Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: sfx412 on July 06, 2010, 06:02:11 PM
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Who ?
Milner, Ashley Young, Gabby, of course.
I'm a great Gabby fan, even appreciate Ashley but not as some do and Milner, well he if nothing else, is the most improved player at VP last season, but are they really of the best standard that the real top clubs would want them desperately to pay out the fees some speculate.
Would we want to pay, not that we could, the money some suggest, I think not, so why would anyone else.
OK Man City are buying all and sundry and its great to feel that they are in demand but I'd suggest Miler at best is 25 mill, Young, 18 and Gabby 20. Do we really need to move them at those prices, even if, and its not proven, Money is so tight.
Not for me.
Sensible management would base a team around them and Downing not sell them to buy some ageing striker and replacement keeper. Not for me anyway.
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The most sensible post you've ever put up Malcolm (including your apparent praise of Downing, which I like).
Fortunately it looks like MON's going to get all the money he needs and then some out of the Milner sale. He needs to use the money wisely, I think we need, among other things, a couple of all-round midfielders and a spark in the final third (a tempo-dictator would be great, but let's not be unrealistic) and we would be a much better team than had we kept Milner.
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Gabby is not a 20m pound striker.
He's in the "decent" category, I'd say.
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More like the "heavy" category!
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gabby could be worth 30m or worth nowt in a few years. just that sort of player
young. potentially an england regular. (hey if downing can get a game)
milner if he continues to improve, could be a fixture in the england side for the next 5 years. he's not worth 20+m but then who is?
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Gabby is not worth anywhere near £20m- he needs to improve his finishing vastly to be in that class, he has potential though and is improving yearly .
Ash is a quality player on his day and he and milner could be England regulars also for many years.
I'd say milner is ahead of them at the moment but a good year could really see ash and gabby push on this season at club and international level.
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When discussing present day transfer values or players wages, I think the use of the word "worth" is misplaced. Nobody is "worth" these amounts. Perhaps "market value" would be better, or perhaps other more accurate terminology could be suggested.
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Gabby is not worth anywhere near £20m- he needs to improve his finishing vastly to be in that class, he has potential though and is improving yearly .
Ash is a quality player on his day and he and milner could be England regulars also for many years.
I'd say milner is ahead of them at the moment but a good year could really see ash and gabby push on this season at club and international level.
If Gabby was to leave this summer then we'd easily get £20m for him.
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£15m in my opinion, like I said if he can improve his finishing in the way he's improved his all round game year on year then he could be worth a lot more than that, put robbie keane with him and I think he would learn a lot and improve his game too.
To spend £20m on a striker I'd be looking for a regular 20 goals a season striker.
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If we sold Gabby I'd be disgusted. If we sold him for less than £20m I'd lead an armed assault on Villa Park.
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out of the three I'd only be truly disappointed if Ash were to be let go. But, this is an important season as there's already a feeling of our moment in the sun having passed and we could easily be in decilne.
MON wanted to go to Liverpool, Milner probably for the off, a disjointed looking midfield last season, and seemingly not able to get marquee players in to get bums on seats, and the team to play well consistently.
I know this is all a little bit previous as we have a summer of signiongs ahead of us. But that proud history bright future optimism seems well behind us now.
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Gabby is not a 20m pound striker.
He's in the "decent" category, I'd say.
He's improved year on year. He's more than decent.
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out of the three I'd only be truly disappointed if Ash were to be let go. But, this is an important season as there's already a feeling of our moment in the sun having passed and we could easily be in decilne.
MON wanted to go to Liverpool
Did he?
I know this is all a little bit previous as we have a summer of signiongs ahead of us. But that proud history bright future optimism seems well behind us now.
Cobblers. Nobody can change our proud history and whilst we have a steady flow of excellence coming through the academy, a rich benefactor who totally understands the culture of the club and plenty of spirit, the future will be bright.
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MON wanted to go to Liverpool, Milner probably for the off, a disjointed looking midfield last season, and seemingly not able to get marquee players in to get bums on seats, and the team to play well consistently.
This is an undisputed fact now is it?
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If we sold Gabby I'd be disgusted. If we sold him for less than £20m I'd lead an armed assault on Villa Park.
I'll prepare the Molotovs, son. I would be raging if we sold Gabby (or ash).
Spuds are no better than us, they just have a better mentality in that they will gamble and take a risk in order to reach a higher level. I hope that after three seasons of producing near identical results, MON will learn something and maybe gamble on a couple of big name players.....
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Personally I like gabby, local lad done good and all that but personally I think he has just about reached his peak.
2006/7 - 9 goals
2007/8 - 11 Goals
2008/9 - 12 goals
2009/10 - 13 goals
He doesnt read the game fantasically well - if he did he could score 20 a season but for me he makes too many bad decisions.
Like I say I like the bloke but at what coming 24 if he dont understand where to run now he never will
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imo,id rather lose Milner than Ash or Gabby,i think both of them bring more to the team than Milner.i think we'd find Milner is easier to replace than the other two would be..as far as how good they all are,if i was from another club.the only one out of the three id pay more than 20m for would be Ash,on his day he's the best winger in the league.
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my only problem with gabby is he's not an instinctive finisher. if he was then he'd have easily got nearer the 20 goal mark last season. him and a real goal hanger up front could be lethal
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my only problem with gabby is he's not an instinctive finisher. if he was then he'd have easily got nearer the 20 goal mark last season. him and a real goal hanger up front could be lethal
Agree entirely
Ih he had that gary shaw, andy gray, dwight yoorke, david platt ability to know exactly where to be he would score 20 a season.
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Gabby is not a 20m pound striker.
He's in the "decent" category, I'd say.
He's improved year on year. He's more than decent.
He needs to improve more than he has done (see stats posted by someone else) if he's going to be a top striker.
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Interesting comments especially on Gabby, for the best striker we have had consistently he has plenty of detractors.
