Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: sfx412 on July 27, 2010, 01:03:47 PM
-
I'm wondering what will happen to all those players on big wages who aren't picked in their clubs 25 by September 1
Will they have extended holidays, be swapped out on loan and their existing club still left to pay most of their wages.
How many clubs have many quality players under 21 on Jan 1 2010, I wonder
Villa I'd guess as we stand, should not be too poorly off, but I wonder about the likes of Salifou, Sidwell, Beye, and co.
Has Harewood left yet ?
I wonder if Mon has his list already and what input the management had in its writing.
-
I think Harewood and Bouma have now left.
Sidwell seemed certain to go last Friday, but I don't think he has yet.
Not sure if Reo-Coker and Shorey will stay either.
-
An excellent question Malcolm, dear boy.
I think we currently have a squad thusly:
Friedel, Guzan, Parish
Beye, Young, Warnock, Shorey, Davies, Cuellar, Dunne, Collins, Lichaj, Clark, Lowry
Young, Albrighton, Downing, Petrov, Reo Coker, Salifou, Osbourne, Sidwell, Milner, Delph
Carew, Agbonlahor, Heskey, Delfouneso, Weimann
That's 29. Meaning we have to lose 4. Then you figure we have to bring new players in (even if you arent going to promote any more kids form the academy) so then who ever comes in pushes somebody out. Therefore we, and anybody else with a similar sized squad, has to "sell to buy". Of course, you want to get rid of your worst players, not your best. Or the ones who are doing very little for the money they are on.
So now it all becomes about berths.
-
I think we had only 20 players aged over 21 at 1st of January so it isn't going to be an issue for us.
I read somewhere that Man City have 37 players eligible for their list of 25 but I'm not sure how true that is.
-
If I get this right, you can have in excess of 25 in the squad, provided they are 'homegrown', so effectively what you need is to have no more than 17 foreigners? If so, ours are:-
Carew
Petrov
Dunne(?)
Cuellar
Freidel
Guzan
Beye
We'll be fine.
-
You are allowed as many under 21s as you like so Albrighton, Fonz etc don't count. We'll be fine.
-
I dont think a squad bigger than 25 is all that healthy anyway.
Of course, for MON it's 14.
-
An excellent question Malcolm, dear boy.
I think we currently have a squad thusly:
Friedel, Guzan, Parish
Beye, Young, Warnock, Shorey, Davies, Cuellar, Dunne, Collins, Lichaj, Clark, Lowry
Young, Albrighton, Downing, Petrov, Reo Coker, Salifou, Osbourne, Sidwell, Milner, Delph
Carew, Agbonlahor, Heskey, Delfouneso, Weimann
That's 29. Meaning we have to lose 4. Then you figure we have to bring new players in (even if you arent going to promote any more kids form the academy) so then who ever comes in pushes somebody out. Therefore we, and anybody else with a similar sized squad, has to "sell to buy". Of course, you want to get rid of your worst players, not your best. Or the ones who are doing very little for the money they are on.
So now it all becomes about berths.
Parish, lichaj, clark, lowry, albrighton, delph, delfouneso and weimann all U21 at 1st January I think, so don't count for the purposes of the 25.
-
Does Ireland count as homegrown?
-
An excellent question Malcolm, dear boy.
I think we currently have a squad thusly:
Friedel, Guzan, Parish
Beye, Young, Warnock, Shorey, Davies, Cuellar, Dunne, Collins, Lichaj, Clark, Lowry
Young, Albrighton, Downing, Petrov, Reo Coker, Salifou, Osbourne, Sidwell, Milner, Delph
Carew, Agbonlahor, Heskey, Delfouneso, Weimann
That's 29. Meaning we have to lose 4. Then you figure we have to bring new players in (even if you arent going to promote any more kids form the academy) so then who ever comes in pushes somebody out. Therefore we, and anybody else with a similar sized squad, has to "sell to buy". Of course, you want to get rid of your worst players, not your best. Or the ones who are doing very little for the money they are on.
So now it all becomes about berths.
Remember you can add an infinite amount of players from the u21 bracket (as of jan 1st 2010) , so from your list:
Parish
Lichaj
Clark
Lowry
Delph
Delfouneso
Weimann
Which leaves us with 22, so spots for 3 new players with no further outgoings.
EDIT: Missed albrighton, so 21 of the 25 'used'.
-
I bet we are one of the few clubs in the PL who won't have a problem at all.
