Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: sfx412 on September 06, 2010, 09:16:25 AM
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Whoever gets the managers job isn't going to find it easy are they. The club if not in turmoil is very unsettled from the fans upwards, leaving the new man a hard PR excercise as well as all the usual stuff of getting to know your squad, changing all the football related stuff to your liking.
I don't feel the squad are good enough to maintain matters whilst the changes are instigated and I'd expect at least a season for the new man to adjust all and sundry, so I'm hoping for a top 10 finish and top 6 at best.
I can't see a flurry of transfers in in January maybe a few will leave, I can't see a dramatic change in style of play either initially just consolidation, building a sound base and the hope of an outside chance of a European qualification.
Good luck to whoever Randy appoints, he deserves at least this season or whats left of it to see how smart a choice it proves.
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Two derby defeats would be my prediction.
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More deliberately negative, sh*t-stirring crap from a poster whose username is a mix of letters and numbers would be my prediction.
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Win the League Cup, FA Cup, Premier, Chamionship, Leagues 1 and 2. Get admitted to the Champions Leaguue cos we are cool and win that as well. Sign Billy the Fish as goalkeeper.
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I expect Malcolm's knife will be in Gerard's back before the Christmas decorations come down.
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I expect a decent top eight finish and a good cup run as we lay the ground work for a forward move in the season to follow.
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I expect that the new manager will be able to at least match the old one as I read a zillion times on here that getting top 6 was relatively easy. O'Leary did it too, so it's no great achievement.
I don't really expect that, but those were the markers thrown down by MON's harshest critics.
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I expect 'certain people' to continue to twist facts to suit themselves and the legacy of the Blessed Martin.
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on a serious note, i would personally think that this season will be a transitional write off and for me, top ten would be welcomed... anything more, will be a bonus...
next season however, will be the acid test... the new managers transfer window, the new managers team, and an interesting time for the board in terms of backing the new manager...
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I also think a top 8 finish and maybe a cup.
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I think our expectations of whoever the new manager is should be based on him and NOT the old one. Love him or hate him, Martin's gone now and we need to move on.
I feel the players are there to have a more than decent season. The new man will want to change certain things and he'll be looking to evaluate the squad, so I'd be expecting to see us hovering somewhere between 6th-9th until Jan, but the key is to stay within striking distance, say 6 points, of the Euro places and most importantly 4th. Then it's a matter of what funds he's given and what he can do with them in the difficult Jan window. Get that right and our goals are higher, get it wrong and that 6th-9th place is where we stay.
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Top 8 finish, good run on one of the cups, some dodgy local derby results and a win at man Utd.
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I expect nothing less than a domestic treble.
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I expect 'certain people' to continue to twist facts to suit themselves and the legacy of the Blessed Martin.
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So now having a different opinion is twisting facts is it?
It's a cold hard fact that O'Neill finishing 6th was downplayed by some on here as a not much of an achievement. My view is that it was not as good as I'd hoped but all that we could expect given the amount spent and where we were when he took over. The new bloke will start from a much stronger position and, given the right backing, we should expect to see repeat challenges for the top 4 and the cups.
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Top 8 and hopefully a good draw in the cup.
Hopefully 4 points (atleast) off Small Heath and one or two decent additions in January, and to shift Beye, Davies, Sidwell and Heskey off the wage bill, and probably Carew and Friedel too. Giving Houllier the entire Summer to spend the Milner+Gardner money as well as the rest raised in order to build his squad.
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Top 8 and a good cup run! In response chris, maybe the mew man would have had a chance at the top 6 but it hasn't been helped by the ludicrous and selfish timing of o neills departure- if houllier doesn't make top 6 this season, don't blame him, point the finger instead at your blessed martin o neill!
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if houllier doesn't make top 6 this season, don't blame him, point the finger instead at your blessed martin o neill!
As I said before, we need to move on from this argument. Judge any new manager on his own merits with the squad he has to work with, which is still pretty strong, IMO.
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I expect 'certain people' to continue to twist facts to suit themselves and the legacy of the Blessed Martin.
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So now having a different opinion is twisting facts is it?
It's a cold hard fact that O'Neill finishing 6th was downplayed by some on here as a not much of an achievement. My view is that it was not as good as I'd hoped but all that we could expect given the amount spent and where we were when he took over. The new bloke will start from a much stronger position and, given the right backing, we should expect to see repeat challenges for the top 4 and the cups.
I don't know if you noticed, but the new bloke will have an awkward start time. Something to do with the previous manager, I believe.
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I expect a shit manager to be appointed.
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Whatever, put the handbags down lads. All I'm hoping is that we can leave ourselves in contention for a good finish in the PL and not get: 1, serious injuries and 2, knocked straight out of the cup. If we can hold it together until January then we have a chance to get those 3 players we haven't named in our PL squad. As long as we don't get any more FatGeordie style emabarrasments I'll not winge too much.
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5th in the league and a FA Cup win :)
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I expect a shit manager to be appointed.
I expect whoever is appointed to be viewed by some as shit as soon as he does something they don't like.
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I expect a shit manager to be appointed.
I expect whoever is appointed to be viewed by some as shit as soon as he does something they don't like.
If they already thought he was shit the new manager will be living down to their expectations as I expect thye won't tire of telling people.
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Expectations? Play some nice football, balls into feet, keep possession for a while, look like a team that believes in itself rather than one that plays the percentages, leave Villa Park with a warm feeling of deep satisfaction at watching a team that is knitted together and gels...Actually, a feeling like during and after the West Ham game a bit more often would be lovely, thanks.
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Top 10 finish!
League Cup Semi -Final
Victory over Man Citey!
Slaughter the Toon at Home
would make me a happy chappy
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I do expect the worse...
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I can feel the negativity! Now why don't we transmit this to the players at the next home game! :(
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If Houllier had been appointed in time for him to have a dabble in the transfer market and time to get the team playing to his style before the first game of the season then I absolutely would have expected sixth as a minimum.
As it is, the wonderful timing of O'Neill's departure means he has to hit the ground running with none of his own coaching team and arguably a slightly worse squad with Milner gone.
I would see sixth as a fine achievement this season and won't be too surprised to see us around eighth, I'd hope he could crack on after that though.
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As things are: 9th-12th. Early cup exits. Probably good at home, shite away.
With Houllier: 6th-8th. Good cup run, maybe a trophy. Potentially more, dependant on January. I'd hope that his appointment would be enough to satisfy our bigger players, or more specifically, Ash Young.
Am expecting an improvement in technique and organisation. Expecting our training to improve, and for starters, Dunney and Gabby will be made to shed weight.
We've got some bloody good players. Some we've not seen nearly the best of yet. Houllier knows the game, and may be able to get the best out of them. We'll see.
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6th would be an over-achievement (like it was last year).
8th is more realistic.
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Is it not fair to expect little from the new man, Initially, partly because of the poor timing of the previous managers exit, his smallish squad.
The huge spend used to achieve it may, it seem, be restricting what further spend is available, certainly while we continue to have large wage earners on board.
If Mon's major achievement as Chris suggests was 6th after such a big spend and 4 seasons on the job, I'd assume with no spend for some time, 6th really would be an achievement and one the Blessed Mon obviously didn't fancy taking on.
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I predict it will surpass expectations for some and be disappointing for others.
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I predict it will surpass expectations for some and be disappointing for others.
Very true :)
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Top eight will be a reasonable shout. Potentially pushing top 6 if a little money is spent in January. Hopefully the exit of MON means we might remedy our awful post christmas form of the last couple of years.
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As the O'Neill Hate Brigade constantly informed us that sixth wasn't good enough = failure, presumably the new management team will have a minimum target of fifth place.
Some good cup runs would be nice -though even here, some regard a final appearance as another sign of 'failure'. Their definitions obviously don't match mine.