The point was though is there anyone really daft enough to pay the prices for any of them that many think they are worth and would O'Neill, disappointed as he is seemingly at not going to Liverpool ??, part with them for what would be their sensible asking price.
I think not, and even if there were, it would surely have to be a very top price because all 3 represent the core of the present side and won't be replaced easily.
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I'm not sure it's a matter of how good they are, as much it is of how good they could become. Gabby I think won't develop much more (but then I've thought that for a while and he keeps doing it) and Ash needs consistency. I still maintain that Milner will go on to be the next Stevie GBH, although hopefully without becoming a Steve Hodge in the process.
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my only problem with gabby is he's not an instinctive finisher. if he was then he'd have easily got nearer the 20 goal mark last season. him and a real goal hanger up front could be lethal
Completely the opposite. He most certainly is an instinctive finisher. Its when he has too much time to think about it that problems sometimes arise.
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Mazrim, completely agree, when he has no time, under pressure his finishing is deadly and accurate. More time is when he comes unstuck. I love how he stretches the game though on the break, and I have seen a big improvement in his ability to bring in other players this last season. I think if he continues to develop, we have a smashing player, world class. If he doesnt improve, he is still one of the top british strikers about, and im glad its MON in charge of his development. I think he would have made more of an impact at the world cup than FatBastard. (sorry, meant to type Rooney)
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MON wanted to go to Liverpool, Milner probably for the off, a disjointed looking midfield last season, and seemingly not able to get marquee players in to get bums on seats, and the team to play well consistently.
This is an undisputed fact now is it?
Yes. he told me. phoned me last night.
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Fully agree about Gabby - it's when he needs to think too much that things go a bit oblong for him.
Bit like Darius Vassell in that respect.
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my only problem with gabby is he's not an instinctive finisher. if he was then he'd have easily got nearer the 20 goal mark last season. him and a real goal hanger up front could be lethal
Completely the opposite. He most certainly is an instinctive finisher. Its when he has too much time to think about it that problems sometimes arise.
isn't that part of being an instinctive finisher? i also don't think he takes up the best positions naturally in the opposition box. as i've said before, in the crudest terms i'd like a striker who can be arse for 85 minutes and get 2, and gabby's not that imo. whether mon would ever buy a player like that is another question as he does seem to like workrate from his players. don't get me wrong i think he'd work very well in partnership with that player and i'd be loathe to sell him.
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instinct is things you do (score) without thinking. which is what he does. Premeditated is when you have time to think about what you are going to do. So if he can improve his decision making he should be fine, as instinct is pretty much hardwired. I think his placement is improving, and I saw that especially through this season. Its a bit like Defoe who is now making the runs and gambles that previously he didnt. I think its part of how the striker matures and comes later to his peak, something you have to learn. The big thing he does over Defoe is his ability to score in the big games. Im looking forward to him having a great season and forcing himself into the England squad. Also love the fact he is a local lad.
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Agree with Moet and John M. If you look at the number of one on one's Gabby missed last season, it backs their argument up.
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I'd sell every other player in our squad before I'd sell Gabby.
Edit: To clarify, I mean individually, I wouldn't sell them all and play Gabby on his own.
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Although I think its worth trying to find the ideal partner for him (which might be Delfouneso soon enough) I think Gabby works best with wingers.
I dont think his role is properly defined when he plays with another striker. He seems to be like a big cat wary of another big cat in his territory even though they're hunting the same game.
So it might be that we employ the 4-2-3-1 system again with Gabby on his own up front, stretching opposition defences, bringing the wide men into the game and vice versa, allowing the forward central midfielder behind him space to work som magic and link it all together too (I'd see Ireland for this role).
For instance...
----------------Petrov----------Delph
Walcott---------------Ireland---------------Young
------------------------Gabby
But, if we can find a player who can unlock his full potential, read his game and chip in with a fair amount of goals themselves, perfect. I'd still play the system above though on occasion.
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Although I think its worth trying to find the ideal partner for him (which might be Delfouneso soon enough) I think Gabby works best with wingers.
As with the instinct versus time argument, I think he's best with wingers when breaking forward as opposed to a more patient build up. We get the best out of our best striker while playing counter attacking football, yet when we do just that people call the manager tactically inept. Makes you think, doesn't it?
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MON wanted to go to Liverpool, Milner probably for the off, a disjointed looking midfield last season, and seemingly not able to get marquee players in to get bums on seats, and the team to play well consistently.
This is an undisputed fact now is it?
Yes. he told me. phoned me last night.
Well, that's clarified that. I'd assumed you might have seen him and other reputable managers outside the Liverpool Boardroom banging on the door shouting "pick me, pick me".
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Although I think its worth trying to find the ideal partner for him (which might be Delfouneso soon enough) I think Gabby works best with wingers.
As with the instinct versus time argument, I think he's best with wingers when breaking forward as opposed to a more patient build up. We get the best out of our best striker while playing counter attacking football, yet when we do just that people call the manager tactically inept. Makes you think, doesn't it?
I wonder how good he's be in front of the German midfield
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2006/7 - 9 goals
2007/8 - 11 Goals
2008/9 - 12 goals
2009/10 - 13 goals
As far as I can remember, that is without taking any penalties. When gabby is compared with other strikers - Bent and Keane for example - their total usually includes a number of goals scored from the spot. I'd guess about 5 a season. Gabby could easily "look" a better player by taking villa's penalties.
Ironically one of the best things about Gabby (imo) is that he has identifiable weaknesses. For example movement in the penalty area can be taught. I hope this is the area that he tries to improve this season.
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If the media are to be believed, pundits on radio and TV and so on, Gabby is always highly rated by all and sundry,Merson excluded, Milner has gained a good following but Young seems only rated by some fans and Mon, and perhaps Hodgson
To get the sort of money many expect I'd expect all of them to have a higher rating and demand from bigger clubs.
