Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: sfx412 on July 18, 2010, 04:46:43 PM
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We all know Mon takes his time in the transfer market and still often gets it wrong, as Petrov confirms in his recent Sky blurb, no time to panic as he always leaves transfers until the last few days.
Most realistic fans will appreciate he tends to pay over the odds for players, is that partly due to him leaving matters so late, and the other managers knowing his style. He limits himself further perhaps by never (rarely) buying from outside these Isles and most will appreciate the cheaper players do come from over the water.
Now as we are the only team in the top 8 who have yet to purchase improvements, perhaps its time for RL to suggest to Wonder Mon, he change his tactics in the transfer market. Perhaps if he did he'd surprise a few and maybe do a better job.
But then if 4 seasons of watching plan A, with no plan B is anything to go bye, I won't be holding my breath, but then, as a long time Villa fan I live in hope.
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We all know Mon takes his time in the transfer market and still often gets it wrong, as Petrov confirms in his recent Sky blurb, no time to panic as he always leaves transfers until the last few days.
Most realistic fans will appreciate he tends to pay over the odds for players, is that partly due to him leaving matters so late, and the other managers knowing his style. He limits himself further perhaps by never (rarely) buying from outside these Isles and most will appreciate the cheaper players do come from over the water.
Now as we are the only team in the top 8 who have yet to purchase improvements, perhaps its time for RL to suggest to Wonder Mon, he change his tactics in the transfer market. Perhaps if he did he'd surprise a few and maybe do a better job.
But then if 4 seasons of watching plan A, with no plan B is anything to go bye, I won't be holding my breath, but then, as a long time Villa fan I live in hope.
What's the point in Randy Lerner paying MON however much he pays him if he is going to tell him how to do his job?
You're obviously not a MON fan and improving every season for the last 4 years clearly isn't good enough for you, even though every year there are more clubs with more money than us.
Also, I dont think that many of the top 8 (except Citeh, who are a law unto themselves) have sttrengthened that significantly so far. There's still 4 weeks to go and the vast majority of all transfer business is done in the last week - it's how business works, unless you are prepared to pay vastly over the odds, a la Citeh.
Finally I dont agree with your general assertion that Martin has performed poorly in the transfer market. He replaced the entire back 4 last season for the cost of half a Man City centre back, and save for one game, would have been the best in the league. All of his big buys tend to be worth more when he sells them than when he buys them. Every manager buys a few carthorses and MON is no exception, but he is far from a poor performer in the transfer market.
You talk of living in hope, but you seem to have abandoned all that before a ball has been kicked or the transfer window has closed.
Keep The Faith
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Tranfser Tactics?
You either buy a player or you don't. There isn't any kind of tactics.
MON will buy a player when he wants to buy a player, not because some fans moan about 4 years of progression.
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what we would all like is a positive move in the market to boost the squad and then we would not be like last year when we were knocked out of the europa cup/lge and outplayed by wigan in the 1st week of the season
you need to get players in to work on tactics/set plays during pre-season
i would argue that arsenal have improved a lot with chamakh and the defender they have signed, liverpool with the forward from fiorentina, joe cole poss and hodgson and everton with beckford have taken steps ahead of us
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I dont think he particularly does pay over the odds for players, if you compare to other teams investments and how the transfer market has gone. One or two look bad value for money with hindsight, Davies, Reo-Coker and so far Downing being the obvious ones. All of those came with a bright future ahead at the time we bought them though. We certainly don't get any/many bargains but that is purely down to not shopping abroad as you point out. In terms of getting wound up with the lack of activity, i can understand it in previous years because we had glaring gaps in the squad, but not this time. We have a big squad. Add a world cup to that and i have no gripe with nothing happening so far. If he sells 5 or 6 players in the next 2 weeks and we get to the last couple of weeks with no incoming, yes i will be pissed off. Surely he won't be that daft though???? :-)
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what we would all like is a positive move in the market to boost the squad and then we would not be like last year when we were knocked out of the europa cup/lge and outplayed by wigan in the 1st week of the season
you need to get players in to work on tactics/set plays during pre-season
i would argue that arsenal have improved a lot with chamakh and the defender they have signed, liverpool with the forward from fiorentina, joe cole poss and hodgson and everton with beckford have taken steps ahead of us
No, they have not.
