Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: FSF on September 21, 2010, 12:02:09 PM
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Interesting findings about fans' views on gays in the game:
http://www.fsf.org.uk/news/fans-dispel-homophobic-stereotype.php
Is the game ready for players to come out?
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I don't care, but for every opened minded fan there's going to be a section of idiots who'll revel in the chance to chant the offensive songs and hurl the abuse, as long as there's a chance of that then no player in their right mind will come out.
Imagine having to get it from the opposition as well as you go up for a corner and you marker starts giving it the mouth about close proximity to other men with your arm round them, they would be some Cantona kung fu connotations to that I'd imagine. Most footballers being well, not the most intellectually gifted, I'd also get the impending sense of a team rift, right old Teenage boy stuff like when they go to the shower everyone else jumps out/I'm not sitting next to him and all that.
The only way a gay player could be accepted if at all with opposition teams/fans would be do the absolute business and give 110% week in week out with MOTM displays every time, sadly no one player in the history of the game has ever been that over a career spanning 15 years.
Are there gay footballers - yes. Will any of them come out in the next 10 years - probably not.
How are things going for that Welsh Rugby player who did a runner on his wife and kid and came out? Rugby fans tend to be a politer breed though.
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It will take a very brave footballer to be the first one to "come out" as being gay. Which is a shame really.
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Obviously, a player shouldn't have to hide his sexuality in this day and age, but you only have to look at the stick Matthew Upson gets (and he's not even gay) to see that for the moment, a player would be better off keeping schtuum.
What player would want his life made a misery at every away game he plays?
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Id imagine most players would think not during my playing days but maybe when I hang up my boots.
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It's a sad world we live in when it's not accpetable for someone to be gay.
Racism was eventually eradicated (as far as I can see in England anyway), so it'd be nice to think homophobia will go the same way.
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If players do "come out" would clubs need separate changing rooms for gay and non gay players?
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If players do "come out" would clubs need separate changing rooms for gay and non gay players?
Do non-white players have seperate changing rooms?
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No but non white players wouldn't try to bum you all the time :/
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It's a sad world we live in when it's not accpetable for someone to be gay.
Racism was eventually eradicated (as far as I can see in England anyway), so it'd be nice to think homophobia will go the same way.
The number of people who turned out to see the Pope suggests that it won't any time soon
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If players do "come out" would clubs need separate changing rooms for gay and non gay players?
What about bisexuals? That's three changing rooms right there.
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No but non white players wouldn't try to bum you all the time :/
Hmmm...I can't tell if this is tongue in cheek or not.
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Hmmm...I can't tell if this is tongue in cheek or not.
Was my initial reaction but then formed the opinion that he couldn't possibly be serious.
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If players do "come out" would clubs need separate changing rooms for gay and non gay players?
I was going to say that perhaps it will change over the next 10 years the way much of racism has been eradicated, but with comments like the above I will say 20 years.
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No but non white players wouldn't try to bum you all the time :/
Hmmm...I can't tell if this is tongue in cheek or not.
I can't tell if that's a rimming joke or not.
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On a more serious note, I don’t think homophobia in football is in anyway comparable with the treatment of black players in the 70’s and 80’s. There are no homophobic versions of Goodison Park for example. We hear maybe one, two chants a season and directed towards one player. While this stick is only coming his way because he used to play for SHA, if he had remained at Arsenal before going to West Ham, then nobody would bat an eyelid at the man’s sexuality.
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There are no homophobic versions of Goodison Park for example.
As, to the best of my knowledge, there are no openly gay players, how do we know this?
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I think most people are pretty tolerant these days but even on a fairly enlightened website like this one casual homophobia is not uncommon. I think that’s because to most of us the thought of having sex with another man is just so odd.
So any gay player coming out will have to be prepared for a lot of childish and puerile comments but I don't think he'll experience much outright hostility.
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I'd be interested to know what Cyrille Regis's advice to a gay footballer would be.
'Stay in the closet son - you're safer there' or 'grow a pair'.
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(http://www.listown.com/images/group/201004/Gary-Neville-Paul-Scholes-20100417205544.jpg)
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/158505/PAUL-SCHOLES-GARY-NEVILLE-KISS-GAY-ESPN.jpg)
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There are no homophobic versions of Goodison Park for example.
As, to the best of my knowledge, there are no openly gay players, how do we know this?
How do you compare the realty of an incredibly racist and hostile crowd, such as you’d get at Goodison with the “Everton are white, Everton are white" chants and attempt to draw parallels with a fear that something similar might develop at grounds if a player should be openly gay? You're confusing fact and speculation.
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If players do "come out" would clubs need separate changing rooms for gay and non gay players?
What about bisexuals? That's three changing rooms right there.
What about trisexuals, those demented souls who will try anything, and are up for anything and also probably up everything given half a chance?
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Poor old Justin Fashanu - gay and black - he'll be getting changed on the back of the coach
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It's a sad world we live in when it's not accpetable for someone to be gay.
Racism was eventually eradicated (as far as I can see in England anyway), so it'd be nice to think homophobia will go the same way.
The number of people who turned out to see the Pope suggests that it won't any time soon
I didn't think it was that many to be honest. Didn't Jedi score higher than Catholic in the last cencus?