I can't see why Man City would want Milner and be willing to sell Ireland, especially when they are buying and have quality experienced players there already.
Perhaps Villa's management have circulated certain none obvious players as open to offers, who knows, many have speculated without foundation as yet, we have a paucity of funds so its possible, I guess but unlikely.
Of all our 'better' players Milner is the most expendable,a s we have cover in Downing and Delph, we certainly have none for Gabby and only make do cover for Young.
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Although I think its worth trying to find the ideal partner for him (which might be Delfouneso soon enough) I think Gabby works best with wingers.
As with the instinct versus time argument, I think he's best with wingers when breaking forward as opposed to a more patient build up. We get the best out of our best striker while playing counter attacking football, yet when we do just that people call the manager tactically inept. Makes you think, doesn't it?
I wonder how good he's be in front of the German midfield
Not that much different, IMO. Playing with players like that behind you is all about your movement off the ball so they can pick you out, which I think is a weakness in Gabby's game.
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Gabby is not worth anywhere near £20m- he needs to improve his finishing vastly to be in that class, he has potential though and is improving yearly .
Ash is a quality player on his day and he and milner could be England regulars also for many years.
I'd say milner is ahead of them at the moment but a good year could really see ash and gabby push on this season at club and international level.
If Gabby was to leave this summer then we'd easily get £20m for him.
There's no way of proving that one way or the other unless we actually sell him. Personally I'd be surprised if anyone, with the possible exception of Cash City, would fork out 20m on a 10-12 goal a season striker who contributes relatively little else to the team.
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on a 10-12 goal a season striker who contributes relatively little else to the team.
10-12 goals and little else? Really?
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There's no way of proving that one way or the other unless we actually sell him. Personally I'd be surprised if anyone, with the possible exception of Cash City, would fork out 20m on a 10-12 goal a season striker who contributes relatively little else to the team.
16 goals last season, but apart from that you are spot on. Well, apart from contributing little else to the team, he contributes hugely and is one of our most missed player when not in the team. So yeah, apart from him scoring 16 goals last season and offering a lot more besides, spot on.
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That was a bit rubbish, Katie.
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I used to be a Gabby basher but over the last year or so I've started to rate him increasingly. If we sold him tomorrow I think he'd be a bigger loss than either of Milner and Ash. I don't think we'd be able to source a striker as good as him who does as much.
The last time this issue came up I looked up his stats:
2006-07 42 Games 10 goals
2007-08 40 games 11 goals
2008-09 48 games 13 goals
2009-10 41 games 16 goals
Total has improved each year. He's 24 in October and forwards tend to peak at 27/28. In 4 years time if Gabby keeps on improving his goal tally he'll be bagging a fair few goals.
If he can improve his weaknesses which is by no means impossible he will be some player.
I'd expect £15-20million if we were to sell him but would very firmly rather we didn't.
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There's no way of proving that one way or the other unless we actually sell him. Personally I'd be surprised if anyone, with the possible exception of Cash City, would fork out 20m on a 10-12 goal a season striker who contributes relatively little else to the team.
16 goals last season, but apart from that you are spot on. Well, apart from contributing little else to the team, he contributes hugely and is one of our most missed player when not in the team. So yeah, apart from him scoring 16 goals last season and offering a lot more besides, spot on.
I was thinking PL goals and over his career to date. His average return over the four full seasons he's played is 11.25. Even if you count all his cup goals it's only 12.5 so still not a million miles from my assertion of 10-12 a season. Although admittedly his total has increased each year and he may yet improve and prove me wrong.
I didn't say he contributes little else, I said he contributes relatively little else. It's an important distinction that you overlook. In my opinion he doesn't do as much as some other strikers in terms of , say, clever link up play, creating space for others with intelligent runs (fat chance), reading the game, playing other players in, creating something out of nothing etc. Certainly not enough, in my opinion, to justify a 20 million price tag.
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He's regularly amongst the top rated players in the actim stats so he must be doing something right and a fair bit more than relatively little else. And he's little more than a kid.
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Actim stats mean little sometimes but
http://www.premierleague.com/page/ActimIndex
he is 6th in this list of all the PL players
in the top 25 we have Gabby, Milner, Dunne, Cuellar, Young, Freidel
equal with Chelsea
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Gabby and Ash are very good compared with the shiite that went to South Africa however our best player next season once he recovers will be Fab Delph.
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Gabby is not worth anywhere near £20m- he needs to improve his finishing vastly to be in that class, he has potential though and is improving yearly .
Ash is a quality player on his day and he and milner could be England regulars also for many years.
I'd say milner is ahead of them at the moment but a good year could really see ash and gabby push on this season at club and international level.
If Gabby was to leave this summer then we'd easily get £20m for him.
There's no way of proving that one way or the other unless we actually sell him. Personally I'd be surprised if anyone, with the possible exception of Cash City, would fork out 20m on a 10-12 goal a season striker who contributes relatively little else to the team.
That's laughable, quite frankly. A statement like that leads me to question your judgement and understanding of football.
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And a statement like that leads me to quetion your ability to engage in rational debate without jumping to conclusions. Very easy to dismiss something without coming up with any coherent arguments against it. You can question it all you like but I've explained my stance in a subsequent post, that it's relative to the kind of all round contribution that I would expect from a genuine 20m striker. Gabby falls short as far as I'm concerned and I'm far from being the only one who thinks that way.
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And a statement like that leads me to quetion your ability to engage in rational debate without jumping to conclusions. Very easy to dismiss something without coming up with any coherent arguments against it. You can question it all you like but I've explained my stance in a subsequent post, that it's relative to the kind of all round contribution that I would expect from a genuine 20m striker. Gabby falls short as far as I'm concerned and I'm far from being the only one who thinks that way.
Defoe and Bent do less 'team work' than Gabby, yet are rated at £20m+. OK, both score more goals, but as all round players I'd rate Gabby higher.
