Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Shrek on August 23, 2010, 08:42:48 AM
-
Andy Carroll showed yesturday that a year in the championship can only be a good thing.
Why on earth didn't Martin send Del boy and Albrighton out on loan last season to prepare them for this year!
Carroll looked very raw 2 seasons ago, he now looks strong mobile and ready.
-
Albrighton because he was injured in the early January and pretty much missed the rest of the season. Fonz because he was our 4th choice striker when Harewood was also injured.
I agree that Carroll appears to have improved massively and said as much to the fellow Villan I met in a pub in Maidenhead. I also agree that certain youngsters would benefit from a solid season playing regularly. That being said, I dislike the ability of the big, rich clubs to stockpile young talent and then distribute it on loan to further their own ends and the sooner the FA take this ability away, the better as far as I'm concerned.
-
We're making this assessment of Carroll on one performance? Next thing he will be in the England squad I daresay...pretty much par for the course!
-
I don't think Carroll looked very mobile at all.
He just took his chances well.
-
Carroll was excellent last year with 19 goals, he has played very well in the opening 2 games!
They both should have gone out on season long loans, because it didn't matter what choice they were they never had a chance under Oneil!
-
I like the balance to our ex-manager getting the blame for what went wrong yesterday and none of the credit for the West Ham result.
-
I like the balance to our ex-manager getting the blame for what went wrong yesterday and none of the credit for the West Ham result.
Indeed. I hope this kind of reasoning stops immediately because it's already very old.
-
I like the balance to our ex-manager getting the blame for what went wrong yesterday and none of the credit for the West Ham result.
What a stupid comment.
West Ham was everything Martin wasn't, young attacking team, with youth getting a chance off the bench.
Yesturday was a copy of when Martin was here, lightweight in the middle, waiting too long to change it and bringing heskey on when you need a goal.
-
Yesterday just highlighted the difference a proper manager makes in a game like that. It was just from the moment the first goal went in, lacking in any direction. The team picked itself was naive as mentioned here. Newcastles solid midfield 3, and our lightweight midfield. Clark's previous two top flight matches were incredibly comfortable. But his inexperienced really showed today. Again, I'd have given him the chance off the back of last week in all fairness. And maybe the injuries meant he had to play. But if there was another experienced option, retrospect says that person should have played. Dunney doesn't look fit either.
Losing 7-0 to a rampart, title winning side like Chelsea last season was bad enough. That was about being outclassed and just caving in. But Newcastle's side is at the very best, with their first 11, a mid-table side. Nothing more. No way should we be mauled like that. It was frightening. And I'm sure O Neill leading us out, we'd have probably won the game in truth.
But yes, the man is a twat. He's thrown his toys out the pram and dropped us in it. I agree Fonzie and Albrighton should have had lengthy loan periods by now. Again, this is down to O Neill. We needed them around last year because the squad wasn't big enough. Since O Neill took over, we've been consistently short of what's required for a season. That's down to dithering. One dimensional buying, and wasting too much money on overrated domestic players. 12 Mill for Downing could have brought us two better wingers from abroad to be honest. I still think MC Stew will come good, but he's not a top 6 quality player. If Ash departs, we're in trouble. Sadly last season we just didn't have the option to send our better kids out on loan.
-
Yesterday just highlighted the difference a proper manager makes in a game like that. It was just from the moment the first goal went in, lacking in any direction. The team picked itself was naive as mentioned here. Newcastles solid midfield 3, and our lightweight midfield. Clark's previous two top flight matches were incredibly comfortable. But his inexperienced really showed today. Again, I'd have given him the chance off the back of last week in all fairness. And maybe the injuries meant he had to play. But if there was another experienced option, retrospect says that person should have played. Dunney doesn't look fit either.
Losing 7-0 to a rampart, title winning side like Chelsea last season was bad enough. That was about being outclassed and just caving in. But Newcastle's side is at the very best, with their first 11, a mid-table side. Nothing more. No way should we be mauled like that. It was frightening. And I'm sure O Neill leading us out, we'd have probably won the game in truth.
But yes, the man is a twat. He's thrown his toys out the pram and dropped us in it. I agree Fonzie and Albrighton should have had lengthy loan periods by now. Again, this is down to O Neill. We needed them around last year because the squad wasn't big enough. Since O Neill took over, we've been consistently short of what's required for a season. That's down to dithering. One dimensional buying, and wasting too much money on overrated domestic players. 12 Mill for Downing could have brought us two better wingers from abroad to be honest. I still think MC Stew will come good, but he's not a top 6 quality player. If Ash departs, we're in trouble. Sadly last season we just didn't have the option to send our better kids out on loan.