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Homosexuality in football is comparable to naming all the players that smoke or wear glasses - it would be improbable to think that there are none in the professional game, even just in Britain. The only way it will ever be bought into the open is if two or more players made a pact to do it at the same time. Just look at politics - Jeremy Thorpe's reputation was destroyed as leader of the Liberals due to his isolation in people finding out he was gay. Somebody else mentioned Justin Fashanu, which is a similar kind of thing. But usually you find politicians, pop stars, film stars etc all coming out within days and weeks of one another. Football, being a male-dominated culture, will only find it 'okay' if a group comes along as says so.
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There are no homophobic versions of Goodison Park for example.
As, to the best of my knowledge, there are no openly gay players, how do we know this?
How do you compare the realty of an incredibly racist and hostile crowd, such as you’d get at Goodison with the “Everton are white, Everton are white" chants and attempt to draw parallels with a fear that something similar might develop at grounds if a player should be openly gay? You're confusing fact and speculation.
Could you have another go? I don't understand what you are saying.
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Homosexuality in football is comparable to naming all the players that smoke or wear glasses - it would be improbable to think that there are none in the professional game, even just in Britain. The only way it will ever be bought into the open is if two or more players made a pact to do it at the same time. Just look at politics - Jeremy Thorpe's reputation was destroyed as leader of the Liberals due to his isolation in people finding out he was gay. Somebody else mentioned Justin Fashanu, which is a similar kind of thing. But usually you find politicians, pop stars, film stars etc all coming out within days and weeks of one another. Football, being a male-dominated culture, will only find it 'okay' if a group comes along as says so.
Its a bit surprising that the more militant groups, I'm thinking Tatchells lot, haven't taken the matter into their own hands and exposed, if thats the right word, a player or two.
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If players do "come out" would clubs need separate changing rooms for gay and non gay players?
I was going to say that perhaps it will change over the next 10 years the way much of racism has been eradicated, but with comments like the above I will say 20 years.
My comment is not homophobic...3 of my best friends are gay... and I have discussed this issue with them. No it's about the basics ...think about it why do we have separate changing rooms for males and females?
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If players do "come out" would clubs need separate changing rooms for gay and non gay players?
I was going to say that perhaps it will change over the next 10 years the way much of racism has been eradicated, but with comments like the above I will say 20 years.
My comment is not homophobic...3 of my best friends are gay... and I have discussed this issue with them. No it's about the basics ...think about it why do we have separate changing rooms for males and females?
Yeah but you don't have separate changing rooms for straight and gay people do you?
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Homosexuality in football is comparable to naming all the players that smoke or wear glasses - it would be improbable to think that there are none in the professional game, even just in Britain. The only way it will ever be bought into the open is if two or more players made a pact to do it at the same time. Just look at politics - Jeremy Thorpe's reputation was destroyed as leader of the Liberals due to his isolation in people finding out he was gay. Somebody else mentioned Justin Fashanu, which is a similar kind of thing. But usually you find politicians, pop stars, film stars etc all coming out within days and weeks of one another. Football, being a male-dominated culture, will only find it 'okay' if a group comes along as says so.
Its a bit surprising that the more militant groups, I'm thinking Tatchells lot, haven't taken the matter into their own hands and exposed, if thats the right word, a player or two.
You can see how endemic the culture of fear is surrounding the issue by the amount of ex-footballers in the world that have come out since retirement. Fashanu aside, I can't think of a single one.
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Either that or they dont exist?
Perhaps they were so fearful that they drifted away from the game at an early age?
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There are no homophobic versions of Goodison Park for example.
As, to the best of my knowledge, there are no openly gay players, how do we know this?
How do you compare the realty of an incredibly racist and hostile crowd, such as you’d get at Goodison with the “Everton are white, Everton are white" chants and attempt to draw parallels with a fear that something similar might develop at grounds if a player should be openly gay? You're confusing fact and speculation.
Could you have another go? I don't understand what you are saying.
u dnt knw how da fanz wud react. u iz gesin. tings av mvd on since da racist 80ees. it wud nt be lke that with a noOb gay player
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We are both guessing as there are no precedents.
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PeterWithe
Yeah but you don't have separate changing rooms for straight and gay people do you?
No you don't however since we the human race became "civilised" we have felt the need to separate ourselves based on sexuality. Males and Females have to be separated in various stages depending on what part of the world and your religion. The most basic separation applied by everyone across the world is changing rooms and toilets. Why is that? Is it privacy and human beings, especially males, are not able to control themselves and therefore the sight of naked female form will lead them to behave badly. If that is the case than sexuality is the driver.
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There are no precedents for an openly gay player, but I look around at society and the sort of people who attend football now as opposed to 20 years ago and I think I can be confident in predicting that should a player ever wish to tell the world he’s gay, that the reaction would not be as bad as it was with black players in the past.
Upson gets stick because he’s a Nose, not because he’s gay- which he isn’t anyway.
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If players do "come out" would clubs need separate changing rooms for gay and non gay players?
I was going to say that perhaps it will change over the next 10 years the way much of racism has been eradicated, but with comments like the above I will say 20 years.
