Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: PaulTheVillan on September 20, 2010, 08:46:55 AM
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Sky Sports (http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11677_6389651,00.html)
Let's hope he gets the best out of a few others also.
Stephen Ireland is confident that Gerard Houllier will help get the best out of him at Aston Villa.
New boss Houllier watched from the stands on Saturday as Villa were held to a 1-1 draw with Bolton.
The Frenchman officially takes charge on Monday and Ireland is looking forward to working with the former Liverpool chief.
"I think the change is going to have to be gradual," he said.
"Managers at other clubs have come in and changed things too fast too soon and it hasn't worked.
"I know Houllier has got big plans, and all the players will have to get on board. Hopefully we can go far in the cups and have a nice finish in the league.
"I'm happy with the appointment and everyone is looking forward to the future.
"Hopefully he can get the best out of me. The fans still have more to see. I'm still getting to understand the players on the pitch."
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He can't change things soon enough as far as I'm concerned.
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Ireland has had the distinct disadvantage of being played in the wrong position, while Ash Young continually struggles in Stevies natural role. Sooner GH sorts that, the better.
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Be interesting to see how Houllier accommodates him, his best position would be just behind the striker, but Ashley plays there at the moment.
Playing with 2 wingers is also leaving us chronicaly weak in the centre of midfield.
Hou has certainly got his work cut out over the next few weeks.
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Yeah but Mon played two wingers and we didnt look as weak as that, needs to be balanced better. Im sure he'll sort & if players aren't on board then they can fuck off somewhere else
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NMTNW
Never Mind The Nice Words - let's see it please....
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In selling Milner we effectively lost two players such was his influence on the side. Doing it without replacing him was a major mistake.
We're in the worst of both worlds at the moment; playing an open, attacking game that leaves us vulnerable at the back but not scoring the goals to make it viable.
Whatever the genuine and revisionist criticisms of MON are he had made us difficult to beat, we've lost that and the first thng GH has to do is get it back and sod all the guff about entertaining football until we've earned the right to play it.
At the start of last season before Downing was fit and Milner moved into the middle we had to make do and mend but were able to achive decent results by using Reo Coker and Sidwell so there's no reason why we can't do it again.
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As others have said, Ireland needs the freedom to get forward behind a striker.
I think NRC and Delph (when fit) are the two work horses we need in the middle behind Ireland, Young and Downing/Albrighton.
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In selling Milner we effectively lost two players such was his influence on the side. Doing it without replacing him was a major mistake.
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I agree Chris that losing Milner is a massive loss, but how could we replace him with no Manager?
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In selling Milner we effectively lost two players such was his influence on the side. Doing it without replacing him was a major mistake.
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I agree Chris that losing Milner is a massive loss, but how could we replace him with no Manager?
Replace him with no manager = "the board are choosing the players we buy"
Don't replace him with no manager = "we sold him and didn't replace him"
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In selling Milner we effectively lost two players such was his influence on the side. Doing it without replacing him was a major mistake.
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I agree Chris that losing Milner is a massive loss, but how could we replace him with no Manager?
I think MacDonald could have been trusted to buy a player or if not then don't sell him. It was nearly 2 weeks after MON left that he moved, if we'd really wanted to we could have held onto him.
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In selling Milner we effectively lost two players such was his influence on the side. Doing it without replacing him was a major mistake.
We're in the worst of both worlds at the moment; playing an open, attacking game that leaves us vulnerable at the back but not scoring the goals to make it viable.
Whatever the genuine and revisionist criticisms of MON are he had made us difficult to beat, we've lost that and the first thng GH has to do is get it back and sod all the guff about entertaining football until we've earned the right to play it.
At the start of last season before Downing was fit and Milner moved into the middle we had to make do and mend but were able to achive decent results by using Reo Coker and Sidwell so there's no reason why we can't do it again.
Agree with this. Houllier needs to make us hard to beat again. We are not going to be free scoring so he needs to sort the side out defensively and give us the strong mental appraoch we had under MON. Pretty it may not be at first, but the lack of organisation in the side (and losing Milner) has left us with a very soft centre.
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In selling Milner we effectively lost two players such was his influence on the side. Doing it without replacing him was a major mistake.
