Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: wozwebs on September 25, 2010, 03:20:24 PM
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Just flicking round the grounds on my foreign dish, got 3 live games on in HD. Liverpool have just scored a goal that MOTD and TalkShite will be talking about for ages to come.
Sunderland are awarded a free kick midway through their own half. All players head up to the Liverpool penalty area. One Sunderland player taps the balk slightly towered his keeper so he can take it. Ball doesn't move very far, Dirk Kuyt pounces on it, runs on and Liverpool score. Nobody can believe it and the referee allows the goal. Bizarre. Stuart Atwell will get some grief for it im sure
Reminded me of the Andy Dimble, Gary Crosby header out the hand when nobody though it would count.
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Liverpool get more off referees than any other team. Manure included.
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Something happens everytime Stuart Atwell referees a game, how does he still get appointed?
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I'd say after this he might not again
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If the ball's stationery in the correct spot of the free kick and a player touches it with his foot then as far as I'm concerned its been taken.
Therefore, without having seen the video yet, the goal sounds OK to me. Its an error by Sunderland not by the ref
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If he did not say wait for the whistle and ball rolled enough than I don't see what's wrong?
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Had Attwell already blown the whistle?
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No, he blew after he tapped it apparantly.
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Just flicking round the grounds on my foreign dish, got 3 live games on in HD.
Which foreign dish set up do you have, wozwebs?
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It'll be like the beach ball goal discussions all over again.
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the whistle had been blown according to collymore, so he had taken the free kick. well done kuyt. refs done nothing wrong. apparently thier keeper could have got the ball but did'nt play to the whistle and stopped.
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its steve bruce i feel sorry for ;D
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its steve bruce i feel sorry for ;D
Because of the goal or for having a head the same size as a breadbin?
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There was nothing wrong with that Crosby goal, the keeper obviously didn't have full control of the ball otherwise Crosby couldn't have nodded it out of his hand, thats why keepers are supposed to do what they do in panto and look behind them. Havn't seen todays yet, if the ref blew then it's a goal - if he didn't blow and allowed the goal it's a messy one.
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Just flicking round the grounds on my foreign dish, got 3 live games on in HD.
Watching on Norweigen channels. PL TV, uses Football Firs English commentary. Albion has Trevor 'fucking' Francis on.
Which foreign dish set up do you have, wozwebs?
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Look forward to seeing it on match of the day.
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You can find the goal here...
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=263629.80
Towards the bottom of the page within the thread.
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Seems ok to me.
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I think Sunderland did fuck up there but you see similar things over less of a distance all the time in the Prem and players and Refs don't assume the ball has been kicked. Most refs only blow for the resumption of a freekick when there is a shot at goal chance and he has to sort out the wall..
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Just watched it on the link above and as far as I'm concerned as bad as it looks the goal stands. What people don't realise is that a referee does not have to blow his whistle to start/restart the game or indeed to make a decision it just helps. He could in all probability have said to the Sunderland player "whenever you're ready get on with it" and as long as the ball travels it's own circumference then it's in play and fair enough the Liverpool player was in the wide awake club. There was a get out clause for the referee if he'd been thinking on his feet, he could have called play back and said he wasn't ready. Not fully honest but it would have avoided all the flack he's going to get. Also as a junior referee you are always told to always run backwards wherever possible keeping the flashpoint situations in view and this lad obviously didn't. I know there are people out there who think that referee's are dim witted scum of the earth types only out to screw their club over but incidents of this type only go to prove just how difficult it can be, even though if God meant us to run backward He would have put our feet on the other way round!
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That goal is a disgrace. Massive poor sportsmanship by scousers (I am suprised this suprises me). Whats pivotal is whether the free kick should have been taken from the spot he back heeled the ball or further back. Either way common sense should prevail. Its the same as when a guy goes to take a throw but then decides to give it to his team mate and underarms it to him. Should refs award a foul throw?
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Looks OK to me.
It looks like the Sunderland player was passing it to the keeper (as would have been the norm when keepers could pick up the ball) rather than rolling it to a spot for the keeper to take.
A definite balls up by Sunderland and all credit to Kuyt and Liverpool. When you're in the shite like they are, you've go to take advantage of every scrap that's thrown to you.
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Seen the link. Very surprised and shocked that Lpool supporters can write and embed Video links in a chat forum!
Oh the goal nothing wrong with it. Ref blew and ran off allowing the Sunderland player to do what he likes. He kicked it back towards the Goalkeeper...and rest is history now!
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Looks like a fucked up back pass to me.
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Look OK to me too.
I do wander though if that was at the other end then would Mr Attwell have allowed it?
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i hate Liverpool so when i watched the clip provided i was really hoping that it was going to make Livepool look like right cheating gits
but it doesnt, the Sunderland player dropped a massive clanger and was punished.
the sportmanship issue for me is when players cheat to gain an advantage, not when playing the game within the rules
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i hate Liverpool so when i watched the clip provided i was really hoping that it was going to make Livepool look like right cheating gits
but it doesnt, the Sunderland player dropped a massive clanger and was punished.
the sportmanship issue for me is when players cheat to gain an advantage, not when playing the game within the rules
You don't see what they did as bad sportsmanship?!
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How is scoring from that a blatant error on behalf of Sunderland bad sportsmanship?
Bad sportsmanship is playing on when an opposition player is down injured or not throwing the ball back if a team kicked the ball into touch for your injured player to receive treatment. Intercepting a poor back pass to the keeper once the ball is active and in play is not bad sportsmanship.
I'm yet to see full clear coverage but from what I've seen Sunderland only have their players to be blame.
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i hate Liverpool so when i watched the clip provided i was really hoping that it was going to make Livepool look like right cheating gits
but it doesnt, the Sunderland player dropped a massive clanger and was punished.
the sportmanship issue for me is when players cheat to gain an advantage, not when playing the game within the rules
You don't see what they did as bad sportsmanship?!
no, because the defender made a mistake, he was punished for it, he lost concentration and cost his side a goal, harsh maybe but well within the rules,
if you can remember a game at Arsenal against Shef Utd, Utd were expecting the ball to be played back to the goalie and Arsenal went and scored from it,
now that was bad sportmanship, but the game should never have been replayed because it was within the rules of the game, just bad sportmanship from Arsenal,
in this instance the defender has slipped up, and thats what happens when you take your eye of the ball, you get punished, which is what happened here
notice Steve Bruce was involved in both incidents, unlucky eh...
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I think the defender was passing the ball back to the goalie to take the free kick not just underhitting a pass to the goalie which Torres intercepted.
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No doubt that was his intention but its still his mistake.
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I think the defender was passing the ball back to the goalie to take the free kick not just underhitting a pass to the goalie which Torres intercepted.
I disagree. It looked like a back pass to me.
I think we'll see a lot of picking the ball up and carrying/throwing it in the coming weeks
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MOTD showed that the ref had turned his back on the restart and didnt have a clue what was happening, you can argue all you like about the technacalities of what happened but there was a deriliction of duty on the part of the ref wanker
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Yep having seen on MOTD, the situation could easily have been avoided if the ref wasnt so incompetent and shit.
