Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dave.woodhall on July 19, 2010, 11:49:53 PM
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An update.
I am carrying out an anonymous survey on fans' views towards gay football players. This is in response to the Premier League dropping a campaign on this issue and Max Clifford claiming that 'football is steeped in homophobia'. We want to assess how fans feel about this.
Gordon Taylor, the chief of the Professional Footballers’ Association (PFA), has replied to the interim results of the topfan online survey of fans’ views on homophobia and gay players and we are happy to set the facts straight. Mr Taylor writes: “Never at any time have I withdrawn support for an anti homophobia campaign and in fact quite the opposite.” As an organization, the PFA states: “We welcome the opportunity to lead the field in this area, as we have done with racism ... we do not have any members of the PFA who have openly declared they are gay. If a player approached us regarding this matter there are support mechanisms in place to ensure the player has the full support of the Association.”
Check www.topfan.co.uk for the full statement, latest results and make your contribution to Phase 2 of the project. Here are a couple of recent newspaper stories on the research: http://bit.ly/blCH5n (The Yorkshire Post) and http://bit.ly/doJTbY (The Sunday Herald)
Jamie Clelland.
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we do not have any members of the PFA who have openly declared they are gay.
That is the problem, no one dare put themselves forward. If you go back to the 1980s and the start of the backlash against racism players like John Barnes and Viv Anderson had to put up with horrendous abuse but they continued to stand for what they believed in. Thankfully racism is not an issue as much in football today and those players deserve credit for that. If the anti-homophobia campaign is to work then a new generation of players need to step forward.
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we do not have any members of the PFA who have openly declared they are gay.
That is the problem, no one dare put themselves forward. If you go back to the 1980s and the start of the backlash against racism players like John Barnes and Viv Anderson had to put up with horrendous abuse but they continued to stand for what they believed in. Thankfully racism is not an issue as much in football today and those players deserve credit for that. If the anti-homophobia campaign is to work then a new generation of players need to step forward.
It's not quite the same though, is it?
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we do not have any members of the PFA who have openly declared they are gay.
That is the problem, no one dare put themselves forward. If you go back to the 1980s and the start of the backlash against racism players like John Barnes and Viv Anderson had to put up with horrendous abuse but they continued to stand for what they believed in. Thankfully racism is not an issue as much in football today and those players deserve credit for that. If the anti-homophobia campaign is to work then a new generation of players need to step forward.
The thing is, it was impossible for players like John Barnes etc. to deny they were black! It was pretty obvious. Therefore they had to either confront it or quit the game altogether. Luckily they chose to former.
It's rather easier to hide the fact that you are gay, common sense tells us that there are gay Premier League footballers, and I'm just as sure that their team mates know this and are happy to keep it a secret.
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Can i ask why it matters whether we know what someones sexual preference is - why does it have to be an issue, surely the more we open it up the more certain sections will be more intolerant
How does it have an effect on a players ability?
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Can i ask why it matters whether we know what someones sexual preference is - why does it have to be an issue, surely the more we open it up the more certain sections will be more intolerant
How does it have an effect on a players ability?
It doesn't matter, but a player (or anyone for that matter) shouldn't have to feel they can't be open about being gay, which, unfortunately, is how it is.
Any player who comes out will have to endure endless, moronic chanting aimed at them i.e. Matthew Upson whenever he comes to Villa Park.
It's not an issue at all. However, as some people did (do) not like those not of the same skin colour because they think it's wrong, this is also the case with homosexuals. Some people think it's wrong. Some people are stupid.
However, it's very rare for a racist incident to be found at football nowadays, so it'd be nice to think the same could happen for homosexuals in football (or in any walk of life for that mtter).
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Can i ask why it matters whether we know what someones sexual preference is - why does it have to be an issue, surely the more we open it up the more certain sections will be more intolerant
How does it have an effect on a players ability?
It matters to the extent that people use being gay as a reference for abuse of players. Whether they mean it or not. I am sure there are still thousands of racist football fans, but the opening of the issue (as DC said above; something you couldn't really hide from) has forced them to keep their mouths shut. Or hopefully for many, re-evaluate what they were really doing and change their attitudes.
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Homophobia is rife in society as a whole, not just football. You only have to read forums, including this one, to see that gay jokes are completely tolerated. There is a lot of "gay banter" at football grounds, which used to be race related, but seeing as that is being stamped out they have to offend some how, don't they.
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Any player who comes out will have to endure endless, moronic chanting aimed at them i.e. Matthew Upson whenever he comes to Villa Park.
The current chanting every week is endless and moronic enough. I don't think anyone would notice a difference.
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we do not have any members of the PFA who have openly declared they are gay.
That is the problem, no one dare put themselves forward. If you go back to the 1980s and the start of the backlash against racism players like John Barnes and Viv Anderson had to put up with horrendous abuse but they continued to stand for what they believed in. Thankfully racism is not an issue as much in football today and those players deserve credit for that. If the anti-homophobia campaign is to work then a new generation of players need to step forward.
The thing is, it was impossible for players like John Barnes etc. to deny they were black! It was pretty obvious. Therefore they had to either confront it or quit the game altogether. Luckily they chose to former.
It's rather easier to hide the fact that you are gay, common sense tells us that there are gay Premier League footballers, and I'm just as sure that their team mates know this and are happy to keep it a secret.
Another problem with the comparison with black players is that black players started to emerge into teams in ever increasing numbers. Taking a bit of a guess, I don't imagine that there are any more than half a dozen gay players in the whole of the Premier League, and I really wouldn't want to be the first one to admit to being gay. Whatever well meaning campaigns like this aim to do, he'd be absolutely destroyed. I think we're a good few years off having openly gay players I'm afraid. I don't agree with Dave that players would let it be known to their team mates either, it just wouldn't be possible to keep it a secret for more than 5 minutes.