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I agree Chris that losing Milner is a massive loss, but how could we replace him with no Manager?
I think MacDonald could have been trusted to buy a player or if not then don't sell him. It was nearly 2 weeks after MON left that he moved, if we'd really wanted to we could have held onto him.
Come off it Nick Clegg, er..,. I mean Chris.
You're not going to allow a temporary manager to spend decent money on a player that the next manager may not want.
As for Milner, he surely wanted to go due to the riches on offer to him.
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In selling Milner we effectively lost two players such was his influence on the side. Doing it without replacing him was a major mistake.
Compounded by the walk out of our manager though don't you think. Had he remained I'm sure he would have bought in more than Ireland in the midfield.
Now because of his timing, we were left with no one to make the decision even though as General K reiterated this morning, Randy will provide funds.
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I think NRC and Delph (when fit) are the two work horses we need in the middle behind Ireland, Young and Downing/Albrighton.
Speaking of whom, any update on when he'll be back?
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In selling Milner we effectively lost two players such was his influence on the side. Doing it without replacing him was a major mistake.
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I agree Chris that losing Milner is a massive loss, but how could we replace him with no Manager?
I think MacDonald could have been trusted to buy a player or if not then don't sell him. It was nearly 2 weeks after MON left that he moved, if we'd really wanted to we could have held onto him.
There has to be some doubt that Milner would have continued busting a gut for us had he been forced to stay against his wishes. Unfortunately it's a fact of modern footballing life that once a player's head has been turned few clubs see much point in trying to keep them. That said, Barry gave us a decent season after he was forced to stay.
It doesn't make sense to allow the caretaker manager to make big signings unless he is going to get the job full time.
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In order to get the best out of Ireland we need to play him with a specialist defensive midfielder if we're playing a 4 across the middle, which we don't really have. I'd try an Ireland/NRC combo to see how it goes, but a Petrov upgrade is needed longterm.
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There is no evidence to suggest Milner would have done anything other than play his heart out had he been denied a move to Citeh. As was evidenced in his one game this season against Wet Spam. A game that remains our one and only decent performance so far.
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In selling Milner we effectively lost two players such was his influence on the side. Doing it without replacing him was a major mistake.
.
I agree Chris that losing Milner is a massive loss, but how could we replace him with no Manager?
I think MacDonald could have been trusted to buy a player or if not then don't sell him. It was nearly 2 weeks after MON left that he moved, if we'd really wanted to we could have held onto him.
Come off it Nick Clegg, er..,. I mean Chris.
You're not going to allow a temporary manager to spend decent money on a player that the next manager may not want.
As for Milner, he surely wanted to go due to the riches on offer to him.
Of course he did but surely we do what is best for Aston Villa not James Milner?
As I said we might be able to muddle through until we either buy a replacement or Delph is available but it means we have to show a bit better organisation than we have so far.
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There is no evidence to suggest Milner would have done anything other than play his heart out had he been denied a move to Citeh. As was evidenced in his one game this season against Wet Spam. A game that remains our one and only decent performance so far.
Quite, I couldn't see him pissing about and risk losing his England place.
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In selling Milner we effectively lost two players such was his influence on the side. Doing it without replacing him was a major mistake.
.
I agree Chris that losing Milner is a massive loss, but how could we replace him with no Manager?
I think MacDonald could have been trusted to buy a player or if not then don't sell him. It was nearly 2 weeks after MON left that he moved, if we'd really wanted to we could have held onto him.
Come off it Nick Clegg, er..,. I mean Chris.
You're not going to allow a temporary manager to spend decent money on a player that the next manager may not want.
As for Milner, he surely wanted to go due to the riches on offer to him.
Of course he did but surely we do what is best for Aston Villa not James Milner?
We have done what is best for Aston Villa, the new manager will have £18m to spend in January, or The Summer.
The £26m offer was to good for the club or player to turn down.
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In selling Milner we effectively lost two players such was his influence on the side. Doing it without replacing him was a major mistake.
.
I agree Chris that losing Milner is a massive loss, but how could we replace him with no Manager?
I think MacDonald could have been trusted to buy a player or if not then don't sell him. It was nearly 2 weeks after MON left that he moved, if we'd really wanted to we could have held onto him.