My comment is not homophobic...3 of my best friends are gay... and I have discussed this issue with them. No it's about the basics ...think about it why do we have separate changing rooms for males and females?
Are you for real? I've never met you but I bet you're quite young. What a stupid comment to make. Think about it. With comments like that, it's pretty clear you are not gay, so, based on your statement, you fancy every female on the planet. That's your logic. And it's fucking stupid. As you let more out about yourself, I think I could gurantee that a lot of females would find you a bit repulsive, let alone what gay people would think of you. In other words, don't flatter youself to think that all gay people would fancy you, all the women certainly don't.
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If players do "come out" would clubs need separate changing rooms for gay and non gay players?
I was going to say that perhaps it will change over the next 10 years the way much of racism has been eradicated, but with comments like the above I will say 20 years.
My comment is not homophobic...3 of my best friends are gay... and I have discussed this issue with them. No it's about the basics ...think about it why do we have separate changing rooms for males and females?
Are you for real? I've never met you but I bet you're quite young. What a stupid comment to make. Think about it. With comments like that, it's pretty clear you are not gay, so, based on your statement, you fancy every female on the planet. That's your logic. And it's fucking stupid. As you let more out about yourself, I think I could gurantee that a lot of females would find you a bit repulsive, let alone what gay people would think of you. In other words, don't flatter youself to think that all gay people would fancy you, all the women certainly don't.
errmm...OK thank you for summing me up precisely!
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What about bisexuals?
I'd hate to be bisexual.
It's bad enough when women turn down my advances. It'd tip me over the edge if men spurned me as well.
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What about bisexuals?
I'd hate to be bisexual.
It's bad enough when women turn down my advances. It'd tip me over the edge if men spurned me as well.
It's getting to the stage now where I'm going to have to be 'buy-sexual'.
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If there was a current player openly gay do think the manager would ask him to play in the hole behind the main striker - **childish snigger**
It is obvious that his sexual pursuasion would have no link to his ability as a footballer and that pro footballers today are of the younger, more tolerant generation i do not feel any issues with team mates, as i would imagine in their private lives the modern young footballer will all have openly gay friends. so the only "negative" would be that the game is by and large plyed in front of (predominantly) working class males and is based on any aspect of a player being used in chants against them. Where once it was awful rascist shit, today it is more about their physical appearance "You fat bastard, big nose, etc) almost any aspect of their life (think Rednapps pending court case, Tony Adams inprisonment, John Carews penchant for topless ladies) are all used as verbal assaults on players - either good or bad.
I really do not think that being gay is an issue for the vast majority of fans but in a footbal stadium environment anything will and can be used to cause an opposition player to have a mare.
I used to be quite chunky and a little sensitive over my size - yet when a less than skinny player was at VP i would still be wrapped up in the motion of the crown and scream "You fat bastard".
The rugby player that came out was i think unique in as much as i dont know a boxer, footballer or any other team / individual player in a sport predominantly watched by men that is openly gay.
Interestingly - any man who watches womens football assumes they are all gay !
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Potentially a decent thread. Shouldn't it be in the Heroes Discussion forum?
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I can see comparisons with the racism issue in the seventies and early eighties. It would be difficult for the first couple who came out, - publicity/chanting and also comments from opponents and possibly team mates too. Most people would agree that with the amount of pro footballers in the country there must be a number who are gay and also a number who are homophobic. It's going to take a brave few to take the brunt of the stick to make it easier for the ones who follow.
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It's going to take a brave few to take the brunt of the stick to make it easier for the ones who follow.
My thoughts entirely - time for a 'leader of men', like Cyrille in the seventies, to consider his role on the football field to be more about communal gain than financial reward.
I'm not holding my breath mind, I fully expect the first 'out' to be past their best and more interested in selfishly igniting their own media career [I'm not cheap enough to make any suggestions here but they're obvious enough] rather then setting a precedent for young players to follow.
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The sad thing is 'football' as an establishment will ignore or excuse any type of behaviour that, in reality is quite wrong, but somehow it remains a special case so far as gay footballers are concerned. Its not even like football is an overtly machoistic sport, like rugby can be, and yet there are players in that sport who have let their sexuality be known. So what does it come down to in football? The fan culture, where abusive comments are made with impunity and without any kind of social remorse? The relative level (and I'm playing devil's advocate here) of education or the lower class backgrounds of the players in comparison to sports like rugby union or cricket engendering a certain culture within teams? The general ignorance of the media/fan attention? I don't know, but I believe it should be simple - footballers should feel completely at ease to be whoever they want*, and this taboo, in the modern world, is quite disgusting.
Edit * Obviously I'm talking about sexuality here, and not condoning any type of behaviour simply because someone wants to do it!
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No but non white players wouldn't try to bum you all the time :/
This is either a joke (an unfunny one), or you're a twat.
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I dont see what the problem is with gays, up to them at the end of the day there doing us no harm
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If a player celebrates a goal by having sex with his entire team, dressed as the Village People to a Eurodisco backing track, he wont be as gay as Lawro's voice and he's been in the game for decades, unfortunately.