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I expect Malcolm's knife will be in Gerard's back before the Christmas decorations come down.
Far from it. Malcolm HAS to like Houllier. It's pre-programmed. He will think the sun shines out of his arse.
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If Houllier is appointed, I think he will make a lot of changes -- tactically, organizational and structural -- and this will probably lead to some disruption. I believe there is some risk that this will bring underwhelming performances and results in the short term (but hopefully benefits in the longer term). My guess: somewhere between 6th and 10th -- depending on how long the team need to adjust to the new manager (and his staff).
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If Houllier is appointed, I think he will make a lot of changes -- tactically, organizational and structural -- and this will probably lead to some disruption. I believe there is some risk that this will bring underwhelming performances and results in the short term (but hopefully benefits in the longer term). My guess: somewhere between 6th and 10th -- depending on how long the team need to adjust to the new manager (and his staff).
Since one of the criteria for the new manager is supposed to be how they'd get the best out of the current set up I guess we could hope the disruption will be mimimal.
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I think scoring goals will be our biggest challenge. With Houllier we'll probably have many 0-0 draws and I expect us to finish in the bottom half. Cup runs need the luck of the draw so who knows?
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Everton is our par.. finish above them, we've done well. Finish below them we've finished +1.
The top three will be: Chelsea/Man Citeh/Man Utd
Followed by: Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs.
Then: Us, Everton...and the rest.
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Everton is our par.. finish above them, we've done well. Finish below them we've finished +1.
The top three will be: Chelsea/Man Citeh/Man Utd
Followed by: Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs.
Then: Us, Everton...and the rest.
I'd say the Man City team is still gelling and not top 3 yet. I'd be suprised at us being higher than 6th, but it's still doable, but toally gutted if lower than 8th, which will be a big failure.
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We will win both domestic cups and finish 3rd - Woy Hodgson gets the sack as Liverpool implode just avoiding releagtion despite reaching the Europa Cup Final.
Houllier and Thompson depart from Villa to rejoin Liverpool.
MON says sorry to Randy and returns with Robertson et al - the circle of life goes on
:o
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I think it's too early to be making any concrete predictions, other than that Man U and Chelsea will be in the top 2 or 3. Question marks exist against all the other usual suspects:-
Man City - how and when will they gel?
Liverpool - Has Roy actually improved the side that finished 7th?
Arsenal - still the same weaknesses as last few years and star player doesn't want to be there.
Spurs - remains to be seen how they cope with the double demands of CL and PL football
Everton - stated poorly again
That's whay we can and need to stay in the mix until January, where you have to imagine we'll be quite active in the market.
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An improved home record. Made a winning (if not entirely convincing) start at home without the previous manager around.
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An improved home record. Made a winning (if not entirely convincing) start at home without the previous manager around.
Yet that will only benefit us if we can do it AND maintain our away record. And without the previous manager around we got hammered in an away game we probably wouldn't have lost!
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I expect a decent top eight finish and a good cup run as we lay the ground work for a forward move in the season to follow.
This. And hopefully an exciting new signing or two in January.
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Under MON we improved season on season points wise, i would have expected that trend to continue.
However now i expect us to finish with less points than last season, but that will be off set with a nice long cup run, with at least one Wembley appearance.
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Given the circumstances, it is correct that expectations should be adjusted. I don't think the top 6 is realistic.
As long as he gets them playing with flexibility and imagination, and we are not subjected to any more humiliating defeats, I will be happy to write off this season as one of consolidation.
I think he'll make a decent fist of it, myself.
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The Bloke Behind Me for the last three seasons had a catch phrase: "I've got a bad feeling about this..." and he spouted pessimism and negativity for roughly 90 minutes of every game. Thankfully he's now moved or buggered off, and I can now go to games without wanting to chin the miserable bastard.
I expect to enjoy myself a bit more at Villa Park and I'm enjoying the post-MON era immensely as we've had two exciting home wins, and I haven't been to any of the other games.
7th in the league, quarter finals of the cups, a few new foreign signings, and no return of the flat capped misery guts.
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I'd love another top 7 finish. I would be delighted with that. And then we can improve further in the summer.
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Is it not fair to expect little from the new man, Initially, partly because of the poor timing of the previous managers exit, his smallish squad.
The huge spend used to achieve it may, it seem, be restricting what further spend is available, certainly while we continue to have large wage earners on board.
If Mon's major achievement as Chris suggests was 6th after such a big spend and 4 seasons on the job, I'd assume with no spend for some time, 6th really would be an achievement and one the Blessed Mon obviously didn't fancy taking on.
It doesn't matter how often you say it, it still won't be true. £60m net spend on the playing squad going into our 5th season under Randy Lerner is not a huge spend, it is a below average spend for a top 8 team. Just as our wage bill is not high for top 8 team, it is below average. The area of finance where we have a serious deficiency compared to the other top 8 teams is in revenue and/or investment.
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The Bloke Behind Me for the last three seasons had a catch phrase: "I've got a bad feeling about this..." and he spouted pessimism and negativity for roughly 90 minutes of every game. Thankfully he's now moved or buggered off, and I can now go to games without wanting to chin the miserable bastard.
I expect to enjoy myself a bit more at Villa Park and I'm enjoying the post-MON era immensely as we've had two exciting home wins, and I haven't been to any of the other games.
7th in the league, quarter finals of the cups, a few new foreign signings, and no return of the flat capped misery guts.
Just a thought, why did you put up with it for 3 seasons?
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Is it not fair to expect little from the new man, Initially, partly because of the poor timing of the previous managers exit, his smallish squad.
The huge spend used to achieve it may, it seem, be restricting what further spend is available, certainly while we continue to have large wage earners on board.
If Mon's major achievement as Chris suggests was 6th after such a big spend and 4 seasons on the job, I'd assume with no spend for some time, 6th really would be an achievement and one the Blessed Mon obviously didn't fancy taking on.
It doesn't matter how often you say it, it still won't be true. £60m net spend on the playing squad going into our 5th season under Randy Lerner is not a huge spend, it is a below average spend for a top 8 team. Just as our wage bill is not high for top 8 team, it is below average. The area of finance where we have a serious deficiency compared to the other top 8 teams is in revenue and/or investment.
We spend less than the rest, we pay less than the rest and our owner invests less than the rest. Keep saying it often enough and you might get someone else to believe it.
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Top 6 finish.
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The Bloke Behind Me for the last three seasons had a catch phrase: "I've got a bad feeling about this..." and he spouted pessimism and negativity for roughly 90 minutes of every game. Thankfully he's now moved or buggered off, and I can now go to games without wanting to chin the miserable bastard.
I expect to enjoy myself a bit more at Villa Park and I'm enjoying the post-MON era immensely as we've had two exciting home wins, and I haven't been to any of the other games.
7th in the league, quarter finals of the cups, a few new foreign signings, and no return of the flat capped misery guts.
And I hated your ugly haircut. ;D
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The Bloke Behind Me for the last three seasons had a catch phrase: "I've got a bad feeling about this..." and he spouted pessimism and negativity for roughly 90 minutes of every game. Thankfully he's now moved or buggered off, and I can now go to games without wanting to chin the miserable bastard.
I expect to enjoy myself a bit more at Villa Park and I'm enjoying the post-MON era immensely as we've had two exciting home wins, and I haven't been to any of the other games.
7th in the league, quarter finals of the cups, a few new foreign signings, and no return of the flat capped misery guts.
Just a thought, why did you put up with it for 3 seasons?
I tried to move, but there's 4 of us sit together which makes getting good seats awkward.
I did have a word with him to try and persuade him to go after a particularly bad game when I lost my rag a little... maybe it worked 8)
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An improved home record. Made a winning (if not entirely convincing) start at home without the previous manager around.
Yet that will only benefit us if we can do it AND maintain our away record. And without the previous manager around we got hammered in an away game we probably wouldn't have lost!