I didn't realise U21s didn't count in the 25. That makes it even better for us!
-
That's only a good idea if you dont intend using the U21s much and I'd hope we do because ours are quite god.
-
I don't think that's right. The rules say that you must name a squad of 25 senior players, eight of whom must be 'home-grown' - home-grown players are those that have been registered at an English or Welsh club for any three years between the ages of 16 and 21, so they can come from any country, they just need to have been here when they were young. I can't see that this presents us with a problem at all.
I suspect one of the main effects of this in the short term will be that the loan market will become more lively and important. And that Stephen Ireland and a whole host of others in Manchester might quickly develop itchy feet.
I hope so, anyway
-
Does Ireland count as homegrown?
Yes because he's been at citeh since he was 15 IIRC
-
Yeah that rule was put in because it forces clubs to give their academy products a bit of a chance on the bench, etc.
You only need 8 injuries/suspensions to force the kids onto the bench. I'd say if you looked through the full list for last year you'd find a whole load of times where clubs had at least that many people out.
It's also worth noting the effect it would have on youth development in this country if that rule wasn't in place, which is the exact opposite of what they're trying to accomplish by bringing it in.
-
This is interesting.
http://www.portsmouthfc.co.uk/first-team.aspx
-
This is interesting.
http://www.portsmouthfc.co.uk/first-team.aspx
They might ship a few goals in the coming season.
-
As it stands, our current squad could be...
HG = Home Grown, U21 = Under-21
Friedel
L Young (HG)
Sidwell (HG)
Dunne (HG)
Downing (HG)
A Young (HG)
Milner (HG)
Carew
Agbonlahor (HG)
Albrighton (HG) (U21)
Delfouneso (HG) (U21)
Davies (HG)
Delph (HG) (U21)
Salifou
Heskey (HG)
Petrov
Reo-Coker (HG)
Shorey (HG)
Guzan
Beye
Cuellar
Warnock (HG)
Osbourne (HG)
Collins (defender) (HG)
Weimann (U21)
Elliott Parish (HG) (U21)
Lichaj
Lowry (HG) (U21)
Bannan (HG) (U21)
Clark (HG) (U21)
Baker (HG) (U21)
Herd (HG) (U21)
Hogg (HG) (U21)
Siechchrist (U21)
That still leaves us three "over twenty-one" spaces, who can be from any country. Bearing in mind, according to most speculation, we'll likely sell more players than we bring in, I doubt we'll have a problem.
-
This is interesting.
http://www.portsmouthfc.co.uk/first-team.aspx
They might ship a few goals in the coming season.
I had a look at the Portsmouth Ladies whilst I was there. I don't think they'll be letting many in.
-
For about half a second, the title of this thread made me think it was about World of Warcraft.
-
We are going to struggle, we have to have 8 home growns in out 25.
Delfouneso
Alrighton
Agbonlahor
Clark
Wieman
Bannan
Lichaj
Delph.
This means non of these players can go out on loan to get experience,
Martin will not use them we know that, so it's a stupid rule!
-
The rule is
you must name a 25 man squad
8 must be homegrown
Homegrown means been with club for three years before 21st birthday.
Homegrown does not mean British of English, they can be any nationality.
So we are fucked with our wage bill on players who won't make squad!
-
We've got squillions of home grown players. Nobody any good (or otherwise, Emile) won't get a squad place unless they've left.
-
The rule is
you must name a 25 man squad
8 must be homegrown
Homegrown means been with club for three years before 21st birthday.
Homegrown does not mean British of English, they can be any nationality.
So we are fucked with our wage bill on players who won't make squad!
WRONG!
Scudamore says: The definition of home grown is trained for three years under the age of 21 by somebody in the English and Welsh professional system.
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_5560131,00.html
-
We've got squillions of home grown players. Nobody any good (or otherwise, Emile) won't get a squad place unless they've left.
Heskey is not homegrown,
Nor is warnock sidders NRC ash young or Milner!
Homegrown means been with club 3 years prior to 21st
-
The rule is
you must name a 25 man squad
8 must be homegrown
Homegrown means been with club for three years before 21st birthday.
Homegrown does not mean British of English, they can be any nationality.
So we are fucked with our wage bill on players who won't make squad!
WRONG!
Scudamore says: The definition of home grown is trained for three years under the age of 21 by somebody in the English and Welsh professional system.