Play was brought back due to Sunderland taking a quick free kick. Ball is passed back towards keeper after ref runs away from play without blowing his whistle to restart play. The correct thing to do would have paid attention and signalled restart of play accordingly, so its a situation created by yet another referee blunder. All the way through the highlights you hear his whistle clearly, so why didnt he signal restart of play having blown for the freekick to be taken again?
There is a case for both sides, but the responsibility for this mess is with the ref. Its about time the FA removed him from the PL rota and let him learn his trade in the lower leagues, but the FA also need to clear up the rules regarding "play to the whistle" rather than letting refs make their own rules over quick freekicks.
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MOTD showed that the ref had turned his back on the restart and didnt have a clue what was happening, you can argue all you like about the technacalities of what happened but there was a deriliction of duty on the part of the ref wanker
With the assistant ref looking at it, which is his job.
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Im going to defend Atwell here.
The Laws of the game state, that a free kick is taken when the ball is kicked and moves. (it doesnt need to move its circumference anymore).
The ball was placed where the ref wanted it an the Sunderland player kicked it back to his own goal, therefore once he has done that, in law, the ball is in play.
People can argue all they want about the players intentions etc, but the bottom line is, he did kick it and it moved.
Unless an infringement has taken place, the ref cant disallow it.
As for him not running backwards, im sure he was expecting the ball to be launched forward, and he just wanted to get into position asap, as any ref would in that situation.
He doesnt need to blow for the kick to be taken, just give a signal. In most cases in defensive free kicks, if they just want to 'get on with it' then there is no need to blow.
The one occasion they will insist on the whistle is on 'ceremonial' ones outside the box, when the attacking team is asked wether they want 10yrds or a quick one. If its a quick one then the ref will back away, if 10yrds he will raise hius whistle to indicate the whistle will be blown.
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Great 'You are The Ref' summary there.
Personally, I think the decision stinks. Ref not even looking and a blatant piece of gamesmanship by Liverpool. If it happened the other way round, I think the ref would have struggled to get out of Merseyside.
I'm also amazed that this referee is taking control of Premier League fixtures seeing he was responsible for the 'ghost goal' at Watford last season.
Lets see what happens when he take charge of a game at Villa Park. I'll wager he'll be the main talking point in the post match thread.
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Great 'You are The Ref' summary there.
Personally, I think the decision stinks. Ref not even looking and a blatant piece of gamesmanship by Liverpool. If it happened the other way round, I think the ref would have struggled to get out of Merseyside.
I'm also amazed that this referee is taking control of Premier League fixtures seeing he was responsible for the 'ghost goal' at Watford last season.
Lets see what happens when he take charge of a game at Villa Park. I'll wager he'll be the main talking point in the post match thread.
And if we score a goal like that every one of us will say well done ref.
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Great 'You are The Ref' summary there.
Personally, I think the decision stinks. Ref not even looking and a blatant piece of gamesmanship by Liverpool. If it happened the other way round, I think the ref would have struggled to get out of Merseyside.
I'm also amazed that this referee is taking control of Premier League fixtures seeing he was responsible for the 'ghost goal' at Watford last season.
Lets see what happens when he take charge of a game at Villa Park. I'll wager he'll be the main talking point in the post match thread.
And if we score a goal like that every one of us will say well done ref.
And well done to the players for their quick thinking.
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The only thing that I can see that's wrong with it is that Liverpool benefitted from it.
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Exactly. Now, the incident Dave Cooper and I witnessed today. Keeper goes up for a ball with a forward, drops it, lands awkwardly. He's lying on the ground, opponent taps the ball into the net before the ref can stop play. No foul, so the goal is rightly given. But if that was in the Premier League it would lead to a furore of "Shouldn't have been allowed/the ref is shit" remarks. Most of the time we say they've made a mistake because it's them who knows the laws, not us.
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Great 'You are The Ref' summary there.
Personally, I think the decision stinks. Ref not even looking and a blatant piece of gamesmanship by Liverpool. If it happened the other way round, I think the ref would have struggled to get out of Merseyside.
I'm also amazed that this referee is taking control of Premier League fixtures seeing he was responsible for the 'ghost goal' at Watford last season.
Lets see what happens when he take charge of a game at Villa Park. I'll wager he'll be the main talking point in the post match thread.
Thank you Pete.
i think some are making more of it just because of who the ref was.
I can understand him not looking because he wanted to get into position for the kick being taken and launched towards the Liverpool area, and running forwards was the best way. His A/R saw it, and obviously informed him what had happened, hence the goal was allowed.
As i have tried to point out, once the Sunderland player kicks the ball, and the ball moves, then its in play. On this occasion, the Liverpool players were more awake then Sunderland.
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Im also certain he has reffed us before.
The fact i nor you (pete) can remember, shows he did nothing wrong. Its a fact, supporters only remember a ref when he has a bad game (in their opinion), not the games when he has a good game.
I did a cup game, at a team near me 4yrs ago, and the home team lost. It was a feisty game, and i sent a home team player off. I got slated by the home team, but praised by the away side.
I went back and did another 4 games in the league at that club, that all passed without incident, but every time i went back, the pre-match remarks from the supporters, were 'its that wanker from that cup game'.
Thats the only game they remembered.
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Atwell's made a rod for his own back by allowing it.
As soon as he sees that Liverpool are playing on while the Sunderland players laugh at their presumptuousness he has plenty of time to blow his whistle and brought play back - and nobody would have even batted an eyelid, let alone be discussing it on ever forum and phone-in across the land.
Best of luck to him, he's going to need it if he's sticking to professional refereeing as a career.
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Atwell's made a rod for his own back by allowing it.
As soon as he sees that Liverpool are playing on while the Sunderland players laugh at their presumptuousness he has plenty of time to blow his whistle and brought play back - and nobody would have even batted an eyelid, let alone be discussing it on ever forum and phone-in across the land.
Best of luck to him, he's going to need it if he's sticking to professional refereeing as a career.
Dave. He couldnt disallow it. Read my previous posts.
His job as a ref is to apply the Laws of the game, and in this case he did. A goal can only be disallowed for an infringement, and there wasnt one. The Sunderland player kicked the ball, and it moved, therefore it was in play.
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Atwell's made a rod for his own back by allowing it.
As soon as he sees that Liverpool are playing on while the Sunderland players laugh at their presumptuousness he has plenty of time to blow his whistle and brought play back - and nobody would have even batted an eyelid, let alone be discussing it on ever forum and phone-in across the land.
Best of luck to him, he's going to need it if he's sticking to professional refereeing as a career.
Dave. He couldnt disallow it. Read my previous posts.
His job as a ref is to apply the Laws of the game, and in this case he did. A goal can only be disallowed for an infringement, and there wasnt one. The Sunderland player kicked the ball, and it moved, therefore it was in play.
I don't disagree.
But in the six seconds between noticing the Sunderland players jumping up and down at Liverpool playing on when they don't think they should be doing so and Torres squaring the ball to Kuyt he can stop play to say "you shouldn't be carrying on".
Technically he's not done anything wrong. But just because he's technically not done anything wrong isn't going to help his career one bit.
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Thats the problem tho Dave. As no infringement has happened, he cant stop play. He spoke with his A/R and then allowed the goal.