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we will see wont we
thats what i love about football its all about opinions
and i missed out united signing hernandez
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I dont think he pays over the odds, and generally speaking he is successful in the market.
With regards to spending big money on failures, you are always more aware of your own clubs big money flops. Other clubs have just as many, but the nature of things is that we dont notice or even forget those clubs have them in the first place.
If there is such a thing as "transfer tactics" then I think its about the age/type of players you go for rather than timing. MON tries to purchase players that have become established,say in the 21-26 year age group, can be improved and if they do eventually move on have money coming back.
Its something Brian Little did with some success, and something that John Gregory did not do.
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It's hard to argue that MON is slow in the transfer market however I think he operates in a manner which is classy and respectful of other clubs and therefore befitting of Aston Villa.
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Where is the difference between this thread and the normal transfer thread?We have been discussing mons transfer activity or lack of for the last 450 odd pages.
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If he buys as well as he did last summer I certainly won't be complaining.
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Where is the difference between this thread and the other shit Mrs Overall threads? We have been discussing mons transfer activity or lack of for the last 450 odd pages.
Exactly
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He's improved us in every transfer window he's been in charge. Whether he's done so by enough or quickly enough is I guess, open to debate.
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sfx, alan curbishley!
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It's hard to argue that MON is slow in the transfer market however I think he operates in a manner which is classy and respectful of other clubs and therefore befitting of Aston Villa.
I suppose he could be like Redknapp and talking about players from other clubs.
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Hmmm....Its worth noting he had to replace the entire back four last season, because his original replacements to replace the original back four were deemed to be needing replacing
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Manager in "buying better players" shocker!
By the way greg, he didn't buy players to replace Bouma, Mellberg and Laursen for any reason other than they were injured or leaving. But when he needed to replace those players, he did so admirably. Thats also worth noting.
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Reading your post I was thinking 'yep, this guy is raising some interesting points'... and then you went and spoilt it all by calling him 'Wonder Mon'.
Why did you have to go and do that? It turned a reasonable, well thought out post into a childish side swipe in one easy move!
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Manager in "buying better players" shocker!
By the way greg, he didn't buy players to replace Bouma, Mellberg and Laursen for any reason other than they were injured or leaving. But when he needed to replace those players, he did so admirably. Thats also worth noting.
maybe, but behind collins and dunne, there's davies and knight.. behind warnock and cuellar there's shorey, young, beye. None of the replacement's replacements couldn't have been bought when he arrived, not last summer.
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Manager in "buying better players" shocker!
By the way greg, he didn't buy players to replace Bouma, Mellberg and Laursen for any reason other than they were injured or leaving. But when he needed to replace those players, he did so admirably. Thats also worth noting.
maybe, but behind collins and dunne, there's davies and knight.. behind warnock and cuellar there's shorey, young, beye. None of the replacement's replacements couldn't have been bought when he arrived, not last summer.
Knight was back up who was sold at profit. He did alright then we sold him and upgraded. Laursen and Davies did well as a pair so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Shorey was bought because Bouma was injured whereas Warnock was bought to truly replace Bouma. Beye was a back up who could have been needed but wasnt. Should have played more perhaps. So?
What you mean by this:
"None of the replacement's replacements couldn't have been bought when he arrived, not last summer"
Christ alone knows.
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Manager in "buying better players" shocker!
By the way greg, he didn't buy players to replace Bouma, Mellberg and Laursen for any reason other than they were injured or leaving. But when he needed to replace those players, he did so admirably. Thats also worth noting.
maybe, but behind collins and dunne, there's davies and knight.. behind warnock and cuellar there's shorey, young, beye. None of the replacement's replacements couldn't have been bought when he arrived, not last summer.
