Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: E I Adio on December 13, 2010, 11:48:23 PM
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I Know it's only the Mirror, but make of it what you will.
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Aston-Villa-s-Habib-Beye-is-the-latest-player-to-have-a-training-ground-bust-up-with-Gerard-Houllier-article650493.html
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Well this is one way of cutting the wage bill
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Ireland Dunne Carew Beye, these guys are not the future. You can add Sidwell Warnock Friedel to this list
Hogg Bannan Albrighton Clarke Lichaj are
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god forbid with half a squad the manager would be a bit worried about picking up injuries.. if he really lost his rag because he couldn't tackle then fuck him. smells like more shit-stirring to me though. GH has really annoyed someone ....
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Bye bye it is then Mr Beye and if there are anymore Villa players who are unhappy to be at this great club raise your hands now and you can all go too. No player is bigger than the Villa. We only need committed to the cause players. Thank you.
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Bye bye it is then Mr Beye and if there are anymore Villa players who are unhappy to be at this great club raise your hands now and you can all go too. No player is bigger than the Villa. We only need committed to the cause players. Thank you.
if it was only that simple, unfortunately they have got contracts
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You have to hand it to Houllier, he's only pissing off the dead wood. I look forward to the next breaking story where the staff hide Sidwell's underpants for a laugh.
As for Beye, yeah fuck off. You were never good enough. Lichaj has pissed all over your performances in half a dozen outings.
Young player = hungry
Beye = passed it
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the problem is that once one senior player shows decent they all think they can have a go, what was pleasing about saturday was how the players on the pitch reacted to the goals, the clear out cant come soon enough
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For the love of Richard Nixon...
That Beye is apparently on 40k a week is enough to make you weep.
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Big Brad's comments are interesting as they confirm that there was a Houllier-free meeting and therefore arguably a degree of mutiny within the camp.
To be honest, I am not too bothered by this. I said after the Liverpool game that an inquest was necessary that would offend a number of the senior squad members. At the time I doubted whether Houllier had the appetite, desire and balls to do this but it appears he has.
Good for him!
...I now hope he has the skills to rebuild the squad (fingers and everything else crossed).
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From what I read of that, it was a training exercise to allow the players the freedom of passing the ball about without any concern of being Eduardo'd. Why the fuck whinge about an offside decision?
He's completely missed the point. Fuck footballer's are a bit thick.
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You have to hand it to Houllier, he's only pissing off the dead wood. I look forward to the next breaking story where the staff hide Sidwell's underpants for a laugh.
As for Beye, yeah fuck off. You were never good enough. Lichaj has pissed all over your performances in half a dozen outings.
Young player = hungry
Beye = passed it
Beye passed it? That'll make a change.
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Maybe he think us Villa fans might have forgotten about him, so why not create something out of nothing to let us go "Ohhhh, that Beye. I don't even know he's still with us...f**k him."
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Beye is pointless at our club. I'd rather see Lichaj play. Who is probably on a tenth of the wages.
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I knew it would be that twat James Nursey, who seems to pursue Villa mischief like a dog with two dicks. Is he a bluenose or something?
At least he's stopped writing the phrase "sell to buy" in every sentence. Imbecile.
As for there being any truth in this, I couldn't care less. Beye is hopeless but I'm already getting fed up of these "stories". The manager and his staff are in charge. If any players, whoever they are, think they can call the shots they can pack their bags and do one. It's a football club with rules and standards not a committee. I think players should be allowed to air their views but in the right manner.
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Houllier is a strong man on discipline, take him on and there's only one winner- a good clear out is long overdue here and a no surprise the names we hear causing trouble are Carew, dunne Ireland and beye- get rid of them!
What does concern me is there is clearly a mole at bodymoor who is leaking all these details to the press- whoever it is needs to be exposed and dismissed.
I cannot wait for January to arrive so gerard can start to get rid of some of o neills shit and bring in his own players !
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For the love of Richard Nixon...
That Beye is apparently on 40k a week is enough to make you weep.
40k a week on a 3 year deal
Thanks for the memories Martin
Salifou who???
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.. Habib gives his all in training and in every game. He was his usual competitive self ..
PMSL!!!!
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One of the more pointless signings in our history, it wouldn't have been so bad if he was 23 not 33.
It's a bit suspicious how all these training ground incidents are now being reported, or is it just the press are smelling blood.
I love the fact the players were told "no tackling or moaning" before the game, perhaps Gerard is on his way to becoming a Brummie.
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.. Habib gives the ball away in training and in every game. He was his usual useless self ..
PMSL!!!!
Amended.
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Is it a mole or is the the "Villa insider" a vehicle for fantasy and fabrication?
According to a Villa insider, Carew was furious at having to play laser quest again instead of doing drills because he really wants to work hard for the team and do his best for the team. He confronted Houllier then stormed off and kicked a dog.
See? Easy.
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I say get rid and take Ireland, Dunne, Carew, and Warnock with you.
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If this is true and if the other stories of GH falling out with some of the senior players are true then I am delighted. It suggests to me that he is up to the job, knows exactly what he must do and that he still has the fire in his belly to be a successful manager.
As people have said here and elsewhere, hopefully this is the beginning of the purging of the deadwood and the reduction of the wage bill. The next stage (I desperately hope) will be the selling of these players and their replacements being signed up: talented young players from Bodymoor, Europe and beyond.
If this is your plan GH, I am right behind you!
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most of the players who are allegedly getting "upset", are the useless wasters....
seems to me that if the spats are true, then they just dont like having to work harder...
so if true, i am more than happy for them to leave... especially with some of them being on ridiculous wages for players of very little ability...
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How do you take on a player, pay him 40 k a week, never play him and then use the excuse that the Board want you to rid the club of overpaid wasters to walk away ?
Houllier may have been the right choice after all.
Its great to see other well used players like Coker, Heskey, Cuellar and Young at least knuckling down when fit, even if they are not many fans favourites at least they do a shift, and don't continue to whine and act like Gods gift to football.
Get rid if we can and take the others with you.
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yep i don't go along with the theory that MON left us a particularly solid foundation. take out the youth players and we have 7 or 8 players the wrong side of 30, then you have the wasters like Ireland and Sidwell. Sooner people like Beye on top wages are moved on, the better
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You have to hand it to Houllier, he's only pissing off the dead wood. I look forward to the next breaking story where the staff hide Sidwell's underpants for a laugh.
As for Beye, yeah fuck off. You were never good enough. Lichaj has pissed all over your performances in half a dozen outings.
Young player = hungry
Beye = passed it
Beye passed it? That'll make a change.
Im amazed he got forward far enough to be offside
See ya, you useless knob head
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The problem with the likes of :
Beye
Sidwell
Salifou
Davies - to an extent
is that if another club is stupid I mean clever enough to take them off our hands we will will get fuck all or a fee that is nothing like what we paid.
If Salifou has been on say 10 grand a week for 3 seasons thats 1.5 million we've spunked up the wall
2 million a season for Beye
Fucking disgraceful and MON couldn't understand why Randy told him to cut the wage bill before he bought more medicore shit.
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looking back its amazing Lerner gave him such a free hand with contracts. On the plus side we bought young and milner for reasonable amounts to what they're worth now, but thats more than cancelled out by the wages and fee's lost on the likes of Davies, Sidwell, Harewood etc... All that "won't pay over the odds" guff was pretty much fiction.
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The sooner all of these talentless leeches piss off, the better. I'd much rather Lichaj in the squad than this clown.
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All this talk of mon leaving a good squad behind puzzles me - after 4 years in the job how many players in our squad that he left would get into any of the top 5 teams? maybe one or two at most!
Houllier needs to rebuild this squad to a huge degree and it will take time but i believe he will get there !
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Agree about getting rid of the deadwood and the whingeing senior players who don't now actually EARN their exorbitant wages. Beye on £40 k a week was always a surprise but what really shocked me was MON giving Osbourne a new contract last year - early promise but whenever I watched him he looked like someone in slow motion. His picture on the video wall was funny though
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In the NOTW story it was said that "the whole squad was behind Dunne" in his outburst. In this piece, Beye is portrayed as competitive player who trains hard. If there is anyone in the Villa camp leaking these stories to the press, it seems to be someone siding with the deadwood.