HAD he disallowed it, then he would have been in trouble with the assesor and the Premier League for not applying the Laws of the game. That would have done his career more harm.
The arguement is 'its not in the spirit of the game', like the Arsenal goal v Sheff Utd the other year.
That is no reason to disallow a goal.
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Thats the problem tho Dave. As no infringement has happened, he cant stop play. He spoke with his A/R and then allowed the goal.
HAD he disallowed it, then he would have been in trouble with the assesor and the Premier League for not applying the Laws of the game. That would have done his career more harm.
The arguement is 'its not in the spirit of the game', like the Arsenal goal v Sheff Utd the other year.
That is no reason to disallow a goal.
When I took my refereeing course about 7 years ago that very same goal came up. One man asked the instructor, one of Staffordshire County's top referees, what he would have done. He responded by telling us that he would have blown for an infringement and stop play before the goal. He said he would have given a foul throw and in this instance probably said the bell was moving when Turner played it. Nobody would care, it would be a minor incident and probably not even of been noted by the assesor.
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Thats the problem tho Dave. As no infringement has happened, he cant stop play. He spoke with his A/R and then allowed the goal.
HAD he disallowed it, then he would have been in trouble with the assesor and the Premier League for not applying the Laws of the game. That would have done his career more harm.
The arguement is 'its not in the spirit of the game', like the Arsenal goal v Sheff Utd the other year.
That is no reason to disallow a goal.
When I took my refereeing course about 7 years ago that very same goal came up. One man asked the instructor, one of Staffordshire County's top referees, what he would have done. He responded by telling us that he would have blown for an infringement and stop play before the goal. He said he would have given a foul throw and in this instance probably said the ball was moving when Turner played it. Basically, not put yourself in a situation where there will be chaos. Nobody would care, it would be a minor incident and probably not even of been noted by the assesor.
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All depends on when the ref had blew his whistle.
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Thats the problem tho Dave. As no infringement has happened, he cant stop play. He spoke with his A/R and then allowed the goal.
HAD he disallowed it, then he would have been in trouble with the assesor and the Premier League for not applying the Laws of the game. That would have done his career more harm.
The arguement is 'its not in the spirit of the game', like the Arsenal goal v Sheff Utd the other year.
That is no reason to disallow a goal.
I go along with the bad sportsmanship/passing the ball back to the goalie to take the free kick so no goal. But if you are running the literal reading of the rules route you will see that when the defender gets the ball to play the free kick the second time he touched the ball back a couple of feet then plays the backpass to the goalie. Those that are potificating about the rules may want to check but you can't take a free kick to yourself can you?? Also following the logic of the decision if a player wants to adjust the position of the ball when taking a goal kick, freekick pen etc he has to use his hands now otherwise he'll be deemed to have taken the kick as no heed is now seemed to be paid to the intention of the kicker.
Overall extremely bad sportsmanship from Torres, an incompetent referee.
Does Gerrard get told he has a free pass to twat people an Anfield every week?
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All depends on when the ref had blew his whistle.
But the ref doesn't have to blow his whistle to restart play, and I don't remember him doing so here.
hartman_1982 is right. The ref should have invented any old excuse to blow up and make it be retaken. That's what they taught us on my refereeing course...
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Sunderland took a quick free kick, but atwell blew up and brought back play, so it was obvious to the whole ground the goalkeeper was gonna take it.
Absolutly pathetic referring, common bloody sense, the FA have fast tracked this young referee and he truly arwful.
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The legal argument.......
Law 13 says "The ball is in play when it is kicked and moves." The referee must be satisfied it has been taken from the right place and no opposition player is within 10 yards.
The referee is correct, as far as this is concerned there is no further debate on the referees actions.
The moral/ethical argument......
If the Sunderland players intention is to move the ball back to allow the keeper to take the kick, you may wish to argue that Liverpool have been unsportsmanlike in their subsequent actions.
Morals? Ethics? Sportsmanship? In top flight football in 2010?
The Fans argument.......
I guess Liverpool fans will tend towards the legal argument while Sunderland fans will tend towards the ethical argument.
What about the rest of us looking from the outside?
Well that depends on what more important to you. An ex bluenose whinging potato head falling flat on his face, feeling agrieved yet again that the whole of football has it in for him. Or the sheer pleasure of seeing a bunch of scousers stumble from crisis to crisis as their once proud club hurtles towards mediocrity.
PS. Who believes in karma by the way? Beachballs anyone ?
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MOTD showed that the ref had turned his back on the restart and didnt have a clue what was happening, you can argue all you like about the technacalities of what happened but there was a deriliction of duty on the part of the ref wanker
He turned his back to get up with play where he expected the play to be once he had given the direction to to Sunderland to play on either by whistle or verbal. Nothing wrong with the fact that as the ball was kicked he had his back to it. If the ball had been launched into the penalty area and something had happened everyone would have criticised him for not being up with the play.
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All depends on when the ref had blew his whistle.
But the ref doesn't have to blow his whistle to restart play, and I don't remember him doing so here.
hartman_1982 is right. The ref should have invented any old excuse to blow up and make it be retaken. That's what they taught us on my refereeing course...
i disagree, the ref blew to signal the quick free kick had to be retaken. Play should not then commence until he blows his whistle again. The replay on MotD showed that the player kicked it for the goalie to take the free kick before he blew his whistle again. You can argue it was the linesman's mistake but there is no way that goal should stand on technical or ethical reasons.
Also how the hell didn't Gerrard get sent off for the elbow???
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the most shocking decision in that game was to give gerrard a yellow for a forearm smash into a sunderland players face....
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Although the Sunderland Player had obviously decided to play it further back for the keeper to take, even the keeper wasn't ready for it. He was still in the box, if he was on the way up to take it then it probably would have been more obvious what was going on and I doubt it would have happened.
But I do believe common sense has failed there from the ref and he responded to the Liverpools players actions. As someone mentioned, the ref never gives handball or foul throws when a player throws it to his colleague still on the pitch to take the throw in. In theory the ball has crossed the line into play.
Look when ManU did that cheeky corner two seasons ago. Rooney looked like he was going to take it and then Giggs went over to do it. Rooney rolls towards Giggs a foot or two and walks away to the pen area, Giggs then gets there and plays on as Rooney has put the ball into play. No one expected it as most players know that happens 99 times in a match. Unfortunately for them the Ref and Linesman didn't expect it and disallowed the resultant goal.
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the most shocking decision in that game was to give gerrard a yellow for a forearm smash into a sunderland players face....
Yes for that he should be admonished. Players have been sent off for just intending to smack someone. As a young referee his task is to be different from so called "top refs" who are nothing more than celeb player arse lickers.
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I disagree with the sportsmanship argument. To me "sportsmanship" doesn't come into it because what happened was not against the laws of the game.
The next thing I want to see stopped is this nonsense of putting the ball out of play for an injury and/or giving the ball back to the opposition.
If circumstances present you with an opportunity to take advantage of the oppositions misfortune, then I think a team should take it
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I disagree with the sportsmanship argument. To me "sportsmanship" doesn't come into it because what happened was not against the laws of the game.
The next thing I want to see stopped is this nonsense of putting the ball out of play for an injury and/or giving the ball back to the opposition.