Come off it Nick Clegg, er..,. I mean Chris.
You're not going to allow a temporary manager to spend decent money on a player that the next manager may not want.
As for Milner, he surely wanted to go due to the riches on offer to him.
Of course he did but surely we do what is best for Aston Villa not James Milner?
We have done what is best for Aston Villa, the new manager will have £18m to spend in January, or The Summer.
The £26m offer was to good for the club or player to turn down.
That's a matter of opinion, it doesn't look like great business at the moment.
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In selling Milner we effectively lost two players such was his influence on the side. Doing it without replacing him was a major mistake.
.
I agree Chris that losing Milner is a massive loss, but how could we replace him with no Manager?
I think MacDonald could have been trusted to buy a player or if not then don't sell him. It was nearly 2 weeks after MON left that he moved, if we'd really wanted to we could have held onto him.
Come off it Nick Clegg, er..,. I mean Chris.
You're not going to allow a temporary manager to spend decent money on a player that the next manager may not want.
As for Milner, he surely wanted to go due to the riches on offer to him.
Of course he did but surely we do what is best for Aston Villa not James Milner?
We have done what is best for Aston Villa, the new manager will have £18m to spend in January, or The Summer.
The £26m offer was to good for the club or player to turn down.
That's a matter of opinion, it doesn't look like great business at the moment.
The 'great business' thing presumes we'll get Ireland and the £18m gets spent on the side, which hasn't happened yet.
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The General said on his thread
'I can tell you that Randy is behind him and will be behind him come the next window.'
I see that as a willingness to give funds to Houllier and The General is a man of his word.
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In selling Milner we effectively lost two players such was his influence on the side. Doing it without replacing him was a major mistake.
.
I agree Chris that losing Milner is a massive loss, but how could we replace him with no Manager?
I think MacDonald could have been trusted to buy a player or if not then don't sell him. It was nearly 2 weeks after MON left that he moved, if we'd really wanted to we could have held onto him.
Come off it Nick Clegg, er..,. I mean Chris.
You're not going to allow a temporary manager to spend decent money on a player that the next manager may not want.
As for Milner, he surely wanted to go due to the riches on offer to him.
Of course he did but surely we do what is best for Aston Villa not James Milner?
We have done what is best for Aston Villa, the new manager will have £18m to spend in January, or The Summer.
The £26m offer was to good for the club or player to turn down.
That's a matter of opinion, it doesn't look like great business at the moment.
The 'great business' thing presumes we'll get Ireland and the £18m gets spent on the side, which hasn't happened yet.
It can't happen yet - the window is closed.
Why not give them the benefit of the doubt on it? They haven't let us down so far.
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It can't happen yet - the window is closed.
Why not give them the benefit of the doubt on it? They haven't let us down so far.
As I said on the other thread, I am giving them the benefit of the doubt. What I was getting at here is that selling Milner is still a financially good decision, but not so much footballing wise as we were unable to spend the cash.
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The General said on his thread
'I can tell you that Randy is behind him and will be behind him come the next window.'
I see that as a willingness to give funds to Houllier and The General is a man of his word.
There is no doubt that a dsecision was made at Villa Park after MON left that having the money was more important than having James Milner. I'm sure that funds will be made available for Gerry but it depends on what his remit is.
If we eventually replace him with an equally talented player then that's great, if we use it to buy a number of lesser players then, in my view, we're worse off. At the moment we're just guessing as to which way we'll go.
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There is no doubt that a dsecision was made at Villa Park after MON left that having the money was more important than having James Milner. I'm sure that funds will be made available for Gerry but it depends on what his remit is.
There certainly is doubt. Why put it in such stark terms? Maybe the transfer had gone so far down the line, it was beyond pulling? That might or might not be the case, but there's certainly a possibility that was the case - ie doubt.
I'm sure in the past, Chris, you've been firmly in the camp of "you can't keep an unhappy player" yet now you're of totally the opposite opinion.
Would you also agree that a decision was made that it was more important to have money plus a good player in return rather than just more money?
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I have to say Ireland's form is a bit of a concern. Hopefully it's a settling in and just a symptom of the general listlessness that's surrounding B6 at the moment, but he hasn't shone like I expected him to. Still, it's nothing I wouldn't expect our new coaching staff to sort.