Knight was back up who was sold at profit. He did alright then we sold him and upgraded. Laursen and Davies did well as a pair so I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Shorey was bought because Bouma was injured whereas Warnock was bought to truly replace Bouma. Beye was a back up who could have been needed but wasnt. Should have played more perhaps. So?
What you mean by this:
"None of the replacement's replacements couldn't have been bought when he arrived, not last summer"
Christ alone knows.
Simple. none of last summer's buys came from top clubs. Dunne was at premoney bottom half citeh, warnock, blackburn, collins, west ham. Could have bought them at the time instead of wasting money on davies, knight shorey etc. hell, probably have got them cheaper.
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Sunday night crack smoking greg?
Why would we have bought Dunne to replace Laursen a few years ago when Laursen was doing just fine? Or are you saying we should have bought Dunne as back up instead of Knight?
How do you know he was available? And for less than the £5m we paid for him? I doubt it.
Did you know Collins was a good player a few years ago? You shoud have said. Nobody esle did. And Warnock. We didnt need to replace Bouma then either.
The fact is, when MON had to replace the defenders we lost long term, we replaced them with one of the best defences in the league and for less than the price of a Lescott.
True or false?
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Sunday night crack smoking greg?
Why would we have bought Dunne to replace Laursen a few years ago when Laursen was doing just fine? Or are you saying we should have bought Dunne as back up instead of Knight?
How do you know he was available? And for less than the £5m we paid for him? I doubt it.
Did you know Collins was a good player a few years ago? You shoud have said. Nobody esle did. And Warnock. We didnt need to replace Bouma then either.
The fact is, when MON had to replace the defenders we lost long term, we replaced them with one of the best defences in the league and for less than the price of a Lescott.
True or false?
Forget Laursen, he could have bought Dunne instead of Davies. The point i'm making is the likes of Davies, Shorey etc., weren't the best we could afford at the time or some sort of transitional players before we could buy the likes of Dunne, Warnock and Collins which is how some are making them out to be. They were the players he wanted at the time and he could have quite easily have bought who he did last summer earlier if need be as the fees we bought them for and the size of clubs they were at show.
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Forget Laursen, he could have bought Dunne instead of Davies.
Says who? And how do you know Laursen and Dunne could have played together? They're both too similar to be a partnership in my opinion.
Dunne was needed because we'd lost Laursen.
The point i'm making is the likes of Davies, Shorey etc., weren't the best we could afford at the time or some sort of transitional players before we could buy the likes of Dunne, Warnock and Collins which is how some are making them out to be. They were the players he wanted at the time and he could have quite easily have bought who he did last summer earlier if need be as the fees we bought them for and the size of clubs they were at show.
You have a very strange view of how transfers work. As if its just as simple as going to clubs who are smaller than we are and offering peanuts for their players, then sitting back and watching the magic happen.
Anyway, the penny is still not dropping. Warnock is a replacement for Bouma. Until it became clear we would be losing Bouma there was no need to spend relatively big money on replacing him, yes? We're not Man City who keep buying players regardless, we have to spend money effectively. Shorey was a contingency who may have worked out but Warnock cost twice as much. We needed cover, Shorey was cover, Warnock is more than that.
As for Davies. You keep making him out to be some sort of complete failure and you're wrong. At the time we bought him (when we were hardly a major force in the league) MON obviously wanted a long term option and that was Davies who, once he'd settled in, performed well and earned a call up to England. He was the right age and personality for us.
He kept loads of clean sheets with Laursen and Knight. Hardly a disaster.
The only real downside as I see it is his injuries.
It seems you're expecting every player to work out, even the ones bought as cover. Good luck with that then because it doesnt happen at any club in any league with any manager.
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heh. i love the way you just decide who's a replacement for who. Couldn't collins have been Laursen's replacement?