Yes, the previous manager used to like to save the away day hammerings until March at least.
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as we're a top 5 club , id expect nothing other than top 5 .
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We have finished 6th three years on the trot..
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We have finished 6th three years on the trot..
Which a few considered as failure.
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It doesn't matter how often you say it, it still won't be true. £60m net spend on the playing squad going into our 5th season under Randy Lerner is not a huge spend, it is a below average spend for a top 8 team.
I thought we’d spent approximately £120 million gross and £80 million net and are the third highest spenders overall in the past three or four seasons, with a bigger wage bill than both Everton and Spurs?
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Low.
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Man... we haven't even got our new manager in yet and people are already deciding where we're going to finish under him (Houllier). He hasn't even officially been appointed yet, nevermind him being in charge for 1 match yet. For Christ's sake, the negativity around here stinks. People are forgetting that we were only 2 games away from finishing 4th last season and now all of a sudden people like to think they know more than others saying we'll finish somewhere between 8-12. How many Villa fans expected us to finish above Liverpool last season, how many so called ''football pundits'' didn't expect us to finish in the top 6 again?
People panic far too much, the season is only 3 games in, patience ppl.
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We have finished 6th three years on the trot..
Which a few considered as failure.
One or two, most of those perceived as anti-MON however saw it as a sign that he had taken us as far as he could rather than failure.
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We have finished 6th three years on the trot..
Which a few considered as failure.
One or two, most of those perceived as anti-MON however saw it as a sign that he had taken us as far as he could rather than failure.
Who believed finishing 6th was a failure? I agree there were people who said MON had taken us as far as he could, but I've never came across anyone that has said it was a failure. Far from it.
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Is it not fair to expect little from the new man, Initially, partly because of the poor timing of the previous managers exit, his smallish squad.
The huge spend used to achieve it may, it seem, be restricting what further spend is available, certainly while we continue to have large wage earners on board.
If Mon's major achievement as Chris suggests was 6th after such a big spend and 4 seasons on the job, I'd assume with no spend for some time, 6th really would be an achievement and one the Blessed Mon obviously didn't fancy taking on.
It doesn't matter how often you say it, it still won't be true. £60m net spend on the playing squad going into our 5th season under Randy Lerner is not a huge spend, it is a below average spend for a top 8 team. Just as our wage bill is not high for top 8 team, it is below average. The area of finance where we have a serious deficiency compared to the other top 8 teams is in revenue and/or investment.
We spend less than the rest, we pay less than the rest and our owner invests less than the rest. Keep saying it often enough and you might get someone else to believe it.
If I kept saying that or anything like it you might have a point but what I said was entirely different.
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It doesn't matter how often you say it, it still won't be true. £60m net spend on the playing squad going into our 5th season under Randy Lerner is not a huge spend, it is a below average spend for a top 8 team.
I thought we’d spent approximately £120 million gross and £80 million net and are the third highest spenders overall in the past three or four seasons, with a bigger wage bill than both Everton and Spurs?
He's using the Milner money to make us look like paupers, which is not the case.
Expectations?
Putting aside the fact that we unlike every other club in the league have failed to strength our squad this summer, I still think we can have an good season. What will be interesting to see is whether our flair players can grow, stepping it up a level. I'm expecting us to be more organised in defence and midfield but I'm not sure what will happen when we stop relying on speed as our only attacking outlet. I would hope we'll start scoring goals from corners and free kicks, something that ended when Laursen left. We really have been shocking in failing to take advantage of our set piece opportunities.
As for our final position, whilst sixth was the minimum we should have expected these last few years, it's only fair to say fifth was probably the best we could have realistically have hoped for. Now with a much stronger Man City and Spurs, Liverpool unlikely to have another disasterous season, not to mention the possibility of Everton not having an injury crisis yet again, it will be a real battle to reach sixth spot. That's not to say it can't be done but it's going to be tough. I'm going for 7th spot, which will be an achievement considering the summer we've had but if we can get one or two quality players during the January window, sixth is still a possibility. The most important thing is we remain up there with the group fighting for 4th spot whilst improving as a team throughout the season.
I thought we’d spent approximately £120 million gross and £80 million net and are the third highest spenders overall in the past three or four seasons, with a bigger wage bill than both Everton and Spurs?
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I expect Malcolm's knife will be in Gerard's back before the Christmas decorations come down.
Far from it. Malcolm HAS to like Houllier. It's pre-programmed. He will think the sun shines out of his arse.
Why do I have to like him?
What a puerile comment
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It doesn't matter how often you say it, it still won't be true. £60m net spend on the playing squad going into our 5th season under Randy Lerner is not a huge spend, it is a below average spend for a top 8 team. Just as our wage bill is not high for top 8 team, it is below average. The area of finance where we have a serious deficiency compared to the other top 8 teams is in revenue and/or investment.
Do you really believe that ?
I see where the General is coming from when he says some fans don't listen to anything or believe anything he says.
I also wonder if I was the only one who ever criticised what Mon did
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I expect Malcolm's knife will be in Gerard's back before the Christmas decorations come down.
Far from it. Malcolm HAS to like Houllier. It's pre-programmed. He will think the sun shines out of his arse.
Why do I have to like him?
What a puerile comment
Mac's comment is based a theoretical analysis of your substantial writings in various internet media, published in another forum as "Malcolm's Dialectical Method: Teleological Desperation on the Cusp of Madness".
This theorem postulates a clear dialectical progression of thought verging on religious obsession in which Herbert is Satan, and John Gregory is an avenging angel. Events thereafter see subsequent managers as agents for the devil or the deity. DoL was thus a jolly good chap because he followed GT, who was probably the most satanic actor in this schema, and close to the devil himself, HDE.
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At least a semi in one of the cups and a top 8 finish with a double over the blues. Which to be fair is what I'd have expected before the turmoil...
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This theorem postulates a clear dialectical progression of thought verging on religious obsession in which Herbert is Satan, and John Gregory is an avenging angel. Events thereafter see subsequent managers as agents for the devil or the deity. DoL was thus a jolly good chap because he followed GT, who was probably the most satanic actor in this schema, and close to the devil himself, HDE.
Why thank you again, my lovely minute minded troll xxx
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It doesn't matter how often you say it, it still won't be true. £60m net spend on the playing squad going into our 5th season under Randy Lerner is not a huge spend, it is a below average spend for a top 8 team. Just as our wage bill is not high for top 8 team, it is below average. The area of finance where we have a serious deficiency compared to the other top 8 teams is in revenue and/or investment.
Do you really believe that ?
I see where the General is coming from when he says some fans don't listen to anything or believe anything he says.
I also wonder if I was the only one who ever criticised what Mon did
Do I still believe what? The amounts of money we spend and how that relates to the other clubs in the top 8 isn't an article faith, it is factual, objective information available to all.
Spending £120m over four years is a huge amount of money but isn't a huge amount relative to spurs who have spent more than that in only 2 years. Belief doesn't come into it.
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I'm just hoping we continue to compete with the top teams otherwise Ash is a goner.
Spurs have already put the idea of leaving in his head, so if we have a 'write off' season then he'd be off.
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It doesn't matter how often you say it, it still won't be true. £60m net spend on the playing squad going into our 5th season under Randy Lerner is not a huge spend, it is a below average spend for a top 8 team.
I thought we’d spent approximately £120 million gross and £80 million net and are the third highest spenders overall in the past three or four seasons, with a bigger wage bill than both Everton and Spurs?
He's using the Milner money to make us look like paupers, which is not the case.
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I was using the actual amount of money we have spent in a conversation about the amount of money we have spent. That seems logical to me.
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Avoid relegation ;)
Only kiddin. I was kind of lookin forward to the season and I had come around to the idea of keane and maybe Piennar or someone to play in midfield and I was hoping Milner would stay.