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osborne had a great game at everton a few years back but apart from that he has done nothing-he will never make the grade here- lower league player at best.
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have a fair bit of sympathy with osbourne to be honest. Looking back he probably should have seen the writing on the wall and moved on like Cahill, Rigewell etc.. Probably could have done a decent job for a lower premiership side given the opportunity but at the time he was very much part of the squad and probably thought MON rated him.
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The most shocking thing about this which says it all about modern football is that Beye actually took a pay cut to join us, same with Sidwell as both were earning 50k + at their previous clubs.
Lichaj looked decent at the weekend so Beye will be moved on in the next window.
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My biggest concern with all this is that nobody bothered to tell the players the training session was over and they could make tackles against Liverpool.
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have a fair bit of sympathy with osbourne to be honest. Looking back he probably should have seen the writing on the wall and moved on like Cahill, Rigewell etc.. Probably could have done a decent job for a lower premiership side given the opportunity but at the time he was very much part of the squad and probably thought MON rated him.
I really can't believe Osbourne is still here.
Madness from the previous manager to give him a 4 year deal in 2007 when he wasn't even making the 18 back then.
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.. Habib gives his all in training and in every game. He was his usual competitive self ..
PMSL!!!!
Yeah, that was the bit my eyes latched onto as well.
I saw Beye leaving the ground with his WAG (although strictly speaking this should be a less politically correct acronym as she's a wife or a girlfriend and there was definitely only one of them, but maybe I shouldn't go there) after the Everton game. Big smile on his face, not a care in the world, climbing into a rather expensive black Ferrari.
The bloke's laughing and with good reason. Only thing I can't understand is why he'd agitate for a move when he's raking it in doing sweet FA and seemed reasonably happy to be doing so. Unless of course he's willing to take a couple of weeks wages being fined, be transferred without officially asking for it and then get his contract paid in full as well as a signing on bonus from elsewhere. Actually, that sounds about right.
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Wasn't aware that players had their contract paid in full if they were sold? As I understood it they got a small cut of the transfer fee- has this changed ?
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You have to hand it to Houllier, he's only pissing off the dead wood. I look forward to the next breaking story where the staff hide Sidwell's underpants for a laugh.
As for Beye, yeah fuck off. You were never good enough. Lichaj has pissed all over your performances in half a dozen outings.
Young player = hungry
Beye = passed it
Beye passed it? That'll make a change.
Chuckle
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Wasn't aware that players had their contract paid in full if they were sold? As I understood it they got a small cut of the transfer fee- has this changed ?
Depends on if you requested the move or not.
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My biggest concern with all this is that nobody bothered to tell the players the training session was over and they could make tackles against Liverpool.
That could have some truth in it - spoiled players trying to prove a point to Gerrard.
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Not one of MON's best signings and wages of 40k a week for Beye is ridiculous
For all the good work MON did, there was also a lot of poor stuff too
The real great work over the last 5 years has been done by Tony Mac, Sid & KMac.
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osborne had a great game at everton a few years back but apart from that he has done nothing-he will never make the grade here- lower league player at best.
Amazed that he was given a 4 year contract.
Worst of all in it's own way is Salifou, apparently only on a trifling £10,000pw, but over 2 years thats £1,000,040 for a player that MON had no interest in at all.
Came from the Swiss 2nd division, and fucking hell, did it show.
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osborne had a great game at everton a few years back but apart from that he has done nothing-he will never make the grade here- lower league player at best.
Amazed that he was given a 4 year contract.
Worst of all in it's own way is Salifou, apparently only on a trifling £10,000pw, but over 2 years thats £1,000,040 for a player that MON had no interest in at all.
Came from the Swiss 2nd division, and fucking hell, did it show.
Yeah but he could have been the next Zidane ;)
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osborne had a great game at everton a few years back but apart from that he has done nothing-he will never make the grade here- lower league player at best.
He's not helped himself with his 'off field interests' that have taken over his footballing career.
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We really do have some shit on our books. Beye is one such player. Over the hill, crap to start with anyway. Utterly pointless signing in all honesty. The sooner we get rid, the better, because he's not Prem quality that's for sure. Never was really.
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Bye-Bye Beye... please make sure the doorknob doesn't hit you on the way out!
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We really do have some shit on our books. Beye is one such player. Over the hill, crap to start with anyway. Utterly pointless signing in all honesty. The sooner we get rid, the better, because he's not Prem quality that's for sure. Never was really.
Like a poor mans De la Cruz.
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osborne had a great game at everton a few years back but apart from that he has done nothing-he will never make the grade here- lower league player at best.
He's not helped himself with his 'off field interests' that have taken over his footballing career.
its a shame really, as he has actually got ability, along with great physical stature... if he applied himself, he could have been a very good footballer...
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I never believe anything i read in The Mirror.
As for Beye, he looks to me as if he'd be a better centre half than a full back.
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The worst debutant since the djembe twins. And his last performance was of a similar standard with only slightly better in between.
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Thought he had a decent game against Chelsea - think he was dropped straight after, bit harsh I thought. But he and Curtis Davies are responsible for us being knocked out of Europe so he can do one.
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Dickhead Nursey is probably hot on the scent of the next training ground bust up scoop which will be Mohammed Salifou refusing to take part in shooting practice.
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I think the players are just making GH feel at home, hasn't had this for the past 6 years with the French.
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Thought he had a decent game against Chelsea - think he was dropped straight after, bit harsh I thought. But he and Curtis Davies are responsible for us being knocked out of Europe so he can do one.
He got injured after the Chelsea game didn't he?
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In fairness we need cover at full back (as Young missed the start of the season with his brother dying) and given Beye had done o.k at Newcastle and only cost 2m, most on here at the time wanted us to be in for him.
He's actually looked o.k a couple of times I've seen him, he was very good at home to Spurs last season but yeah the dynamics of a 30 + squad player who actually dosen't play much on 40k a week is what we're trying to get from really.
Salifou's another one who I can't fathom what purpose is being served by him still being here. Ype, it was fun at the start with him being a cult hero but that's now worn off.
Apart from knowing he signed an 18 month contract when he first joined us in 2007, how Salifou has remained with us for another 18 months I don't get as we've never disclosed any other information on other contracts he's signed as far as I'm aware.
Good job Gregory isn't the manager....!
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Smoke and fire and stuff. It is worrying all these bust-up stories.
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I was going to say that it's about time a manager got his balls out to show everyone; put the over-paid prima donna's in their place and make them realise that it's a privilige and an honour to play for Aston Villa; that they're lucky to have us rather than the other way around.
But then, Houllier's Liverpool antics show's that he doesn't quite believe that Villa are big enough either.
Still, if 'do as I say, not as I do' gets results, who gives a fuck?
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Dickhead Nursey is probably hot on the scent of the next training ground bust up scoop which will be Mohammed Salifou refusing to take part in shooting practice.
Is that a reference to the Togo team bus being ambushed earlier in the year?! If so, I admit to laughing. Sorry.
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I was going to say that it's about time a manager got his balls out to show everyone; put the over-paid prima donna's in their place and make them realise that it's a privilige and an honour to play for Aston Villa; that they're lucky to have us rather than the other way around.
But then, Houllier's Liverpool antics show's that he doesn't quite believe that Villa are big enough either.
Still, if 'do as I say, not as I do' gets results, who gives a fuck?
Beye has been out of the squad, Dunne got droppend and Ireland was left out of the squad altogether. Sounds to me like the manager has been showing then who the boss is.
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totally agree chris , having read the book about houllier its very similar to when he took sole control of liverpool and dismantled the spice boys image and got rid of the trouble makers- well done mr houllier !
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looking back its amazing Lerner gave him such a free hand with contracts. On the plus side we bought young and milner for reasonable amounts to what they're worth now, but thats more than cancelled out by the wages and fee's lost on the likes of Davies, Sidwell, Harewood etc... All that "won't pay over the odds" guff was pretty much fiction.
[Comment From oli oli : ]
who controls contract talks at villa??
Tuesday December 14, 2010 18:56 oli
18:58
General Krulak:
oli: The Manager, Paul, the Club secretary, the finance people, the legal/contract people and, of course, Randy is kept in the loop the entire time. As you can see, it is not just one person.