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Houllier seems to prefer 4-3-3 and 4-5-1, so I can see in the short term NRC coming back into the side alongside Petrov with Ireland playing in a 3 or 5 man midfield in the same way Juninho played for him at Lyon. I wouldn't mind seeing Gabby going back out to the rightside, as he did during MON's first season in charge when probably we played our best football under him.
A strong defence and midfield doesn't have to be dull but Chris is right, we really do need to sort it out.
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All players need time to settle in From what I've read on Blue Moon they've been unimpressed with Milner to date he did very little yesterday apparently but I'm sure in time he will be fantastic for them as he was for us and the same goes for Ireland for us he needs time.Remember he's hardly been playing prior to coming to us.GH will sort it and get the best out of him- Please God
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There is no doubt that a dsecision was made at Villa Park after MON left that having the money was more important than having James Milner.
The way I see the decision making process is James Milner v Stehpen Ireland plus £18m of new talent. The only thing that changes is the understanding that the '£18m of new talent' won't be coming straight away. It could be argued that the club made the right choice by taking a longterm view and decided to take one step back in order to take two foward.
As I've said before, the proof will be if we do take these two steps forward!
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There is no doubt that a dsecision was made at Villa Park after MON left that having the money was more important than having James Milner. I'm sure that funds will be made available for Gerry but it depends on what his remit is.
There certainly is doubt. Why put it in such stark terms? Maybe the transfer had gone so far down the line, it was beyond pulling? That might or might not be the case, but there's certainly a possibility that was the case - ie doubt.
I'm sure in the past, Chris, you've been firmly in the camp of "you can't keep an unhappy player" yet now you're of totally the opposite opinion.
Would you also agree that a decision was made that it was more important to have money plus a good player in return rather than just more money?
If we were unable to buy players because we had no manager why were we able to take on in part exchange? Surely the same arguments apply? You know that I was less than enthusiastic over the prospect of Ireland because I didn't see that he'd fit into our current set up, so far it appears to have been a correct assessment.
If the club had really wanted to they could have stopped the deal. He was under contact to us and, as I said, above he was unlikely to risk his England place by not performing. They had the perfect excuse with the loss of manager but chose not to take it. That might prove to be a great decision if we use the money well but it has left us vulnerable at the moment.
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Leaving aside the behind the scenes stuff, I think it's obvious how much Milner is missed on the pitch. It's if we continue to miss him that will cause a problem.
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Has anybody heard any information on whether MON was for or against the incoming Ireland transfer?
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Has anybody heard any information on whether MON was for or against the incoming Ireland transfer?
As Ireland was only too aware of the deal before it happened we can only assume MON was for it.
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I don't think we can assume that O'Neill was in favour of the Ireland component of the transfer. On what basis can we assume that?
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Has anybody heard any information on whether MON was for or against the incoming Ireland transfer?
As Ireland was only too aware of the deal before it happened we can only assume MON was for it.
Or he wasn't and that forced him to resign? Bit of Devil's Advocate there, but I don't think we can be certain either way!
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Some of the rumours on him leaving was he wanted cash only and not Ireland as part of the deal.
I still prefer Ireland ahead of Mcgeady for example on who the money was possibly being spent on. But hopefully he will start to play in his new position and alleviate the vague Sidwellian apprehensions I have from his perfomances so far.
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Has anybody heard any information on whether MON was for or against the incoming Ireland transfer?
As Ireland was only too aware of the deal before it happened we can only assume MON was for it.
Or he wasn't and that forced him to resign? Bit of Devil's Advocate there, but I don't think we can be certain either way!
When Ireland signed he made reference to doing his homework on the Villa, speaking to several former players about the club. He certainly gave the impression he knew for some time of Villa's interest in him and how he was to be part of the Milner deal.
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I don't think we can assume that O'Neill was in favour of the Ireland component of the transfer. On what basis can we assume that?
My understanding is that he was happy with having Ireland in part exchange, he was less happy at being refused permission to sign McGready and Keane for a combined total of the Milner proceeds.
He'd have probably put them on £50,000-60,000pw wages as well.