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_5560131,00.html
Hope your right and I've mis read it,
-
Sorry guys misread it, I was abit baffled by that originally!
-
So "homegrown" includes the likes of Ireland and Fabregas, whichever team they play for, or are transferred to, in the Premier League? Would Hitzelsperger qualify too?
-
So "homegrown" includes the likes of Ireland and Fabregas, whichever team they play for, or are transferred to, in the Premier League? Would Hitzelsperger qualify too?
Yep. Fabregas, Ireland and Der Hammer are homegrown, Owen Hargreaves of Manchester United and England is not.
-
Irony is that 25 is exactly the squad size used in Major League Baseball - but you can bring in a replacement from your Minor League teams as long as some either goes in the opposite direction or is placed on a disabled list for 15/30/60 days.
-
25 man squad and its effect on us
Zero effect on us mate - we use the same 11 or 12 players for every game regardless.
-
That's only a good idea if you dont intend using the U21s much and I'd hope we do because ours are quite god.
Imagine all those McGraths coming through at once :)
-
I'm pretty sure that the Championship transfer deadline is at the end of September (for loans), so I'm guessing any players not in the Premier teams 25 will be loaned out for anything they can get.
I'm really surprised, I thought with this rule coming into place would have had the transfer market into frenzy. Its had the exact opposite effect.
-
I'm pretty sure that the Championship transfer deadline is at the end of September (for loans), so I'm guessing any players not in the Premier teams 25 will be loaned out for anything they can get.
I'm really surprised, I thought with this rule coming into place would have had the transfer market into frenzy. Its had the exact opposite effect.
Apart from Man City, no one has any money to spend; a bigish transfer, such as Milner to City for instance, would probably lead to several other deals.
-
I don't buy that, its holding us back yes. But have Arsenal, Spurs, Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool etc got to do with Man Citys spending?
-
We sell Milner, get say, Ireland and have money to spend on a replacement for Young. Liverpool buy Young, sell on their tat to someone else. We buy Keane, giving Spurs the money to buy someone twice as good for half the money, etc and so on.
-
I don't buy that, its holding us back yes. But have Arsenal, Spurs, Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool etc got to do with Man Citys spending?
I'd speculate they're holding back until Man City are finished - don't want them going after their targets.
-
I don't buy that, its holding us back yes. But have Arsenal, Spurs, Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool etc got to do with Man Citys spending?
I'd speculate they're holding back until Man City are finished - don't want them going after their targets.
Good point.
Man City also have some decent players who will not fit into the 25 man rule, players who would do most clubs a decent job and if you get them on a loan and City continue to pay most of their wages its a super deal.
then of course they do have so much money. do they care about paying high wages for players to sit in the stand. I'd guess not but I'm sure the players mostly want to play.
-
I don't buy that, its holding us back yes. But have Arsenal, Spurs, Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool etc got to do with Man Citys spending?
That's a great pun!
-
Glad someone noticed :)
-
We sell Milner, get say, Ireland and have money to spend on a replacement for Young. Liverpool buy Young, sell on their tat to someone else. We buy Keane, giving Spurs the money to buy someone twice as good for half the money, etc and so on.
Nah, we have more than adequate cover for Young so don't think we are delaying the deal, not for that reason anyway. As for spurs and Keane, They have bought no one, doubt they are waiting for £6m from us before they start their spending spree!
If anything everone should be rushing to buy Man Citys players on the cheap, as a lot of them wont be getting a squad number.
-
is anyone going to be able to buy on the cheap though, especially wage wise and wages seem to now be many clubs main consideration.
Judging by Luke Youngs rebutal of Liverpool and other transfers that have fallen through in lower leagues perhaps the new rule is empowering players more than normal.
-
is anyone going to be able to buy on the cheap though, especially wage wise and wages seem to now be many clubs main consideration.
Judging by Luke Youngs rebutal of Liverpool and other transfers that have fallen through in lower leagues perhaps the new rule is empowering players more than normal.
I thought Luke Young turned down the move to Liverpool as he didn't want to move his family up there.
-
Wenger is moaning about it, typical.
-
will be a fantastic rule because it will stop the top clubs just hoarding players and will mean one in one out for most clubs.
so we see at Man city if they get Milner it would mean they should sell Ireland
also another factor is that a lot more players will go out on loan especially those over 21 and championship clubs could pick up some deals.
people forget how revolutionary this idea is which is basically two packaged up as one and will mean fundamental change.