Look the bottom line is we're not shopping in a different market last summer to the one where we purchased Davies, Shorey etc.., In august 07 Citeh were a skint club finishing below us, while we had a billionaire and were paying top wages as we've found out since. If anything it should have been easier to buy him than last summer. the fact that he then paid more for Davies than a lot of established premier centre halfs shows he really wanted him, and i don't believe collins or Dunne were even considered. The likes of NRC weren't cheap either even now so weren't any sort of stop gaps. And its not just me who thinks Davies has failed or he wouldn't be on the transfer list no?
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heh. i love the way you just decide who's a replacement for who. Couldn't collins have been Laursen's replacement?
Look the bottom line is we're not shopping in a different market last summer to the one where we purchased Davies, Shorey etc.., In august 07 Citeh were a skint club finishing below us, while we had a billionaire and were paying top wages as we've found out since. If anything it should have been easier to buy him than last summer. the fact that he then paid more for Davies than a lot of established premier centre halfs shows he really wanted him, and i don't believe collins or Dunne were even considered. The likes of NRC weren't cheap either even now so weren't any sort of stop gaps. And its not just me who thinks Davies has failed or he wouldn't be on the transfer list no?
I dont decide who is a replacement for who, the manager does. But it takes a basic understanding of football to work it out.
I dont believe Collins or Dunne were considered either because we had Laursen for Dunne's role and Dunne wouldn't have started that often to justify trying to get Man City's player of the season and Collins was unknown. Where did I say NRC was a stop gap?
And if Davies is sold its because we can afford to lose him now, not because he's useless as you make out. And how do you know he's on the transfer list?
Its a pity you dont have a time machine greg, then you could go around buying all the best players for us at a time when they, according to your crazed self, are available for a song or virtually unknown. Maybe you could call it the retardis?
In the meantime, nothing changes the fact that MON assembled a new defence that has been very successful. What kind of shit argument is "yes but he could have done it a few years ago"? Do me a fucking favour.
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oh please. if you're going to descend into name calling then as usual with you, the arguement's won. I think i'll leave you in your world where we can afford to let 8m+ defenders leave on the cheap when the realilty is they should never have been bought in the first place
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Yes greg, you've "won" the argument. You did it with all your wonderful logic and reasoning allied to your deep knowledge of football.
By the way, Davies cost £8m. What are we asking for him?
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Yes greg, you've "won" the argument. You did it with all your wonderful logic and reasoning allied to your deep knowledge of football.
By the way, Davies cost £8m. What are we asking for him?
at least 8m he cost. noone knows for sure.. and we'll be lucky to get half that
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Classic debate mazrim and gregnash. But he's made more good signing's than bad i like davies he's been unlucky with being injured i would like him to stay but what can he do damned if he does sell him damned if he dont.
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According to the most accurate sources we have, he cost £8m and has not triggered any add ons if there ever were any. I dont think £8m is excessive for a highly rated young English defender and we fought off Spurs to get him.
He's been at Villa three years and his contract is running down so of course he will be less valuable.
We'll have to agree to disagree on how good he is.
But before he was injured he was in good form alongside Cuellar. Turning in a top performance against Liverpool at Anfield as I recall.
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its going to be a struggle to get any sort of decent fee for him. last year of contract, we can't play him because then we'd have to offer a new contract. Everyone knows this and will bide their time
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Goping back to the original post, this is what I think our approach to the transfer market is:-
1. We can't afford the game's superstars, so try and get the next batch in early, which would be their early 20s. Don't be afraid to pay over the odds, or what is percieved to be over the odds, as we should get many year's service due to their age or a good sell on value. See Milner, A Young and Delph
2. Suppliment this by the signing of older experienced professionals. These allow you to be competitive while waiting for the players mentioning above to develop. Due to lack of sell on value and shorter term of service, don't spend as much on these players. See Dunne, Petrov and Carew.
3. Focus on the best of your youth products to develop alongside the signings in category 1. See Gabby, Delgouneso and Albrighton.
Now, we do seem to be largely limiting ourselves to the UK market, but other than that I find the above to be a sensible way of approaching things.