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When Ireland signed he made reference to doing his homework on the Villa, speaking to several former players about the club. He certainly gave the impression he knew for some time of Villa's interest in him and how he was to be part of the Milner deal.
I'm sure he did. But does that mean Martin wanted him? Or more importantly that Martin wanted him more than the extra cash given that he wasn't able to shift the 'unwanted 6' as he intended?
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To me the best way to get the best out of Ireland is to switch Ashley back to left wing and bench Downing - That was we have Allbrighton and Young wide with NRC and Petrov in the middle with Ireland in behind Gabby, in a 4231 or 4411 depending how you look at it. To do this we will have to pass the ball to each other and not just hit it long to Gabby for example when he is being marked by a 6'5" Zat Knight.
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I am still of the view that Stephen Ireland is not an 'Aston Villa type' player. We don't do show ponies.
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I don't think we can assume that O'Neill was in favour of the Ireland component of the transfer. On what basis can we assume that?
My understanding is that he was happy with having Ireland in part exchange, he was less happy at being refused permission to sign McGready and Keane for a combined total of the Milner proceeds.
He'd have probably put them on £50,000-60,000pw wages as well.
If we sign the wrong player then it is the manager's responsibility as it is a football decision. If we pay them too much then it is a bsusiness decision.
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To me the best way to get the best out of Ireland is to switch Ashley back to left wing and bench Downing - That was we have Allbrighton and Young wide with NRC and Petrov in the middle with Ireland in behind Gabby, in a 4231 or 4411 depending how you look at it. To do this we will have to pass the ball to each other and not just hit it long to Gabby for example when he is being marked by a 6'5" Zat Knight.
Albrighton is the one that needs resting, Downing has been one of our better performers in the last 2 games.
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To me the best way to get the best out of Ireland is to switch Ashley back to left wing and bench Downing - That was we have Allbrighton and Young wide with NRC and Petrov in the middle with Ireland in behind Gabby, in a 4231 or 4411 depending how you look at it. To do this we will have to pass the ball to each other and not just hit it long to Gabby for example when he is being marked by a 6'5" Zat Knight.
Let's face it, that's the only formation that can accommodate Ireland, good player though he is - which does leave a problem for the new manager as he has a Milner size hole to fill until January at least.
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I don't think we can assume that O'Neill was in favour of the Ireland component of the transfer. On what basis can we assume that?
My understanding is that he was happy with having Ireland in part exchange, he was less happy at being refused permission to sign McGready and Keane for a combined total of the Milner proceeds.
He'd have probably put them on £50,000-60,000pw wages as well.
If we sign the wrong player then it is the manager's responsibility as it is a football decision. If we pay them too much then it is a bsusiness decision.
I don't think we can assume that O'Neill was in favour of the Ireland component of the transfer. On what basis can we assume that?
My understanding is that he was happy with having Ireland in part exchange, he was less happy at being refused permission to sign McGready and Keane for a combined total of the Milner proceeds.
He'd have probably put them on £50,000-60,000pw wages as well.
If we sign the wrong player then it is the manager's responsibility as it is a football decision. If we pay them too much then it is a bsusiness decision.
In that case my friend the business decision takes priority so in effect the Chief Exec makes the decision that the proposed wages are too high then its back to the players agent to consider the buying clubs wage offer. If the rumours concerning some of the salaries that O'Neill gave to players are true then I wouldn't want him anywhere near my business. I can't beleieve he could not have got players to sign for us on lower wages he just didn't seem bothered because it wasn't his money.
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Good on yer Superman - nice to see positivity.
I wish the fans could see you as an expensive signing rather than someone we inherited.
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I have to say I think that Ireland is quite capable of playing in a midfield two, if the balance of the rest of the side is right. Petrov is the one who "needs" a 3 man midfield in my opinion, as his legs are totally shot.
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I have to say I think that Ireland is quite capable of playing in a midfield two, if the balance of the rest of the side is right. Petrov is the one who "needs" a 3 man midfield in my opinion, as his legs are totally shot.
Maybe, but for me that two man midfield would need an extra solid right or left midfielders (not two wingers). We do not have these sort of players in the squad, I'm thinking of a Parlour, Houghton, Beckham type player.