If circumstances present you with an opportunity to take advantage of the oppositions misfortune, then I think a team should take it
There are thousands of things within the laws of the game but which are bad sportsmanship. i think you are over simplifying it. Part of the problem is, and I do not intend to be racist here but culturally in Spain and Italy there's an attitude that if you can be sneaky and get away with something this is a good thing. We have many non English players in our league now so its no suprise this attitude has embedded itself in our football.
As a balance English football has always had a more physical aspect which is why Gerrard can get away with what he can. Anywhere else its thatincident we'd be talking about.
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Why is no-one criticising Michael Turner? He'd been told to move the free-kick back ten yards after someone tried to take it early, and the ref was happy with where it was - did he not think the next touch could constitute the kick being taken? Why not?
Schoolboy defending that was punished appropriately.
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Why is no-one criticising Michael Turner? He'd been told to move the free-kick back ten yards after someone tried to take it early, and the ref was happy with where it was - did he not think the next touch could constitute the kick being taken? Why not?
Schoolboy defending that was punished appropriately.
I agree with this comment. It's not the ref's fault, it's the players. The ref had indicated where the kick was to be taken, and he then moved away from the ball. He didn't take his eyes off the player at all. When he saw the ball being kicked he ran back as soon as the ball was in play.
All this bollocks about unsporting conduct, or Torres being unsportsmanlike is shite. He did what any player would have done. The ball had been played and kicked. Which, to any clever player, means that the ball is in play.
Sunderland's Mike Turner is to blame. Not the ref. Not the linesman.
It was a stupid decision by the defender to kick it, especially after the ref had made such a point as to where it needs to be taken from. Moving it from that spot essentially means that the ball is in play.
Nuff said. Well played Liverpool.
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The ref clearly showed where he wanted the kick taken from. He was obviously happy with the location the ball was in as he was moving away to get into position anticipating the freekick would go up the field.
Its not Micheal Turners decsion to change the location of the freekick so what was he doing?
The goal was legal and I dont buy the bad sportsmanship angle It was just quick thinking by Torres and Kuyt. If your gonna go down that path the goal milner scored last season from the quick throw was poor sportsmanship.
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I thought Emile's header was fantastic! And let's not forget that great cross from Warnock. The manager should be proud of them. Well done!
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I thought Emile's header was fantastic! And let's not forget that great cross from Warnock. The manager should be proud of them. Well done!
Very good. Yes it was a Liverpool goal.
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Why is no-one criticising Michael Turner? He'd been told to move the free-kick back ten yards after someone tried to take it early, and the ref was happy with where it was - did he not think the next touch could constitute the kick being taken? Why not?
Schoolboy defending that was punished appropriately.
Yep he has no-one to blame but himself.
They were awarded a free kick.
He kicked it. That's that.
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I thought Emile's header was fantastic! And let's not forget that great cross from Warnock. The manager should be proud of them. Well done!
Very good. Yes it was a Liverpool goal.
Shouldn't Heskey have been shagging a 16 year old then punched a barman while Warnock was having his car knicked at the same time Ashley got the ball while the goalie was trying to take a goal kick for it to be a real Liverpool goal?
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Why is no-one criticising Michael Turner? He'd been told to move the free-kick back ten yards after someone tried to take it early, and the ref was happy with where it was - did he not think the next touch could constitute the kick being taken? Why not?
Schoolboy defending that was punished appropriately.
I agree with this comment. It's not the ref's fault, it's the players. The ref had indicated where the kick was to be taken, and he then moved away from the ball. He didn't take his eyes off the player at all. When he saw the ball being kicked he ran back as soon as the ball was in play.
All this bollocks about unsporting conduct, or Torres being unsportsmanlike is shite. He did what any player would have done. The ball had been played and kicked. Which, to any clever player, means that the ball is in play.
Sunderland's Mike Turner is to blame. Not the ref. Not the linesman.
It was a stupid decision by the defender to kick it, especially after the ref had made such a point as to where it needs to be taken from. Moving it from that spot essentially means that the ball is in play.
Nuff said. Well played Liverpool.
Regrettably, I have come round to agreeing with this point of view as I think it is technically correct, much as I loathe the bindippers
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This is a situation where those who know and understand the laws, will understand why it was a goal, and those who dont, dont understand why it was!
A goal can only be disallowed for an infringement of the Laws of the game. Once Turner kicked the ball backwards, wether that was his intention or not is irrelevent, under the Laws of the game, the ball is in play. No Liverpool then infringed the Laws, therefore the goal has to stand.
As other posters have stated, the fault lies solely with Turner.
There is no fault attache to Attwell, he did nothing wrong, and he was 100% correct!
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There's only one thing for it. Bring back Shoot magazine.
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It's karma for the beachball incident.
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Absolutely it was a perfectly good goal. Once the referee had pulled the quick free kick back and it was stationary the referee moved away indicating he was happy for the game to re-start. At no point is the referee obliged to blow for the game to start and very rarely do in these examples as its easier to let the game flow if the attacking side want to take a quick free kick to re-start the game.
Turner tried to hit it back to the keeper with his back heel and underhit it. You could see it in the way his leg went around his standing leg that he was off balance when striking the ball causing it to be underhit. By doing that it showed he was trying to hit it harder back to the keeper.
I think that in itself is proof enough that he wasn't simply rolling it back a few yards for the keeper to take the kick. When else have you seen a defender, or any player, risking tapping the ball over some yardage for someone else to take a free-kick, even if he had meant to roll it back to the keeper? Which I doubt.
Why would he kick it back to the keeper anyway? They had already tried a quick free-kick so anted to get on with the game and why not then leave it for the keeper to take from where it was considering the ref was happy with where the ball was, otherwise he would have blown and insisted the ball be moved back.
Whichever way you look at it Turner took a risk and it backfired. There was absolutely nothing wromg with the goal. Even if he had meant to knock it back he underhit it and thus play resumed. Liverpool took advantage whilst Sunderland dithered,
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A fair goal in my opinion and absolutely nothing to do with bad sportsmanship. They just took advantage of a stupid mistake. I actually think he took the free kick but was too casual and underhit it. He quickly realised his mistame and tried to claim he hadn't. Get that impression from his body language just prior to kicking it.
I hate Liverpool too!
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I completely disagree that it should have stood.
After a foul has been committed, play can resume without the whistle been blown as a quick free kick can be taken. Sunderland tried to do this, the ref felt it wasn't taken from the correct spot so blew again for the free kick to be taken again. Play can now not resume until he blows his whistle again. Turner kicked the ball back to the keeper before he blew his whistle again. Secondly, Turner kicked it from almost the exact same position as the original free kick; so if the ref blew for that reason the first time, he should not have allowed the kick to be taken from the near identical spot the second time around.
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From ex-ref Jeff Winter's website:
Getting back to 'that goal', ironically in law Atwell was correct. The ball was positioned in the correct place, despite what Bruce claims, and once Turner tapped it back it was in play, so the goal was valid. That is why the authorities have quickly come out and stated these facts.
I am sure though that behind closed doors some advice will be coming Atwell’s way. Firstly he turned his back on play as the game restarted, a complete no-no for refs. It was obvious that Turner was not intentionally taking the free kick, but with more experience and awareness Atwell could have handled it better.