He improved his physical strength and hold up play last season. He has increased his goals scored each season. I'm not his hugest fan either, but get excited about what he'll improve next and how far he can take his game.
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Defoe and Bent do less 'team work' than Gabby, yet are rated at £20m+. OK, both score more goals, but as all round players I'd rate Gabby higher.
He improved his physical strength and hold up play last season. He has increased his goals scored each season. I'm not his hugest fan either, but get excited about what he'll improve next and how far he can take his game.
Rated by whom at 20m+ ? Both have been transferred relatively recently for quite a bit less than 20m. Has Man City's new found wealth suddenly increased evey player's value by 25-30%?
I don;t watch them often enough to assess their all round contributions compared to Gabby's, but as you correctly say they both score quite a few more goals , averaging around 1 every two games in the league and overall. If Gabby could score that many I wouldn't care if he sat in an armchair smoking a cigar for the rest of the time.
Sure he's improved his hold up play but reasonable hold up play and fewer than one goal every three games does not equal 20m in my view. Not yet anyway.
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Well, unless one of them moves then it's all speculation, as it is with Gabby, but I doubt either could be prised away from their current clubs for less than £20m.
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And a statement like that leads me to quetion your ability to engage in rational debate without jumping to conclusions. Very easy to dismiss something without coming up with any coherent arguments against it. You can question it all you like but I've explained my stance in a subsequent post, that it's relative to the kind of all round contribution that I would expect from a genuine 20m striker. Gabby falls short as far as I'm concerned and I'm far from being the only one who thinks that way.
Thing is there are very few pundits and managers out there who agree with you and those others who have a derogatory opinion of the bloke.
I still think with Drogba seemingly valued at 24 mill that Gabby would sell for under 20 .
Even Milners price is now dropping I see in the media.
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And a statement like that leads me to quetion your ability to engage in rational debate without jumping to conclusions. Very easy to dismiss something without coming up with any coherent arguments against it. You can question it all you like but I've explained my stance in a subsequent post, that it's relative to the kind of all round contribution that I would expect from a genuine 20m striker. Gabby falls short as far as I'm concerned and I'm far from being the only one who thinks that way.
Thing is there are very few pundits and managers out there who agree with you and those others who have a derogatory opinion of the bloke.
I still think with Drogba seemingly valued at 24 mill that Gabby would sell for under 20 .
Even Milners price is now dropping I see in the media.
With the best part of 10 years between them in age, comparing the value of Drogba and Gabby is quite misleading. And Milner's value is not dropping, just the press picked a smaller number out of the air this morning when filling column inches!
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You may be right, but, if so, a lot of it will be down to their goalscoring records which Gabby can't match, and which his improved hold up play does not compensate enough for.
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And a statement like that leads me to quetion your ability to engage in rational debate without jumping to conclusions. Very easy to dismiss something without coming up with any coherent arguments against it. You can question it all you like but I've explained my stance in a subsequent post, that it's relative to the kind of all round contribution that I would expect from a genuine 20m striker. Gabby falls short as far as I'm concerned and I'm far from being the only one who thinks that way.
Thing is there are very few pundits and managers out there who agree with you and those others who have a derogatory opinion of the bloke.
I still think with Drogba seemingly valued at 24 mill that Gabby would sell for under 20 .
Even Milners price is now dropping I see in the media.
Not sure I understand what you are getting at. You seem to be saying most pundits ánd managers would value Gabby at over 20m but you personally don't. I can't say Ive seen any pundits value Gabby at 20m and I don't recall any bids or valuations from managers in that ball park..
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Sure he's improved his hold up play but reasonable hold up play and fewer than one goal every three games does not equal 20m in my view. Not yet anyway.
Gabby scored 13 in 33 league games last season, that's one every 2.53 games, and 16 in 41 games in all competitions at one every 2.56. Just three more goals in the league and he'd have one every two games and as someone pointed out, he doesn't take penalties. He has his faults but his goal record is improving and already none too shabby.
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There's no way of proving that one way or the other unless we actually sell him. Personally I'd be surprised if anyone, with the possible exception of Cash City, would fork out 20m on a 10-12 goal a season striker who contributes relatively little else to the team.
16 goals last season, but apart from that you are spot on. Well, apart from contributing little else to the team, he contributes hugely and is one of our most missed player when not in the team. So yeah, apart from him scoring 16 goals last season and offering a lot more besides, spot on.
I was thinking PL goals and over his career to date. His average return over the four full seasons he's played is 11.25. Even if you count all his cup goals it's only 12.5 so still not a million miles from my assertion of 10-12 a season. Although admittedly his total has increased each year and he may yet improve and prove me wrong.
I didn't say he contributes little else, I said he contributes relatively little else. It's an important distinction that you overlook. In my opinion he doesn't do as much as some other strikers in terms of , say, clever link up play, creating space for others with intelligent runs (fat chance), reading the game, playing other players in, creating something out of nothing etc. Certainly not enough, in my opinion, to justify a 20 million price tag.
Assists - 2008/09
Rooney - 7
Gabby 8
Assists - 2009/10
Rooney - 5
Gabby - 5
Seeing as Premier League stats are the only stats that matter, "relatively" he does alright.
I personally don't give a shit how much other teams think he's worth, at this moment in time I'd say he's pretty priceless for us.
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According to the official PL website Gabby played 36 games, 1 as sub. That means it's one goal every 2.77 games, a lot nearer to 1 in 3 than 1 in 2. In any case it's all ifs and buts, he didn't get the extra goals and you can only judge him on what he did do, not what he might have done. You can't say he didn't have the chances to improve his tally, how many 1 on 1s did he fluff?
Good point about the penalties though - but would you trust him to take them with his tendency to be not so good when given time to think ?
BTW I don't think Defoe is the Spurs penalty take any longer (Modric?) because he missed something like 6 out of his last 10 or 11 taken.