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[Comment From oli oli : ]
who controls contract talks at villa??
Tuesday December 14, 2010 18:56 oli
18:58
General Krulak:
oli: The Manager, Paul, the Club secretary, the finance people, the legal/contract people and, of course, Randy is kept in the loop the entire time. As you can see, it is not just one person.
That doesn't in any way mean that this is what happened during MON's time. Plus there's a hell of a difference between being kept in the loop and who has the final say on contract details.
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[Comment From oli oli : ]
who controls contract talks at villa??
Tuesday December 14, 2010 18:56 oli
18:58
General Krulak:
oli: The Manager, Paul, the Club secretary, the finance people, the legal/contract people and, of course, Randy is kept in the loop the entire time. As you can see, it is not just one person.
That doesn't in any way mean that this is what happened during MON's time. Plus there's a hell of a difference between being kept in the loop and who has the final say on contract details.
Well we've not really done a lot of transfer dealing since MON left so when else is he talking about?
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MON had the final say on who arrived and what they were paid, more's the pity. when lerner woke up and started querying it was when MON started playing up
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Well we've not really done a lot of transfer dealing since MON left so when else is he talking about?
There's been a number of new contracts agreed over the last few weeks.
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MON had the final say on who arrived and what they were paid, more's the pity. when lerner woke up and started querying it was when MON started playing up
That's good enough for me. If anyone understands the internal workings of Aston Villa it's Greg Nash.
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That's good enough for me. If anyone understands the internal workings of Aston Villa it's Greg Nash.
I thought that MON's need for complete and utter control was one of the (very) few universally-accepted things on here. Obviously not.
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Well we've not really done a lot of transfer dealing since MON left so when else is he talking about?
There's been a number of new contracts agreed over the last few weeks.
Good point, I didn't take account of those. Still I would be amazed if the policy has changed greatly. If the people that the General mentions weren't involved previously then that would appear negligent on their behalf.
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MON had the final say on who arrived and what they were paid, more's the pity. when lerner woke up and started querying it was when MON started playing up
That's good enough for me. If anyone understands the internal workings of Aston Villa it's Greg Nash.
hang on, when myself and others mentioned bringing in help on transfers you yourself used to lecture us on how MON would never stand for any sort of interferance and would walk out. Now apparently he was just part of a commitee....how times change.
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That's good enough for me. If anyone understands the internal workings of Aston Villa it's Greg Nash.
I thought that MON's need for complete and utter control was one of the (very) few universally-accepted things on here. Obviously not.
I'm sure he had a big say but the suggestion that he was given free reign over finances doesn't seem likely.
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MON may well be a ******, and I'd like to tell him him that directly, but I think a few people are too quick to call him the boogeyman and blame him for all of the clubs ills.
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That's good enough for me. If anyone understands the internal workings of Aston Villa it's Greg Nash.
I thought that MON's need for complete and utter control was one of the (very) few universally-accepted things on here. Obviously not.
MON's complete and utter control of finance became universally-accepted on the first day of pre-season training when the General came on here and said we needed to get a grip of wages. Before that, Randy Lerner was universally acclaimed for doing a remarkably good job with managing the club finances and investing in the squad.
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MON had the final say on who arrived and what they were paid, more's the pity. when lerner woke up and started querying it was when MON started playing up
That's good enough for me. If anyone understands the internal workings of Aston Villa it's Greg Nash.
hang on, when myself and others mentioned bringing in help on transfers you yourself used to lecture us on how MON would never stand for any sort of interferance and would walk out. Now apparently he was just part of a commitee....how times change.
You know very well that wan't the argument, it's just you getting back into your old trolling ways.
Of course it should be down to the manager to identify the players that he wants but it's then down to the business to decide what to pay them.
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MON had the final say on who arrived and what they were paid, more's the pity. when lerner woke up and started querying it was when MON started playing up
General Krulak:
oli: The Manager, Paul, the Club secretary, the finance people, the legal/contract people and, of course, Randy is kept in the loop the entire time. As you can see, it is not just one person.
Only one of you is right and my money is on the fella with the fancy uniform.
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Actions speak louder than words and the fact we massively overspent on some players (Davies 8m??!!) and paid Harewood 30k a week shows who had the final say up until MON's last season.
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I thought Doug still had the final say for the last four years?
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It's got his shadowy handprint all over it.
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i think the tide turned against mon when paul faulkner joined the club , from that moment on it seemed that mon had lost his grip on running things hios way and the writing was on the wall.
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i think the tide turned against mon when paul faulkner joined the club , from that moment on it seemed that mon had lost his grip on running things hios way and the writing was on the wall.
I think you're probably right there. If that is a good or a bad thing, is open to debate.
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Still I would be amazed if the policy has changed greatly. If the people that the General mentions weren't involved previously then that would appear negligent on their behalf.
There's a difference being involved and having control. They were in all likelihood involved, but I would imagine, given what is known about about his management style, that MON had final say on the finer details of the deals being thrashed out. Certainly up until January of this year.
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MON had the final say on who arrived and what they were paid, more's the pity. when lerner woke up and started querying it was when MON started playing up
That's good enough for me. If anyone understands the internal workings of Aston Villa it's Greg Nash.
hang on, when myself and others mentioned bringing in help on transfers you yourself used to lecture us on how MON would never stand for any sort of interferance and would walk out. Now apparently he was just part of a commitee....how times change.
You know very well that wan't the argument, it's just you getting back into your old trolling ways.
Of course it should be down to the manager to identify the players that he wants but it's then down to the business to decide what to pay them.
if trolling means picking up on your revisionist version of history then i plead guilty.
The board backed him. If they'd said "hang on Martin, 8m for a WBA defender is a bit iffy" he would have stormed out in a huff. Just like he did two years down the line when they saw what bobbins he planned to bring in.
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Isn't it the same at all football clubs, or certainly at the Villa.
1. A manager comes in, has the backing of the board, and buys who he wants.
2. Results/circumstances change, the board no longer backs the manager/or the board start dictating what the manager should do.
3. Manager is sacked or leaves.
Start the process all over again, ad infinitum.
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no villa manager has ever had the resources that were made available to MON. or the control
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Still I would be amazed if the policy has changed greatly. If the people that the General mentions weren't involved previously then that would appear negligent on their behalf.
There's a difference being involved and having control. They were in all likelihood involved, but I would imagine, given what is known about about his management style, that MON had final say on the finer details of the deals being thrashed out. Certainly up until January of this year.
I think Randy trusted his methods as we were heading in the right direction and saw a return on the money, or at least it being used for purpose. What happened last summer was that that was no longer be the case with significant transfer fees and wages not being utilised. Now, exactly who communicated that to Martin and how they did it may be why he walked. In the same way we sometimes need to pamper to the egos of players (you're not dropped son, we're just resting you for next week) may be Faulkner could have discussed things better with his manager?
As I've said before, we'll never know for sure, but one way for the board to show it wasn't their fault is to heavily back Gezza in the market, backing that would presumably have been Martin's had to stayed and played along with the business plan they had.
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no villa manager has ever had the resources that were made available to MON. or the control
No Villa manager has ever needed the resources he had to get us challenging in cash rich Premier League we are in.
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no villa manager has ever had the resources that were made available to MON. or the control
under Doug, it doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
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Randy Lerner is not some doddering old granny who has been swindled by a sweet talking irishman.
"Here's £120M, spend it wisely, and let me know when we win the European Cup".
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MON had the final say on who arrived and what they were paid, more's the pity. when lerner woke up and started querying it was when MON started playing up
That's good enough for me. If anyone understands the internal workings of Aston Villa it's Greg Nash.
hang on, when myself and others mentioned bringing in help on transfers you yourself used to lecture us on how MON would never stand for any sort of interferance and would walk out. Now apparently he was just part of a commitee....how times change.
You know very well that wan't the argument, it's just you getting back into your old trolling ways.
Of course it should be down to the manager to identify the players that he wants but it's then down to the business to decide what to pay them.
if trolling means picking up on your revisionist version of history then i plead guilty.
The board backed him. If they'd said "hang on Martin, 8m for a WBA defender is a bit iffy" he would have stormed out in a huff. Just like he did two years down the line when they saw what bobbins he planned to bring in.