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Personally I think it's outrageous that not one single one of these hero worshiped multi millionaires has got the bollox to come out and be honest with their fans. Surely they owe it to the thousands of troubled and bullied teenagers and young men going through homophobic bullying every day of their lives to show such courage.
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I reckon a gay player would be as worried about the stick he'd get from other players as he would from the fans. Imagine having to deal with a twat like John Terry if you are openly gay. It's easy to tell them that they should stand up for themselves when you're not the one who will have to endure it every single day.
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Don't think its anyone's business but their own personally. private life should be private as long as its not illegal, but then i tend to find all these player kiss 'n tell stories a yawn as well and they seem to sell truckloads of papers...
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Personally I think it's outrageous that not one single one of these hero worshiped multi millionaires has got the bollox to come out and be honest with their fans. Surely they owe it to the thousands of troubled and bullied teenagers and young men going through homophobic bullying every day of their lives to show such courage.
Its not just in football. Male sportstars who have "come out" (for want of a better term) tend to be at or near the end of their careers (eg John Amaechi, Billy Bean, Gareth Thomas et al).
Females in sport seem to be able to be open about their sexuality. However, this might be because the groundbreaking was done earlier (eg by Billy-Jean & Martina) than is the case for male sportstars.
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I may be somewhat naive here, but.....why is there such a desire for people to "come out"? Surely sexuality is a private thing anyhow. I daresay many posters on here are gay or bisexual however I do not see the point of them openly expressing that in the public domain. I agree that no one should be persecuted for their colour, religion or sexuality but human nature is such that there will always be those who have no tolerance for others different to themselves.
Bloody hell I have just read the post above and find myself agreeing with Greg :)
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Mad really isn't it, this being 2010 and all.
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A few years back, a rugby league player in Sydney came out of the closet. Just as his new Puma ad came out ("I am King"). You can imagine how that particular image got defaced and laughed at.
You'd like to think in this day and age that a gay man can come out without it being a big deal. Sadly, we are far from that.
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I reckon a gay player would be as worried about the stick he'd get from other players as he would from the fans. Imagine having to deal with a twat like John Terry if you are openly gay. It's easy to tell them that they should stand up for themselves when you're not the one who will have to endure it every single day.
Indeed. Just look at the stick le Saux got from that fat twat Fowler for daring to read the Guardian. The first time a tackle went astray in training it'd be "bender" this and "poof" that.
The fact is, it's just an occupation where you're unlikely to find many openly gay employees. I had a gay mate in Wigan who was a quantity surveyor, and working around building sites, there's no way on earth he'd have admitted to it at work, no way at all.
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Well I think that they're all cowards.
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I may be somewhat naive here, but.....why is there such a desire for people to "come out"? Surely sexuality is a private thing anyhow. I daresay many posters on here are gay or bisexual however I do not see the point of them openly expressing that in the public domain. I agree that no one should be persecuted for their colour, religion or sexuality but human nature is such that there will always be those who have no tolerance for others different to themselves.
Bloody hell I have just read the post above and find myself agreeing with Greg :)
I remember that questionnaire started with a particularly daft question, which was "should gay footballers come out". Surely there's no answer to that - some might want to, some might not.
The thing to remember is that "in the closet" footballers also have a life outside football.
They'll be living a lie outside the game as well as in it, and considering that some of them start with clubs age 10, and finish age 35, that's, what, a third or a quarter so of their life spent being forced to be someone they're not.
The ideal situation would be one whereby they'd feel comfortable enough within the football environment to come out, if they wanted to. You only have to see the moronic chanting at Upson year in, year out to realise that that isn't the case by a long chalk
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Well I think that they're all cowards.
Seriously?
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Yeah, it takes one brave man to start to change that. First one, then two then three and then, seasons later admittedly, gay footballers will become accepted by society as black players have.
It just takes ONE! Yet despite the bravado of the 2010 playing generation, none it would seem are brave enough. Shame on them!
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I've always found the vocabulary in these debates interesting. Why are you deemed "tolerant" if you are not racist or homophobic? Toleration implies they are doing or are something wrong, surely?
And being "homophobic" implies that all people who dislike gays are afraid of them. Surely this can't be true of all "homophobes".
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What Gay players?
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maybe they've seen all the crap sol campbell gets and thought 'nah'? i don't even know if he is gay but that would put anyone off.
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Out of interest, Lucky Eddie, is there anything in your life that you'd be feel uncomfortable broadcasting to the world? No? Maybe? Yes? Go on, do it - tell us your biggest secret. Let's see how we - and you - cope.
And one player, Justin Fashanu, did come out. No one followed him. And the tale ended tragically.
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Yeah, it takes one brave man to start to change that. First one, then two then three and then, seasons later admittedly, gay footballers will become accepted by society as black players have.
It just takes ONE! Yet despite the bravado of the 2010 playing generation, none it would seem are brave enough. Shame on them!
One did come out a few years ago, he ended up committing suicide.
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To be fair, maybe Luck Eddie is implying that it might be slightly easier for a Premiership millionaire player to "come out" with all the support he would get from celebs, Max Clifford etc. than a run-of-the-mill player.
However, I have no doubt that the Sun would have all sorts of crap headlines lined up. And unlike "out" actors, popstars and the aforementioned lesbian tennis players, the changing rooms and crowds are a totally different environment.
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I think the 'ladish' atmosphere football generates doesn't attract gay people to the game. Of the gay friends I have, and admittedly it's not a big list, none of them like football. So, in order for there to be gay footballers now, they would need to have a passion for and take up the game at a young age, which I find unlikely. Of course, those that were unsure of their sexuality at an early age and are now finding they are gay, might well be playing somewhere.
Sorry if that sounds a bit homophobic, it's honestly not meant like that, but I just don't see young gay men being drawn to football.
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One did come out a few years ago, he ended up committing suicide.