Wenger is moaning as he can no longer pack his squad out with cheaper foreign signings hoping some work out
-
Wenger is moaning as he can no longer pack his squad out with cheaper foreign signings hoping some work out
First of all, that's a ridiculous summary of what Wenger does. Secondly, the rule doesn't affect his usual operation you can have as many u-21 players as you want.
Wenger's criticisms are interesting, as they often are. He basically says the big clubs always had 25 top players anyway, and that this will change nothing except putting some players in a very awkward position where nobody wants them. Now, I don't agree entirely, but I just can't stand this dismissing of Wenger's comments when he is probably in the top four or five managers ever seen on these isles and probably worth listening to.
-
Wenger is moaning as he can no longer pack his squad out with cheaper foreign signings hoping some work out
First of all, that's a ridiculous summary of what Wenger does. Secondly, the rule doesn't affect his usual operation you can have as many u-21 players as you want.
so why is he moaning then, he is the reason the England team are struggling he refuses to buy English or British, packs it out with younger foreign players like Vela and Eduardo who everyone knows can not stand up to the rigours of PL football.
This is the guy remember who claims we were too physical against them, so his credibility is lacking
-
To quote the man himself "I'll take responsibility for all the faults of English football if you want me to". He has nothing to do with it, except for training up some good young English players over the last few years. He doesn't sign English players because, by and large, he doesn't think they're good enough or value for money - and by and large, he's right.
-
Isn't there a rule you can add more players to the squad, but they have to be under 21?
-
Yes. You have 25 players (8 of whom must have spent three years in the youth development squad at a English or Welsh club) plus as many players under 21 as you like.
It's great for us!
-
Wenger is moaning as he can no longer pack his squad out with cheaper foreign signings hoping some work out
First of all, that's a ridiculous summary of what Wenger does. Secondly, the rule doesn't affect his usual operation you can have as many u-21 players as you want.
so why is he moaning then, he is the reason the England team are struggling he refuses to buy English or British, packs it out with younger foreign players like Vela and Eduardo who everyone knows can not stand up to the rigours of PL football.
This is the guy remember who claims we were too physical against them, so his credibility is lacking
Why should Wenger give a fuck about the England team, though? It isn't his job to do what is best for the national team. His job is to run Arsenal, and in terms of the "total manager" role over the last decade or so, he has been absolutely legendardy, one of the best all-round managers we've ever had in our game.
If you want to point the finger at people responsible for the malaise of the England team, you should start with some very English people, like Sam Allardyce, who pioneered the art of buying cheap but not very good foreign "talent" who keep decent English players away from first team football.
If the England team is bereft of talent, it isn't because Wenger buys people like Henry or Arshavin. It is because managers like Allardyce (not just him, and not all English, but a lot of them are) buy utter mediocrity like El Hadj Diouf, Abdoulaye Feye, Papa Bouba Diop, John Utaka, Ellmander etc etc.
The issue is not the top level players, it is in the totally ordinary players who are filling squads without any real distinction whilst English players mook about in the championship
-
Yes. You have 25 players (8 of whom must have spent three years in the youth development squad at a English or Welsh club) plus as many players under 21 as you like.
It's great for us!
The rules however won't stop poaching. This rule was somewhat created out of the mess Chelsea found themselves in last season. The rules don't stop big clubs poaching talented kids at 14 or 15 from anywhere in the world and making them part of their own development system. The rule states that the player must have played in the English development system for 3 years by age 21. Doesn't say the player has to be native to that land. In theory the rule should benefit our national team. I'm not convinced it will.
-
I agree with that. It won't help the national team but we are going to have little difficulty in meeting the criterion.
Good Article from The Grauniad (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/jul/30/premier-league-academy-homegrown-players)
England expects as Premier League gears up for a homegrown revolution
New rules that force clubs to play more youngsters should benefit the national team but some managers are not happy
It is in the soul-searching aftermath of an England failure at a major tournament that thoughts invariably turn towards the next generation, the young players who will one day, at long last, drive the nation to glory. The debate, however, can lead to further introspection. In the Premier League years, with clubs' squads bloated by overseas players, where is the opportunity for homegrown talent?
Things could be about to change or, at least, a step is to be taken in what is hoped will prove the right direction. As of this season, following Premier League legislation that has been some years in the making, clubs will be forced to include eight homegrown players in a senior squad of no more than 25.