Honestly, I dont know what the fuss is about. There might be a bit of banter over it and the odd moron who'll need to be thrown out of a ground but I think times have changed more than we sometimes think. There are so many gay celebrities now, I dont see what makes sportsmen so different. The more secretive and taboo it is, the more sensationalised and awkward. Just get on with it. It doesnt need to be publicised because its irrelevant. Its no more interesting to me than what car a player drives.
I personally couldn't give a monkeys if the entire Villa team were gay as long as they were good.
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If a player celebrates a goal by having sex with his entire team, dressed as the Village People to a Eurodisco backing track, he wont be as gay as Lawro's voice and he's been in the game for decades, unfortunately.
You'd certainly remember who was in the team if that was to happen.
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I dont see what the problem is with gays, up to them at the end of the day there doing us no harm
Spot on Alex. The best of British.
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I dont see what the problem is with gays, up to them at the end of the day there doing us no harm
Spot on Alex. The best of British.
I'm amazed we haven't had the classic.
'No problem with me, live and let live, as long as they don't try it on with me.'
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I admit, I am full of the `some of my best friends are gay' stuff. I have to go to a Lesbian wedding on Friday and I am bricking it.
I hate fights
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I dont care what they get up to as long as it's behind closed doors, with thick nuclear curtains, premium soundproofing and the keyholes blocked up with tissue, just in case I accidentally look through.
I dont want it in my face!
Oh go on then, honky tonk!
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I have to go to a Lesbian wedding on Friday and I am bricking it.
That's very intolerant of you. Plus one of your bricks may hurt a bird who likes cock.
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I have to go to a Lesbian wedding on Friday and I am bricking it.
That's very intolerant of you. Plus one of your bricks may hurt a bird who likes cock.
One of the girls getting married is a West Ham supporter and, I'm pretty sure, ICF
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I have to go to a Lesbian wedding on Friday and I am bricking it.
That's very intolerant of you. Plus one of your bricks may hurt a bird who likes cock.
One of the girls getting married is a West Ham supporter and, I'm pretty sure, ICF
So she's trying to have children?
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If a player celebrates a goal by having sex with his entire team, dressed as the Village People to a Eurodisco backing track
That was the toughest question from You are the Ref.
I think the correct answer is you award a red card to the goal scorer and yellow cards to the rest.
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The rugby player that came out was i think unique in as much as i dont know a boxer, footballer or any other team / individual player in a sport predominantly watched by men that is openly gay.
Gareth Thomas.
There was also that top Gaelic footballer in Ireland, and I think there was an Aussie Rules player too. Both rough, tough macho sports.
I think those who believe that it would only take one or two players to come out to open the floodgates are being overly optimistic. They would forever be branded in the tabloids as "xxx - the gay footballer", and get horrendous stick from opposition crowds. It's the last major taboo in football, held in place by the tribal nature of football support.
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Gareth Thomas.
There was also that top Gaelic footballer in Ireland, and I think there was an Aussie Rules player too. Both rough, tough macho sports.
It was the cork hurling goalkeeper. And yes, you'd want to be bat shit mental to be a hurling keeper. Think of a cricket ball flying at you with only a stick for protection and no padding. In fact, another keeper saved a penalty, but it hit him in the groin, and one of his testicles basically exploded. He cleared the ball before falling to the ground in agony.
I was pleasantly surprised by the reaction to his coming out (in his autobiography, naturally enough). I didn't follow it closely at all, but there appeared to be more controversy in some of his comments regarding rival teams than anything to do with his sexuality.
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Who gives a fuck if there are gay players in football?
Is it really still such an intolerant world?
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I have to go to a Lesbian wedding on Friday and I am bricking it.
That's very intolerant of you. Plus one of your bricks may hurt a bird who likes cock.
One of the girls getting married is a West Ham supporter and, I'm pretty sure, ICF
Ah the infamous "into cunnilingus firm" no?
I have no gay best friends as I find I have little in common with the ones I've met. For some reason they don't tend to share my main interests of football, tits and drinking beer, or enjoy discussing them.
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A gay bloke used to fancy me last year. It was obvious to all, including me. Understandable for the fella, I am really sexy. A Jewish girl also fancied me something rotten as well, even after I’d made a faux par about why we call our mate Jamie a certain racial slur. Not the most comfortable ways to find out somebody is Jewish. Although she still ate pork and I told her I’d shown my solidarity for her faith. She then spent the next few months trying to see that solidarity.
Off topic, me? Never.
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It was the cork hurling goalkeeper.
They are very adventurous these gays aren't they?
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I have no gay best friends as I find I have little in common with the ones I've met. For some reason they don't tend to share my main interests of football, tits and drinking beer, or enjoy discussing them.
You need to hook up with a few dykes. Make sure you're tooled up, mind
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My mate spent all of his time at my wedding reception trying to shag my wife's friend on the basis that she was a lesbian.
We met up a few weeks after the wedding, and he was very proud of attaining his target. Unfortunately he managed to prok her very straight and very ugly friend.
The lesbian he was after was sat on the next table.
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The game is not ready for the gays
Dehli is not ready for the games
I don't think you're ready for this jelly
And Harold Demure who's still not quite sure
Fires acorns from out of his tree
And is coming ready or not
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Football is too macho game. I wonder do ladies football have lesbian footballer coming out.