Had he have been watching play, he could have assessed what was happening and blown instantly and suggested that he was still not happy with the placement of the ball. Now what I have said is wrong, wrong, wrong, but it the commonsense that an experienced ref would have used to prevent the controversy.
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According to the Beeb Atwell hasn’t been assigned a game this weekend so the law makers must have been unhappy with his decision or are they just protecting him from any potential flack, I’d go with the former.
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From ex-ref Jeff Winter's website:
Getting back to 'that goal', ironically in law Atwell was correct. The ball was positioned in the correct place, despite what Bruce claims, and once Turner tapped it back it was in play, so the goal was valid. That is why the authorities have quickly come out and stated these facts.
I am sure though that behind closed doors some advice will be coming Atwell’s way. Firstly he turned his back on play as the game restarted, a complete no-no for refs. It was obvious that Turner was not intentionally taking the free kick, but with more experience and awareness Atwell could have handled it better.
Had he have been watching play, he could have assessed what was happening and blown instantly and suggested that he was still not happy with the placement of the ball. Now what I have said is wrong, wrong, wrong, but it the commonsense that an experienced ref would have used to prevent the controversy.
Andy Gray spoke to some refs on Sunday apparently and the same advice was given. As soon as he allowed the play to continue and the ball was in the net then it was a goal and was correct in the letter of the law. But an experienced ref would have stopped it earlier with some made up excuse.
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How often do we see players tap the ball to someone else before a free kick is taken? Well, not anymore I'd say!
The best way to decide if this was fair or not is to imagine if he would have given it AGAINST Liverpool at Anfield. Yes, that's what I thought too!
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I completely disagree that it should have stood.
After a foul has been committed, play can resume without the whistle been blown as a quick free kick can be taken. Sunderland tried to do this, the ref felt it wasn't taken from the correct spot so blew again for the free kick to be taken again. Play can now not resume until he blows his whistle again. Turner kicked the ball back to the keeper before he blew his whistle again. Secondly, Turner kicked it from almost the exact same position as the original free kick; so if the ref blew for that reason the first time, he should not have allowed the kick to be taken from the near identical spot the second time around.
The ref doesn't have to blow again. Otherwise there would never be teh chance for quick free-kicks after the ref blows for the initial infringement.
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I completely disagree that it should have stood.
After a foul has been committed, play can resume without the whistle been blown as a quick free kick can be taken. Sunderland tried to do this, the ref felt it wasn't taken from the correct spot so blew again for the free kick to be taken again. Play can now not resume until he blows his whistle again. Turner kicked the ball back to the keeper before he blew his whistle again. Secondly, Turner kicked it from almost the exact same position as the original free kick; so if the ref blew for that reason the first time, he should not have allowed the kick to be taken from the near identical spot the second time around.
The ref doesn't have to blow again. Otherwise there would never be teh chance for quick free-kicks after the ref blows for the initial infringement.
I can see where Arsey is coming from. They tried to take the quick freekick but the ref blew a second time to call the free kick back. He is saying because he blew that second time as he wasn't ready, he then should have reblown to start when he was ready. But the only time that ever happens is when the wall is being set up and the ref says wait for the whistle. He didn't say it this time.
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The most salient point is the one made by Winters, that "it was obvious that Turner was not intentionally taking the free kick", and that common sense should have prevailed.
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I completely disagree that it should have stood.
After a foul has been committed, play can resume without the whistle been blown as a quick free kick can be taken. Sunderland tried to do this, the ref felt it wasn't taken from the correct spot so blew again for the free kick to be taken again. Play can now not resume until he blows his whistle again. Turner kicked the ball back to the keeper before he blew his whistle again. Secondly, Turner kicked it from almost the exact same position as the original free kick; so if the ref blew for that reason the first time, he should not have allowed the kick to be taken from the near identical spot the second time around.
The ref doesn't have to blow again. Otherwise there would never be teh chance for quick free-kicks after the ref blows for the initial infringement.
I can see where Arsey is coming from. They tried to take the quick freekick but the ref blew a second time to call the free kick back. He is saying because he blew that second time as he wasn't ready, he then should have reblown to start when he was ready. But the only time that ever happens is when the wall is being set up and the ref says wait for the whistle. He didn't say it this time.
The ref only has to give a signal, that can be the whistle, or just using his arm/shouting play etc. In defensive free kicks, generally there is no whistle as they just want to get the game moving, and why the nearer the goal-line they tend no to be too pedantic on the position of the ball..Nearer the halfway line, when they can launch it into the opposing penalty area, the ref will be more fussy on the ball position. On Sat the original free kick was taken quickly from near the halfway line, then the ref took it back to outside the centre circle, as he moved away, he was happy for it to be taken from that place. Turner would have known that. The blame should really be with the player, this is another case of players not understanding/knowing the Laws. Its all well these ex refs saying what Atwell should have done, but they all mucked up at times. That was an unuasual incident Sat, that took the ref by surprise, and he did the correct thing in law.
As for Winters comments, i know an ex football league A/R who ran the line to him, flagged for a blatent pen on his side, only for Winter to wave him down and play on!!
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Sorry all but I don't know how to do the quote thing but regarding Jeff Winters' website quote and others on this issue, please see my post on Saturday, but hey, what do I know?
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Just thought I'd share this fantastic pic:
(http://i.imgur.com/aI512.jpg)
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WTF? Have they both been given Evil villain parts in some childrens panto?
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Are they auditioning for a remake of Gremlins?
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Sorry all but I don't know how to do the quote thing but regarding Jeff Winters' website quote and others on this issue, please see my post on Saturday, but hey, what do I know?
Why are you sorry?
And what do you know?
And how do you know what you know?
And hey, what the hey.
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We can bang on about rules and laws until the cows come home. Any fool can see that the defender was leaving the ball for the goalkeeper to take the free kick, apart from the fool who was in charge of the game of course. He wasn't even watching. Fine, Liverpool took full advantage and took the ball forward in an unsportsmanlike manner, even though the Sunderland players stood like statues in amazement.
That referee has made a rod for his own back and has set a precedent which will make the officials lives just that bit more difficult. Still, rules are rules eh.
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We can bang on about rules and laws until the cows come home. Any fool can see that the defender was leaving the ball for the goalkeeper to take the free kick, apart from the fool who was in charge of the game of course. He wasn't even watching. Fine, Liverpool took full advantage and took the ball forward in an unsportsmanlike manner, even though the Sunderland players stood like statues in amazement.
That referee has made a rod for his own back and has set a precedent which will make the officials lives just that bit more difficult. Still, rules are rules eh.
Only he didnt leave it, he kicked it backwards, and therein lies the problem. Had he left it where it was, it wouldnt have been a problem. The ball was where the ref wanted it, thats why he ran off....i dont think ive ever seen a team take the ball back unless instructed to do so, and even then, its inch by inch....But once Turner kicks it from the position its in, the ball is then in play, whatever his intentions where.
I disagree about making refs lives more difficult, as players will now be more aware, and i doubt it will happen again.
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How often do we see players tap the ball to someone else before a free kick is taken? Well, not anymore I'd say!
Villa did it more than once against Wolves.