Do keep up, we're talking about wages not transfer fees.
You seem to think that Martin O'Neill is some kind of superman. Not only does he mangage the team to three sixth place finishes and a cup final he also negotiates all the players wages and writes the contracts. What do you think all of the other people who the General says were involved in these deals did?
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When Mon walked out on Celtic, they had lots of ageing and fairly useless players on long expensive contracts.
When he walks out of Villa, we have lots of ageing and fairly useless players on long expensive contracts.
But its not his fault, its the Boards ?
Well it is nearly Xmas and we are supposed to believe in miracles.
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no villa manager has ever had the resources that were made available to MON. or the control
nor has any Birmingham manager had the resources available to the current manager nor Blackburn manager nor Wigan manager nor... etc...
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I think all the other teams pay chocolate buttons but hopefully Gerard is in on this scam so we won't waste any more hard cash on pesky footballers who want paying for the priviledge.
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no villa manager has ever had the resources that were made available to MON. or the control
nor has any Birmingham manager had the resources available to the current manager nor Blackburn manager nor Wigan manager nor... etc...
I bet they have.
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I distinctly remember a period early on in MoN's tenure when he was criticised for his parsimony in regard to wages, and he had a rant about overpaid players and how he would like pay to be performance related; there was a Black Adder reference to "a cunning plan". I also seem to recall that he said he did not mind splashing the cash for the likes of Barry, Gabby and Ash, and this was in response to criticism that we were in danger of losing these players due to him treating the club's money as if it were his own.
How he went from parsimony to profligacy during his time in charge remains a mystery.
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When Mon walked out on Celtic, they had lots of ageing and fairly useless players on long expensive contracts.
When he walks out of Villa, we have lots of ageing and fairly useless players on long expensive contracts.
But its not his fault, its the Boards ?
Well it is nearly Xmas and we are supposed to believe in miracles.
It's not anyones fault. It's not true that we have lots of ageing and fairly useless players on long expensive contracts. Or at least not to any significant degree.
Premier League: Average Squad Age - Nov 2010
The average age of the current English Premier League squads.
24.24 - Arsenal
24.77 - Newcastle United
25.27 - West Bromwich Albion
25.39 - Everton
25.47 - Wolverhampton Wanderers
25.48 - Sunderland
25.67 - Wigan Athletic
25.73 - Manchester City
25.82 - West Ham United
25.89 - Chelsea
26.10 - Liverpool
26.11 - Blackpool
26.32 - Aston Villa
26.35 - Blackburn Rovers
26.42 - Manchester United
27.15 - Tottenham Hotspur
27.53 - Birmingham City
27.62 - Bolton Wanderers
28.53 - Stoke City
28.78 - Fulham
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no villa manager has ever had the resources that were made available to MON. or the control
nor has any Birmingham manager had the resources available to the current manager nor Blackburn manager nor Wigan manager nor... etc...
I bet they have.
There have been massive increases in revenue for Premier League clubs since 2006, I'd be surprised if any of them have spent less in the last few years than in any other comparable period in their history.
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MON had the final say on who arrived and what they were paid, more's the pity. when lerner woke up and started querying it was when MON started playing up
That's good enough for me. If anyone understands the internal workings of Aston Villa it's Greg Nash.
hang on, when myself and others mentioned bringing in help on transfers you yourself used to lecture us on how MON would never stand for any sort of interferance and would walk out. Now apparently he was just part of a commitee....how times change.
You know very well that wan't the argument, it's just you getting back into your old trolling ways.
Of course it should be down to the manager to identify the players that he wants but it's then down to the business to decide what to pay them.
if trolling means picking up on your revisionist version of history then i plead guilty.
The board backed him. If they'd said "hang on Martin, 8m for a WBA defender is a bit iffy" he would have stormed out in a huff. Just like he did two years down the line when they saw what bobbins he planned to bring in.
Do keep up, we're talking about wages not transfer fees.
You seem to think that Martin O'Neill is some kind of superman. Not only does he mangage the team to three sixth place finishes and a cup final he also negotiates all the players wages and writes the contracts. What do you think all of the other people who the General says were involved in these deals did?
The coaching? (winky)
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MONs approach (high wages, long contracts) meant that he got who he wanted and we could hang on to our best players, or at least get best price for them, but the other side of that coin means it is harder to get rid of the worst, under performing players.
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When Mon walked out on Celtic, they had lots of ageing and fairly useless players on long expensive contracts.
When he walks out of Villa, we have lots of ageing and fairly useless players on long expensive contracts.
But its not his fault, its the Boards ?
Well it is nearly Xmas and we are supposed to believe in miracles.
It's not anyones fault. It's not true that we have lots of ageing and fairly useless players on long expensive contracts. Or at least not to any significant degree.
Premier League: Average Squad Age - Nov 2010
The average age of the current English Premier League squads.
24.24 - Arsenal
24.77 - Newcastle United
25.27 - West Bromwich Albion
25.39 - Everton
25.47 - Wolverhampton Wanderers
25.48 - Sunderland
25.67 - Wigan Athletic
25.73 - Manchester City
25.82 - West Ham United
25.89 - Chelsea
26.10 - Liverpool
26.11 - Blackpool
26.32 - Aston Villa
26.35 - Blackburn Rovers
26.42 - Manchester United
27.15 - Tottenham Hotspur
27.53 - Birmingham City
27.62 - Bolton Wanderers
28.53 - Stoke City
28.78 - Fulham
Take Pires out of that and we would move up a few places as well
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no villa manager has ever had the resources that were made available to MON. or the control
nor has any Birmingham manager had the resources available to the current manager nor Blackburn manager nor Wigan manager nor... etc...
I bet they have.
There have been massive increases in revenue for Premier League clubs since 2006, I'd be surprised if any of them have spent less in the last few years than in any other comparable period in their history.
I'm not saying they have, but Blackburn for one would have had more money available 15 years ago had their manager chosen to spend it.
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And while we're at it, how about using a more revelant number for Today's Fabulous Fact, namely the ages of the players O'Neill used prior to running away rather than distorting it with the new breed?
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And while we're at it, how about using a more revelant number for Today's Fabulous Fact, namely the ages of the players O'Neill used prior to running away rather than distorting it with the new breed?
I was responding to Malcolm's assertion that he left us with an ageing squad, not that he had a tendency to use his more experienced players. Feel free to make your own point.
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And while we're at it, how about using a more revelant number for Today's Fabulous Fact, namely the ages of the players O'Neill used prior to running away rather than distorting it with the new breed?
I was responding to Malcolm's assertion that he left us with an ageing squad, not that he had a tendency to use his more experienced players. Feel free to make your own point.
The average age of his first team squad was a lot older than you say it was. Your Fab Facts are as misleading as ever.
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And while we're at it, how about using a more revelant number for Today's Fabulous Fact, namely the ages of the players O'Neill used prior to running away rather than distorting it with the new breed?
I was responding to Malcolm's assertion that he left us with an ageing squad, not that he had a tendency to use his more experienced players. Feel free to make your own point.
The average age of his first team squad was a lot older than you say it was. Your Fab Facts are as misleading as ever.
That's a new one. Even though that 1st team squad average age table is entirely relevant in relation to the point I was making to Malcolm, my "Fab Facts" are misleading because they didn't answer the question that you've since chosen to pose.
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That's a new one. Even though that 1st team squad average age table is entirely relevant in relation to the point I was making to Malcolm, my "Fab Facts" are misleading because they didn't answer the question that you've since chosen to pose.
No, it's a very old and tedious one. In yet another attempt to defend you-know-who, you picked one figure in isolation and ignored everything else.
He's gone. Left you. He doesn't love you anymore. Get over it - you'll feel a lot happier.
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That's a new one. Even though that 1st team squad average age table is entirely relevant in relation to the point I was making to Malcolm, my "Fab Facts" are misleading because they didn't answer the question that you've since chosen to pose.
No, it's a very old and tedious one. In yet another attempt to defend you-know-who, you picked one figure in isolation and ignored everything else.
He's gone. Left you. He doesn't love you anymore. Get over it - you'll feel a lot happier.