The Mon fucked off and I was kind of pleased but also worried about the situation were in now, Ie who we going to come in and manage. The candidates were poor & If we do get Houllier I think he is the best of a bad bunch.
However we needed to strengthen before start of season and we didn't. It's obvious even to a blind man we needed a striker. We now can't till Jan at earliest. Maybe we can get a loan deal but I fear its going to take time to ajust to a new man/methods. I hope we can get top 8 and a cup run but its gonna be tough.
I just hope the whole season isn't going to be a complete right off as I kind of fear now.
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It doesn't matter how often you say it, it still won't be true. £60m net spend on the playing squad going into our 5th season under Randy Lerner is not a huge spend, it is a below average spend for a top 8 team.
I thought we’d spent approximately £120 million gross and £80 million net and are the third highest spenders overall in the past three or four seasons, with a bigger wage bill than both Everton and Spurs?
He's using the Milner money to make us look like paupers, which is not the case.
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I was using the actual amount of money we have spent in a conversation about the amount of money we have spent. That seems logical to me.
Logical would be acknowledging the fact we never had the chance to spend this summer, thus your line "£60m net spend on the playing squad going into our 5th season under Randy Lerner is not a huge spend, it is a below average spend for a top 8 team" being absolute bollocks, as well you know or are you going to suggest that the £20m Milner money would never have been available?
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I am expecting the unexpected.
By that I mean that the predictability of MON has now gone so we have the randomness of Houllier to look forward to. Different formations. New favourites and outcasts within the squad. Transfer speculation with foreign exotic sounding players. Basically new stuff to talk about on H&V.
On the pitch I reckon an 8-10th place finish.
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It's taken so long to employee a new manager, that I would expect us to do very well, as surely the reason it has taken so long to bring in a new manager is that such a good manager was hard to find.
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I think Dante has got it right, expect the unexpected! After the West Ham game, the buzz, good feeling, the confidence erm the 6-0 thrashing.
Well, were sat in fourth, our new manager has his work cut out. We have a very good squad, so he has a head start from when MON took over.
Yep I'm going to expect the unexpected.
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If Houllier can bring in some unknown French or whereever amazing striker on loan and a similiar tough holding mid fielder think we could hold onto another 6th spot ........
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6th would be an over-achievement (like it was last year).
Was it? Par for the course I'd say.
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Some times out of the darkest day comes the light. I'm ignorantly optimistic 8) I see us hovering in the 5-7 spot much of the season then managing to back into the 4th spot down the stretch! I predict that ultimately there will be turmoil in the Man City camp and a league slide for Spurs. The door will be open for Villa, the team who's coach fucked off right before the season, the team who were blown out by newly promoted Newcastle early in the season, the team who hired the 63 year old "best man" of the least inspiring list of candidates to manage the club. I predict Hollywood ending. Then I wake up and realize we are 8th. But damn that dream was sweet.
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I'd take 8th-10th rather than 6th-8th if we could actually play a bit of football this season.
I don't really know what Houllier's "style" is likely to be, but I find it hard to believe it won't be better than the soporific experience which was watching MON's Plan A at home the last two years.
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It doesn't matter how often you say it, it still won't be true. £60m net spend on the playing squad going into our 5th season under Randy Lerner is not a huge spend, it is a below average spend for a top 8 team. Just as our wage bill is not high for top 8 team, it is below average. The area of finance where we have a serious deficiency compared to the other top 8 teams is in revenue and/or investment.
Do you really believe that ?
I see where the General is coming from when he says some fans don't listen to anything or believe anything he says.
I also wonder if I was the only one who ever criticised what Mon did
Do I still believe what? The amounts of money we spend and how that relates to the other clubs in the top 8 isn't an article faith, it is factual, objective information available to all.
Spending £120m over four years is a huge amount of money but isn't a huge amount relative to spurs who have spent more than that in only 2 years. Belief doesn't come into it.
I know you stubbornly refuse to understand the importance of the word "net", but you can not ignore it.
Spurs "net" spending in the last five seasons is 90m.
If you're going to use figures like them spending 87m in 08/09 then you also need to acknowledge the fact that they raised 67m in sales that year, too.
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6th-8th.
As for Cups, one thing for sure is we won't get knocked out in the 3rd round.
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It doesn't matter how often you say it, it still won't be true. £60m net spend on the playing squad going into our 5th season under Randy Lerner is not a huge spend, it is a below average spend for a top 8 team. Just as our wage bill is not high for top 8 team, it is below average. The area of finance where we have a serious deficiency compared to the other top 8 teams is in revenue and/or investment.
Do you really believe that ?
I see where the General is coming from when he says some fans don't listen to anything or believe anything he says.
I also wonder if I was the only one who ever criticised what Mon did
Do I still believe what? The amounts of money we spend and how that relates to the other clubs in the top 8 isn't an article faith, it is factual, objective information available to all.
Spending £120m over four years is a huge amount of money but isn't a huge amount relative to spurs who have spent more than that in only 2 years. Belief doesn't come into it.
I know you stubbornly refuse to understand the importance of the word "net", but you can not ignore it.
Spurs "net" spending in the last five seasons is 90m.
If you're going to use figures like them spending 87m in 08/09 then you also need to acknowledge the fact that they raised 67m in sales that year, too.
Imposing timescales on the spending is an artificial limitation. It's the amount spent on the squad available for the manager to choose from that is the only really valid measure.
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It doesn't matter how often you say it, it still won't be true. £60m net spend on the playing squad going into our 5th season under Randy Lerner is not a huge spend, it is a below average spend for a top 8 team. Just as our wage bill is not high for top 8 team, it is below average. The area of finance where we have a serious deficiency compared to the other top 8 teams is in revenue and/or investment.
Do you really believe that ?
I see where the General is coming from when he says some fans don't listen to anything or believe anything he says.
I also wonder if I was the only one who ever criticised what Mon did
Do I still believe what? The amounts of money we spend and how that relates to the other clubs in the top 8 isn't an article faith, it is factual, objective information available to all.
Spending £120m over four years is a huge amount of money but isn't a huge amount relative to spurs who have spent more than that in only 2 years. Belief doesn't come into it.
I know you stubbornly refuse to understand the importance of the word "net", but you can not ignore it.
Spurs "net" spending in the last five seasons is 90m.
If you're going to use figures like them spending 87m in 08/09 then you also need to acknowledge the fact that they raised 67m in sales that year, too.
I understand net spend perfectly well thanks. I simply chose to post a gross spend example in this instance. I could have used a net spend comparison just as well and the conclusion in relation to Malcolm's "huge spend" is just the same
You've chosen to highlight the net spend figure, which is fine. The fact that Spurs whose squad were in 5th on 65 points five years ago, have spent £90m net (I'll assume your figure is correct) and Villa whose squad were 16th on 42 points five years ago, have spent £60m net, is another good example to demonstrate that it isn't appropriate to categorise Villa's spending as huge. Not when Spurs are spending 50% more.
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But aren’t you comparing our net spend with Spurs’ gross spend? If you’re using the same figures as Paulie is, then surely its £60 million to £20 million plus whatever they spent last season?
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It doesn't matter how often you say it, it still won't be true. £60m net spend on the playing squad going into our 5th season under Randy Lerner is not a huge spend, it is a below average spend for a top 8 team. Just as our wage bill is not high for top 8 team, it is below average. The area of finance where we have a serious deficiency compared to the other top 8 teams is in revenue and/or investment.
Do you really believe that ?
I see where the General is coming from when he says some fans don't listen to anything or believe anything he says.
I also wonder if I was the only one who ever criticised what Mon did
Do I still believe what? The amounts of money we spend and how that relates to the other clubs in the top 8 isn't an article faith, it is factual, objective information available to all.
Spending £120m over four years is a huge amount of money but isn't a huge amount relative to spurs who have spent more than that in only 2 years. Belief doesn't come into it.