Can't argue with that!
Only thing is what was the point of keeping them around when he knew he wouldn't play them!
-
Yesterday just highlighted the difference a proper manager makes in a game like that. It was just from the moment the first goal went in, lacking in any direction. The team picked itself was naive as mentioned here. Newcastles solid midfield 3, and our lightweight midfield. Clark's previous two top flight matches were incredibly comfortable. But his inexperienced really showed today. Again, I'd have given him the chance off the back of last week in all fairness. And maybe the injuries meant he had to play. But if there was another experienced option, retrospect says that person should have played. Dunney doesn't look fit either.
Losing 7-0 to a rampart, title winning side like Chelsea last season was bad enough. That was about being outclassed and just caving in. But Newcastle's side is at the very best, with their first 11, a mid-table side. Nothing more. No way should we be mauled like that. It was frightening. And I'm sure O Neill leading us out, we'd have probably won the game in truth.
But yes, the man is a twat. He's thrown his toys out the pram and dropped us in it. I agree Fonzie and Albrighton should have had lengthy loan periods by now. Again, this is down to O Neill. We needed them around last year because the squad wasn't big enough. Since O Neill took over, we've been consistently short of what's required for a season. That's down to dithering. One dimensional buying, and wasting too much money on overrated domestic players. 12 Mill for Downing could have brought us two better wingers from abroad to be honest. I still think MC Stew will come good, but he's not a top 6 quality player. If Ash departs, we're in trouble. Sadly last season we just didn't have the option to send our better kids out on loan.
Can't argue with that!
Only thing is what was the point of keeping them around when he knew he wouldn't play them!
True but O Neill kept on acknowledging our small squad, and the need for all of them, and then ignored pretty much all but 14 players and ran his favourites into the ground.
-
Personally, I blame Ellis and O'Leary.
-
I like the balance to our ex-manager getting the blame for what went wrong yesterday and none of the credit for the West Ham result.
What a stupid comment.
West Ham was everything Martin wasn't, young attacking team, with youth getting a chance off the bench.
Yesturday was a copy of when Martin was here, lightweight in the middle, waiting too long to change it and bringing heskey on when you need a goal.
No, it's not stupid just because you don't agree with it. You can't blame a manager for the result of the third game after he's left and also say that the other two were nothing to do with him.
We need to move on and I'd rather not be discussing an old manager, but if his influence on the club is still great enough to affect something in the third game after he's left, then it was also there in the two games before.
-
I like the balance to our ex-manager getting the blame for what went wrong yesterday and none of the credit for the West Ham result.
What a stupid comment.
West Ham was everything Martin wasn't, young attacking team, with youth getting a chance off the bench.
Yesturday was a copy of when Martin was here, lightweight in the middle, waiting too long to change it and bringing heskey on when you need a goal.
6 fucking nil.
Losing 6 - 0 to a newly promoted team was a damn sight further away from an O'Neill team performance than beating West Ham 3-0.
If the LMA are to be believed and O'Neill walked because the CEO did the deal to bring Ireland in against his wishes, then he had no choice but to walk and it is Faulkner who is the twat in this.
btw: "yesturday" is apt.
-
If the LMA are to be believed and O'Neill walked because the CEO did the deal to bring Ireland in against his wishes, then he had no choice but to walk and it is Faulkner who is the twat in this.
btw: "yesturday" is apt.
Where's this?
-
I like the balance to our ex-manager getting the blame for what went wrong yesterday and none of the credit for the West Ham result.
What a stupid comment.
West Ham was everything Martin wasn't, young attacking team, with youth getting a chance off the bench.
Yesturday was a copy of when Martin was here, lightweight in the middle, waiting too long to change it and bringing heskey on when you need a goal.
No, it's not stupid just because you don't agree with it. You can't blame a manager for the result of the third game after he's left and also say that the other two were nothing to do with him.
We need to move on and I'd rather not be discussing an old manager, but if his influence on the club is still great enough to affect something in the third game after he's left, then it was also there in the two games before.
It is not opinion it is fact.
Martin did not allow our up and coming youths to go out a gain valuable experience.
Andy Carroll showed yesturday that you cannot buy experience, but don't worry we've won the reserve league.
-
If the LMA are to be believed and O'Neill walked because the CEO did the deal to bring Ireland in against his wishes, then he had no choice but to walk and it is Faulkner who is the twat in this.
btw: "yesturday" is apt.