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Now, we do seem to be largely limiting ourselves to the UK market, but other than that I find the above to be a sensible way of approaching things.
Firstly RL owns the club, runs the club and can dictate what and to whom he likes if he wants.
Secondly, if you feel the money paid for an injured winger who didn't start in reality for much of the season, or the upwards of 8 mill for Delph, who when he played was poor, good spends fine, I don't. Similarly, that last minute buys of Dunne, Collinson, proved good as the season progressed, but to illustrate my point when did he buy them.
Thirdly most clubs have already bought players from overseas, many last season found some gems, if we are this poor club who can't spend money why does he not buy players from abroad and early.
fourthly we are the only club in the top 8 who have not yet strengthened their squad, yet, and I maintain anyone buying anything, players cars, in semi auction situation know that the longer you take to pay the higher the price gets. Even the 'good' buys cost more than they could have. How much would Milner have cost when DOL first tried for him, when Mon first tried and failed for him, before he paid more than anyone else ?
Lastly
Good point about calling him names.
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Secondly, if you feel the money paid for an injured winger who didn't start in reality for much of the season, or the upwards of 8 mill for Delph, who when he played was poor
That's a bit harsh, surely?
He looked pretty promising to me. Not seen enough to annoint him as a brilliant signing, and that's a big transfer fee to live up to, but to say he was poor strikes me as somewhat over the top.
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If you think Delph (who actually cost £6m, the add ons havent triggered yet) is a poor player you havent got the first clue about football. Not the first. And who the hell is Collinson?
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Delph was a bit out of his depth v Wigan.
But the games he started v Man Utd and Brighton he was superb.
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You're view of our tactics seem to revolve around the 'when' within any given transfer window, while I was commenting on the longer term aim of who we sign and what we pay for them, which I think is much more important.
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Delph was a bit out of his depth v Wigan.
But the games he started v Man Utd and Brighton he was superb.
On the first game of last season, the entire side looked out of their depth against Wigan, mind.
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Delph was a bit out of his depth v Wigan.
But the games he started v Man Utd and Brighton he was superb.
On the first game of last season, the entire side looked out of their depth against Wigan, mind.
agreed and as was previously said he was excellent against Man Utd once he had settled in.
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Other than the Wigan game, I've been very impressed whenever I've seen Fabian Delph.
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I can't remember what away game it was (might have been Bolton) but Delph was superb in the first half. We've got potenially a very good player there.
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We all know Mon takes his time in the transfer market and still often gets it wrong, as Petrov confirms in his recent Sky blurb, no time to panic as he always leaves transfers until the last few days.
Most realistic fans will appreciate he tends to pay over the odds for players, is that partly due to him leaving matters so late, and the other managers knowing his style. He limits himself further perhaps by never (rarely) buying from outside these Isles and most will appreciate the cheaper players do come from over the water.
Now as we are the only team in the top 8 who have yet to purchase improvements, perhaps its time for RL to suggest to Wonder Mon, he change his tactics in the transfer market. Perhaps if he did he'd surprise a few and maybe do a better job.
But then if 4 seasons of watching plan A, with no plan B is anything to go bye, I won't be holding my breath, but then, as a long time Villa fan I live in hope.
What's the point in Randy Lerner paying MON however much he pays him if he is going to tell him how to do his job?
You're obviously not a MON fan and improving every season for the last 4 years clearly isn't good enough for you, even though every year there are more clubs with more money than us.
Also, I dont think that many of the top 8 (except Citeh, who are a law unto themselves) have sttrengthened that significantly so far. There's still 4 weeks to go and the vast majority of all transfer business is done in the last week - it's how business works, unless you are prepared to pay vastly over the odds, a la Citeh.
Finally I dont agree with your general assertion that Martin has performed poorly in the transfer market. He replaced the entire back 4 last season for the cost of half a Man City centre back, and save for one game, would have been the best in the league. All of his big buys tend to be worth more when he sells them than when he buys them. Every manager buys a few carthorses and MON is no exception, but he is far from a poor performer in the transfer market.