The two things are unconnected though. He killed himself because he was accused of sexually assaulting someone.
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I think the 'ladish' atmosphere football generates doesn't attract gay people to the game. Of the gay friends I have, and admittedly it's not a big list, none of them like football. So, in order for there to be gay footballers now, they would need to have a passion for and take up the game at a young age, which I find unlikely. Of course, those that were unsure of their sexuality at an early age and are now finding they are gay, might well be playing somewhere.
Sorry if that sounds a bit homophobic, it's honestly not meant like that, but I just don't see young gay men being drawn to football.
I agree John, I don't think there are enough gay footballers to make it worthwhile for somebody to put his head above the parapet. It's not like being the first is going to pave the way for dozens more to come out is it?
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There is a bunch of gays sit infront of my old seat in the lower holte. Before the game they spend the whole time giggling and tickling each other.
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One did come out a few years ago, he ended up committing suicide.
The two things are unconnected though. He killed himself because he was accused of sexually assaulting someone.
I think all charges against him had already been dropped?
And presumably the allegations were made against him in the first place because he was a famous footballer? which does connect the 2 things.
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One did come out a few years ago, he ended up committing suicide.
The two things are unconnected though. He killed himself because he was accused of sexually assaulting someone.
I think all charges against him had already been dropped?
And presumably the allegations were made against him in the first place because he was a famous footballer? which does connect the 2 things.
Looking at Wiki, it was a 17 year old boy in the States who accused Fashanu. I therefore doubt his status as a footballer made much of a difference really.
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Looking at Wiki, it was a 17 year old boy in the States who accused Fashanu. I therefore doubt his status as a footballer made much of a difference really.
His depression will have had a lot to do with the abuse he got from both crowds and fellow professionals though.
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Looking at Wiki, it was a 17 year old boy in the States who accused Fashanu. I therefore doubt his status as a footballer made much of a difference really.
His depression will have had a lot to do with the abuse he got from both crowds and fellow professionals though.
Including his own brother, utter scumbag and waste of good oxygen John Fashanu.
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One did come out a few years ago, he ended up committing suicide.
The two things are unconnected though. He killed himself because he was accused of sexually assaulting someone.
I think all charges against him had already been dropped?
And presumably the allegations were made against him in the first place because he was a famous footballer? which does connect the 2 things.
Looking at Wiki, it was a 17 year old boy in the States who accused Fashanu. I therefore doubt his status as a footballer made much of a difference really.
maybe
But looking at press articles from the time, Fashanu left a note, claiming the the 17 year old was blackmailing him. Might imply that the kid was aware of Fashanu's status? not sure.
What was scandalous was the way he was bullied by Clough for being openly gay.
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I agree Chico, and that's part of the reason I don't buy into the whole Clough mythology thing.
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I would imagine being gay in normal situations is hard enough, the pressures in this more tolerant times still have to be high.
To add to those pressures already associated by being in the media spotlight is daft, unless circumstances force the issue.
Football like any team sport is a hotbed of verbal and often physical bullying, be it in the name of comradeship, team spirit, or whatever, so I'd surmise, to prosper in such a society, a hard skin and an ability to give as good as you can is essential.
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I think the 'ladish' atmosphere football generates doesn't attract gay people to the game. Of the gay friends I have, and admittedly it's not a big list, none of them like football. So, in order for there to be gay footballers now, they would need to have a passion for and take up the game at a young age, which I find unlikely. Of course, those that were unsure of their sexuality at an early age and are now finding they are gay, might well be playing somewhere.
Sorry if that sounds a bit homophobic, it's honestly not meant like that, but I just don't see young gay men being drawn to football.
I agree John, I don't think there are enough gay footballers to make it worthwhile for somebody to put his head above the parapet. It's not like being the first is going to pave the way for dozens more to come out is it?
What do you base that on? The government figure for percentage of gay men in the UK is 6%. Why wouldn't there be a similar figure for footballers?
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Well I think that they're all cowards.
I think that makes you a bit of an idiot.
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I think the 'ladish' atmosphere football generates doesn't attract gay people to the game. Of the gay friends I have, and admittedly it's not a big list, none of them like football. So, in order for there to be gay footballers now, they would need to have a passion for and take up the game at a young age, which I find unlikely. Of course, those that were unsure of their sexuality at an early age and are now finding they are gay, might well be playing somewhere.
Sorry if that sounds a bit homophobic, it's honestly not meant like that, but I just don't see young gay men being drawn to football.
I agree John, I don't think there are enough gay footballers to make it worthwhile for somebody to put his head above the parapet. It's not like being the first is going to pave the way for dozens more to come out is it?
What do you base that on? The government figure for percentage of gay men in the UK is 6%. Why wouldn't there be a similar figure for footballers?
6% sounds low to me.
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I think the 'ladish' atmosphere football generates doesn't attract gay people to the game. Of the gay friends I have, and admittedly it's not a big list, none of them like football. So, in order for there to be gay footballers now, they would need to have a passion for and take up the game at a young age, which I find unlikely. Of course, those that were unsure of their sexuality at an early age and are now finding they are gay, might well be playing somewhere.
Sorry if that sounds a bit homophobic, it's honestly not meant like that, but I just don't see young gay men being drawn to football.
I agree John, I don't think there are enough gay footballers to make it worthwhile for somebody to put his head above the parapet. It's not like being the first is going to pave the way for dozens more to come out is it?
What do you base that on? The government figure for percentage of gay men in the UK is 6%. Why wouldn't there be a similar figure for footballers?
Because as John says, it's not a sport that attracts many gay men. Government figures show that nearly 4% of the UK's population is made up of people of Indian, Pakistani or Bangladeshi origin, but the actual percentage of professional footballers in this country from that group of people is pretty close to zero.
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I may be somewhat naive here, but.....why is there such a desire for people to "come out"?