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Football is too macho game. I wonder do ladies football have lesbian footballer coming out.
Funny you should say that, a daughter of a family friend 'wears comfortable shoes' and a is pretty good footballer from all accounts, she was saying that the few straight players in the one team she played for were treated with suspicion and in some cases hostility by the rest of the team. Cuts both ways I suppose *shrugs*
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Football is too macho game. I wonder do ladies football have lesbian footballer coming out.
you clearly don't follow women's football very closely
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If a player celebrates a goal by having sex with his entire team, dressed as the Village People to a Eurodisco backing track
That was the toughest question from You are the Ref.
I think the correct answer is you award a red card to the goal scorer and yellow cards to the rest.
Very good.
It will take someone like that Gareth Thomas bloke to come out to make it OK. Some ugly no nonsense centre half who doesn't give a shit if the crowd give him dogs abuse. Preferably someone with his nose splattered halfway across his face or a guy who looks like a parachute jump gone wrong. That way, the crowd or even his own teammates won't feel so threatened.
Don't want to delve too much into this hornets nest though, some of my best friends own Right Said Fred CD's.
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...or watching any game recently. Most players I would not describe as 'macho', a bunch of diving , whining, play-acting twats.
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I have no gay best friends as I find I have little in common with the ones I've met. For some reason they don't tend to share my main interests of football, tits and drinking beer, or enjoy discussing them.
You need to hook up with a few dykes. Make sure you're tooled up, mind
Don't think I havent tried.
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No but non white players wouldn't try to bum you all the time :/
This is either a joke (an unfunny one), or you're a twat.
My guess is that it's ironic humour in the style of Ricky Gervais, and I found it amusing.
Certainly no grounds for calling the guy a twat.
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If a player celebrates a goal by having sex with his entire team, dressed as the Village People to a Eurodisco backing track
That was the toughest question from You are the Ref.
I think the correct answer is you award a red card to the goal scorer and yellow cards to the rest.
Surely not a straight red?
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There are plenty of gay footballers - the topic should be - Are the fans ready for gays?
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Its a big fat 'no' from Croatian Football Federation president Vlatko Markovic, the twat;
08. 11. 10. - 16:00
Homosexuals banned from Croatian national team, says football federation president
Croatian Times
Croatian gay and lesbian associations have condemned Croatian Football Federation president Vlatko Markovic after he said there was no place for homosexuals in the national team.
"While I'm a president of the Croatian Football Federation, there will be no homosexuals playing in the national team", Vlatko Markovic said in an interview with Croatian national daily Vecernji List.
Asked whether in his career he has met a homosexual footballer, he has replied:
"Luckily, only normal people play football".
Gay and lesbian associations have informed the Croatian media that they will sue the Football Federation President for discrimination. They also intend to report Vlatko Markovic to UEFA.
The Croatian national football team is in the top ten of the FIFA world ranking.
http://www.croatiantimes.com/news/Sports/2010-11-08/15006/Homosexuals_banned_from_Croatian_national_team,_says_football_federation_president
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By coincidence, I was just reading an article on the beeb the other day about Mario Gomes, the German international calling for gays to come out publicly.
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"Luckily, only normal people play football".
******.
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I must admit two women together does it for me what about you Dave.
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I don't think it's ready for gays; the next generation maybe.
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Homophobic chants could be erradicated over time by a zero tolerance policy within grounds and I would hope most civilised people would report any incidents. I fear the biggest issue would be hostility amongst teammates, which beggars belief but a dressing room is a "macho" environment and we are mostly talking about ill educated people here. I doubt very much that any club would take a stand here by disciplining or even firing a valuable player for homophobic behaviour which is an appalling state. Fowler should have been dragged over the coals for the Le saux incident but instead it was good old Robbie having a laff.
In my experience though with my own teenage kids and their mates , colour of skin or sexuality is not even remotely an issue and it could well be that theirs is the generation that this could be finally be sorted. Christ if the Tory party can make big strides on this....
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I'm just amazed that anyone should expect this to be a difficulty. When one thinks of all the other spheres of life in which the sexuality of the participants has been accepted as being of no consequence, I can't imagine that Premiership football will prove to be any different.
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Was it the Royle family - I dont care if they are gay, straight or Australian
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If players do "come out" would clubs need separate changing rooms for gay and non gay players?
I was going to say that perhaps it will change over the next 10 years the way much of racism has been eradicated, but with comments like the above I will say 20 years.
My comment is not homophobic...3 of my best friends are gay... and I have discussed this issue with them. No it's about the basics ...think about it why do we have separate changing rooms for males and females?
Are you for real? I've never met you but I bet you're quite young. What a stupid comment to make. Think about it. With comments like that, it's pretty clear you are not gay, so, based on your statement, you fancy every female on the planet. That's your logic. And it's fucking stupid. As you let more out about yourself, I think I could gurantee that a lot of females would find you a bit repulsive, let alone what gay people would think of you. In other words, don't flatter youself to think that all gay people would fancy you, all the women certainly don't.