I know you stubbornly refuse to understand the importance of the word "net", but you can not ignore it.
Spurs "net" spending in the last five seasons is 90m.
If you're going to use figures like them spending 87m in 08/09 then you also need to acknowledge the fact that they raised 67m in sales that year, too.
I understand net spend perfectly well thanks. I simply chose to post a gross spend example in this instance. I could have used a net spend comparison just as well and the conclusion in relation to Malcolm's "huge spend" is just the same
You've chosen to highlight the net spend figure, which is fine. The fact that Spurs whose squad were in 5th on 65 points five years ago, have spent £90m net (I'll assume your figure is correct) and Villa whose squad were 16th on 42 points five years ago, have spent £60m net, is another good example to demonstrate that it isn't appropriate to categorise Villa's spending as huge. Not when Spurs are spending 50% more.
You chose to ignore the net because it sounds far more dramatic that way.
You mention Spurs spent 50 percent more net, but this ignores the harsh reality that, this summer, we didn't have a manager in place to do the spending - he'd left at the point at which he would usually start to spend.
As for Spurs squad being 5th five years ago, how about that same squad being 11th 3 years ago? Or 8th two years ago (below both us and Fulham)?
And why just Spurs, how does our spending stack up against Everton's?
There will always be someone spending more money than us, that's a fact, but to pretend we haven't spent a lot of money in a period when we've found ourselves amongst the highest spenders in Europe seems a bit, well, wrong.
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Its a bit of a red herring to suggest that we didn't spend because MON only starts doing business at the end of the window. you can be assured that lots of ground work will have been done on potential signings and ciontact would have been made. The board used the resignation and delayed naming a manager until after the window recisely because they didn't want to spend any money. Why else?
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Either way, the argument over spend only really scratches the surface.
Looking at players like Young, Gabby, Ireland, Downing and Albrighton and then comparing them with what Liverpool, Everton and Spurs have and ask yourself if they’re as creative as their counterparts and I’d say the answer is yes. We have a lot of good players, we haven’t scored enough goals in recent yeas, but nonetheless I’d still expect us to compete very strongly with the above-mentioned teams. Particularly with the solid platform that we have at the back, Newcastle aside.
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Its a bit of a red herring to suggest that we didn't spend because MON only starts doing business at the end of the window. you can be assured that lots of ground work will have been done on potential signings and ciontact would have been made. The board used the resignation and delayed naming a manager until after the window recisely because they didn't want to spend any money. Why else?
I’d say that the board’s obvious weakness, they don’t have a Steve Stride on board and their naivety shined through. I don’t believe that there was a deliberate policy to thwart any spending and neither do I believe that Lerner has stopped funding.
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The problem is the centre of midfield. We have no protection in there and many think Reo-Coker is the answer to a 3 year-old question.
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After all the nonsense of the last month, I'd be happy if we finish in the top eight. Reaching the semi-final of a cup (or beyond) would be a bonus.
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Its a bit of a red herring to suggest that we didn't spend because MON only starts doing business at the end of the window. you can be assured that lots of ground work will have been done on potential signings and ciontact would have been made. The board used the resignation and delayed naming a manager until after the window recisely because they didn't want to spend any money. Why else?
Because it is difficult to find, convince and apppoint a new manager from a standing start in three weeks?
IF they'd delayed announcing anything just till the window closed, how come we still haven't appointed a manager over a week after?
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Its a bit of a red herring to suggest that we didn't spend because MON only starts doing business at the end of the window. you can be assured that lots of ground work will have been done on potential signings and ciontact would have been made. The board used the resignation and delayed naming a manager until after the window recisely because they didn't want to spend any money. Why else?
I’d say that the board’s obvious weakness, they don’t have a Steve Stride on board and their naivety shined through. I don’t believe that there was a deliberate policy to thwart any spending and neither do I believe that Lerner has stopped funding.
I don't think Randy has stopped funding but it was a convenient time for them to make sure there was no outlay but received money over the summer. Otherwise they would have made sure the manager was in place before the transfer window had have closed and one or two players came in - even on loan. It not as if 3 weeks isn't enough time.
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I think a central three is a solution to that issue, at least while we await the return of Delph and the coming of January.
In reponse to your other post, I don’t think there was anything convenient about it at all. I think they were as shocked as the rest of us and unfortunately completely unprepared for an immediate response. This is where an old hand would have been worth his weight in gold for the experience of dealing with these situations.
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If they'd wanted to they could have given MacDonald authority to make transfers. That they didn't suggests that they weren't altogether unhappy at the opportunity not to spend anything this summer.
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In reponse to your other post, I don’t think there was anything convenient about it at all. I think they were as shocked as the rest of us and unfortunately completely unprepared for an immediate response. This is where an old hand would have been worth his weight in gold for the experience of dealing with these situations.
Absolutely agree with both the points here.
I would imagine "convenient" is the very last word they'd use for the events of the last few weeks, and an old (football) hand there from the start would have helped.
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I think the idea of comparing us to whichever team you like works best from the point where Randy and Martin came in. Yes, we couldn't have spent much more THIS summer, but then we also had a short period when they first came to get people in, when Petrov alone was recruited. Everton are a good comparison, but there is also the fact that they've had a patient build up of their squad over the eight(?) years Moyes has been there, spending heavily on one player each summer.
We've spent a lot of money and nobody could argue with that. Yet we haven't spent the sort of money where CL qualification could be viewed as what we SHOULD be achieving, which I also hope nobody would argue with.
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Its a bit of a red herring to suggest that we didn't spend because MON only starts doing business at the end of the window. you can be assured that lots of ground work will have been done on potential signings and ciontact would have been made. The board used the resignation and delayed naming a manager until after the window recisely because they didn't want to spend any money. Why else?
Because it is difficult to find, convince and apppoint a new manager from a standing start in three weeks?
IF they'd delayed announcing anything just till the window closed, how come we still haven't appointed a manager over a week after?
Can't see why it should be a standing start but that's another point.
because the time of the year dictates the importance on getting a decision made as soon as possible. If you seel an important player and buy no other players in then you are gambling on the team up to January. If it goes wrong then we run the risk of Ash going in the summer if he thinks we're going nowhere. If the board/Randy wants to protect his investment then he must see the need to have brought some players in, and to do that get a manager in.
We are still a decent job - find out who wants it, interview, make a decision. It seems that theie dithering was based on seeing if Kev Mac could do it. 6-0 told everyone but them, no. That cost us another week. They also said that they wouldn't buy in the market until a manager was announced and then that they wouldn't do it until after the transfer window closed.
Why would they do that unless they were happy to see no new faces in? Its was done, in my opinion, to avoid buying anyone this summer. The reason O'Neill left.
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If they'd wanted to they could have given MacDonald authority to make transfers. That they didn't suggests that they weren't altogether unhappy at the opportunity not to spend anything this summer.
Hang on, though, Chris, weren't you in the "these things take time to sort out, you dont just wave the money and the players come" camp when it was MON taking his time to complete transfers, but now you reckon KMac could have got them under way and sorted in three weeks?
Maybe we'd already talked to players who wanted to come but changed their mind when our managerial situation changed, thus leaving us at square one?
The only thing we can say without any doubt on transfers is that the Milner deal, which went through after MON left, included a player to make up, what, 40 percent of the deal value.
That doesn't sound like a board who were suddenly happy not to be spending anything, or surely they'd have insisted on the cash.
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Its a bit of a red herring to suggest that we didn't spend because MON only starts doing business at the end of the window. you can be assured that lots of ground work will have been done on potential signings and ciontact would have been made. The board used the resignation and delayed naming a manager until after the window recisely because they didn't want to spend any money. Why else?
Because it is difficult to find, convince and apppoint a new manager from a standing start in three weeks?