I don't think there is. The point is that it's something that people feel they need to hide and cover up because of the consequences they would face in the footballing world. It has nothing to do with shouting it from the roof tops.
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Because as John says, it's not a sport that attracts many gay men. Government figures show that nearly 4% of the UK's population is made up of people of Indian, Pakistani or Bangladeshi origin, but the actual percentage of professional footballers in this country from that group of people is pretty close to zero.
But surely that is because of social, cultural and historical factors, with Asian Britons traditionally preferring cricket, plus the history of racism in the game, whereas sexuality crosses all cultural groupings.
Although there's also an element of chicken and egg at play, I guess, in that if the sport doesn't attract gay men, it is probably because of the homophobia that exists around it.
Then there's the fact that whilst it is pretty easy to spot that a person is Asian, it is not so easy to identify a person's sexuality.
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I think the 'ladish' atmosphere football generates doesn't attract gay people to the game. Of the gay friends I have, and admittedly it's not a big list, none of them like football. So, in order for there to be gay footballers now, they would need to have a passion for and take up the game at a young age, which I find unlikely. Of course, those that were unsure of their sexuality at an early age and are now finding they are gay, might well be playing somewhere.
Sorry if that sounds a bit homophobic, it's honestly not meant like that, but I just don't see young gay men being drawn to football.
I agree John, I don't think there are enough gay footballers to make it worthwhile for somebody to put his head above the parapet. It's not like being the first is going to pave the way for dozens more to come out is it?
What do you base that on? The government figure for percentage of gay men in the UK is 6%. Why wouldn't there be a similar figure for footballers?
6% sounds low to me.
Sounds high to me.
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I think the 'ladish' atmosphere football generates doesn't attract gay people to the game. Of the gay friends I have, and admittedly it's not a big list, none of them like football. So, in order for there to be gay footballers now, they would need to have a passion for and take up the game at a young age, which I find unlikely. Of course, those that were unsure of their sexuality at an early age and are now finding they are gay, might well be playing somewhere.
Sorry if that sounds a bit homophobic, it's honestly not meant like that, but I just don't see young gay men being drawn to football.
I agree John, I don't think there are enough gay footballers to make it worthwhile for somebody to put his head above the parapet. It's not like being the first is going to pave the way for dozens more to come out is it?
What do you base that on? The government figure for percentage of gay men in the UK is 6%. Why wouldn't there be a similar figure for footballers?
Because as John says, it's not a sport that attracts many gay men. .
Try telling that to these people.
http://www.gfsn.org.uk/
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Because as John says, it's not a sport that attracts many gay men. Government figures show that nearly 4% of the UK's population is made up of people of Indian, Pakistani or Bangladeshi origin, but the actual percentage of professional footballers in this country from that group of people is pretty close to zero.
But surely that is because of social, cultural and historical factors, with Asian Britons traditionally preferring cricket, plus the history of racism in the game, whereas sexuality crosses all cultural groupings.
Although there's also an element of chicken and egg at play, I guess, in that if the sport doesn't attract gay men, it is probably because of the homophobia that exists around it.
Then there's the fact that whilst it is pretty easy to spot that a person is Asian, it is not so easy to identify a person's sexuality.
As good a word as any to desribe what I mean.
Young gay men have their own social and cultural scene, which football is very much not a part of. For the same reason we don't get many of the aristocracy playing football we don't get many gays - it generally doesn't appeal to them.
If you want to say that's part of the problem, then I'd agree with you, but you can never take away that 'knockabout humour' from dressing rooms or the game as a whole.
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Because as John says, it's not a sport that attracts many gay men. Government figures show that nearly 4% of the UK's population is made up of people of Indian, Pakistani or Bangladeshi origin, but the actual percentage of professional footballers in this country from that group of people is pretty close to zero.
But surely that is because of social, cultural and historical factors, with Asian Britons traditionally preferring cricket, plus the history of racism in the game, whereas sexuality crosses all cultural groupings.
Although there's also an element of chicken and egg at play, I guess, in that if the sport doesn't attract gay men, it is probably because of the homophobia that exists around it.
Then there's the fact that whilst it is pretty easy to spot that a person is Asian, it is not so easy to identify a person's sexuality.
As good a word as any to desribe what I mean.
Young gay men have their own social and cultural scene, which football is very much not a part of. For the same reason we don't get many of the aristocracy playing football we don't get many gays - it generally doesn't appeal to them.
If you want to say that's part of the problem, then I'd agree with you, but you can never take away that 'knockabout humour' from dressing rooms or the game as a whole.
top class footballers tend to begin playing organised football at a very young age, long before they have any awareness of their sexuality. If they are playing at an elite youth level when they do become aware of their sexuality in their teens, isn't it more likely that they just learn to keep schtum?
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top class footballers tend to begin playing organised football at a very young age, long before they have any awareness of their sexuality. If they are playing at an elite youth level when they do become aware of their sexuality in their teens, isn't it more likely that they just learn to keep schtum?
I'd say they're statistically more likely not to make it as a footballer in the first place.
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top class footballers tend to begin playing organised football at a very young age, long before they have any awareness of their sexuality. If they are playing at an elite youth level when they do become aware of their sexuality in their teens, isn't it more likely that they just learn to keep schtum?
I'd say they're statistically more likely not to make it as a footballer in the first place.
Why?
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top class footballers tend to begin playing organised football at a very young age, long before they have any awareness of their sexuality. If they are playing at an elite youth level when they do become aware of their sexuality in their teens, isn't it more likely that they just learn to keep schtum?
I'd say they're statistically more likely not to make it as a footballer in the first place.
I don't see why.
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top class footballers tend to begin playing organised football at a very young age, long before they have any awareness of their sexuality. If they are playing at an elite youth level when they do become aware of their sexuality in their teens, isn't it more likely that they just learn to keep schtum?