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WE wouldn't sell him for less than £20m. Arguably no player is worth such a stupid amount of money but Aston Villa, at this moment in time, would not entertain an offer of under £20m for Gabby.
And if we did, we'd be twats and may as well pack it up.
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I don't understand some of the grief that Gabby gets.
He is the one player we miss more than any other when he is not available, has improved year on year and his goal scoring record is comparable with all but the very top scorers in the league.
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Assists - 2008/09
Rooney - 7
Gabby 8
Assists - 2009/10
Rooney - 5
Gabby - 5
Seeing as Premier League stats are the only stats that matter, "relatively" he does alright.
I personally don't give a shit how much other teams think he's worth, at this moment in time I'd say he's pretty priceless for us.
So now you're comparing him to Rooney based on one stat. Okay. But how many goals did Rooney score last season? I don't think you'll get too many agreeing Gabby compares to Rooney.
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Assists - 2008/09
Rooney - 7
Gabby 8
Assists - 2009/10
Rooney - 5
Gabby - 5
Seeing as Premier League stats are the only stats that matter, "relatively" he does alright.
I personally don't give a shit how much other teams think he's worth, at this moment in time I'd say he's pretty priceless for us.
So now you're comparing him to Rooney based on one stat. Okay. But how many goals did Rooney score last season? I don't think you'll get too many agreeing Gabby compares to Rooney.
Rooney may score more goals, but for a player who is supposedly the best of his generation, Gabby can hardly he doing 'relatively little else' when he's matching his assist stats.
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Assists - 2008/09
Rooney - 7
Gabby 8
Assists - 2009/10
Rooney - 5
Gabby - 5
Seeing as Premier League stats are the only stats that matter, "relatively" he does alright.
I personally don't give a shit how much other teams think he's worth, at this moment in time I'd say he's pretty priceless for us.
So now you're comparing him to Rooney based on one stat. Okay. But how many goals did Rooney score last season? I don't think you'll get too many agreeing Gabby compares to Rooney.
You were the one that wanted to talk "relatively".
Let me know the rules of this game and I'll play it with you.
My opinion is that Gabby offers the team a huge amount, you said compared to others he doesn't. I bring up his assists compared to one of the best strikers in the league and you're still not happy.
So apart from scoring more as each season passes and having a better assist rate than one of the best forwards in the league, I agree, he doesn't have much to offer.
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Perhaps if MON got him taking penalties, his overall coolness in front of goal would improve ...
Gabby still frightens the living shite out of defenders for his renowned pace, whcih would be great if others in the team were better goalscorers. The challenge is not getting rid of Gabby, it's finding players who can exploit the space that he and others create.
Try playing Forlan or Ozil or David Villa behind or alongside him and the pairing would be scoring for fun.
Talk of selling him would be madness, given that there is no obvious replacement out there.
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With the best part of 10 years between them in age, comparing the value of Drogba and Gabby is quite misleading. And Milner's value is not dropping, just the press picked a smaller number out of the air this morning when filling column inches!
It is? Why? Drogba is about the best there is and is allegedly being sought for 20 mill, Gabby is not yet and is some suggest worth more than 18. So why is the comparison misleading.
As the press is the sole source of info on prices, seemingly if as you say they are plucking prices out of the air, and they are goiong down, my statement is, even by your reckoning correct, is it not ?
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Perhaps if MON got him taking penalties, his overall coolness in front of goal would improve ...
Gabby still frightens the living shite out of defenders for his renowned pace, whcih would be great if others in the team were better goalscorers. The challenge is not getting rid of Gabby, it's finding players who can exploit the space that he and others create.
Try playing Forlan or Ozil or David Villa behind or alongside him and the pairing would be scoring for fun.
Talk of selling him would be madness, given that there is no obvious replacement out there.
I agree with all of that.
We get what? 6? 7? penalties each season. If Gabby took them and scored most he'd be a 20 goal a season striker.
Defoe, Bent, Keane, Rooney and so many others take penalties for their club sides which inflates their goal tallies.
It is not complex to take a penalty. You just be confident and take it. You can tell how many penalties that miss are bad. So surely if Gabby was to take them he'd if properly practised and coached would put many away as he's a self confident fellow.
I think the coolness in front of goal thing is an excellent point too.
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With the best part of 10 years between them in age, comparing the value of Drogba and Gabby is quite misleading. And Milner's value is not dropping, just the press picked a smaller number out of the air this morning when filling column inches!
It is? Why? Drogba is about the best there is and is allegedly being sought for 20 mill, Gabby is not yet and is some suggest worth more than 18. So why is the comparison misleading.
As the press is the sole source of info on prices, seemingly if as you say they are plucking prices out of the air, and they are goiong down, my statement is, even by your reckoning correct, is it not ?
Here's what you actually said that I replied to:-
Thing is there are very few pundits and managers out there who agree with you and those others who have a derogatory opinion of the bloke.
I still think with Drogba seemingly valued at 24 mill that Gabby would sell for under 20 .
Even Milners price is now dropping I see in the media.
When comparing prices for players the age/resale value is a factor. The fact that Drogba is pretty close to Gabby now in this hypothetical pricing is as he would have longer to play for a prospective buyer and a resale value attached to him, which Drogba does not. IMO, Drogba is twice the player Gabby is, but it terms of 'worth' the age thing balances them out. Look for the example of Robbie Keane and Cartlon Cole if both move this summer, with Keane being a vastly superior player, again IMO.
I can see a clear differential between Milner's price and what the papers are speculating he will be sold for. If you can't, then I can't hep you.
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When comparing prices for players the age/resale value is a factor. The fact that Drogba is pretty close to Gabby now in this hypothetical pricing is as he would have longer to play for a prospective buyer and a resale value attached to him, which Drogba does not. IMO, Drogba is twice the player Gabby is, but it terms of 'worth' the age thing balances them out. Look for the example of Robbie Keane and Cartlon Cole if both move this summer, with Keane being a vastly superior player, again IMO.