Sorry but are you for real? The poster makes some pertinent points about the reasons why men and women feel the need to be segregated and how this bears on the topic in question. As he goes on to say:
No you don't however since we the human race became "civilised" we have felt the need to separate ourselves based on sexuality. Males and Females have to be separated in various stages depending on what part of the world and your religion. The most basic separation applied by everyone across the world is changing rooms and toilets. Why is that? Is it privacy and human beings, especially males, are not able to control themselves and therefore the sight of naked female form will lead them to behave badly. If that is the case than sexuality is the driver.
Maybe if you would care to give a little deeper thought to those issues rather than spitting venomous comments at another poster, your comments would appear a little less stupid and ignorant. I estimate i probably fancy about 5% of the female population, i'm not sure what the figures would be for the other way around, yet there is still male and female segregation. Your point is not only made in a rude manner, it is also a complete non sequitur.
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It really shouldn't matter though should it? If you've been a team mate of secretly gay man, he probably hasn't tried to jump you before while getting changed for a game. Do you think he'd do that if he admitted to his sexuality? Off course he wouldn't. And if you know now your team mate is gay, and you were his mate before, why should it change anything? I've never understood why having that information chnages anything.
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Being heterosexual isn't normal, it's just common.
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tbh, after having my ass grabbed by some creepy old gay man last week I don't think I'd feel comfortable myself personally sharing a locker room with a gay. If I was in a football team with a gay I'd make it clear to stay clear of me when I take a shower, someone staring at my manhood whilst I'm showering would freak me out
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Being heterosexual isn't normal, it's just common.
Sorry to be a pedant, but normal derives from 'norm', which derives from the latin 'norma', which essentially mean common or usual practice, hence 'normal' and 'common' are near synonyms.
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tbh, after having my ass grabbed by some creepy old gay man last week I don't think I'd feel comfortable myself personally sharing a locker room with a gay. If I was in a football team with a gay I'd make it clear to stay clear of me when I take a shower, someone staring at my manhood whilst I'm showering would freak me out
so what if say an ugly woman grabs your ass in bar? Is it any different? I assume you wouldn't find either appealing. Do you honestly think all gay men want to randomly grope other men? Are you really going to brand them all the same because of one isolated incident?
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If I was in a football team with a gay I'd make it clear to stay clear of me when I take a shower, someone staring at my manhood whilst I'm showering would freak me out
I'd be flattered, I can't afford to be too fussy anymore.
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Is the game ready for gays? No.
They would get a barrage of stick at every ground and i'd be joining in, just look at Upson, there were only rumours going round about him and he got dogs abuse every time he came to Villa. You don't get all the straight players coming out saying 'yeah i'm straight, i love women' so if gays don't want to be different why would they come out and say 'yeah i'm gay, i love blokes'.
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Is the game ready for gays? No.
They would get a barrage of stick at every ground and i'd be joining in, just look at Upson, there were only rumours going round about him and he got dogs abuse every time he came to Villa. You don't get all the straight players coming out saying 'yeah i'm straight, i love women' so if gays don't want to be different why would they come out and say 'yeah i'm gay, i love blokes'.
how very mature of you
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Atleast Blackcountry Villa is honest. In the heat of the moment anyone can shout anything. I've heard many racist slurs in the North Stand but I bet those culprits will claim they're not racist.
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Is the game ready for gays? No.
They would get a barrage of stick at every ground and i'd be joining in, just look at Upson, there were only rumours going round about him and he got dogs abuse every time he came to Villa. You don't get all the straight players coming out saying 'yeah i'm straight, i love women' so if gays don't want to be different why would they come out and say 'yeah i'm gay, i love blokes'.
how very mature of you
And completely unsurprising.
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They can claim what they like.
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Interesting debate. I don't think footy is ready and I'm not that sure of the racism issue either. Fans have long accepted black players but its hardly a multicultural game in the stands is it yet. I'm taking a neighbours lad to the game in a few weeks, he's black. I was looking around on Saturday and there isn't one person in sight who isn't white. If this 7 year old kid cops any flack I'll walk out and consider never coming back. I think decent people on here can 'want' a footy ground where homophobia and racism don't exist but the reality is that footy grounds aren't really representative of society. Some people would argue they are the last bastion of the white working class man. And like it or not they aren't as PC as some think they should be.
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Is the game ready for gays? No.
They would get a barrage of stick at every ground and i'd be joining in, just look at Upson, there were only rumours going round about him and he got dogs abuse every time he came to Villa. You don't get all the straight players coming out saying 'yeah i'm straight, i love women' so if gays don't want to be different why would they come out and say 'yeah i'm gay, i love blokes'.
That's the same kind of pathetic excuse we heard back in the 70s and 80s in regard to racist abuse aimed at black players. It seems the knuckleheads haven't gone away, they're just concentrating on being homophobic these days.
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Blackcountry Villa would join in, will wonders ever cease....he seems like such an enlightened chap
On a a slight tangent I actually don't think there are that many gays in football. You simply cant extrapolate x% of gays in the overall population = x% in professional football.
I live in Brighton, and in a gay area. I also have a great many gay friends (I am pretty damn metro myself). Not one of them really like football. There is a pub near me that when the Eurovision song contest is on, calls in the gay FA Cup Final. I am of course making generalisations here as you get plenty of gay guys that do like sports. There may well be a fair few pros who are gay, just not the numbers that some people claim.