Where's this?
According to Charles Sale in the Daily Mail, the League Managers Association said that none of O'Neill's targets was outside of the wage structure but Ireland was.
-
If the LMA are to be believed and O'Neill walked because the CEO did the deal to bring Ireland in against his wishes, then he had no choice but to walk and it is Faulkner who is the twat in this.
btw: "yesturday" is apt.
Where's this?
According to Charles Sale in the Daily Mail, the League Managers Association said that none of O'Neill's targets was outside of the wage structure but Ireland was.
So not so much as the LMA said it, but the Daily Mail said the LMA said it?
Incidentally, it is possible to be buying a player out of the wage structure and still doing something about the wage bill (hefty number of high earning, shit players to be moved on).
-
It is not opinion it is fact.
Martin did not allow our up and coming youths to go out a gain valuable experience.
Andy Carroll showed yesturday that you cannot buy experience, but don't worry we've won the reserve league.
Is it? It may be a fact that they didn't go out on loan, but it's opinion as to whether that would have been the best thing for them. There's no point sending them out and then recalling them, which may have been the case if we trying to go with 3 strikers and two wingers in the squad. OK, they weren't used as much as you or I would like, but you're talking one injury and they would need to be recalled.
-
If the LMA are to be believed and O'Neill walked because the CEO did the deal to bring Ireland in against his wishes, then he had no choice but to walk and it is Faulkner who is the twat in this.
btw: "yesturday" is apt.
Where's this?
According to Charles Sale in the Daily Mail, the League Managers Association said that none of O'Neill's targets was outside of the wage structure but Ireland was.
So not so much as the LMA said it, but the Daily Mail said the LMA said it?
Incidentally, it is possible to be buying a player out of the wage structure and still doing something about the wage bill (hefty number of high earning, shit players to be moved on).
I think this all goes to show what I said at the time was right - we don't know the full facts as to why he left so judgement should be reserved until we do!
-
Andy Carroll showed yesturday that you cannot buy experience, but don't worry we've won the reserve league.
Loving the hailing of Andy Carroll as one of the greatest talents in the game after a decent season in the lower leagues and a hat trick yesterday.
I'd have fancied my chances of scoring against us yesterday, and I can't run up and down the stairs without panting for breath.
-
Loving the hailing of Andy Carroll as one of the greatest talents in the game after a decent season in the lower leagues and a hat trick yesterday.
Isn't that exactly what Marlon Harewood did for West Ham?
-
Loving the hailing of Andy Carroll as one of the greatest talents in the game after a decent season in the lower leagues and a hat trick yesterday.
Isn't that exactly what Marlon Harewood did for West Ham?
Isn't it just, and look how he turned out.
-
Forget the fact that two young decent kids didn't go on loan - I would think the reserve league is not far off the standard of the Championship + Little Barry B went to Blackpool and no offence does not look like he would dominate a Premiership game any time soon!
I do however agree with the conclusion if not the reasoning!!
-
Paulie we got Carew and Heskey. Im hailing Carroll, he did everything yesterday our big 2 cant.
-
The manager should never have players foisted on them, if he didn't want Ireland he had right on his side.
It would be worrying if this is the way transfers are done in the future.
-
If the LMA are to be believed and O'Neill walked because the CEO did the deal to bring Ireland in against his wishes, then he had no choice but to walk and it is Faulkner who is the twat in this.
btw: "yesturday" is apt.
Where's this?
According to Charles Sale in the Daily Mail, the League Managers Association said that none of O'Neill's targets was outside of the wage structure but Ireland was.
So it's not lazy journalism any more?
-
I like the balance to our ex-manager getting the blame for what went wrong yesterday and none of the credit for the West Ham result.
What a stupid comment.
West Ham was everything Martin wasn't, young attacking team, with youth getting a chance off the bench.
Yesturday was a copy of when Martin was here, lightweight in the middle, waiting too long to change it and bringing heskey on when you need a goal.
So when we win it's in spite of O'Neill and when we lose it's because of O'Neill?
-
andy caroll is nothing special and yesterday, i would have backed heskey to score a hat trick against our so called defence...
the lack of protection in front of them from the midfield did not help, but some of the simple things that werent done by the likes of warnock, dunne and friedel, was unforgiveable...
as for the likes of petrov and downing, their powder puff attempts at tackling was nothing short of a disgrace...