See also Torres and Villa. Torres, an inferior but younger player will probably sell for 150% of the price Barcelona paid for Villa.
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Values and stats. Form does have a lot to do with players prices but it gets skewed by how much a team is willing to pay, and what positions they most want to fill. Stats. Rooney last season was some player, even I had to admit that. Yet 5 games later on the worlds stage and im scratching my head as to what the fucking hell happend to the sausage roll lover, and why was he replaced with a clueless oik, that made Hesky look like the star player. Fuck me, I think Gabby would have had much more impact on the team/squad and games than that overrated lump
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So apart from scoring more as each season passes and having a better assist rate than one of the best forwards in the league I agree, he doesn't have much to offer
He may well match Rooney for assists - assuming your stats are correct - but does he match up to Rooney in other areas such as link up play, hold up play, ball retention, closing down the opposition, accuracy of passing, creating chances for others?. That kind of stuff is more subjective and I doubt many people would have Gabby in the same ball park as Rooney.
My point was made in relation to whether he justifies a 20m price tag.Fair enough if you might think his goal record and his assists (God I hate that Americanised stat) are sufficient to justify it, I don't. Not yet anyway.
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How many freekicks does Gabby win? How many times does he chase down a nothing ball, and win us attacking possession?
He also gets his share of assists, his share of goals, and he's a player who causes problems for the opposition.
He's rough around the edges still, but he's a quality player.
As long as we keep Ash and Gab, we've the quality in our side to threaten anybody. Obviously, we'll need a few improvements in the 11, and the bench to make their job easier, and be a more consistent side, but lets see how Martin handles this window.
But as much as Gabby can be immensely frustrating. We'd be a lot worse off without him.
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OK, we can say Gabby is not as good as Rooney, but if we had Rooney would we be comparing him unfavourably to Messi?
We can only judge by what he does for us, which to date has been a lot, despite having some less than impressive spells. He may not be a £20m striker, but anyone we bought clearly better than him would have to be!!
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OK, we can say Gabby is not as good as Rooney, but if we had Rooney would we be comparing him unfavourably to Messi?
We can only judge by what he does for us, which to date has been a lot, despite having some less than impressive spells. He may not be a £20m striker, but anyone we bought clearly better than him would have to be!!
I think that's the point. People say he doesn't score enough goals, or he doesn't create from deep, or whatever, but if he did one of those better in addition to what he already does he'd be one of the best forwards in the world. His all-round game is perfect for us, and without him we'd be in a bit of a hole as to how to build our side.
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Though he isn't worth 20 mill. We could easily get that for him, if we chose to sell. But the market is crazy right now. We'd certainly have to spend as much to improve upon him. But the though we might find an all round better player, said player might not suit Aston Villa as well, as Gabby currently does.
Sell him, and we may as well shut up shop. But I don't think we will anyway.
Milner is the easier to replace out of himself, Ash and Gab.
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Milner is the easier to replace out of himself, Ash and Gab.
Weirdly I agree, despite thinking Milner is the best player out of the three!
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I think Gabby's a superb player, one of the few in our team that I could see going to a team like Man U or Chelsea and being a big success. I think he has a lot more to his game that isn't being given the chance to develop as a result of our one dimensional play.
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Milner is the easier to replace out of himself, Ash and Gab.
Weirdly I agree, despite thinking Milner is the best player out of the three!
I do think we'll need two players to replace Milner in midfield, but still, trying to find a striker as quick and strong as Gabby and as hard working, who still scores you around the 15 mark every season, or a winger as good as Ash, is far harder.
Ireland and a quality holding player would replace Milner nicely, and with 25-30 mill, we could do that.
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When comparing prices for players the age/resale value is a factor.
I can see a clear differential between Milner's price and what the papers are speculating he will be sold for. If you can't, then I can't hep you.
Perhaps you could look back again and show me where I asked you for your help?
Drogba is a tried and tested top striker who has proven at every level that he can score goals and is I'd assume able to continue to do that for a few seasons yet, 3 at least which is about the average contract length. So why would an unproven young striker be sold for a similar or higher price price.
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When comparing prices for players the age/resale value is a factor.
I can see a clear differential between Milner's price and what the papers are speculating he will be sold for. If you can't, then I can't hep you.
Perhaps you could look back again and show me where I asked you for your help?
Drogba is a tried and tested top striker who has proven at every level that he can score goals and is I'd assume able to continue to do that for a few seasons yet, 3 at least which is about the average contract length. So why would an unproven young striker be sold for a similar or higher price price.
You may not have asked for it, but when I see people struggling like this I do like to offer my aid - I'm just that kind of guy!
So, you'd advocate buying a player for £20m+ who would have no sell on value?
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if Villa, or City or Everton signed a player at 20 million for three years, and expected no sell on value, if that player was the reason for said team then breaking the top four the next year, or in those three years, yes most definitely. Its against most of my principals of buying them young and developing players yourself, but sometimes you need that blend. A player who knows what its like to win, and can share that with youngsters. A player who can get you in the top four, and make your team a more viable destination for other top players. A top player that underlines your club means business.
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Milner is the easier to replace out of himself, Ash and Gab.
Weirdly I agree, despite thinking Milner is the best player out of the three!
I think Ash is comfortably the most talented of the three.
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Milner is the easier to replace out of himself, Ash and Gab.
Weirdly I agree, despite thinking Milner is the best player out of the three!
I think Ash is comfortably the most talented of the three.
Definitely, Ash has that kind of natural smoothness on the ball that the other two can only dream of, good as they are.
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I think Roy Keane had a lot of players playing in his generation that were more skillful than him, but who's won most medals and was the player most managers would have loved in their side?
I think Ash has more natural talent than Milner, but I maintain that one both are retired, Jimmy will be remembered as the better player and achieve more.
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We miss Ashley most when he doesn't play.