IF they'd delayed announcing anything just till the window closed, how come we still haven't appointed a manager over a week after?
Can't see why it should be a standing start but that's another point.
because the time of the year dictates the importance on getting a decision made as soon as possible. If you seel an important player and buy no other players in then you are gambling on the team up to January. If it goes wrong then we run the risk of Ash going in the summer if he thinks we're going nowhere. If the board/Randy wants to protect his investment then he must see the need to have brought some players in, and to do that get a manager in.
We are still a decent job - find out who wants it, interview, make a decision. It seems that theie dithering was based on seeing if Kev Mac could do it. 6-0 told everyone but them, no. That cost us another week. They also said that they wouldn't buy in the market until a manager was announced and then that they wouldn't do it until after the transfer window closed.
Why would they do that unless they were happy to see no new faces in? Its was done, in my opinion, to avoid buying anyone this summer. The reason O'Neill left.
The time of year might make it more important to get a manager in quickly, but it doesn't change the fact that it is time consuming. In fact, far from it, the time of year makes it even harder to get a manager in.
It's difficult to persuade managers to leave posts when the season is starting at the end of the week, certainly harder than at the end of a season.
And, as I said above, we did buy someone this summer - Ireland. Why wouldn't the board have insisted on cash only for Milner?
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And, as I said above, we did buy someone this summer - Ireland. Why wouldn't the board have insisted on cash only for Milner?
Just playing Devils Advocate, but might it not be a case of the deal being set up by MON and they went with it? Or the £16m being enough for what they wanted/needed and deciding to take the player instead to not overly weaken the ream? Or simply as the fans would have been in uproar if they had taken straight cash?
As I said in another thread, there are too many ifs, buts and maybes to draw any meaningful conclusions as to the boards intents from the dealings of this summer. So they get the benefit of the doubt, which is the least they deserve given past player investment, and we see in January/summer 2011.
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8th or above
Derby wins
Good cup run
Nice football and a bit of confidence in the team
Oh yeah and Gabby to hit 20 ;)
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It doesn't matter how often you say it, it still won't be true. £60m net spend on the playing squad going into our 5th season under Randy Lerner is not a huge spend, it is a below average spend for a top 8 team. Just as our wage bill is not high for top 8 team, it is below average. The area of finance where we have a serious deficiency compared to the other top 8 teams is in revenue and/or investment.
Do you really believe that ?
I see where the General is coming from when he says some fans don't listen to anything or believe anything he says.
I also wonder if I was the only one who ever criticised what Mon did
Do I still believe what? The amounts of money we spend and how that relates to the other clubs in the top 8 isn't an article faith, it is factual, objective information available to all.
Spending £120m over four years is a huge amount of money but isn't a huge amount relative to spurs who have spent more than that in only 2 years. Belief doesn't come into it.
I know you stubbornly refuse to understand the importance of the word "net", but you can not ignore it.
Spurs "net" spending in the last five seasons is 90m.
If you're going to use figures like them spending 87m in 08/09 then you also need to acknowledge the fact that they raised 67m in sales that year, too.
I understand net spend perfectly well thanks. I simply chose to post a gross spend example in this instance. I could have used a net spend comparison just as well and the conclusion in relation to Malcolm's "huge spend" is just the same
You've chosen to highlight the net spend figure, which is fine. The fact that Spurs whose squad were in 5th on 65 points five years ago, have spent £90m net (I'll assume your figure is correct) and Villa whose squad were 16th on 42 points five years ago, have spent £60m net, is another good example to demonstrate that it isn't appropriate to categorise Villa's spending as huge. Not when Spurs are spending 50% more.
You chose to ignore the net because it sounds far more dramatic that way.
You mention Spurs spent 50 percent more net, but this ignores the harsh reality that, this summer, we didn't have a manager in place to do the spending - he'd left at the point at which he would usually start to spend.
As for Spurs squad being 5th five years ago, how about that same squad being 11th 3 years ago? Or 8th two years ago (below both us and Fulham)?
And why just Spurs, how does our spending stack up against Everton's?
There will always be someone spending more money than us, that's a fact, but to pretend we haven't spent a lot of money in a period when we've found ourselves amongst the highest spenders in Europe seems a bit, well, wrong.
I'm sorry, you're getting twisted up your own arse. The initial point I made to Malcolm was that our transfer spending was not a "huge spend" when compared to the average spend of the top 8 clubs. It doesn't matter which figure you choose to focus on, be it gross spend, net spend or wages, the conclusion is the same. Ours has not been a "huge spend" in comparison to the top 8 clubs in the Premier League.
I used an example comparison against Spurs gross spend because it seemed reasonable to do so. I didn't use the extremes of Man City's gross spend or Chelsea's wages or indeed Everton's net spend. I used Spurs gross spend, precisely because it wasn't an extreme example. The important point in my post was that our spending is not huge, it is lower than average compared to the 7 teams we are expecting our club to compete with. That's a fact, like it or lump it.
You're now having a go at me for doing a similar comparison of the Spurs net spend over 5 years, when i only did so because you brought the subject up. WTF is that all about?
I am not pretending anything, I'm trying to espress a point of view based on known facts. I'm quite happy to acknowledge that we along with all other Premier League clubs spend a lot of money. The fact that we spend more than clubs in other European leagues doesn't make a jot of difference, when our main English rivals are also spending more than clubs in European leagues and more importantly, spending more on average than we are.
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we're due a derby defeat or two and that rankles.
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8th or above
Derby wins
Good cup run
Nice football and a bit of confidence in the team
Oh yeah and Gabby to hit 20 ;)
If we win all our derby's then we'll struggle to finish lower than 6th! 24 points right there.
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If they'd wanted to they could have given MacDonald authority to make transfers. That they didn't suggests that they weren't altogether unhappy at the opportunity not to spend anything this summer.
Hang on, though, Chris, weren't you in the "these things take time to sort out, you dont just wave the money and the players come" camp when it was MON taking his time to complete transfers, but now you reckon KMac could have got them under way and sorted in three weeks?
Maybe we'd already talked to players who wanted to come but changed their mind when our managerial situation changed, thus leaving us at square one?
The only thing we can say without any doubt on transfers is that the Milner deal, which went through after MON left, included a player to make up, what, 40 percent of the deal value.
That doesn't sound like a board who were suddenly happy not to be spending anything, or surely they'd have insisted on the cash.
Yes, he could have made signings in 3 weeks. He said an interview that he expected to be talking to people about potential signings, they just didn't happen. We either failed with bids or they decided not to go ahead.
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we're due a derby defeat or two and that rankles.
Geeeeeeeeeet out of it!
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If they'd wanted to they could have given MacDonald authority to make transfers. That they didn't suggests that they weren't altogether unhappy at the opportunity not to spend anything this summer.
Hang on, though, Chris, weren't you in the "these things take time to sort out, you dont just wave the money and the players come" camp when it was MON taking his time to complete transfers, but now you reckon KMac could have got them under way and sorted in three weeks?
Maybe we'd already talked to players who wanted to come but changed their mind when our managerial situation changed, thus leaving us at square one?
The only thing we can say without any doubt on transfers is that the Milner deal, which went through after MON left, included a player to make up, what, 40 percent of the deal value.
That doesn't sound like a board who were suddenly happy not to be spending anything, or surely they'd have insisted on the cash.
Yes, he could have made signings in 3 weeks. He said an interview that he expected to be talking to people about potential signings, they just didn't happen. We either failed with bids or they decided not to go ahead.
So why the assumption (not referring to you necessarily) that we've decided to pull out of transfers?
Nobody has done much business this summer. It was a difficult summer to start with, and losing the manager when we did was going to make it much harder.
They've stated categorically that it is nonsense that we waited until the window has shut so we couldn't sign players. Given that they've consistently backed us financially over four years, personally I reckon they've got enough "credit" in the bank to be believed on that one.