Leaving aside your schoolgirl taunts for moment. The sooner the likes of you and Malcolm stop trying to rewrite history, the sooner I'll be able to stop putting you right.
Malcolm made 3 points.
Useless players? well fuck off with that subjective and offensive nonsense.
Expensive contracts? it's been done to death but our wages are approx half of what the average is for the rest of last seasons top six, so that's bollocks as well.
Ageing players? I didn't know if that was right so I did a google search and posted the table because I thought maybe some others might have been under the same misapprehension as Malcolm
We've gone from one of our best seasons in 20 years to a worse start than the last time we were relegated. The primary reason for that in my opinion isn't the manager, it's that the board decided to not invest any further in the squad during 2010 and sold our best player, thereby destroying our momentum. Perhaps if you weren't so far up their arse you'd be able to take a more objective and less simplistic view on things.
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Villadawg how can you say no Blackburn manager has had the money that they have now- they bought the title under dalglish and spent a fortune on players , shearer, Sutton, batty , sherwood etc!
O neill has gone and good riddance- forget him and give houllier a chance .
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Villadawg how can you say no Blackburn manager has had the money that they have now- they bought the title under dalglish and spent a fortune on players , shearer, Sutton, batty , sherwood etc!
O neill has gone and good riddance- forget him and give houllier a chance .
I was making a general point that PL managers in the last five years have had more to spend than at any other time, so the argument that O'Neill spent more than any other Villa manager is true but is of no relevance except in relation to what other managers have been spending.
I guess I should have known better than to use Blackburn as an example even though their peak spending at the time was £8m, £2.5m and £12m according to Soccerbase.
My only interest in O'Neill is that we get back to and then improve upon the results he was able to achieve.
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I no longer have any interest in O'Neill. I am 110% behind Houllier and firmly believe that he will do better, given tme.
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That's a new one. Even though that 1st team squad average age table is entirely relevant in relation to the point I was making to Malcolm, my "Fab Facts" are misleading because they didn't answer the question that you've since chosen to pose.
No, it's a very old and tedious one. In yet another attempt to defend you-know-who, you picked one figure in isolation and ignored everything else.
He's gone. Left you. He doesn't love you anymore. Get over it - you'll feel a lot happier.
Leaving aside your schoolgirl taunts for moment. The sooner the likes of you and Malcolm stop trying to rewrite history, the sooner I'll be able to stop putting you right.
Malcolm made 3 points.
Useless players? well fuck off with that subjective and offensive nonsense.
Expensive contracts? it's been done to death but our wages are approx half of what the average is for the rest of last seasons top six, so that's bollocks as well.
Hadn't we established that we've spent more on wages than Spurs in recent times or are we still at daggers drawn over balance sheet entries and where the ''true'' figure is reflected?
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Villadawg how can you say no Blackburn manager has had the money that they have now- they bought the title under dalglish and spent a fortune on players , shearer, Sutton, batty , sherwood etc!
O neill has gone and good riddance- forget him and give houllier a chance .
I no longer have any interest in O'Neill.
It's just a pity a few more did'nt think this way.
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That's a new one. Even though that 1st team squad average age table is entirely relevant in relation to the point I was making to Malcolm, my nullFab Factsnull are misleading because they didn't answer the question that you've since chosen to pose.
No, it's a very old and tedious one. In yet another attempt to defend you-know-who, you picked one figure in isolation and ignored everything else.
He's gone. Left you. He doesn't love you anymore. Get over it - you'll feel a lot happier.
Leaving aside your schoolgirl taunts for moment. The sooner the likes of you and Malcolm stop trying to rewrite history, the sooner I'll be able to stop putting you right.
Malcolm made 3 points.
Useless players? well fuck off with that subjective and offensive nonsense.
Expensive contracts? it's been done to death but our wages are approx half of what the average is for the rest of last seasons top six, so that's bollocks as well.
Ageing players? I didn't know if that was right so I did a google search and posted the table because I thought maybe some others might have been under the same misapprehension as Malcolm
We've gone from one of our best seasons in 20 years to a worse start than the last time we were relegated. The primary reason for that in my opinion isn't the manager, it's that the board decided to not invest any further in the squad during 2010 and sold our best player, thereby destroying our momentum. Perhaps if you weren't so far up their arse you'd be able to take a more objective and less simplistic view on things.
And you talk about re-writing history.
I'll support anyone who is working for the good of Aston Villa, which the board continues to do. It's a pity you can't do the same and continue to act like a lovesick teenager who's been dumped by her first boyfriend.
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I no longer have any interest in O'Neill. I am 110% behind Houllier and firmly believe that he will do better, given tme.
That's almost how I feel, apart from an extremely vague curiosity about what MON's doing/going to do. He's gone, he's history.
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Having someone of MoN's vast footballing experience convincing a group of people with next to no footballing experience would have been, for him, like shooting fish in a barrel. How easy would it have been to wax lyrical about a potential signings technical abilities and how he can be moulded into something worth much to the club and many times it's value in the future. Piece of piss.
As I've said before, Randy's biggest mistake is not having an experienced football man between the manager and the board; someone who would have called into question the amount of money that was spent on players. I'm sure that that someone wouldn't have particularly stopped the signing of, in this instance, Beye, but would certainly have raised alarm bells on the salary on offer.
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Having someone of MoN's vast footballing experience convincing a group of people with next to no footballing experience would have been, for him, like shooting fish in a barrel. How easy would it have been to wax lyrical about a potential signings technical abilities and how he can be moulded into something worth much to the club and many times it's value in the future. Piece of piss.
As I've said before, Randy's biggest mistake is not having an experienced football man between the manager and the board; someone who would have called into question the amount of money that was spent on players. I'm sure that that someone wouldn't have particularly stopped the signing of, in this instance, Beye, but would certainly have raised alarm bells on the salary on offer.
Troy another sensible post, Randy did make a mistake he trusted MON and the guy shat on him, as DW said above some want to twist the truth to support an arguement that holds no water, Spurs have achieved a lot more with a lower wage structure this has been proved beyond any reasonable doubt and then there is Villadawg
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Having someone of MoN's vast footballing experience convincing a group of people with next to no footballing experience would have been, for him, like shooting fish in a barrel. How easy would it have been to wax lyrical about a potential signings technical abilities and how he can be moulded into something worth much to the club and many times it's value in the future. Piece of piss.
But when he turned his first major signing in Ashley Young into a player who did exactly as you outline above, why would they have any reason to doubt him? At least for the next few times, anyway. Considering the impact he and Carew had the season after they signed, I would probably have trusted him as well.
If I gave my financial advisor £1,000 which he turned into £3,000 inside a year I'd probably keep giving him a bit more on the assumption he'd do it again. I'd probably need to get burned a few times before I then thought it was a fluke.
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That's a new one. Even though that 1st team squad average age table is entirely relevant in relation to the point I was making to Malcolm, my nullFab Factsnull are misleading because they didn't answer the question that you've since chosen to pose.
No, it's a very old and tedious one. In yet another attempt to defend you-know-who, you picked one figure in isolation and ignored everything else.
He's gone. Left you. He doesn't love you anymore. Get over it - you'll feel a lot happier.
Leaving aside your schoolgirl taunts for moment. The sooner the likes of you and Malcolm stop trying to rewrite history, the sooner I'll be able to stop putting you right.
Malcolm made 3 points.
Useless players? well fuck off with that subjective and offensive nonsense.
Expensive contracts? it's been done to death but our wages are approx half of what the average is for the rest of last seasons top six, so that's bollocks as well.
Ageing players? I didn't know if that was right so I did a google search and posted the table because I thought maybe some others might have been under the same misapprehension as Malcolm
We've gone from one of our best seasons in 20 years to a worse start than the last time we were relegated. The primary reason for that in my opinion isn't the manager, it's that the board decided to not invest any further in the squad during 2010 and sold our best player, thereby destroying our momentum. Perhaps if you weren't so far up their arse you'd be able to take a more objective and less simplistic view on things.
And you talk about re-writing history.
I'll support anyone who is working for the good of Aston Villa, which the board continues to do. It's a pity you can't do the same and continue to act like a lovesick teenager who's been dumped by her first boyfriend.