I'd say they're statistically more likely not to make it as a footballer in the first place.
Why?
Because young English players, whether straight, gay, black white or whatever are statistically unlikely to make it as a Premier League player. For every player that does make it, I bet there are twenty that have been released.
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top class footballers tend to begin playing organised football at a very young age, long before they have any awareness of their sexuality. If they are playing at an elite youth level when they do become aware of their sexuality in their teens, isn't it more likely that they just learn to keep schtum?
I'd say they're statistically more likely not to make it as a footballer in the first place.
Why?
Because young English players, whether straight, gay, black white or whatever are statistically unlikely to make it as a Premier League player. For every player that does make it, I bet there are twenty that have been released.
Nobody mentioned English, just "Top Class footballers"
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top class footballers tend to begin playing organised football at a very young age, long before they have any awareness of their sexuality. If they are playing at an elite youth level when they do become aware of their sexuality in their teens, isn't it more likely that they just learn to keep schtum?
In situations like that, I'd imagine they would find themselves moving away from football as their sexuality emerges.
Imagine you just realise you're gay and your team has a player that cracks 'arse bandit' jokes in the dressing room, wouldn't you be less inclined to keep playing? In an ideal world the player making the jokes, which would be relatively 'innocent' as he did not know a gay person was present, should be kicked out. But in order to do that the lad would have to come forward, which he would be reluctant to do. It's a similar story in all walks of life, but in the alpha male world of football I think the problem is magnified.
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I think that if they are straight or gay there private life should remain private because it's the football we look forward to i'm not bothered about there sexuality.
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top class footballers tend to begin playing organised football at a very young age, long before they have any awareness of their sexuality. If they are playing at an elite youth level when they do become aware of their sexuality in their teens, isn't it more likely that they just learn to keep schtum?
In situations like that, I'd imagine they would find themselves moving away from football as their sexuality emerges.
Imagine you just realise you're gay and your team has a player that cracks 'arse bandit' jokes in the dressing room, wouldn't you be less inclined to keep playing? In an ideal world the player making the jokes, which would be relatively 'innocent' as he did not know a gay person was present, should be kicked out. But in order to do that the lad would have to come forward, which he would be reluctant to do. It's a similar story in all walks of life, but in the alpha male world of football I think the problem is magnified.
That's an indication of how attitudes to homophobia still need a bit of work.
It isn't acceptable to be racist just because there aren't any black people around, so surely, strictly speaking, the same thing should apply to homophobia?
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I wasn't suggesting it was OK without a gay person around, just that it wasn't intentional bullying towards them.
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top class footballers tend to begin playing organised football at a very young age, long before they have any awareness of their sexuality. If they are playing at an elite youth level when they do become aware of their sexuality in their teens, isn't it more likely that they just learn to keep schtum?
In situations like that, I'd imagine they would find themselves moving away from football as their sexuality emerges.
Imagine you just realise you're gay and your team has a player that cracks 'arse bandit' jokes in the dressing room, wouldn't you be less inclined to keep playing? In an ideal world the player making the jokes, which would be relatively 'innocent' as he did not know a gay person was present, should be kicked out. But in order to do that the lad would have to come forward, which he would be reluctant to do. It's a similar story in all walks of life, but in the alpha male world of football I think the problem is magnified.
That's an indication of how attitudes to homophobia still need a bit of work.
It isn't acceptable to be racist just because there aren't any black people around, so surely, strictly speaking, the same thing should apply to homophobia?
It should, but society is nowhere near at that level yet.
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Yeah, it takes one brave man to start to change that. First one, then two then three and then, seasons later admittedly, gay footballers will become accepted by society as black players have.
It just takes ONE! Yet despite the bravado of the 2010 playing generation, none it would seem are brave enough. Shame on them!
One did come out a few years ago, he ended up committing suicide.
Didn't he get a tremendous amount of stick from his brother?
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top class footballers tend to begin playing organised football at a very young age, long before they have any awareness of their sexuality. If they are playing at an elite youth level when they do become aware of their sexuality in their teens, isn't it more likely that they just learn to keep schtum?
In situations like that, I'd imagine they would find themselves moving away from football as their sexuality emerges.
Imagine you just realise you're gay and your team has a player that cracks 'arse bandit' jokes in the dressing room, wouldn't you be less inclined to keep playing? In an ideal world the player making the jokes, which would be relatively 'innocent' as he did not know a gay person was present, should be kicked out. But in order to do that the lad would have to come forward, which he would be reluctant to do. It's a similar story in all walks of life, but in the alpha male world of football I think the problem is magnified.
That's an indication of how attitudes to homophobia still need a bit of work.
It isn't acceptable to be racist just because there aren't any black people around, so surely, strictly speaking, the same thing should apply to homophobia?
It should, but society is nowhere near at that level yet.
I don't know about that.
I've got lots of gay friends, and met pretty much all of them through work. In each of those work places, there was a mix of gay and straight people, and not a hint of homophobia.
Maybe it is football that has the problem (or more of a problem, should I say, than society in general).
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Yeah, it takes one brave man to start to change that. First one, then two then three and then, seasons later admittedly, gay footballers will become accepted by society as black players have.
It just takes ONE! Yet despite the bravado of the 2010 playing generation, none it would seem are brave enough. Shame on them!
One did come out a few years ago, he ended up committing suicide.
Didn't he get a tremendous amount of stick from his brother?
Yep, as I mentioned earlier. John Fashanu publicly disowned him.
Interesting (and tragic) article on Fashanu here: http://stuartfrew.wordpress.com/2007/08/11/justin-fashanu/
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Yeah, it takes one brave man to start to change that. First one, then two then three and then, seasons later admittedly, gay footballers will become accepted by society as black players have.
It just takes ONE! Yet despite the bravado of the 2010 playing generation, none it would seem are brave enough. Shame on them!