I'm just surprised at how many people have decided not to.
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wasnt the statement that we didnt do any deals was due to wanting the new manager to be in control of them?
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8th or above
Derby wins
Good cup run
Nice football and a bit of confidence in the team
Oh yeah and Gabby to hit 20 ;)
If we win all our derby's then we'll struggle to finish lower than 6th! 24 points right there.
Even better!
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Surely the milner money the FXpro and fiat money plus any money which was allocated for summer transfers. Has put us in a strong position for Jan and some big names for next summer ???
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If they'd wanted to they could have given MacDonald authority to make transfers. That they didn't suggests that they weren't altogether unhappy at the opportunity not to spend anything this summer.
Hang on, though, Chris, weren't you in the "these things take time to sort out, you dont just wave the money and the players come" camp when it was MON taking his time to complete transfers, but now you reckon KMac could have got them under way and sorted in three weeks?
Maybe we'd already talked to players who wanted to come but changed their mind when our managerial situation changed, thus leaving us at square one?
The only thing we can say without any doubt on transfers is that the Milner deal, which went through after MON left, included a player to make up, what, 40 percent of the deal value.
That doesn't sound like a board who were suddenly happy not to be spending anything, or surely they'd have insisted on the cash.
Yes, he could have made signings in 3 weeks. He said an interview that he expected to be talking to people about potential signings, they just didn't happen. We either failed with bids or they decided not to go ahead.
So why the assumption (not referring to you necessarily) that we've decided to pull out of transfers?
Nobody has done much business this summer. It was a difficult summer to start with, and losing the manager when we did was going to make it much harder.
They've stated categorically that it is nonsense that we waited until the window has shut so we couldn't sign players. Given that they've consistently backed us financially over four years, personally I reckon they've got enough "credit" in the bank to be believed on that one.
I'm just surprised at how many people have decided not to.
Which is the lowest placed team in the football league, other than us, that haven't bought a single player?
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Surely the milner money the FXpro and fiat money plus any money which was allocated for summer transfers. Has put us in a strong position for Jan and some big names for next summer ???
That should be the case, even though nothing might be available in Jan.
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wasnt the statement that we didnt do any deals was due to wanting the new manager to be in control of them?
Yet we sold Milner and Shorey.
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if Houllier had been appointed a few days before the transfer window shut, he might well have been out buying players before he really knew what we need,
before he had a good look at the squad and decided who he was going to keep and let go.
they reckon one of the mistakes people make when moving into a new property is to make changes straight away, best to live there for a while first, very often people change what they would have done originaly to something better.
same could be said of buying players in a panic and before you really know what you need,
so i dont see it as a big negative to be honest
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I believed them that it is nonsense that we waited until the window has shut before signing a new manager so we couldn't sign players. I also believed them when they said the focus this summer was on reducing wages and needing to sell some players.
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Whoever gets the managers job isn't going to find it easy are they. The club if not in turmoil is very unsettled from the fans upwards, leaving the new man a hard PR excercise as well as all the usual stuff of getting to know your squad, changing all the football related stuff to your liking.
I don't feel the squad are good enough to maintain matters whilst the changes are instigated and I'd expect at least a season for the new man to adjust all and sundry, so I'm hoping for a top 10 finish and top 6 at best.
I can't see a flurry of transfers in in January maybe a few will leave, I can't see a dramatic change in style of play either initially just consolidation, building a sound base and the hope of an outside chance of a European qualification.
Good luck to whoever Randy appoints, he deserves at least this season or whats left of it to see how smart a choice it proves.
You make it sound like this sort of thing has not happened in the world of football before.
Get a grip, for God's sake.
The squad is good enough for a mid-table finish and a tilt at one of the cups.
Clearly, the major impact of a new manager on the squad composition is unlikley to be felt until next summer. We have to hope that GH has enough credibility and expertise to bring this current crop through the rest of this season. He shoud have.
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A finish inside the top 10 and a good cup run for me. Consolidate, re-group and push on. The sqaud only needs a couple of additions (fine tuning) and if we can hold onto our stars during the next 2 transfer windows we should be in a position to push 4th next season.
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What some people seem to be suggesting is that our owner, who has invested heavily to get the team into a position where we have been pushing for a CL place for two (arguably three) consecutive seasons has decided to suddenly give up and go for mediocrity.
Nah, sorry, I can't see it.
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Which is the lowest placed team in the football league, other than us, that haven't bought a single player?
Blackburn.
Yet we have "bought" a player - we took Ireland as part of the Milner deal, rather than the extra money. How many other teams lost their manager three weeks before the end of the transfer window?
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What some people seem to be suggesting is that our owner, who has invested heavily to get the team into a position where we have been pushing for a CL place for two (arguably three) consecutive seasons has decided to suddenly give up and go for mediocrity.
Nah, sorry, I can't see it.
I think what is being suggested is that this summer reducing the wage bill was the first priority and only then could further signings be made.
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What some people seem to be suggesting is that our owner, who has invested heavily to get the team into a position where we have been pushing for a CL place for two (arguably three) consecutive seasons has decided to suddenly give up and go for mediocrity.
Nah, sorry, I can't see it.
I think what is being suggested is that this summer reducing the wage bill was the first priority and only then could further signings be made.
I think that's where a lot of us disagree.
I didn't see it as "do one, THEN do the other", i saw it as "done one, but ALSO do the other".
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Top 8 this season and I would be pretty pleased. Anything more is a bonus. Should give GH and PT enough time to assess everything and really go for it next summer (I hope)
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I didn't see it as "do one, THEN do the other", i saw it as "done one, but ALSO do the other".
So you think Martin was allowed to sign new players before the unused ones were shipped out? I think the opposite and that's were the frustration that ultimately lead to his resignation set in.
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I didn't see it as "do one, THEN do the other", i saw it as "done one, but ALSO do the other".
So you think Martin was allowed to sign new players before the unused ones were shipped out? I think the opposite and that's were the frustration that ultimately lead to his resignation set in.
I think he was, yes.
I know he's pretty much always late, but let's not forget, this was a world cup summer in which hardly anyone made a decent number of signings, it barely kicked into gear at all, and when it did, it was on the last day.
If he'd been told he had to sell before buying and that was what caused him to jump, why didn't he do it at the start of the summer rather than at the end?
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I didn't see it as "do one, THEN do the other", i saw it as "done one, but ALSO do the other".
So you think Martin was allowed to sign new players before the unused ones were shipped out? I think the opposite and that's were the frustration that ultimately lead to his resignation set in.
I think he was, yes.
I know he's pretty much always late, but let's not forget, this was a world cup summer in which hardly anyone made a decent number of signings, it barely kicked into gear at all, and when it did, it was on the last day.
If he'd been told he had to sell before buying and that was what caused him to jump, why didn't he do it at the start of the summer rather than at the end?
A question I also would like to know the answer to.
Personally, I think he had the money to sign players, but had to ensure the wages were reduced/static, so it was in effect a 'sell to buy' policy. I think what changed was his acceptance of this as the summer market was slow as you say, so the outs didn't happen and his hands were tied.
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What some people seem to be suggesting is that our owner, who has invested heavily to get the team into a position where we have been pushing for a CL place for two (arguably three) consecutive seasons has decided to suddenly give up and go for mediocrity.
Nah, sorry, I can't see it.
I think what is being suggested is that this summer reducing the wage bill was the first priority and only then could further signings be made.
I think that's where a lot of us disagree.
I didn't see it as "do one, THEN do the other", i saw it as "done one, but ALSO do the other".
You would think that it is feasible to do both in one window, which is essentially doing both things at the same time.
Actually I would hope the board did want to get rid of some of the players money is being wasted on first of all. It's a good idea. It makes perfect sense. No reason why players couldn't have been signed at the same time, or shortly after.
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Which is the lowest placed team in the football league, other than us, that haven't bought a single player?