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According to the Beeb Atwell hasn’t been assigned a game this weekend so the law makers must have been unhappy with his decision or are they just protecting him from any potential flack, I’d go with the former.
They dont do games every week, on the radio yesterday they said he had already been appointed 4th official at our game at Spurs.
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I've only just seen it and it confirms really what an utter and complete fuckwit this Atwell bloke is, idiotic moments seem to follow him around, just hope he isn't reffing the Killinghall Nomads Under 8's this weekend. If he'd have allowed play to continue when Turner took it quickly there wouldn't have been any debate. Seems he doesn't ever apply the common sense rule.
After attending a ref's course a couple of weeks ago I have no respect whatsoever for people who choose to take it up as a profession, they must be the most anal people in the world, especially if they also happen to be fans of Gary Numan.
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In fairness to him he told them to retake the kick and the ball was in the right place the 2nd time- harsh maybe but I think turner has to take the blame as the ball was in the right place and he touched it back-brave decision but a fair goal!
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I've only just seen it and it confirms really what an utter and complete fuckwit this Atwell bloke is, idiotic moments seem to follow him around, just hope he isn't reffing the Killinghall Nomads Under 8's this weekend. If he'd have allowed play to continue when Turner took it quickly there wouldn't have been any debate. Seems he doesn't ever apply the common sense rule.
After attending a ref's course a couple of weeks ago I have no respect whatsoever for people who choose to take it up as a profession, they must be the most anal people in the world, especially if they also happen to be fans of Gary Numan.
WTF!!!!!
Why attend the course then, and how can you say that when you havent met or know these people.
People take up refereeing because they want to be involved in football, and give something to the game.
Due to the level i was involved in, i have met many ex prem league officials/football league officials, and some are amongst the best blokes you could wish to meet, who certainly wouldnt stoop to such low levels by making crass insulting statements like the above comments.
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After attending a ref's course a couple of weeks ago I have no respect whatsoever for people who choose to take it up as a profession, they must be the most anal people in the world, especially if they also happen to be fans of Gary Numan.
I'm sorry but that's plain wrong - listening to Gary Numan indicates you are emotionally aloof and have a cold attention for detail. Surely that's just what you need in a referee?
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We can bang on about rules and laws until the cows come home. Any fool can see that the defender was leaving the ball for the goalkeeper to take the free kick, apart from the fool who was in charge of the game of course. He wasn't even watching. Fine, Liverpool took full advantage and took the ball forward in an unsportsmanlike manner, even though the Sunderland players stood like statues in amazement.
That referee has made a rod for his own back and has set a precedent which will make the officials lives just that bit more difficult. Still, rules are rules eh.
Only he didnt leave it, he kicked it backwards, and therein lies the problem. Had he left it where it was, it wouldnt have been a problem. The ball was where the ref wanted it, thats why he ran off....i dont think ive ever seen a team take the ball back unless instructed to do so, and even then, its inch by inch....But once Turner kicks it from the position its in, the ball is then in play, whatever his intentions where.
I disagree about making refs lives more difficult, as players will now be more aware, and i doubt it will happen again.
As I said on Saturday, as Winter says in that post above and pretty much every referee who has commented in the media has said, although in terms of the laws Atwell was correct - there was absolutely nothing stopping him from blowing his whistle, having it retaken and avoiding this whole ridiculous palaver.
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The referee couldn't win on this one. I heard it said on MOTD2 that everybody in the stadium knew he was not taking the free-kick, and yet the Liverpool players thought he'd took it, and personally, I think the player knew he'd had took it. He just underkicked it.
There would have been a lot of noise about the referee if he had disallowed, what looked to Liverpool players and fans, a definite goal.
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I love Pleasure Principle and Replicas.. Awesome albums...
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Personally, I think the player knew he'd had took it. He just underkicked it.
There would have been a lot of noise about the referee if he had disallowed, what looked to Liverpool players and fans, a definite goal.
A player who had taken the free kick and underkicked it wouldn't have then started strolling upfield while Torres sprinted past him and then (rather than turning round and running after him) shrugs his shoulders and looks confused at the referee.
And he didn't have to disallow the goal. When it became obvious that something silly had happened he just needs to blow the whistle and get it retaken before Torres is even at the edge of the penalty area. I've no doubt that if he had been paying attention and had been looking at the ball when it all happened, it's exactly what he would have done.
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I love Pleasure Principle and Replicas.. Awesome albums...
They certainly are.
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WTF!!!!!
Why attend the course then, and how can you say that when you havent met or know these people.
I was pressured into it and I honestly can't see why anybody would wish to take it up as a PROFESSION unless they like the bit where you are told you are God on the football pitch.
I sat in a room for 2 and a half hours having my enthusiasm for junior football slowly drained out of me.
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Personally, I think the player knew he'd had took it. He just underkicked it.
There would have been a lot of noise about the referee if he had disallowed, what looked to Liverpool players and fans, a definite goal.
A player who had taken the free kick and underkicked it wouldn't have then started strolling upfield while Torres sprinted past him and then (rather than turning round and running after him) shrugs his shoulders and looks confused at the referee.
And he didn't have to disallow the goal. When it became obvious that something silly had happened he just needs to blow the whistle and get it retaken before Torres is even at the edge of the penalty area. I've no doubt that if he had been paying attention and had been looking at the ball when it all happened, it's exactly what he would have done.
All in all, its just an unusual situation.
Its ok people in the media saying 'id do this/that or the other' in the heat of the game thats easier said then done, and ex refs say he should have run backwards etc. We are also told to make use of dead ball time and to get into position, which is why Attwell sprinted like he did, to get into position for the game to restart quicker. He couldnt have expected Turner to do what he did. I cant recall in over 20yrs involved in the game, a team having a free kick in that position, yet the centre half knocks it back to the keeper!! Normally they'd leave the ball alone for the keeper, or try to pinch a few feet when the ref wasnt looking (tho the A/R should be checking).
But once Turner did what he did, he put the officials in a lose/lose situation, as whatever they did, they were going to get criticised.
One thing is for certain, it will be a long time before we see a similar incident!
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After attending a ref's course a couple of weeks ago I have no respect whatsoever for people who choose to take it up as a profession, they must be the most anal people in the world, especially if they also happen to be fans of Gary Numan.
I'm sorry but that's plain wrong - listening to Gary Numan indicates you are emotionally aloof and have a cold attention for detail. Surely that's just what you need in a referee?
Good point! A tip for any people who use ebay, never, ever sell anything relating to Gary Numan, Tubeway Army, hair weaves etc, trust me it's just not worth the hassle.
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WTF!!!!!
Why attend the course then, and how can you say that when you havent met or know these people.
I was pressured into it and I honestly can't see why anybody would wish to take it up as a PROFESSION unless they like the bit where you are told you are God on the football pitch.
I sat in a room for 2 and a half hours having my enthusiasm for junior football slowly drained out of me.
Chris, it only becomes a profession at Pl level, the others all have full time jobs.
If anyone on the course said you were god out there, id disagree. You have to be respected out there, but that respect has to be earned, by how you conduct yourself. Respect is a 2way thing.
Anyone who goes out there with the attitude 'im in charge/im god' shouldnt be reffing in my opinion.