You could argue its got fuck all to do with anyone do you declare yourself heterosexual?
"Hi I'm lucky Eddie just so you are aware I'm straight! Whats your sexual preference?"
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Yeah, it takes one brave man to start to change that. First one, then two then three and then, seasons later admittedly, gay footballers will become accepted by society as black players have.
It just takes ONE! Yet despite the bravado of the 2010 playing generation, none it would seem are brave enough. Shame on them!
You could argue its got fuck all to do with anyone do you declare yourself heterosexual?
"Hi I'm lucky Eddie just so you are aware I'm straight! Whats your sexual preference?"
So they should just pretend to be straight?
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Yeah, it takes one brave man to start to change that. First one, then two then three and then, seasons later admittedly, gay footballers will become accepted by society as black players have.
It just takes ONE! Yet despite the bravado of the 2010 playing generation, none it would seem are brave enough. Shame on them!
You could argue its got fuck all to do with anyone do you declare yourself heterosexual?
"Hi I'm lucky Eddie just so you are aware I'm straight! Whats your sexual preference?"
So they should just pretend to be straight?
That's not what he is saying at all. Just that it's no-one's business but the individual.
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Yeah, it takes one brave man to start to change that. First one, then two then three and then, seasons later admittedly, gay footballers will become accepted by society as black players have.
It just takes ONE! Yet despite the bravado of the 2010 playing generation, none it would seem are brave enough. Shame on them!
You could argue its got fuck all to do with anyone do you declare yourself heterosexual?
"Hi I'm lucky Eddie just so you are aware I'm straight! Whats your sexual preference?"
So they should just pretend to be straight?
That's not what he is saying at all. Just that it's no-one's business but the individual.
Well thats what they have to do and are currently doing.
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That's not what he is saying at all. Just that it's no-one's business but the individual.
Well thats what they have to do and are currently doing.
I'm not sure what your point is. I think we should have come far enough by no, that gay footballers can come out and tell the world. But we haven't and people shouldn't feel they have to, it's their choice.
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That's not what he is saying at all. Just that it's no-one's business but the individual.
Well thats what they have to do and are currently doing.
I'm not sure what your point is. I think we should have come far enough by no, that gay footballers can come out and tell the world. But we haven't and people shouldn't feel they have to, it's their choice.
My point is that gay players have to live a lie and do not have a choice.
I bet there are at least 1 dozen gay footballers in the PL who are pretending they're straight, i.e. model missus, married with children, just because they are trying to protect their careers.
Sure its noones business if they're gay, but the fact they're a pro footballer will mean that any footballer seen dating or being friendly with another man in anyway will end up all over the papers.
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I just think that with the millionaire celebrity lifestyles that they enjoy at the expense of joe public that it would be nice if just one of them showed a degree of the courage it took Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela to stand up against their oppressions.
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I just think that with the millionaire celebrity lifestyles that they enjoy at the expense of joe public that it would be nice if just one of them showed a degree of the courage it took Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela to stand up against their oppressions.
Nelson Mandela was gay???
you'll be telling me next that he was black as well
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Out of interest, Lucky Eddie, is there anything in your life that you'd be feel uncomfortable broadcasting to the world? No? Maybe? Yes? Go on, do it - tell us your biggest secret. Let's see how we - and you - cope.
My uncle's took me down the blues and the olbiyun when Villa were playing away in the late seventies - there I'm OUT!
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I just think that with the millionaire celebrity lifestyles that they enjoy at the expense of joe public that it would be nice if just one of them showed a degree of the courage it took Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela to stand up against their oppressions.
One did, it kind of had the opposite effect.
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I see Fear's mob are having the same discussion over on VitalVilla.
He really does encourage the most neanderthal bigoted morons to post on that website doesn't he?
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I see Fear's mob are having the same discussion over on VitalVilla.
He really does encourage the most neanderthal bigoted morons to post on that website doesn't he?
They certainly have a decent collection of them.
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I see Fear's mob are having the same discussion over on VitalVilla.
He really does encourage the most neanderthal bigoted morons to post on that website doesn't he?
That James06 sounds like a bright individual:
Obviously if they are a good player then not much else matters. We've seen quite often before how a brilliant footballer can get away with quite a bit off the field, not just at the top level either. We had a lad at school who was so good they held back on expelling him, because his years team had got to the county cup final. Being a chutney ferret would definately get overlooked if that player won us the world cup.
That being said, I don't think there's any homophobia in football, or any anti-gay feeling as such anyway. I just don't think bandits are really that into it. When all us normal geezers were playing football as soon as we could walk and idolising our Villa hero's, they were mincing around with the girls playing with dolls and plaiting each others hair.
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Fear's website is full of bigots like 'James06', and he tolerates them on a daily basis, and even encourages them.
I really don't know how this bloke has the nerve to be expected to be taken seriously.
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Their Muslim bus drivers thread is a beauty
Fucking Muslims piss me off! They demand this that and the other then refuse to live by the laws of our land. Banned the pork dodging twats
I live with a dog, I cuddle him, kiss him, rub his belly, bath him, brush him and play with him. He sometimes sits on my lap and has occasionally jumped in my bed.
Yet I would never ever ever until the day i draw my last breath allow a muslim to step foot in my home.
i hate muslims.
i hate the fact that this country has to bow to their demands.
i dont care if the daily mail is spinning it.
I HATE THEM.
Then finally an intervention from The Fear.
exactly what I thought.
Maybe I need to do one muslim thread so this hatred can be kept in one place.
All this from the Tory Mail as well, they aren't looking to stir up their hate filled agenda are they? Ooooh no.
Fucking rag of a paper.
As stated already, instead of running to the press why not take the necessary legal action to stop this crap
Why not stop the racist bollocks from being posted in the first place?
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Barely a day goes by without one of Fear's members posting vile racist or homophobic filth, yet he has the nerve to assume the moral highground with the above?