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Milner would definately be easiest to replace, for sure. At the end of the day Milner is an attacking midfielder. They are not hard to come by. Granted, for Villa they probably are, but never-the-less Young is a more specialised player.
He sticks to the wings (he does do other things), and those kind of attacking wingers are also plenty in supply - but one of Ash's quality would cost a fortune.
And as said, Ash is naturally talented when it comes to control and technique.
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Milner is 80 percent effort, 20 percent skill.
Young is 20 percent effort, 80 percent skill.
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Milner is 80 percent effort, 20 percent skill.
Young is 20 percent effort, 80 percent skill.
Disagree with that , young cannot be faulted for his effort- there may be many things labelled at mons management, but effort is always 100%- young has often raced to track back and cover the defence and impressed me with his hard work.
Maybe you meant young is naurally a lot more skilful than milner which I would agree with.
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Milner is 80 percent effort, 20 percent skill.
Young is 20 percent effort, 80 percent skill.
Disagree with that , young cannot be faulted for his effort- there may be many things labelled at mons management, but effort is always 100%- young has often raced to track back and cover the defence and impressed me with his hard work.
Maybe you meant young is naurally a lot more skilful than milner which I would agree with.
I'm with you on that. Even when he's not playing well he doesn't hide, he'll make up for it in effort.
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I think Milner is easier to replace, but that's mainly because a) we are quite likely to get a good replacement as part of the deal (Ireland) and b) we might already have that replacement in Delph.
I'm not knocking Ash at all, but I do think Milner will prove to be a better all round player over the coming years.
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I think I'll have to agree with Paulie although perhaps not the same percentages.
Sometimes I get the feeling that Ash just isn't there. As if he can't be bothered.
I'm not knocking him though, I love the little cockney!
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I think Milner is easier to replace, but that's mainly because a) we are quite likely to get a good replacement as part of the deal (Ireland) and b) we might already have that replacement in Delph.
I'm not knocking Ash at all, but I do think Milner will prove to be a better all round player over the coming years.
I think Gabby will be the best of the three myself.
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Here's another way of putting it:-
Who will get most caps for England - Gabby, Ash or Milner?
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Probably Milner. But that says as much for the way the England team is run as anything else (see international caps comparison Le Tissier/Phil Neville).
Milner has that safe, dependable quality about him which means he's a shoe-in as an England regular for years. Ash has more of a maverick quality; although he's the most naturally gifted of the trio it wouldn't surprise me if he finished his career with only a sprinkling of England caps. Really can't tell how it will go with Gabby - the whole England striker thing revolves around Rooney.
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Milner is 80 percent effort, 20 percent skill.
Young is 20 percent effort, 80 percent skill.
Disagree with that , young cannot be faulted for his effort- there may be many things labelled at mons management, but effort is always 100%- young has often raced to track back and cover the defence and impressed me with his hard work.
Maybe you meant young is naurally a lot more skilful than milner which I would agree with.
I'm not faulting him for effort - I don't mean he puts in 20 percent effort rather than giving 100 percent, I'm saying that the skill is a much larger part of his game than Milner's.
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I think I'll have to agree with Paulie although perhaps not the same percentages.
Sometimes I get the feeling that Ash just isn't there. As if he can't be bothered.
I'm not knocking him though, I love the little cockney!
See above, that's not what I am actually saying.
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Milner is 80 percent effort, 20 percent skill.
Young is 20 percent effort, 80 percent skill.
Disagree with that , young cannot be faulted for his effort- there may be many things labelled at mons management, but effort is always 100%- young has often raced to track back and cover the defence and impressed me with his hard work.
Maybe you meant young is naurally a lot more skilful than milner which I would agree with.
I'm not faulting him for effort - I don't mean he puts in 20 percent effort rather than giving 100 percent, I'm saying that the skill is a much larger part of his game than Milner's.
I'm witcha'.
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Ash is a tremendously industrious winger but has lost the consistency of delivery he had a couple of seasons ago. If he can get that back he'll once again be the best wide player in the country.
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Milner is 80 percent effort, 20 percent skill.
Young is 20 percent effort, 80 percent skill.
Disagree with that , young cannot be faulted for his effort- there may be many things labelled at mons management, but effort is always 100%- young has often raced to track back and cover the defence and impressed me with his hard work.
Maybe you meant young is naurally a lot more skilful than milner which I would agree with.
I'm not faulting him for effort - I don't mean he puts in 20 percent effort rather than giving 100 percent, I'm saying that the skill is a much larger part of his game than Milner's.
I agree about Ash - relies on skill when he's got the ball but not afraid to work without it.
As to Milner though, I think the immense workrate he shows can make people think that's all he's about, but I think he has much more ability than some give him credit for. That goal away at Sunderland? The pass for Dunne's goal at home to Portsmouth? I think he's got plenty of skill to go with everythign else he brings to the side.
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Milner is 80 percent effort, 20 percent skill.
Young is 20 percent effort, 80 percent skill.
I disagree, I think Young gives plenty of effort.
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Milner is 80 percent effort, 20 percent skill.
Young is 20 percent effort, 80 percent skill.
Disagree with that , young cannot be faulted for his effort- there may be many things labelled at mons management, but effort is always 100%- young has often raced to track back and cover the defence and impressed me with his hard work.
Maybe you meant young is naurally a lot more skilful than milner which I would agree with.
I'm not faulting him for effort - I don't mean he puts in 20 percent effort rather than giving 100 percent, I'm saying that the skill is a much larger part of his game than Milner's.
Ahhh, I get you.
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I think I'll have to agree with Paulie although perhaps not the same percentages.
Sometimes I get the feeling that Ash just isn't there. As if he can't be bothered.
I'm not knocking him though, I love the little cockney!
See above, that's not what I am actually saying.
I know it's not what you're saying - that's what I'm saying.
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I think I'll have to agree with Paulie although perhaps not the same percentages.
Sometimes I get the feeling that Ash just isn't there. As if he can't be bothered.