-
i think Andy Caroll is going to be a good striker,
he's young , big, looked mobile to me yesterday, good brain with loads of running of the ball and creating space.
he looked alright to me, i'd certainly swap him for Carew,
ok are defence had a nightmare game, but you have still got to take advantage, he did
-
I like the balance to our ex-manager getting the blame for what went wrong yesterday and none of the credit for the West Ham result.
What a stupid comment.
West Ham was everything Martin wasn't, young attacking team, with youth getting a chance off the bench.
Yesturday was a copy of when Martin was here, lightweight in the middle, waiting too long to change it and bringing heskey on when you need a goal.
We would never have lost by the same score yesterday had MON been in charge. For one, he'd never have let the players get away with giving less than 100%, he'd have been screaming and shouting at them from his technical area. There was no communication either on the pitch. Regarding team selection, he'd probably have played Beye instead of Clark and got Dunne to do a job on Caroll. Albrighton wouldn't have played; he'd have played Sidwell or swallowed his ego and had NRC in the middle with Ashley out on the wing.
One thing about MON's teams, as dull and uninspiring as they were, he sets everything out first and foremost, not to lose.
-
We would never have lost by the same score yesterday had MON been in charge.
If I said that I'd be accused of being a MONette and mourning the loss of mt Messiah, but you're right!
-
We would never have lost by the same score yesterday had MON been in charge.
If I said that I'd be accused of being a MONette and mourning the loss of mt Messiah, but you're right!
If the hat fits, John.. (winky)
-
Title of thread is nonsense and I have to agree with what Mark Kelly said.
Seems some people are developing some sort of unhealthy obsession with using every bad thing that happens as a stick to beat MON with.
Yesterday's team selection was extremely naive considering we were playing a newly promoted team away from home.
Possibly is a blessing in disguise that it happened 2nd game in and not 10 games in. But I am clutching for positives.
-
If the LMA are to be believed and O'Neill walked because the CEO did the deal to bring Ireland in against his wishes, then he had no choice but to walk and it is Faulkner who is the twat in this.
btw: "yesturday" is apt.
Where's this?
According to Charles Sale in the Daily Mail, the League Managers Association said that none of O'Neill's targets was outside of the wage structure but Ireland was.
So it's not lazy journalism any more?
I'm sorry, that's too obscure for me to understand.
-
If the LMA are to be believed and O'Neill walked because the CEO did the deal to bring Ireland in against his wishes, then he had no choice but to walk and it is Faulkner who is the twat in this.
btw: "yesturday" is apt.
Where's this?
According to Charles Sale in the Daily Mail, the League Managers Association said that none of O'Neill's targets was outside of the wage structure but Ireland was.
So it's not lazy journalism any more?
I'm sorry, that's too obscure for me to understand.
Side articles such as this one, with no direct quotes, tend to be disregarded as false, and lazy journalism to boot. This one, though, is regarded as gospel.
-
...
Side articles such as this one, with no direct quotes, tend to be disregarded as false, and lazy journalism to boot. This one, though, is regarded as gospel.
I don't regard it as gospel, I think it poses a question that hasn't yet been answered. It would be interesting to know what the reasons were that O'Neill gave to the board for his resignation.
-
...
Side articles such as this one, with no direct quotes, tend to be disregarded as false, and lazy journalism to boot. This one, though, is regarded as gospel.
I don't regard it as gospel, I think it poses a question that hasn't yet been answered. It would be interesting to know what the reasons were that O'Neill gave to the board for his resignation.
But you certainly are jumping to conclusions.
-
I was no MON fan, but to blame him for yesterday's result is nuts. He didn't pick the team or set out the tactics. He didn't have the opportunity to make changes during the game.
I think Mark Kelly got it about bang on.
-
Just another pointless thread which could have easily been included somewhere else to save space. And further edfidence than many of you are having trouble moving on, its quite sad really.
-
Just another pointless thread which could have easily been included somewhere else to save space. And further edfidence than many of you are having trouble moving on, its quite sad really.
Quite ironic considering your name and the fact that you're posting on here.
-
...
Side articles such as this one, with no direct quotes, tend to be disregarded as false, and lazy journalism to boot. This one, though, is regarded as gospel.
I don't regard it as gospel, I think it poses a question that hasn't yet been answered. It would be interesting to know what the reasons were that O'Neill gave to the board for his resignation.
But you certainly are jumping to conclusions.
and there was I thinking I was being open minded about the possible causes for his resignation.
-
"If the LMA are to be believed.........Faulkner is the twat in this." If that's open-minded I wouldn't want you on a jury.