What a joke of a man.
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Is James06 telling us he's in a stable and loving relationship with a dog?
He could get away with that if he won us the world cup.
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Could care less what their orientation. The only exception being if they are carrying HIV. But I think (or hope) this would be covered just like any other communicable disease.
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We'll have no Bad Aids in football.
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Is James06 telling us he's in a stable and loving relationship with a dog?
He could get away with that if he won us the world cup.
Bravo!
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Could care less what their orientation. The only exception being if they are carrying HIV. But I think (or hope) this would be covered just like any other communicable disease.
Precautions are already in place in all sporting events for this, why do you think you are not allowed to do a "Terry Butcher" anymore?
It wouldn't be a great surprise, given how they tend to try to shag anything and everything, if there were professional footballers with HIV!
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Barely a day goes by without one of Fear's members posting vile racist or homophobic filth, yet he has the nerve to assume the moral highground with the above?
What a joke of a man.
How dare you.
He's the best Villa fan in the country.
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Could care less what their orientation. The only exception being if they are carrying HIV. But I think (or hope) this would be covered just like any other communicable disease.
Good aids is alright isn't it?
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Good aids helps kill the bad aids and gives you a healthy digestive tract.
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Barely a day goes by without one of Fear's members posting vile racist or homophobic filth, yet he has the nerve to assume the moral highground with the above?
What a joke of a man.
How dare you.
He's the best Villa fan in the country.
That's not true. I attended a league cup game at the Oxford United ground with only three sides.... on the very same day that I discovered I had athlete's foot
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Barely a day goes by without one of Fear's members posting vile racist or homophobic filth, yet he has the nerve to assume the moral highground with the above?
What a joke of a man.
How dare you.
He's the best Villa fan in the country.
That's not true. I attended a league cup game at the Oxford United ground with only three sides.... on the very same day that I discovered I had athlete's foot
And you still managed to kick off at half time underneath the away stand!
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maybe they've seen all the crap sol campbell gets and thought 'nah'? i don't even know if he is gay but that would put anyone off.
Im pretty sure he's currently on his honeymoon. Seriously! if he is, best not tell his new bride......
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or james06....
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Footballers have before now started legal action because they've been 'accused' of being gay. Given this, I think we're still some way off the first out player.
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Excuse my ignorance here, but isn't it now accepted that Homosexuality occurs due to nature rather than nurture i.e. you're born that way rather than it being a lifestyle choice (and therefore can't be "cured" by religion etc).
Seriously I could be miles off here, so correct me if I am wrong.
Extending this wisdom further isn't the amount of estrogen (female) and testosterone (male) hormones one of the key factors in this scientific theory? i.e. a gay male has a higher % of estrogen and a gay female has a higher % of testosterone.
Testosterone generally being accepted as the hormone which encourages competitiveness and aggression. Two attributes that are vital for any sportsman (or female tennis player - explaining the higher frequency of female sports stars "coming out").
Based on the above then maybe there just aren't that many gay footballers out there.
At some point, have I had a really rubbish biology teacher or is this not the current conventional scientific wisdom?
Regardless of the above, who really cares? It's absolutely none of our business. If I was a gay footballer, I would want to be the best footballer and partner that I could be and I'm pretty certain being a martyr would not help me towards either goal.
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I see banter on ere where someone may call someone a poof. It doesn't bother me, but in this age where everyone appears to be offended at something, i sometimes wonder if i should.
It's all in the delivery, I think.
American comedian Tina Fey makes regular references (and occasional disparaging remarks) about gays. And the Irish. And blacks.
Yet it doesn't seem to dent her popularity with those groups. Quite the opposite, in fact.
The moral of this story?
I dunno, perhaps possess an above average IQ, look hot in specs and offend everyone equally. Then you can say pretty much whatever the hell you want.
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The gay ones are easy to spot.
Delicate but artistic wingers who shy away from hard tackles.
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For anyone interested in a low level description, the book "Why Men Don't Listen, and Women Can't Read Maps", is a good read.
I read this book and as you suggest it's unlikely to be on a Master's course reading list, but at least someone has made a fist of explaining why I've never met a woman who had either any sense of direction or could usefully read a map.
Sorry, what was that you said dear?
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The gay ones are easy to spot.
Delicate but artistic wingers who shy away from hard tackles.
*Immature snigger*
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I reckon a gay player would be as worried about the stick he'd get from other players as he would from the fans. Imagine having to deal with a twat like John Terry if you are openly gay. It's easy to tell them that they should stand up for themselves when you're not the one who will have to endure it every single day.
Indeed. Just look at the stick le Saux got from that fat twat Fowler for daring to read the Guardian. The first time a tackle went astray in training it'd be "bender" this and "poof" that.
The fact is, it's just an occupation where you're unlikely to find many openly gay employees. I had a gay mate in Wigan who was a quantity surveyor, and working around building sites, there's no way on earth he'd have admitted to it at work, no way at all.
TBH that cock le saux deserved the piss taken out of him (not for homophobic reasons) but for thinking that wearing a pair of glasses and reading the Guardian made him some sort of Stephen hawking like figure. Fuck me I bet he had a copy of the Dandy inside
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Based on the above then maybe there just aren't that many gay footballers out there.
I think you might be right even if I've no idea on the scientific part of your post. If the percentage of gays in football was somewhere near what it was in the outside world then I'd think some of the more militant gay groups would have exposed the higher profile players for their own ends and the papers and books would have hinted at the retired ones, dead ones and those who cant afford expensive lawyers.
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I reckon a gay player would be as worried about the stick he'd get from other players as he would from the fans. Imagine having to deal with a twat like John Terry if you are openly gay. It's easy to tell them that they should stand up for themselves when you're not the one who will have to endure it every single day.