I don’t need lessons from you in support or loyalty towards employees and officers of the club thanks. Working for the good of Aston Villa is the minimum requirement and doesn’t preclude having an opinion that they’ve made mistakes or could have done better.
I disagree with the notion that O’Neill is the primary cause of the problems we are facing right now. I think he did a very good job with the resources available and relative to the resources of the clubs we were attempting to compete with. When I read the overly simplistic and often downright incorrect ramblings from one or two of the posters on here, such as Malcolm’s ageing squad – useless players – expensive contracts nonsense, I sometimes feel compelled to put their observations into context.
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If working for the good of Aston Villa is the minimum requirement why do you continue to blindly defend a man who did more damage to the club in one act than anyone else ever has?
I gave up after the start of your second pararaph. Not even you could possibly believe that.
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Having someone of MoN's vast footballing experience convincing a group of people with next to no footballing experience would have been, for him, like shooting fish in a barrel. How easy would it have been to wax lyrical about a potential signings technical abilities and how he can be moulded into something worth much to the club and many times it's value in the future. Piece of piss.
But when he turned his first major signing in Ashley Young into a player who did exactly as you outline above, why would they have any reason to doubt him? At least for the next few times, anyway. Considering the impact he and Carew had the season after they signed, I would probably have trusted him as well.
If I gave my financial advisor £1,000 which he turned into £3,000 inside a year I'd probably keep giving him a bit more on the assumption he'd do it again. I'd probably need to get burned a few times before I then thought it was a fluke.
That's a very good point, Dave. However, I'd like to think that, regardless of his record, there'd be someone there to ride his arse and make him justify every single signing on the merit of each individual case rather than basing any executive decision on what went before. Yes, he certainly did make some excellent choices but I'd be more likely to give him 100% trust once he'd acheived the kind of record that Arsene Wenger has achieved. And even then, to be honest, I'd hope that there was some kind of firewall to prevent ego/luck/dodginess happening.
If you are to going to judge a manager and allow him latitude based on the quality of his last signing, then the money should stop flowing once a complete muppet has been brought on board. Of course, every manager makes mistakes so that's not a realistic scenario either.
No, I'm convinced that every signing should be questioned by the footballing guy paid to ask questions. If the manager has valid reasons and can back up his arguement enough to convince an experienced football executive, then signatures are put on dotted lines and cheques signed.
At the end of the day, these players are massive investments for a business - yes, football is a business, no matter how much we like to think it's something much more - and there should be someone there to look at how each investment may or may not perform. At the wife's work, they've got an incredible track record for purchasing quality commercial property. It still doesn't give them carte blanche to go out and buy whatever they like. There are still an awful lot of checks and balances in place to ensure that this track record remains impressive and to protect the shareholder.
I don't see why it should be any different for a football manager. yes, we'd no doubt miss out on some absolute gems but it would also hopefully prevent absolute disasters. And we've a few of those on board at the moment. I'm not suggesting anything like a Director of Football, just someone who's been in the game long enough to cast an experienced eye over anything that the manager has requested and ask the tough questions.
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Young wasn't his first major signing. Petrov was.
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Young wasn't his first major signing. Petrov was.
The point still stands. If you're trying to decide whether it's worth giving the manager more money based on the collective signings of Carew, Petrov and Young then do you give him more to try and do the same with other players?
I would.
I fully appreciate that if the board ask whether they want to give O'Neill more money based on the signings of Davies, Sidwell and Reo-Coker then one might be skeptical, but obviously that wasn't something they could do at the time.
He wasn't perfect, but for the most part I would say he made enough good transfers to keep credit in the bank for the bad ones. And if you are the person dishing out the transfer funds, I think that is going to be the bottom line.
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Young wasn't his first major signing. Petrov was.
Quite. And (blinding debut at the Boleyn Ground apart) his first few months at Villa, before we signed Ashley, indeed his first two seasons, were very, very average. Lerner's first transfer window gave him the opportunity to really back his manager and he did. Young-Carew-Maloney-Bardsley. MON believed the manager is the most important man at the club. Randy probably did too.
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Young wasn't his first major signing. Petrov was.
The point still stands. If you're trying to decide whether it's worth giving the manager more money based on the collective signings of Carew, Petrov and Young then do you give him more to try and do the same with other players?
I would.
I don't think it was a matter of how good the players were. Randy would have given the manger money to spend regardless, just as he always did. What happened last summer, and more importantly why it happened, none of us know.
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I was just looking at Leicester City forum to see how Davies is getting on and there is a topic with Habib Beye as a transfer target. Even there fans see him as a back up right back and probably not worth having.
As regards training ground bust ups, isn't it the norm during a new regime. Some faces don't fit, players getting hacked off as its them who don't like it, players used to having how it was etc.
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Young wasn't his first major signing. Petrov was.
The point still stands. If you're trying to decide whether it's worth giving the manager more money based on the collective signings of Carew, Petrov and Young then do you give him more to try and do the same with other players?
I would.
I don't think it was a matter of how good the players were. Randy would have given the manger money to spend regardless, just as he always did. What happened last summer, and more importantly why it happened, none of us know.
Agreed, but that's not really the point I'm arguing. There seems to be a vein of querying whether he SHOULD have been backing him so heavily throughout that time, not on what grounds he would have done.
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You agree that Petrov didn't come good until his third season though?
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If working for the good of Aston Villa is the minimum requirement why do you continue to blindly defend a man who did more damage to the club in one act than anyone else ever has?
I gave up after the start of your second pararaph. Not even you could possibly believe that.
I'm not trying to blindly defend him, I'm refusing to go along with this pretence that he was given the resources available to Spurs, Man City and the traditional Sky 4 or that he did less than a very good job.
I think his leaving was an effect, caused by a change of board policy from building a CL squad through investment to one of managing our costs relative to our current turnover, which isn't enough to support a CL squad.
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It isn't pretence, it's fact. And you can think all you like, but you still won't alter the other facts that he's gone, he caused us a lot of damage and whatever good he may have done has been wiped out by the manner of his going.
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It isn't pretence, it's fact. And you can think all you like, but you still won't alter the other facts that he's gone, he caused us a lot of damage and whatever good he may have done has been wiped out by the manner of his going.
I'm losing track of what you consider to be fact but it isn't important what you or I think, facts are facts.
You say you don't know what happened last Summer or why it happened, you just know it was O'Neill's fault. Good for you.
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A quick scan of MON's first choice XI last year will surely back up VD's claims eh?
Friedel - 39
Cuellar- 29
Dunne- 31
Collins - 27
Warnock- 29
Downing- 26
Petrov- 31
Milner- 24
Ashley Young- 25
Carew - 31
Gabby- 24
Plus the likes of Beye (33) Heskey (32) and Luke Young (31) in and around the squad.
9 players either close to or over 30 featuring regularly in the side might be at odds with any suggestion that MON left us with a balanced, young squad I'd have thought.
Or are we saying he'd have gone against his instincts and given Bannan, Delfouneso, Hogg and co more game time this year, when he previously had no inclination to do so? With a similar spate of injuries (which he may or may not have encountered had he not bailed when he did) his hand may have been forced. But under normal circumstances I doubt the above trio would have been anywhere near the starting XI on his watch.
So whilst they would have *officially* been included as squad members, to include players who have barely featured in first team football before as proof positive that the overall average of the side that MON left was healthy might, just might be viewed as a tad slanted.
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bottom line is in real terms and in relation to rivals he had much more to spend than any other villa manager. Claiming its just inflation is plain daft. Even the anomalies of chelsea and latterly Citeh don't alter that fact. when we were spending 2m on heath and cascarino in 90/ 91, Manu were spending 5M. Now i'm pretty sure last season that whatever we spent Man U didn't double it. or Liverpool, or tottenham. there wasn't that sort of gap between the clubs in real terms in spending
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A quick scan of MON's first choice XI last year will surely back up VD's claims eh?
Friedel - 39
Cuellar- 29
Dunne- 31
Collins - 27
Warnock- 29
Downing- 26
Petrov- 31
Milner- 24
Ashley Young- 25
Carew - 31
Gabby- 24
Plus the likes of Beye (33) Heskey (32) and Luke Young (31) in and around the squad.