But as a ref, if you go on to the F.O.P with the right attitude, get your key decisions correct, and manage players, you will be respected (by most).
If you do end up doing games, just enjoy them, trust me, if you have a game between 2 teams who want to play football, and you let them, you will be amazed at how much you enjoy it. Also the respect you will get back from them.
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My cousin's new Facebook picture (a very old one)makes him look incredibly like Gary Numan. I am convinced he's going to get a solicitor's letter for infringement of image rights
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Chris, it only becomes a profession at Pl level, the others all have full time jobs.
If anyone on the course said you were god out there, id disagree.
Perhaps i'm being a little unfair, to ref's, I stand by what I said about 'Numanoids'.
The Ref taking the course actually said the God thing and didn't seem capable of differentiating full size matches involving pro's and Under 8's football and enjoyed telling us far too many tedious stories involving his time as a referee. I refereed a game last weekend and my 7 year old son did actually tell me during the game I was a rubbish ref, his team were 4 down at the time and I had just given a penalty to the opposition.
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I was pressured into it and I honestly can't see why anybody would wish to take it up as a PROFESSION unless they like the bit where you are told you are God on the football pitch.
I sat in a room for 2 and a half hours having my enthusiasm for junior football slowly drained out of me.
It's a good job not everyone thinks like this or there wouldn't be any junior football.
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I was pressured into it and I honestly can't see why anybody would wish to take it up as a PROFESSION unless they like the bit where you are told you are God on the football pitch.
I sat in a room for 2 and a half hours having my enthusiasm for junior football slowly drained out of me.
It's a good job not everyone thinks like this or there wouldn't be any junior football.
Ahem. I do help out with my son's team and referee matches from time to tme, I have no wish to do it PROFESSIONALLY AND DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE DO. I can't make myself any clearer so please don't take the moral high ground with me unless you spend every one of your weekends refereeing junior football matches.
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Ahem. I do help out with my son's team and referee matches from time to tme, I have no wish to do it PROFESSIONALLY AND DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE DO. I can't make myself any clearer so please don't take the moral high ground with me unless you spend every one of your weekends refereeing junior football matches.
Is there a rule for the GK deliberately rubbing the ball in dog poo and then kicking it at the opposition players head?
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I was pressured into it and I honestly can't see why anybody would wish to take it up as a PROFESSION unless they like the bit where you are told you are God on the football pitch.
I sat in a room for 2 and a half hours having my enthusiasm for junior football slowly drained out of me.
It's a good job not everyone thinks like this or there wouldn't be any junior football.
Ahem. I do help out with my son's team and referee matches from time to tme, I have no wish to do it PROFESSIONALLY AND DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE DO. I can't make myself any clearer so please don't take the moral high ground with me unless you spend every one of your weekends refereeing junior football matches.
No moral high ground here, but you said you did one course and hated it, if everyone did that there would be no referees and hence no junior football.
I didn't go down the refereeing route because I continued to play until my knees dropped off.
Not many referees take it up as a profession, and only those who have been right through the system from the lowest level are given the chance, so basically I doubt anyone CHOOSES to be a referee as a PROFESSION because they would have to serve a 15 (at least) year apprenticeship! They just get very good at their chosen hobby really.
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But I did the course, hated it but still find myself reffing as do the 4 others who went with me and also felt the same way.
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I was pressured into it and I honestly can't see why anybody would wish to take it up as a PROFESSION unless they like the bit where you are told you are God on the football pitch.
I sat in a room for 2 and a half hours having my enthusiasm for junior football slowly drained out of me.
It's a good job not everyone thinks like this or there wouldn't be any junior football.
Ahem. I do help out with my son's team and referee matches from time to tme, I have no wish to do it PROFESSIONALLY AND DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE DO. I can't make myself any clearer so please don't take the moral high ground with me unless you spend every one of your weekends refereeing junior football matches.
No moral high ground here, but you said you did one course and hated it, if everyone did that there would be no referees and hence no junior football.
I didn't go down the refereeing route because I continued to play until my knees dropped off.
Not many referees take it up as a profession, and only those who have been right through the system from the lowest level are given the chance, so basically I doubt anyone CHOOSES to be a referee as a PROFESSION because they would have to serve a 15 (at least) year apprenticeship! They just get very good at their chosen hobby really.
Stuart Attwell refereed his first professional match in 2007/8. He was given one of the play-off finals that season and started refereeing PL the following season. He hasn't served a 15 year apprenticeship.
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I was pressured into it and I honestly can't see why anybody would wish to take it up as a PROFESSION unless they like the bit where you are told you are God on the football pitch.
I sat in a room for 2 and a half hours having my enthusiasm for junior football slowly drained out of me.
It's a good job not everyone thinks like this or there wouldn't be any junior football.
Ahem. I do help out with my son's team and referee matches from time to tme, I have no wish to do it PROFESSIONALLY AND DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE DO. I can't make myself any clearer so please don't take the moral high ground with me unless you spend every one of your weekends refereeing junior football matches.
No moral high ground here, but you said you did one course and hated it, if everyone did that there would be no referees and hence no junior football.
I didn't go down the refereeing route because I continued to play until my knees dropped off.
Not many referees take it up as a profession, and only those who have been right through the system from the lowest level are given the chance, so basically I doubt anyone CHOOSES to be a referee as a PROFESSION because they would have to serve a 15 (at least) year apprenticeship! They just get very good at their chosen hobby really.
Stuart Attwell refereed his first professional match in 2007/8. He was given one of the play-off finals that season and started refereeing PL the following season. He hasn't served a 15 year apprenticeship.
I don't know if he's served a 15 year apprenticeship - I doubt it, isn't he about 30?
However, I would point out that by the time you're refereeing professional games of any level, aren't you already a fair way up the ladder?
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Stuart Attwell has made some mistakes but so does everyone in their everyday job. Leave him alone to get on and improve. I applaud the PL and FA for supporting him.
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Stuart Attwell has made some mistakes but so does everyone in their everyday job. Leave him alone to get on and improve. I applaud the PL and FA for supporting him.
I just with they supported him to improve in a lower league. There is something very odd about his rise. He was put on the FIFA international list after only 4 PL matches and less than 40 league games in total.
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Stuart Attwell has made some mistakes but so does everyone in their everyday job. Leave him alone to get on and improve. I applaud the PL and FA for supporting him.
Will you be saying that if he awards a goal like the one last week against us?
*wink*
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Stuart Attwell has made some mistakes but so does everyone in their everyday job. Leave him alone to get on and improve. I applaud the PL and FA for supporting him.
Will you be saying that if he awards a goal like the one last week against us?
*wink*
He can improve but NIMFBY!
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Stuart Attwell refereed his first professional match in 2007/8. He was given one of the play-off finals that season and started refereeing PL the following season. He hasn't served a 15 year apprenticeship.
He was around in The Conference and slightly lower non-league levels in 2002, I have a programme from Tamworth v Chelmsford in 2002 and he's the ref, (sorry to be an anorak but I was tidying up my collection yesterday and noticed his name!), it says in the programme that he had refereed Conference matches.
So maybe not 15 years but he's come up through the ranks.
He does seem to have been fast-tracked though, maybe it is a case of him knowing all the laws of the game but not having quite enough experience to apply common sense all the time?