Also I can honestly not think of a time when I have been down the Withdean Stadium to watch Brighton where the opposing fans have not chanted about us being gay.
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So i take it noone on here joined in with the 'Upson takes it up the arse' chants and you all sat there shaking your heads in disgust then? I highly doubt that somehow.
It doesn't mean i'm homophobic, i've got gay friends, it would just be abuse and songs towards a footballer. They would have thousands chanting at them every week, it doesn't mean everyone is homophobic.
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So i take it noone on here joined in with the 'Upson takes it up the arse' chants and you all sat there shaking your heads in disgust then? I highly doubt that somehow.
It doesn't mean i'm homophobic, i've got gay friends, it would just be abuse and songs towards a footballer. They would have thousands chanting at them every week, it doesn't mean everyone is homophobic.
If people were singing racist songs would you join in ? I assume just because you sing them it doesn't make you a racist does it ?
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Many people who rarely lash out and say something offensive when they shouldn't of - doesn't mean they're racist/homophobic or whatever just because you said it once or twice in anger and frustration. I think there's many people who have said things when perhaps they shouldn't of. I'll hold my hands up to doing so.
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So i take it noone on here joined in with the 'Upson takes it up the arse' chants and you all sat there shaking your heads in disgust then? I highly doubt that somehow.
It doesn't mean i'm homophobic, i've got gay friends, it would just be abuse and songs towards a footballer. They would have thousands chanting at them every week, it doesn't mean everyone is homophobic.
You could take that halfwitted, asinine argument and replace "gay" with "black" and "homophobic" with "racist", and how acceptable would that be?
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It doesn't mean i'm homophobic, i've got gay friends, it would just be abuse and songs towards a ootballer. They would have thousands chanting at them every week, it doesn't mean everyone is homophobic.
Make sure you pack your bananas when Arsenal come to town in ten days then. After all, it would just be abuse towards a footballer.
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Many people who rarely lash out and say something offensive when they shouldn't of - doesn't mean they're racist/homophobic or whatever just because you said it once or twice in anger and frustration. I think there's many people who have said things when perhaps they shouldn't of. I'll hold my hands up to doing so.
I can honestly say I've never racially or homophobically abused anyone, no matter how angry or frustrated I was.
Singing homophobic nonsense at Matthew Upson season in, season out is hardly the sign of thousands of people making one-off, acceptable errors of judgement.
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there are gay footballers, the press know who they are and so do lots of other people in the game, but gay and footballer is extremely rare, i have only met one gay footballer and i have played with and against several hundreds
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by the way i found the abuse that Upson got at VP disgusting and embaressing
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I can see BCV's point, though don't necessarily agree. The one thing, usually a physically attribute, that marks someone out from the norm will always be commented on, and at a football game (where you don't tend to hear subtle songs) chanted about. It's just human nature. For Dave Cooper it was Richard Walker's (remember him?) square jaw, many of us Fernando Nelson's fantastic hair, for others Salifou's ''minesweeper head'' (cos it's spiky and black) etc.
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Has Black Country Villa started going back to Villa games then?
A few months ago he was calling us all mugs for paying good money to watch Villa when he could stay in some yam-yam drinking den with his incomprehensible Wolves mates, watching Villa on Sky.
With his opinions on standing and anti-gay chanting, Black Country Villa seems determined to re-create the "halcyon" days of the 80s which, I presume, he's too young to have experienced first hand.
I'd have loved him to have called Justin Fashanu a bummer to his face.
Don't get me wrong though, some of my best mates are Black Country
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Personally, I couldn't give a fuck if a player is gay or straight. As long as they give 100% when ITSOTP.
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Don't get me wrong though, some of my best mates are Black Country
The dirty bastards.
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This is a ridiculous thread which has NOTHING to do with football.
As for homophobia, what about the other way around??
There's a Gay League for christ's sake!
Which have only just allowed a non bent side into their league???? So you want to discuss homophobia, or discrimination - get stuffed! Because it works both ways.
Plus i love the fact that everyone on this post is above board and fair??? Like none of you on here can hand on heart, honestly say you've never sung about Upson lifting shirts?
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So i take it noone on here joined in with the 'Upson takes it up the arse' chants and you all sat there shaking your heads in disgust then? I highly doubt that somehow.
It doesn't mean i'm homophobic, i've got gay friends, it would just be abuse and songs towards a footballer. They would have thousands chanting at them every week, it doesn't mean everyone is homophobic.
If people were singing racist songs would you join in ? I assume just because you sing them it doesn't make you a racist does it ?
Quite right, but we're not talking about racism?? So don't confuse arguments.
However, whether you like it or not, there was more than several thousand voices chanting those songs... and telling me that noone else was one of them??? Yeah right.
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Plus i love the fact that everyone on this post is above board and fair??? Like none of you on here can hand on heart, honestly say you've never sung about Upson lifting shirts?
I can hand on heart, honestly say that I've never sung anything like that to Upson or anyone else.
Mainly because I'm not an idiot.
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This is a ridiculous thread which has NOTHING to do with football.
As for homophobia, what about the other way around??