9 players either close to or over 30 featuring regularly in the side might be at odds with any suggestion that MON left us with a balanced, young squad I'd have thought.
Or are we saying he'd have gone against his instincts and given Bannan, Delfouneso, Hogg and co more game time this year, when he previously had no inclination to do so? With a similar spate of injuries (which he may or may not have encountered had he not bailed when he did) his hand may have been forced. But under normal circumstances I doubt the above trio would have been anywhere near the starting XI on his watch.
So whilst they would have *officially* been included as squad members, to include players who have barely featured in first team football before as proof positive that the overall average of the side that MON left was healthy might, just might be viewed as a tad slanted.
That's interesting but what does it tell you if you don't compare it to other teams? Do the other clubs not have a tendency to play their more experienced players when they're uninjured?
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bottom line is in real terms and in relation to rivals he had much more to spend than any other villa manager. Claiming its just inflation is plain daft. Even the anomalies of chelsea and latterly Citeh don't alter that fact. when we were spending 2m on heath and cascarino in 90/ 91, Manu were spending 5M. Now i'm pretty sure last season that whatever we spent Man U didn't double it. or Liverpool, or tottenham. there wasn't that sort of gap between the clubs in real terms in spending
I don't know what the traditional sky 4 have spent in the time Lerner has been here but I reckon most people would accept that they had already built their squads by the time we started under Lerner and have been trading rather than building. Most people would also accept that Man City have spent a lot of money. I can't remember the exact figure for what Spurs managers have spent on players, I have posted it previously but I think it was £335m.
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I dunno.
But one could quite easily make the argument that with only two of his first choice signings currently 25 or under (even if one of them is now at Man Citeh) and nine in the 30 bracket (or not far off) then at least part of Malcolm's claim vis a vis ageing squad has merit.
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I always thought the problem was that MON wouldn't push the boat out for that one top signing that would bridge the gap from top 6 to top 4, it sounded like Randy was itching to give him more money rather than less money.
We've still got £18M from the Milner deal so it's not like the cupboard is bare.
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You agree that Petrov didn't come good until his third season though?
I'd say he was certainly better when he moved to his current position. I certainly don't think he was a disaster beforehand though.
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I dunno.
But one could quite easily make the argument that with only two of his first choice signings currently 25 or under (even if one of them is now at Man Citeh) and nine in the 30 bracket (or not far off) then at least part of Malcolm's claim vis a vis ageing squad has merit.
I think 9 in the 30 bracket is a little misleading, it was always thought 27-30 was the peak for footballers which is what we have got, the only trouble with that is that once you get past 30 you're unlikely to recoup your transfer fee back, but then do we want them to play for us or do we want them as assets. A comparision to the league champions would be interesting.
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I always thought the problem was that MON wouldn't push the boat out for that one top signing that would bridge the gap from top 6 to top 4, it sounded like Randy was itching to give him more money rather than less money.
Yep. Randy never had any issues with him signing that grand player for a shitload of money and massive wages.
He did have a massive problem with him signing shit players for massive money and massive wages to never be heard of again.
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I always thought the problem was that MON wouldn't push the boat out for that one top signing that would bridge the gap from top 6 to top 4, it sounded like Randy was itching to give him more money rather than less money.
Yep. Randy never had any issues with him signing that grand player for a shitload of money and massive wages.
He did have a massive problem with him signing shit players for massive money and massive wages to never be heard of again.
Exactly my thoughts.
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I always thought the problem was that MON wouldn't push the boat out for that one top signing that would bridge the gap from top 6 to top 4, it sounded like Randy was itching to give him more money rather than less money.
Yep. Randy never had any issues with him signing that grand player for a shitload of money and massive wages.
He did have a massive problem with him signing shit players for massive money and massive wages to never be heard of again.
I agree with you, and back on topic I think Habib Beye was probably the one that tipped the balance for Randy, an ordindary ageing full back on ridiculous wages playing the first few games in the season.
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I do
I always thought the problem was that MON wouldn't push the boat out for that one top signing that would bridge the gap from top 6 to top 4, it sounded like Randy was itching to give him more money rather than less money.
Yep. Randy never had any issues with him signing that grand player for a shitload of money and massive wages.
He did have a massive problem with him signing shit players for massive money and massive wages to never be heard of again.
I agree with you, and back on topic I think Habib Beye was probably the one that tipped the balance for Randy, an ordindary ageing full back on ridiculous wages playing the first few games in the season.
I think it was just pure economics rather than a judgement on the standards of players; i.e. we're at the limit of the wage bill so if you want any more players you have to sell so that we keep it at around the same level.
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Cynical Question: Do Beye and Dunne share the same agent?
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I no longer have any interest in O'Neill. I am 110% behind Houllier and firmly believe that he will do better, given tme.
Agreed.
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I dunno.
But one could quite easily make the argument that with only two of his first choice signings currently 25 or under (even if one of them is now at Man Citeh) and nine in the 30 bracket (or not far off) then at least part of Malcolm's claim vis a vis ageing squad has merit.
I think 9 in the 30 bracket is a little misleading, it was always thought 27-30 was the peak for footballers which is what we have got, the only trouble with that is that once you get past 30 you're unlikely to recoup your transfer fee back, but then do we want them to play for us or do we want them as assets. A comparision to the league champions would be interesting.
I don't think it's particularly misleading. We're half way through the current campaign. By the start of next season 8 of that 9 will be 30 or over and Warnock will be 30 in December 2011.
I accept that 30 isn't viewed a quite the cut off point it was many moons ago and that players in decent condition can easily play until their mid 30's and beyond now.
Nevertheless, it's still far from ideal to have the bulk of your first choice XI all growing old together, and that's part of the situation GH inherited. You could possibly get away with that if they were as talented and as Chelsea's lot and took care of themselves, but our lot aren't in that bracket.
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I dunno.
But one could quite easily make the argument that with only two of his first choice signings currently 25 or under (even if one of them is now at Man Citeh) and nine in the 30 bracket (or not far off) then at least part of Malcolm's claim vis a vis ageing squad has merit.
I think 9 in the 30 bracket is a little misleading, it was always thought 27-30 was the peak for footballers which is what we have got, the only trouble with that is that once you get past 30 you're unlikely to recoup your transfer fee back, but then do we want them to play for us or do we want them as assets. A comparision to the league champions would be interesting.
I don't think it's particularly misleading. We're half way through the current campaign. By the start of next season 8 of that 9 will be 30 or over and Warnock will be 30 in December 2011.
I accept that 30 isn't viewed a quite the cut off point it was many moons ago and that players in decent condition can easily play until their mid 30's and beyond now.
Nevertheless, it's still far from ideal to have the bulk of your first choice XI all growing old together, and that's part of the situation GH inherited. You could possibly get away with that if they were as talented and as Chelsea's lot and took care of themselves, but our lot aren't in that bracket.
Of course it's misleading. You categorised every villa player over the age of 24 as "in the 30 bracket (or not far off)". Now you're added another year or more to their ages "by the start of next season...will be 30 in December.." in order to make your "over 30" point. You then go on to say it doesn't matter if Chelsea do it because their players "took care of themselves".
There may be a point somewhere in all of this regarding age but it isn't the average age of the squad and it isn't the number of players over the "peak age".
Number of Players 28 and over at start of 2010/2011 (taken from transfermarkt.co.uk)
Man utd 15
Chelsea 13
Arsenal 4
Spurs 10
Man City 9
Villa 11
Liverpool 13
Everton 12
Etc...
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Well if I'm going to be lectured on misleading stats I'm so glad that it's the Stats Dawg who pulled me up on it.
In very simple terms: GH took over in Sep 2010.
By Sep 2011, eight of the personnel he inherited who were (a) either first team regulars or (b) were in and around the first team will be 30 or over, and one will be 30 three months later. Use all the statistical gymnastics you like (and God knows you usually do) but you won't be able to alter that fact. There's your nine. With most teams only able to field 11 players at any one time, that's a touch on the high side, wouldn't you say?
That's not saying they'll all still be with us by 2011, of course. I'd wager at least half will be gone by then. But that's the situation GH inherited. A point I'd have thought fairly easy to comprehend. Unless you were deliberately trying to ignore the obvious to -in some way- validate the previous manager. And you wouldn't be attempting that, would you?