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Yes, we all know about the ghost goal and all of the other bad decisions that every referee makes and which TV will point out time and again whilst not bothering to ever point out all the good decisions or highlighting the mistakes made by players to anywhere near the same extent.
Atwell isn't the best ref, but he's a fucking sight better than the numpties we see down Tamworth, and I don't slag them off after games either (can't say the same during of course!) because I know they are a damn sight better then those reffing Midland Alliance games, who in turn are better than those in the Birmingham AFA, etc. etc.
The only way to remove refereeing mistakes from the game is to embrace video technology wholesale, want to go down that route?
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Stuart Attwell refereed his first professional match in 2007/8. He was given one of the play-off finals that season and started refereeing PL the following season. He hasn't served a 15 year apprenticeship.
He was around in The Conference and slightly lower non-league levels in 2002, I have a programme from Tamworth v Chelmsford in 2002 and he's the ref, (sorry to be an anorak but I was tidying up my collection yesterday and noticed his name!), it says in the programme that he had refereed Conference matches.
So maybe not 15 years but he's come up through the ranks.
He does seem to have been fast-tracked though, maybe it is a case of him knowing all the laws of the game but not having quite enough experience to apply common sense all the time?
All refs start off doing the local parks games, then they progress up the ladder. First its as an A/R on local supply league, then when promoted to level 5, they can take the level 4 fitness test, which allows them to be level 4.
Level 4 ref local supply league & A/R on the contrib league( Conf south/nth, ryman, southern, northern etc)
Then if marks at supply league level are gd enough, promoted to level 3. these marks are a combination of club and assesor marks. Both must be in the top bracket. level 3 is dependant on passing a stricter fitness test.
Level 3 ref contrib league and run the line on the panel (conf national, prem reserve, football comabination)
Their marks at level 2 will then get them promoted to football league line, and if good enough level 2 which is panel middle.
Then if good enough, promoted to football league middle, then if gd enough at FL finally promoted to prem middle (elite list).
To get that far, requires a lot of dedication, onceat level 4 you are dealing with semi-pro football.
I know guys who are football league line, who have to train/ do a warm down on a sunday etc. They have heart monitors and have to send the info to the FL to show they are training properly.
To get to Prem middle, you are looking at working your way up the different leagues, which is prob about 8/10 yrs.
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Stuart Attwell refereed his first professional match in 2007/8. He was given one of the play-off finals that season and started refereeing PL the following season. He hasn't served a 15 year apprenticeship.
He was around in The Conference and slightly lower non-league levels in 2002, I have a programme from Tamworth v Chelmsford in 2002 and he's the ref, (sorry to be an anorak but I was tidying up my collection yesterday and noticed his name!), it says in the programme that he had refereed Conference matches.
So maybe not 15 years but he's come up through the ranks.
He does seem to have been fast-tracked though, maybe it is a case of him knowing all the laws of the game but not having quite enough experience to apply common sense all the time?
All refs start off doing the local parks games, then they progress up the ladder. First its as an A/R on local supply league, then when promoted to level 5, they can take the level 4 fitness test, which allows them to be level 4.
Level 4 ref local supply league & A/R on the contrib league( Conf south/nth, ryman, southern, northern etc)
Then if marks at supply league level are gd enough, promoted to level 3. these marks are a combination of club and assesor marks. Both must be in the top bracket. level 3 is dependant on passing a stricter fitness test.
Level 3 ref contrib league and run the line on the panel (conf national, prem reserve, football comabination)
Their marks at level 2 will then get them promoted to football league line, and if good enough level 2 which is panel middle.
Then if good enough, promoted to football league middle, then if gd enough at FL finally promoted to prem middle (elite list).
To get that far, requires a lot of dedication, onceat level 4 you are dealing with semi-pro football.
I know guys who are football league line, who have to train/ do a warm down on a sunday etc. They have heart monitors and have to send the info to the FL to show they are training properly.
To get to Prem middle, you are looking at working your way up the different leagues, which is prob about 8/10 yrs.
So how did Stuart Attwell go from never having ref'd a league game to the FIFA international list in 12 months and less than 40 games?
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Yes, we all know about the ghost goal and all of the other bad decisions that every referee makes and which TV will point out time and again whilst not bothering to ever point out all the good decisions or highlighting the mistakes made by players to anywhere near the same extent.
Yes, TV do highlight the mistakes. But that was an atrocious one from both the linesman and ref which if most people had made a mistake like that within their profession would have cost jobs. The linesman totally forgot who was the attacking and defending team and saw the ball cross the line, claims made by players and gives a goal. At least you can excuse him on the perspective angle as he might have thought it happened within the goal. The ref could obviously see from his angle that there was no point within the move the ball went in between the sticks. Yet instead of discussing it with his linesman ( like the phantom penalty us v Hull or even the Liverpool goal), he gave the goal.
He might know the rules of the game but he just does not seem to have the common-sense that most refs get with experience due to him being fast tracked up the league. Yes fans always gripe at referees, that is part of football but when both managers in the match have ago then you can guess the ref had a poor game. This has happened at least four times with Atwell including abroad as well.
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It's fairly safe to say that there is more chance of me buying the next Ufucking2 album than me being 'fast tracked' beyond Under 8's football.
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Liverpool is flirting with relegation!
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Stuart Attwell refereed his first professional match in 2007/8. He was given one of the play-off finals that season and started refereeing PL the following season. He hasn't served a 15 year apprenticeship.
He was around in The Conference and slightly lower non-league levels in 2002, I have a programme from Tamworth v Chelmsford in 2002 and he's the ref, (sorry to be an anorak but I was tidying up my collection yesterday and noticed his name!), it says in the programme that he had refereed Conference matches.
So maybe not 15 years but he's come up through the ranks.
He does seem to have been fast-tracked though, maybe it is a case of him knowing all the laws of the game but not having quite enough experience to apply common sense all the time?
All refs start off doing the local parks games, then they progress up the ladder. First its as an A/R on local supply league, then when promoted to level 5, they can take the level 4 fitness test, which allows them to be level 4.
Level 4 ref local supply league & A/R on the contrib league( Conf south/nth, ryman, southern, northern etc)
Then if marks at supply league level are gd enough, promoted to level 3. these marks are a combination of club and assesor marks. Both must be in the top bracket. level 3 is dependant on passing a stricter fitness test.
Level 3 ref contrib league and run the line on the panel (conf national, prem reserve, football comabination)
Their marks at level 2 will then get them promoted to football league line, and if good enough level 2 which is panel middle.
Then if good enough, promoted to football league middle, then if gd enough at FL finally promoted to prem middle (elite list).
To get that far, requires a lot of dedication, onceat level 4 you are dealing with semi-pro football.
I know guys who are football league line, who have to train/ do a warm down on a sunday etc. They have heart monitors and have to send the info to the FL to show they are training properly.
To get to Prem middle, you are looking at working your way up the different leagues, which is prob about 8/10 yrs.
So how did Stuart Attwell go from never having ref'd a league game to the FIFA international list in 12 months and less than 40 games?
Fast tracked.
Ref World (http://www.refworld.com/referee/177/0/stuart-attwell)