Homegrown players are defined as those having been trained at a club or clubs in England or Wales for three years before the end of the season in which they became 21.
Homegrown players do not have to be English. Cesc Fábregas, for example, Arsenal's Spain midfielder, qualifies, having moved to north London as a 16-year-old. It ought to be pointed out, though, that of the 300 scholars currently at Premier League academies (the 16-18 age group) 245 are English.
Under the new legislation, clubs are also permitted to register and play an unlimited number of under-21s. The theory is that when injuries and suspensions bite in the senior squad, managers will have to turn to youth. It is expected that particularly over the second half of the season, substitute benches will be dotted with academy players.
If clubs cannot fill their quota of eight homegrown players, then their senior squads will be short. The champions Chelsea, for example, only have five homegrown players (John Terry, Ashley Cole, Frank Lampard, Ross Turnbull and Michael Mancienne). As things stand, the manager, Carlo Ancelotti, will have to name a senior squad of 22 and opportunities will increase for his under-21s. That the players most likely to step up are Gaël Kakuta, Fabio Borini, Jeffrey Bruma and Patrick van Aanholt – in other words, overseas youngsters – is a moot point, and one reflected at other clubs. English players, though, must embrace the competition.
"We'll reflect on this regulation in five or 10 years' time and think it was exactly the right thing to do," said Huw Jennings, the Fulham academy director. "It's not just about the England team, although that is the focus after the World Cup, it's about young players, who are the long-term lifeblood of the game and it's about strengthening the Premier League. Young players should emerge on merit, not because of tokenism, but if we have fewer players in the squads it will create more opportunities."
It is hoped the new regulations will have pluses that go beyond the encouragement of homegrown and academy players and provide clubs with the incentive to continue investing in their youth-development programmes. They might also discourage them from stockpiling senior players and so offer an economic benefit.
"While the sporting factor of encouraging youth development was the main driver behind [the new regulations], it is anticipated that there will also be financial benefits in operating with a smaller pool of contracted players and a higher number of young players developed in England," said Mike Foster, the Premier League general secretary. "It is also hoped that a by-product of the new system will be a bigger pool of players for England to choose from."
But not everyone is convinced. "They mess about with everything, don't they?" said the Tottenham Hotspur manager, Harry Redknapp. "And what difference is it going to make? It's no different really. If the young players are good enough, they'll come through. And if you're having to play them just because they're young and English but they're not good enough, then the league won't improve. They've got to be good enough, wherever they're from.
"You might also get some kids who get in the 25 and then put their feet under the table and don't work on their game. You've got to deserve to be in there, rather than just having them for the sake of it, token players."
One of the principal arguments against the legislation is that it could leave players over the age of 21 out in the cold. If they are not named in the 25, they cannot play until squad changes are permitted in the next transfer window. The Manchester City manager, Roberto Mancini, has 32 senior players at his disposal – following the sale of Javier Garrido to Lazio today and he is under pressure to sell seven of them before the end of August.
"I am quite surprised the players' union accepted this rule as it could put many players out of a job," said the Arsenal manager, Arsène Wenger. "They want to fight against unemployment but they stop us employing footballers. There is no room to move [in the transfer market]. Is 25 enough, given the injuries? It is an artificial rule that I don't like."
"One of the worries," added Jennings, "is the premium that will be placed on the movement from club to club of players who qualify as homegrown. Their price will be driven up, there would be an inflated view of them and I don't think that is healthy."
Concerns have also been expressed about clubs effectively stockpiling their under-21 players to guard against selection crises, rather than loan them out to gain the first-team minutes that can be vital for their development at that stage. It is not always possible to insert instant recall clauses into loan deals.
Yet it ought not to be forgotten that it was the clubs who voted in the legislation at their September meeting of last year. "I've heard that the [club] owners are only interested in the product, but they sanctioned this," said Ged Roddy, the Premier League's director of academies. "They recognise that if we can develop our own players, then we have a much stronger product. We want to get more homegrown players into our first teams. The more we do, the more chance we have of an outstanding England team in the future. This is more than a half-step forward."
-
An excellent piece.
Will we, at last, be seeing the value of senior players (and their wage demands) start to plummet? I hope so.
no doubt agents will be focussing more and more on getting their grubby hands around transfers of youth players but every silver lining has a black cloud I suppose.
Interesting that the idea of salary caps has been largely discounted due to potential legal minefields yet this new system has been implemented.