Blackburn.
Yet we have "bought" a player - we took Ireland as part of the Milner deal, rather than the extra money. How many other teams lost their manager three weeks before the end of the transfer window?
So, we're now on a par with Blackburn. And as for your second point, 3 weeks. 3 bloody weeks. they wanted Kev Mac to get the job so why not allow him to look for players at that stage? He had his hands tien and once they realsied he couldn't do the job they then stumbled over themselves to get others to apply for the job.
Not really what you expect from a well run business is it?
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What some people seem to be suggesting is that our owner, who has invested heavily to get the team into a position where we have been pushing for a CL place for two (arguably three) consecutive seasons has decided to suddenly give up and go for mediocrity.
Nah, sorry, I can't see it.
I think what is being suggested is that this summer reducing the wage bill was the first priority and only then could further signings be made.
I think that's where a lot of us disagree.
I didn't see it as "do one, THEN do the other", i saw it as "done one, but ALSO do the other".
I think events support my thoughts. I think O'Neill accepted this in May but then when in August they's still not managed to shift any he wanted to push on with signings anyway and hope that they'd be able to sell later but was told no. That's what caused things to come to a head.
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I didn't see it as "do one, THEN do the other", i saw it as "done one, but ALSO do the other".
So you think Martin was allowed to sign new players before the unused ones were shipped out? I think the opposite and that's were the frustration that ultimately lead to his resignation set in.
I think he was, yes.
I know he's pretty much always late, but let's not forget, this was a world cup summer in which hardly anyone made a decent number of signings, it barely kicked into gear at all, and when it did, it was on the last day.
If he'd been told he had to sell before buying and that was what caused him to jump, why didn't he do it at the start of the summer rather than at the end?
The $64 million question....
Chris Smith's theory seems to be the closest to making sense.
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I didn't see it as "do one, THEN do the other", i saw it as "done one, but ALSO do the other".
So you think Martin was allowed to sign new players before the unused ones were shipped out? I think the opposite and that's were the frustration that ultimately lead to his resignation set in.
I think the General intimated, even said such.
If you believe the General tells the truth why suggest otherwise, apart from making Mon's exit nearly excusable
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So, we're now on a par with Blackburn. And as for your second point, 3 weeks. 3 bloody weeks. they wanted Kev Mac to get the job so why not allow him to look for players at that stage? He had his hands tien and once they realsied he couldn't do the job they then stumbled over themselves to get others to apply for the job.
Not really what you expect from a well run business is it?
I hadn't realised they'd wanted KM as the manager, I'd assumed as they advertised the post, took on a head hunting company and started interviewing they wanted to assess the potential field. To, as General K said, spend money then on players was silly. Convenient to the bank balance perhaps, but apart from giving fans plenty of licence to criticise RL for buying players it served no purpose. I can't see either that allowing KM to choose players to buy offered any answer, he was after all just the youth and reserve team coach, until his temporary, much appreciated step up.
When Mon joined many argued in his favour for not buying players in the weeks he had before the window closed, yet now its a crime ?
Seems to me when Mon quit, RL ran the Villa too much like a properly run business, rather than the usual managerial circus, and 3 weeks isn't that long a time in those circumstances. It may not be Ellis like but I suppose if that's your pref, who am I to argue further.
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So, we're now on a par with Blackburn. And as for your second point, 3 weeks. 3 bloody weeks. they wanted Kev Mac to get the job so why not allow him to look for players at that stage? He had his hands tien and once they realsied he couldn't do the job they then stumbled over themselves to get others to apply for the job.
Not really what you expect from a well run business is it?
I hadn't realised they'd wanted KM as the manager, I'd assumed as they advertised the post, took on a head hunting company and started interviewing they wanted to assess the potential field. To, as General K said, spend money then on players was silly. Convenient to the bank balance perhaps, but apart from giving fans plenty of licence to criticise RL for buying players it served no purpose. I can't see either that allowing KM to choose players to buy offered any answer, he was after all just the youth and reserve team coach, until his temporary, much appreciated step up.
When Mon joined many argued in his favour for not buying players in the weeks he had before the window closed, yet now its a crime ?
Seems to me when Mon quit, RL ran the Villa too much like a properly run business, rather than the usual managerial circus, and 3 weeks isn't that long a time in those circumstances. It may not be Ellis like but I suppose if that's your pref, who am I to argue further.
Yeah, that's bang on. Ellis would have sorted this mess out. You loon.
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I think events support my thoughts. I think O'Neill accepted this in May but then when in August they's still not managed to shift any he wanted to push on with signings anyway and hope that they'd be able to sell later but was told no. That's what caused things to come to a head.
I disagree. I think events and more importantly General K suggests that the will to sell on players was not there with Mon, and when reminded of the agreed plan he threw his hissy fit and ran off.
He obviously thought he knew best, he was bigger than RL and Villa and when advised that was not the case he quit.
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Which is the lowest placed team in the football league, other than us, that haven't bought a single player?
Blackburn.
Yet we have "bought" a player - we took Ireland as part of the Milner deal, rather than the extra money. How many other teams lost their manager three weeks before the end of the transfer window?
So, we're now on a par with Blackburn. And as for your second point, 3 weeks. 3 bloody weeks. they wanted Kev Mac to get the job so why not allow him to look for players at that stage? He had his hands tien and once they realsied he couldn't do the job they then stumbled over themselves to get others to apply for the job.
Not really what you expect from a well run business is it?
You asked the question, I answered it. Although Blackburn didn't lose their manager just before the start of the season, so we've at least got a contributing cause.
The rest of your post is just conjecture. How do you know they didn't start looking until KM said no? The fact is, you don't.
There are lots of things we all don't know on this subject, what it comes down to is whether you think they've earned the benefit of the doubt. For some people it'll come down to MON vs the board, and they'll make their decisions accordingly.
Personally, I don't see any reason for the board to lie to us. I've not spent the last four years kissing their arses, but by the same stretch, I'm not about to pretend they've - all of a sudden - started channelling the spirit of Doug, because they haven't.
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So you say that the rest of my post is conjecture and then go on to give us your personal opinion, and conjecture. Its what this is all about isn't it? Of course I don't know. Its my opinion.
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I didn't see it as "do one, THEN do the other", i saw it as "done one, but ALSO do the other".
So you think Martin was allowed to sign new players before the unused ones were shipped out? I think the opposite and that's were the frustration that ultimately lead to his resignation set in.
I think the General intimated, even said such.
If you believe the General tells the truth why suggest otherwise, apart from making Mon's exit nearly excusable
The General said we could buy players BEFORE we shedding some of the wagebill first? I'd love to see that post if you'd like to dig it out?
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So you say that the rest of my post is conjecture and then go on to give us your personal opinion, and conjecture. Its what this is all about isn't it? Of course I don't know. Its my opinion.
And then, if you'd carried on reading, you'd see the bit where I said it comes down to how much we're prepared to trust the board.
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we're due a derby defeat or two and that rankles.
We never lose to small heath, wolves or the baggies anymore.
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A key point here: We are limited by a factor. The former manager's departure came at a bad time which hamstrung us in the transfer market and indeed the new manager market. If we had been looking in to a new appointment at the start of the close season we could have a more alluring shortlist. This means we can not expect far too much from the season or in my opinion move forward from last season.
That said. Houllier strikes me as a decent manager; O'Neill has left behind a decent enough squad and for me beyond the usual suspects of Liverpool and Everton there is little from the teams who were below us to fear. So I expect 6th-8th place probably 8th, and a decent run in the FA Cup as with last season. I also expect us to dip our toes in the market in January to strengthen a spot.
In all honesty there has been little change in my expectations from under O'Neill... Maybe a place or two lower due to the timing of the managerial change and our inability to strengthen but overall little change. I will however, enjoy the ride a bit more as it will be less predictable.