I'm not knocking him though, I love the little cockney!
See above, that's not what I am actually saying.
I know it's not what you're saying - that's what I'm saying.
Say what, now?
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I think I'll have to agree with Paulie although perhaps not the same percentages.
Sometimes I get the feeling that Ash just isn't there. As if he can't be bothered.
I'm not knocking him though, I love the little cockney!
See above, that's not what I am actually saying.
I know it's not what you're saying - that's what I'm saying.
Say what, now?
I wish you'd all just come out and say it.
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Perhaps one way to think about Gabby's value is to look at the value of players who score "about" the same number of PL goals
09/10
8 Francesc Fabregas Arsenal 15
9 Emmanuel Adebayor Manchester City 14
10 Gabriel Agbonlahor Aston Villa 13
11 Louis Saha Everton 13
12 Dimitar Berbatov Man Utd 12
08/09
4 De Souza Robinho Manchester City 14
5 Fernando Torres Liverpool 14
6 Gabriel Agbonlahor Aston Villa 12
7 Darren Bent Tottenham 12
8 Kevin Davies Bolton 12
07/08
11 Jermain Defoe Portsmouth 12
12 Wayne Rooney Man Utd 12
13 Gabriel Agbonlahor Aston Villa 11
14 Nicolas Anelka Chelsea 11
15 Steven Gerrard Liverpool 11
I don't see many players there who would be valued at less than £20m in today's market and then you take Gabby's age and inexperience into account...
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Good question, and as i said 6 mths ago, all 3 are worth in excess of £75m.
If 2e caqn get £25m or more for Milner, then that is good business, out of the 3 , i think he is the easiest to replace.
Gabby....has the potential to be as good as anybody.Yes he has'nt got the best touch, but he makes up for it with his pace and power.Would give anyone a game, and will be Englands CF for the next 4/5 yrs if Capello has any sense.Would'nt sell him, full stop.
AYoung, should again, if Capello has any sense, be a regular in the new England team, his movement and mobility , and his talent, should be enough, again to be worth in excess of anything we get for Milner.
And then we have Delf and Delph coming through......how much are they going to be worth?
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Good question, and as i said 6 mths ago, all 3 are worth in excess of £75m.
If 2e caqn get £25m or more for Milner, then that is good business, out of the 3 , i think he is the easiest to replace.
Gabby....has the potential to be as good as anybody.Yes he has'nt got the best touch, but he makes up for it with his pace and power.Would give anyone a game, and will be Englands CF for the next 4/5 yrs if Capello has any sense.Would'nt sell him, full stop.
AYoung, should again, if Capello has any sense, be a regular in the new England team, his movement and mobility , and his talent, should be enough, again to be worth in excess of anything we get for Milner.
And then we have Delf and Delph coming through......how much are they going to be worth?
Delph could be the best of the lot if he fully recovers from his injury and is patient in waiting for a proper chance. Milner is a quality footballer and good allrounder, but with some good scouting and a bit of luck we could replace him pretty well for half the price or less from the continent. His value is so high because he is English and we are not a push over any more in selling players. Gabby is a good striker but no more, should be pushed for his place really from next season and Ash has not improved over the last 18 months but is still a very good player. Would be pretty hard to replace. I thought he would be Englands first choice left winger by now mind, and he never has quite got to that level.
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Ash has more natural talent than most players in the league,two footed,good vision. Like most I'd love to see him played off a front man like he did for a while a couple of years ago,maybe giving Albrighton a bit of a chance on the right.
Really hope the Fonz gets a good run in the team as well,but how depressing will it be to see Emile get the number 9 shirt when the squad numbers are released?
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Two footed compared to the Cole's, maybe, but he's never as comfortable on his left peg. There isn't a two footed player left in the Premier League, not many at all, in fact.
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They all have two feet.
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Well done. (clappy thingy)
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I think Ashley is too lightweight to play off a single striker. If he plays behind a front two, he'll often be engaged by midfielders or full backs. Put him up top and we won't keep the ball when enough for me.
I'd still be more gutted to lose him than Milner though.
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Perhaps one way to think about Gabby's value is to look at the value of players who score "about" the same number of PL goals
09/10
8 Francesc Fabregas Arsenal 15
9 Emmanuel Adebayor Manchester City 14
10 Gabriel Agbonlahor Aston Villa 13
11 Louis Saha Everton 13
12 Dimitar Berbatov Man Utd 12
08/09
4 De Souza Robinho Manchester City 14
5 Fernando Torres Liverpool 14
6 Gabriel Agbonlahor Aston Villa 12
7 Darren Bent Tottenham 12
8 Kevin Davies Bolton 12
07/08
11 Jermain Defoe Portsmouth 12
12 Wayne Rooney Man Utd 12
13 Gabriel Agbonlahor Aston Villa 11
14 Nicolas Anelka Chelsea 11
15 Steven Gerrard Liverpool 11
I don't see many players there who would be valued at less than £20m in today's market and then you take Gabby's age and inexperience into account...
It doesn't look quite so good when you take into account the number of games played to get those goals. Games per goal (PL only) tell a slightly different story.
2009-2010
Fabregas 1.80
Adebayor 1.86
Agbonlahor 2.77
Berbatov 2.75
Saha 2.54
2008-2009
Robinho 2.21
Torres 1.71
Agbonlahor 3.00
Bent 2.75
Davies 3.17
2007-2008
Defoe 1.50
Rooney 2.25
Agbonlahor 3.36
Anelka 2.91
Gerrard 3.09
And that doesn;t take into account the percentage of those appearnaces made as sub, which in the cases of Berbatov, Saha, and Bent were much higher than Gabby i.e. fewer minutes on the pitch.
The one thing you can say is that Gabby is clearly improving year on year, but if I were going to spend 20m or more on a striker I'd expect him to be averaging a goal every 2.25-2.5 games at the very least. He's not quite there yet.