You talk of living in hope, but you seem to have abandoned all that before a ball has been kicked or the transfer window has closed.
Keep The Faith
Top post in my opinion. well said.
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In terms of Delph.
I think MON saw him as more of a 'potential' player. He's only young. With the training and experience he can gain from Villa he'll be an amazing player in a year or two, and in my opinion that's what he's doing.
The games that Delph has played, I feel, MON is using as an 'update' to see how well Delph is doing in the PL. The training difference between Leeds and Villa is a massive step up, and MON knows this, which is why he's building him up to be a great player.
Think about it ... if you play for Leeds and then get signed by a PL club you're going to shit yourself. VP is an intimidating place.
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Elland Road is pretty intimidating too but there's no doubt there's an adjustment in quality required from League 1 to the PL.
I think MON just saw an obvious top player in the making and went for it, like he did with Young. I agree with him. He's going to be something special if he fully recovers from his injury.
Its a real shame too because I think he would have been ready to play a more significant role from the start this season.
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That's a bit harsh, surely?
He looked pretty promising to me. Not seen enough to annoint him as a brilliant signing, and that's a big transfer fee to live up to, but to say he was poor strikes me as somewhat over the top.
Why?
He paid a big sum,which will get bigger, for a lower division player, he put him in and he 'looked promising'. So did Osborne the last player he went on record as saying was the future of the club, when he first played.
I can see the guy has potential, but paying what he did for someone who looks promising who he dropped due to his inadequate performances is the truth harsh as it is.
I'm sure like Downing, another waste of 12 mill, he will come good in time but that 20 mill could have bought a player or two who was as effective as Dunne, Warnock and Collins were all season. Perhaps then Villa not Spurs would be looking at a top 4 finish.
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Other than the Wigan game, I've been very impressed whenever I've seen Fabian Delph.
Mon obviously saw problems and dropped him
Sack Mon ?
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So Mon's new transfer tactics should be to spend big on untried lower division players in the hope they come good at some indeterminate time in the future.
Good plan that Mazrim.
Meanwhile Spurs are in Big Europe with all the benefits that brings :)
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First sign of madness that, talking to yourself. Second sign is having hair on the palm of your hand.
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Other than the Wigan game, I've been very impressed whenever I've seen Fabian Delph.
Mon obviously saw problems and dropped him
Sack Mon ?
and then he brought him back again and then he obviously saw problems and dropped him again and then he brought him back again and then he obviously saw problems and dropped him again. He did it loads of times, the indecisive arse.
or maybe 15 1st team appearances for a promising 18 year old kid during his first season with a top flight club was deemed to be just about right for his development?
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I think Maz is right. Bringing players from the lower divisions is a good plan. I dont give a flying fuck what Spurs are up to, Im concerned about the long term plans of my club. If we think we can build responsibly for the future, we go that way. Big signings for big money doesnt mean big success for those players as United will testify and they are the most successful club out there. See also net spend at City. Fucking madness. Delph is a youngster, playing in the most important part of the pitch. He has plenty to learn, but I have been really impressed with what I have seen so far. Looking forward to seem him really start challenging for his place and developing over the future seasons at VP.
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One thing that always surprises me about this forum is the amount of panic we seem to indulge in thanks to the actions of other clubs. We seem to have this feeling that at some point, as soon as an adequate top four is settled, there will be no chance of joining it ever again and so we're desperately striving to hang onto the tails of it like the last chopper out of Saigon.
We're Aston Villa, not Spurs, City, Liverpool, Arsenal or whoever else. If we invest wisely and bring players on under the guidance of a good manager, we will reach a level of success that that patience deserves. And at some point in the future, the hegemony of the league will change. Last season, Liverpool finished seventh. The season before that, the once-feared Newcastle dropped out of the league altogether. Villa are in better shape than some of their rivals in terms of debt and stability and I happen to think we're on the right path.