Indeed. Just look at the stick le Saux got from that fat twat Fowler for daring to read the Guardian. The first time a tackle went astray in training it'd be "bender" this and "poof" that.
The fact is, it's just an occupation where you're unlikely to find many openly gay employees. I had a gay mate in Wigan who was a quantity surveyor, and working around building sites, there's no way on earth he'd have admitted to it at work, no way at all.
TBH that cock le saux deserved the piss taken out of him (not for homophobic reasons) but for thinking that wearing a pair of glasses and reading the Guardian made him some sort of Stephen hawking like figure. Fuck me I bet he had a copy of the Dandy inside
What kind of inverse snobbery is that?
How does reading a quality newspaper and wearing glasses make you some kind of intellectual? Is this Cambodia Year Zero?
Mind you, I suppose it is easy to look like a colossal intellect when the opposing argument is epitomised by an intellectual giant such as Robbie Fowler.
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Excuse my ignorance here, but isn't it now accepted that Homosexuality occurs due to nature rather than nurture i.e. you're born that way rather than it being a lifestyle choice (and therefore can't be "cured" by religion etc).
Seriously I could be miles off here, so correct me if I am wrong.
Extending this wisdom further isn't the amount of estrogen (female) and testosterone (male) hormones one of the key factors in this scientific theory? i.e. a gay male has a higher % of estrogen and a gay female has a higher % of testosterone.
Testosterone generally being accepted as the hormone which encourages competitiveness and aggression. Two attributes that are vital for any sportsman (or female tennis player - explaining the higher frequency of female sports stars "coming out").
Based on the above then maybe there just aren't that many gay footballers out there.
At some point, have I had a really rubbish biology teacher or is this not the current conventional scientific wisdom?
Regardless of the above, who really cares? It's absolutely none of our business. If I was a gay footballer, I would want to be the best footballer and partner that I could be and I'm pretty certain being a martyr would not help me towards either goal.
My local Womens football team is made up predominantly of lesbians - not sure of that backs up your point or not ..............?
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I reckon a gay player would be as worried about the stick he'd get from other players as he would from the fans. Imagine having to deal with a twat like John Terry if you are openly gay. It's easy to tell them that they should stand up for themselves when you're not the one who will have to endure it every single day.
Indeed. Just look at the stick le Saux got from that fat twat Fowler for daring to read the Guardian. The first time a tackle went astray in training it'd be "bender" this and "poof" that.
The fact is, it's just an occupation where you're unlikely to find many openly gay employees. I had a gay mate in Wigan who was a quantity surveyor, and working around building sites, there's no way on earth he'd have admitted to it at work, no way at all.
TBH that cock le saux deserved the piss taken out of him (not for homophobic reasons) but for thinking that wearing a pair of glasses and reading the Guardian made him some sort of Stephen hawking like figure. Fuck me I bet he had a copy of the Dandy inside
What kind of inverse snobbery is that?
How does reading a quality newspaper and wearing glasses make you some kind of intellectual? Is this Cambodia Year Zero?
Mind you, I suppose it is easy to look like a colossal intellect when the opposing argument is epitomised by an intellectual giant such as Robbie Fowler.
The very, very, very rich Robbie Fowler. I know, I know!
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I'm aware he owns half of Liverpool these days.
He's still a fuckwit, mind.
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I reckon a gay player would be as worried about the stick he'd get from other players as he would from the fans. Imagine having to deal with a twat like John Terry if you are openly gay. It's easy to tell them that they should stand up for themselves when you're not the one who will have to endure it every single day.
Indeed. Just look at the stick le Saux got from that fat twat Fowler for daring to read the Guardian. The first time a tackle went astray in training it'd be "bender" this and "poof" that.
The fact is, it's just an occupation where you're unlikely to find many openly gay employees. I had a gay mate in Wigan who was a quantity surveyor, and working around building sites, there's no way on earth he'd have admitted to it at work, no way at all.
TBH that cock le saux deserved the piss taken out of him (not for homophobic reasons) but for thinking that wearing a pair of glasses and reading the Guardian made him some sort of Stephen hawking like figure. Fuck me I bet he had a copy of the Dandy inside
What kind of inverse snobbery is that?
How does reading a quality newspaper and wearing glasses make you some kind of intellectual? Is this Cambodia Year Zero?
Exacyly but le Saux was keen to portray that image of himself namely if people think i is clever then i'll get lots of work on that tellybox think
Thank heaven for small mercies...
Mind you, I suppose it is easy to look like a colossal intellect when the opposing argument is epitomised by an intellectual giant such as Robbie Fowler.
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I reckon a gay player would be as worried about the stick he'd get from other players as he would from the fans. Imagine having to deal with a twat like John Terry if you are openly gay. It's easy to tell them that they should stand up for themselves when you're not the one who will have to endure it every single day.
Indeed. Just look at the stick le Saux got from that fat twat Fowler for daring to read the Guardian. The first time a tackle went astray in training it'd be "bender" this and "poof" that.
The fact is, it's just an occupation where you're unlikely to find many openly gay employees. I had a gay mate in Wigan who was a quantity surveyor, and working around building sites, there's no way on earth he'd have admitted to it at work, no way at all.
TBH that cock le saux deserved the piss taken out of him (not for homophobic reasons) but for thinking that wearing a pair of glasses and reading the Guardian made him some sort of Stephen hawking like figure. Fuck me I bet he had a copy of the Dandy inside
What kind of inverse snobbery is that?
How does reading a quality newspaper and wearing glasses make you some kind of intellectual? Is this Cambodia Year Zero?
Exacyly but le Saux was keen to portray that image of himself namely if people think i is clever then i'll get lots of work on that tellybox think
Thank heaven for small mercies...
Mind you, I suppose it is easy to look like a colossal intellect when the opposing argument is epitomised by an intellectual giant such as Robbie Fowler.
It's the same reason why Paulie has got the better of this exchange. ;¬)