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Well if I'm going to be lectured on misleading stats I'm so glad that it's the Stats Dawg who pulled me up on it.
In very simple terms: GH took over in Sep 2010.
By Sep 2011, eight of the personnel he inherited who were (a) either first team regulars or (b) were in and around the first team will be 30 or over, and one will be 30 three months later. Use all the statistical gymnastics you like (and God knows you usually do) but you won't be able to alter that fact. There's your nine. With most teams only able to field 11 players at any one time, that's a touch on the high side, wouldn't you say?
That's not saying they'll all still be with us by 2011, of course. I'd wager at least half will be gone by then. But that's the situation GH inherited. A point I'd have thought fairly easy to comprehend. Unless you were deliberately trying to ignore the obvious to -in some way- validate the previous manager. And you wouldn't be attempting that, would you?
You're missing the point.
The situation regarding player age that you describe Gerard inheriting at Villa, doesn't appear to be significantly different from the situation that he would have inherited at any other top 8 team except Arsenal. It isn't high, it isn't low, it is normal.
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heh! good old villadawg. why did you decide to choose 28 as your comparison point? is 28 the new 30?
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heh! good old villadawg. why did you decide to choose 28 as your comparison point? is 28 the new 30?
I'd guess because 26-30 is considered 'peak' time for a footballer.
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yeah, i'm sure thats why he chose 28 ::)
However a fairer stat is the following. When he left the club, 7 players were well over 30
Friedel
l. young
Dunne
Carew
Heskey
Petrov
Beye
of the rest, 3 look to have no future at the club
Sidwell
Salifou
Davies
which leaves 8 below 30 and not all of them are regulars or guaranteed to become 1st team players
young
Warnock
ceullar
Downing
collins
Delpth
Guzan
NRC
now considering there are no players left from previous managers, 8 players out of 17 players with a possible long term future at the club is a not very impressive legacy given the amount of time he had. Ancellotti may have an old squad but a lot of them are inherited world class players not bought by him. Ferguson may have an old squad but a lot of them are former youth players he paid nowt for. big difference. Another relevant point is clubs like Citeh and chelsea can afford to have an older squad because frankly they have the vast resources to replace them every 4 years. We on the other hand haven't so we better hope the youngsters are as good as we think they are.
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Beye is one of the worst players for villa ive ever seen get rid in january.will only be on a free cause i carnt see any one paying for him!!
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yeah, i'm sure thats why he chose 28 ::)
However a fairer stat is the following. When he left the club, 7 players were well over 30
Friedel
l. young
Dunne
Carew
Heskey
Petrov
Beye
of the rest, 3 look to have no future at the club
Sidwell
Salifou
Davies
which leaves 8 below 30 and not all of them are regulars or guaranteed to become 1st team players
young
Warnock
ceullar
Downing
collins
Delpth
Guzan
NRC
now considering there are no players left from previous managers, 8 players out of 17 players with a possible long term future at the club is a not very impressive legacy given the amount of time he had. Ancellotti may have an old squad but a lot of them are inherited world class players not bought by him. Ferguson may have an old squad but a lot of them are former youth players he paid nowt for. big difference. Another relevant point is clubs like Citeh and chelsea can afford to have an older squad because frankly they have the vast resources to replace them every 4 years. We on the other hand haven't so we better hope the youngsters are as good as we think they are.
I chose 28 because it would include all of the players who would fall into Kevin's expansive "over age" category of players who will be 30 in December 2011 i.e. 17 months after O'Neill left the club.
I suppose I could now go and have a look at your category of players who "were well over 30" and see how it compares to other clubs but it would be just as easy for you to do it yourself. Although seeing as 2 of your 7 were aged 30 when O'Neill left and another 2 had turned 31 the month before he left, I probably wouldn't label it as "players who were well over 30"
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Beye is one of the worst players for villa ive ever seen get rid in january.will only be on a free cause i carnt see any one paying for him!!
If he's one of the worst you've ever seen down the Villa, then I can only guess you're a young fella. :)
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yeah, i'm sure thats why he chose 28 ::)
However a fairer stat is the following. When he left the club, 7 players were well over 30
Friedel
l. young
Dunne
Carew
Heskey
Petrov
Beye
of the rest, 3 look to have no future at the club
Sidwell
Salifou
Davies
which leaves 8 below 30 and not all of them are regulars or guaranteed to become 1st team players
young
Warnock
ceullar
Downing
collins
Delpth
Guzan
NRC
now considering there are no players left from previous managers, 8 players out of 17 players with a possible long term future at the club is a not very impressive legacy given the amount of time he had. Ancellotti may have an old squad but a lot of them are inherited world class players not bought by him. Ferguson may have an old squad but a lot of them are former youth players he paid nowt for. big difference. Another relevant point is clubs like Citeh and chelsea can afford to have an older squad because frankly they have the vast resources to replace them every 4 years. We on the other hand haven't so we better hope the youngsters are as good as we think they are.
I chose 28 because it would include all of the players who would fall into Kevin's expansive "over age" category of players who will be 30 in December 2011 i.e. 17 months after O'Neill left the club.
I suppose I could now go and have a look at your category of players who "were well over 30" and see how it compares to other clubs but it would be just as easy for you to do it yourself. Although seeing as 2 of your 7 were aged 30 when O'Neill left and another 2 had turned 31 the month before he left, I probably wouldn't label it as "players who were well over 30"
Nice try.
Most wouldn't consider a year in any one job a particularly long time, yet if GH manages it -and was to keep all the gems he inherited from MON- he'd have 8 players 30 or over and one soon to follow. Hardly a desirable situation, Wouldn't you agree?
The list I've included features players that actually played under MON. The average you arrived at (or borrowed from today's favourite and entirely reliable stat site) most likely includes youth players who barely -if ever- featured under MON. You can see how an average lowered by including the likes of Elliot Parish, James Collins jnr and Nathan Baker for example might be viewed viewed with some suspicion.
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Is it me or is this one of the most tediously pointless threads in a huge history of tediously pointless threads?
Yes, yes, I know, don't read it or post on it if you don't like it, but there is something almost mesmerising about the way certain posters can turn a relatively benign thread into an epic borefest!
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Most wouldn't consider a year in any one job a particularly long time, yet if GH manages it -and was to keep all the gems he inherited from MON- he'd have 8 players 30 or over and one soon to follow. Hardly a desirable situation, Wouldn't you agree?
I could easily be wrong on this, but I'd have thought most clubs would have seven or eight players in their squad aged 30 or over?
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In an overall, balanced squad of 25, it can probably be managed, yes.
With some (as per Neville and Giggs at Man U) playing bit part roles.
But the nine players I mentioned made up the core of the starting XI last year, or were on the fringes of the first XI, which is a bit different.
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I'd have thought the easiest way to describe the position MON left/GH inherited would be ...
A top six side - a good 1st XI but with plenty of quantity but very little/unproven quality in depth
Minus arguably its best player - Milner (12 goals a season)
Minus arguably its best forward - Carew no longer interested or fubar (15 goals a season)
I'm not sure what that calculates out at but I'd guess mid-table. I'm not sure how relevant the age profile is, other than to state the obvious that older players are more injury prone , so the squad might have struggled to get top six again this year anyway.
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Is it me or is this one of the most tediously pointless threads in a huge history of tediously pointless threads?
Yes, yes, I know, don't read it or post on it if you don't like it, but there is something almost mesmerising about the way certain posters can turn a relatively benign thread into an epic borefest!
I agree Dave. Most of your contributions are the internet equivalent of Ambien (winky effort).
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Yeah Cooper.
For cough and go and go and listen the Ting Tings, ya daft Abba hater.
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Young wasn't his first major signing. Petrov was.
The point still stands. If you're trying to decide whether it's worth giving the manager more money based on the collective signings of Carew, Petrov and Young then do you give him more to try and do the same with other players?
I would.
I don't think it was a matter of how good the players were. Randy would have given the manger money to spend regardless, just as he always did. What happened last summer, and more importantly why it happened, none of us know.
Dave - Maybe somebody did statistics of unused assets and their wages, and showed it to Randy (Propably Villadawg ) and the rest is history.