nor can the team who put it into row Z. We will never break the top 4 with our hit, hoof and hope policy from the defenders....
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Didn't Mcrath once say "they can't score from row Z"
If God made that statement, it'll do for me! :-)
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Didn't Mcrath once say "they can't score from row Z"
Problem is, nor can the team who put it into row Z. We will never break the top 4 with our hit, hoof and hope policy from the defenders....
Totally agree but there are times when it is appropriate but very rarely when you are in control of the ball (if ever).
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Dunne was great last season, fat, unfit and hopeless so far this season, apart from yesterday when I thought he played well.Lets hope its a return to form.
Collins has been ok, it s aconfidence thing. With Dunne back on it we should be ok.
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GH has had them passing the ball out of defence but its a bit alien to what they know so look where we are today. Yesterday was a backs to the wall, do what you do best situation. The line up with 4 centre halves and no full backs told the story with Downing playing on his wrong side to help out Carlos and the same with Gabby. We simply needed to plug the hole in the dam that was washing our season down the pan. With a card happy ref Warnock and Delph wouldnt have lasted 90 minutes, that was not a dirty game and most of our players were treading on egg shells trying not to get a second yellow, these 2 may not be the best but they are the best we have so we must get behind them, they are both brave men and put themselves in where it hurts.
Edit they looked like a MON team but hey who would have thought we would score an injury time winner, instead of conceding one.
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I thought Dunne played decently overall but his positioning for the equaliser was poor, to be so far away from his man that he could chest the ball down from the cross is pretty ropey. For a change I thought Cuellar's distribution was good, I thought the weak link in the defense in the second half was Clarke, he lost his man frequently and invited crosses, fair play to him for getting forward for the goal.
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Agree about clarke but he's just a kid. Still like to see some reinforcements in defence to cover the youth players and make sure the likes of Dunne stay on their toes
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I thought Dunne played decently overall but his positioning for the equaliser was poor, to be so far away from his man that he could chest the ball down from the cross is pretty ropey. For a change I thought Cuellar's distribution was good, I thought the weak link in the defense in the second half was Clarke, he lost his man frequently and invited crosses, fair play to him for getting forward for the goal.
To be fair to him Chelsea played better when Bosingwa came on,and a couple of times Gabby lost his runner by switching off,but as a striker being played out of position he put in a lot of work.