There's a Gay League for christ's sake!
Which have only just allowed a non bent side into their league???? So you want to discuss homophobia, or discrimination - get stuffed! Because it works both ways.
Plus i love the fact that everyone on this post is above board and fair??? Like none of you on here can hand on heart, honestly say you've never sung about Upson lifting shirts?
Hello Kryten.
You're banned still. And this outburst of fuckwittedness has just reminded us why.
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I am still livid with rage after, back in 1990, the Holte End sang "Get yer tits out for the lads!" at a troupe of 12-14 year-old Majorettes who were twirling their way across the 12-yard box.
Disgraceful behaviour: I mean, "Lads" Tsk! Some of them could have been lesbians you know!
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Haha, Sniffer Walnuts strikes again!
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Hello Kryten.
You're banned still. And this outburst of fuckwittedness has just reminded us why.
I think Kryton doth protest too much....
Maybe there's something he wants to tell us about himself
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Has Black Country Villa started going back to Villa games then?
A few months ago he was calling us all mugs for paying good money to watch Villa when he could stay in some yam-yam drinking den with his incomprehensible Wolves mates, watching Villa on Sky.
He seemed quite active on the match thread for the Man Utd game at the weekend as well.
I'd have thought he'd be too busy standing and singing to try to find a good wi-fi signal in the Holte.
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This is a ridiculous thread which has NOTHING to do with football.
As for homophobia, what about the other way around??
There's a Gay League for christ's sake!
They'd let you play if you show them your cock.
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For Dave Cooper it was Richard Walker's (remember him?) square jaw,
My chant of "You're just a shit David Coulthard" never caught on.
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From The Guardian today.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/17/football-gay-players-support
Is football ready for gay players to come out?
Chris Basiurski
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 17 November 2010 10.00 GMT
Justin Fashanu, pictured in 1981, was the first professional football player to come out. Photograph: Allsport
A leading German footballer, Mario Gómez, has urged gay players to come out, but is he right to do so?
It is often said that football is one of the last bastions of homophobia. Is football ready to openly accept gay players?
I am of one of the lucky ones. I play in the Gay Football Supporters Network (GFSN) national league, the world's only national football league for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community – and yes, straight people are welcome as well.
The GFSN is more than 20 years old and was originally set up to help football supporters from the LGBT community meet each other. Now, as well as continuing to offer a real social network, we work with the footballing authorities to tackle the issue of homophobia within football.
The league exists to provide the chance for people to play in a safe and relaxed atmosphere but is also about reintroducing football to people who may have felt alienated from the game because of their sexuality.
There are two schools of thought about a suggestion such as Gómez's. One argues that anything to do with a player's personal life is a distraction and that players' primary obligations are towards their club, team mates and fans. We have seen from the recent examples of Wayne Rooney and John Terry that off-the-field problems can have a dramatic impact on a player's form. A player coming out would create huge headlines around the world and would bring enormous media pressure, not to mention pressure from the terraces and fellow professionals. Careers are short. Is it worth the risk?
On the other hand, there is the strong argument that the burden of hiding one's sexuality can be damaging and that the release of having opened up to the world can actually make someone a better player. I know that when I came out I was much happier, more focused and more excited by the possibilities that I knew would open up to me.
For professional players, the rewards could be great. Not only would they be free from the stresses of hiding their private lives, but their standing might be enhanced. Ian Roberts, the popular Australian rugby league player, found his sponsorship opportunities increased, while the likes of Martina Navratilova and Gareth Thomas are respected for more than just their sporting achievements.
There is also the question of whether players owe it to society to be role models for others. Undoubtedly footballers are seen as such, but is this fair? The court of appeal, when reducing Eric Cantona's jail sentence to community service, stated that no one should be held to a higher standard just because they are in the public eye. It is not necessarily a footballer's job to be a social pioneer.
Is football in the UK even ready for a player coming out? I do not think so. The football associations and the clubs need to ensure that match day officials, both on and off the pitch, are properly trained and ready to recognise and appropriately respond to instances of anti-gay abuse.
The PFA and PFA Scotland will need to be ready to deal with any issues that might arise with fellow professionals from a player coming out, while it would benefit the player to have a good PR person on board to safely navigate the media minefield. The GFSN, together with the likes of the Justin Campaign, Kick It Out, Peter Tatchell, Pride Sports and Stonewall, have shown their commitment to assist; the football world needs to respond.
The example of the UK's only male professional player to come out, Justin Fashanu, gives a sober warning of the dangers facing gay professionals, although this was many years ago. Society has moved on and is generally more accepting than it was back in 1988.
Unless a player is outed in the media, which would surely be a worst case scenario, I believe that the next time a player comes out in this country will be after they have retired, perhaps when releasing their autobiography.
Coming out is incredibly personal. At the GFSN, we would not presume to dictate to anyone how and when they choose to reveal their sexuality, nor should anyone else in the football community or the media do so either. We all need to work together to create an atmosphere in football where a player who chooses to come out can do so safely, without being destroyed by "merciless fans" and the media.
I long for the day when an openly gay British football player can put on his shirt and be welcomed by the fans in the same way as any other player. At the moment, we are a long way from achieving this.