-
I thought there were reports previously that MON didn't actually want Ireland as part of the deal. If true, then it opens this up to further consideration.
-
Judging by the comments from Ireland after he signed, he'd been aware of Villa's interest and his part in the Milner deal for a long time.
-
"If the LMA are to be believed.........Faulkner is the twat in this." If that's open-minded I wouldn't want you on a jury.
"If the LMA are to be believed and O'Neill walked because the CEO did the deal to bring Ireland in against his wishes, then he had no choice but to walk and it is Faulkner who is the twat in this. "
You can take it as conclusive if you like, I thought I'd put enough of a caveat in there. I haven't made my mind up about what caused the resignation, there hasn't been a single credible version as far as I can tell.
-
I like the balance to our ex-manager getting the blame for what went wrong yesterday and none of the credit for the West Ham result.
What a stupid comment.
West Ham was everything Martin wasn't, young attacking team, with youth getting a chance off the bench.
Yesturday was a copy of when Martin was here, lightweight in the middle, waiting too long to change it and bringing heskey on when you need a goal.
We would never have lost by the same score yesterday had MON been in charge. For one, he'd never have let the players get away with giving less than 100%, he'd have been screaming and shouting at them from his technical area. There was no communication either on the pitch. Regarding team selection, he'd probably have played Beye instead of Clark and got Dunne to do a job on Caroll. Albrighton wouldn't have played; he'd have played Sidwell or swallowed his ego and had NRC in the middle with Ashley out on the wing.
One thing about MON's teams, as dull and uninspiring as they were, he sets everything out first and foremost, not to lose.
Despite being a long term critic of O'Neill I said as much in the post match thread. Some of the players he bought may not be worth the money, the squad may be a bit thin now we have a few injuries, and some of the youngsters could have had a bit more playing time under him, but it's daft trying to blame O'Neill for this gutless performance and result.
-
"If the LMA are to be believed.........Faulkner is the twat in this." If that's open-minded I wouldn't want you on a jury.
"If the LMA are to be believed and O'Neill walked because the CEO did the deal to bring Ireland in against his wishes, then he had no choice but to walk and it is Faulkner who is the twat in this. "
Indeed.
-
My original thoughts seem to have got lost.
I never said yesturday was Martins fault, I was merely venting my frustration at the fact we have injuries meaning we need our young players to step up.
I'm blaming Oneil for not allowing our top younger players to develop.
There is no garentee they would progress with loan spells, but Martin held them back. We would be winning a game convincingly and Martin would make one sub, Heskey! Instead of giving the youngs lads a chance. Alrighton looked ready for a season long loan after tge peace cup, everyone but Martin agreed with this no?
So the last 3 results has nothing to do with Martin but the fact Clark and Albrighton were out of their depth was mainly due too him.
-
There were plenty of things Mon did that weren't right, but yesterdays result was down to many peoples favourite for the job, pre match, now perhaps they realise their folly.
He chose several players he should not have, he chose a tactic that was wrong away from home if as we didn't, you don't score.
He then compounded the errors by not making the right changes quickly enough during the game.
As to Carroll, I've no idea how good he will be but not many a cf has given Dunne such a torrid time as he did, and we certainly didn't have in Carew or Heskey a striker a 10th as good.
-
"If the LMA are to be believed.........Faulkner is the twat in this." If that's open-minded I wouldn't want you on a jury.
"If the LMA are to be believed and O'Neill walked because the CEO did the deal to bring Ireland in against his wishes, then he had no choice but to walk and it is Faulkner who is the twat in this. "
You can take it as conclusive if you like, I thought I'd put enough of a caveat in there. I haven't made my mind up about what caused the resignation, there hasn't been a single credible version as far as I can tell.
I think if it were the case then I wouldn't blame O' Neill for walking out. It's all still speculation though about his reasons for leaving.
-
The legacy of Martin O'Neill's team - a team without a spine when things start to go wrong.
If we are going to blood young players, you need a very strong player in the middle to help them out when things get tough. Petrov is not that player, Reo Coker is not that player, Sidwell is not that player, Barry was not that player. So after 4 years of MON, where is that player in our team. This in my opinion was the major failing of our previous manager.
We are very good at times going forward and show that we can play football when things go for us. Being good on the counter attack usually shows that you are unable to dominate the opposition. So, why after 4 years are we still seen as a counter attacking team if had ambitions of top 4.
We are too open with the type of wide midfield players we have who are all offensive type players. I think we need to change by narrowing our game down, especially if we want to integrate Ireland into the team as, otherwise, I cannot see where he will play.