So, yes it could work but the squad would need some major tweaking.
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I have to say I think that Ireland is quite capable of playing in a midfield two, if the balance of the rest of the side is right. Petrov is the one who "needs" a 3 man midfield in my opinion, as his legs are totally shot.
I think Houllier will sort Petrov out.
He's past his best as a creative midfielder and is not as compbative as is required.
Albrighton / Ireland / New midfielder or Reo-Coker / Downing / Young
That's how I'd do things.
I'd defiantely see Ireland as 'the future' if I was GH.
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It can't be called a good or bad deal for the club until a) we see how Ireland makes out, and b) who we spend the money on.
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I would play Ashley on Left Wing, Marc on Right wing, Superman in the hole, Nigel as defensive combative midfielder with Stuart Downing playing as playmaker role and Petrov can sit on the bench as cover.
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I really wouldn't like to see Downing in the middle. He goes vanishing too much, he'd offer less than Sidwell.
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the problem is that teams are walking through the midfield. Coker and Petrov cant keep up with play. At least Young tracks back, and even Downing over the last few games is pressurising possession. we miss Delph at this stage. Maybe Collins is a short term fix. Big, strong in the air, good tackler. Cuellar and Dunne CB, Warnock and Young as the left and right back (I cant believe the shit Warnock is getting at the moment, good tackler, hard worker, good passer and pace, L Young was the guy that cost us the goal, got dragged out of position, and a slip did for us, yet he gets the praise? wtf?), Collins, Downing, Young, Albrighton and Ireland. I suggest taking off Albrighton at 60 minutes, he is starting to blow then, thats because he works his ass off for the hour, take note Petrov. Agbonlahor up front. Ag needs games.
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There is no evidence to suggest Milner would have done anything other than play his heart out had he been denied a move to Citeh. As was evidenced in his one game this season against Wet Spam. A game that remains our one and only decent performance so far.
"When things are being said every day in the paper and wherever you go out and people are asking you what's happening and you don't know yourself, there's only one thing you can do, just concentrate on your football and that's all I did.
"I just kept doing as well as I could at Aston Villa and see what happened."
There is no reason at all for anyone to suggest he would have caused a problem if the board had decided after O'Neill left that the buying and selling of players should be left to a football manager.
Edit: If you can bring yourself to watch it, this is what he said about his take on being sold.
Clicky link to Sky Sports interview (http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_6334842,00.html)
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Some of the rumours on him leaving was he wanted cash only and not Ireland as part of the deal.
I still prefer Ireland ahead of Mcgeady for example on who the money was possibly being spent on. But hopefully he will start to play in his new position and alleviate the vague Sidwellian apprehensions I have from his perfomances so far.
I must say I barely noticed Ireland on Saturday, so in that instance the Sidwell comparison is quite apt.
We know there is a player there, in the right formation hopefully we'll get the full benefit of his talents.
Watching us recently has brought back horrid memories of DOL's last season, where (on occasion) we started brightly enough, but when the opposition upped the ante we'd struggle. Having a kit similar to that period doesn't help either.
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There is no evidence to suggest Milner would have done anything other than play his heart out had he been denied a move to Citeh. As was evidenced in his one game this season against Wet Spam. A game that remains our one and only decent performance so far.
"When things are being said every day in the paper and wherever you go out and people are asking you what's happening and you don't know yourself, there's only one thing you can do, just concentrate on your football and that's all I did.
"I just kept doing as well as I could at Aston Villa and see what happened."
There is no reason at all for anyone to suggest he would have caused a problem if the board had decided after O'Neill left that the buying and selling of players should be left to a football manager.
Edit: If you can bring yourself to watch it, this is what he said about his take on being sold.
Clicky link to Sky Sports interview (http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_6334842,00.html)
Sounds like the words of a man who doesn't want to lose his signing on fee.
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ireland needs a battling midfielder with him, it now shows how much milner carried petrov.... petrov needs to go. cant see him being captain much longer
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Ye agree. Now Milners incredible "engine" presence has gone Petrov has been exposed. Really think Collins could do a temporary job in there. Would win everything in the air and his distribution and timing in tackles is far better than Reo`s. Cuellar to cover plus would have a better height advatage for corners and set pieces ..........