Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Clampy on January 15, 2025, 04:52:03 PM
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Looks like it needed a thread.
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Looks like it needed a thread.
Hooray , welcome Yazin !! :D
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The other players have already given him the nickname 'Vern'.
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SAVPWABC
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I don't care whether he signs, I just hope he and the mate whose shoulders he was sitting on got served the pint they so richly deserve.
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Looks like it needed a thread.
Hooray , welcome Yazin !! :D
Ya-ssa-ssin
I'm not...A MOODY GUY!
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Looks like it needed a thread.
What, his big coat?
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Can he kick it? (Yazin Ozcan!)....
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Can he kick it? (Yazin Ozcan!)....
Close the thread. This wins.
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Was spotted in the stands today too, sat just in front of Malen.
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Was spotted in the stands today too, sat just in front of Malen.
Wearing a Villa hat.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GhXNWGkXgAEr0as?format=jpg)
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Malen's come along in one of those kids' superhero fancy dress costumes with the muscle contours.
Fun guy.
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Is this the left footed centre half?
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Is he the guy staying where he is on loan?
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Left-sided defender, if the internet is to be believed he’s staying on loan in Turkey for the rest of the season.
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Can he kick it? (Yazin Ozcan!)....
Close the thread. This wins.
Flawless victory.
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Malen's come along in one of those kids' superhero fancy dress costumes with the muscle contours.
If anyone wants to emulate the muscular superhero look, it's a CP Company DD Shell down-filled jacket.
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Yazin, Ozcan boogie, but I need a special song…
Ozcan boogie, boogie woogie all night long.
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Can he kick it? (Yazin Ozcan!)....
Close the thread. This wins.
Flawless victory.
Proof that Bowie's Lodger is still overlooked.
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Welcome Yazin.
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Can he kick it? (Yazin Ozcan!)....
Close the thread. This wins.
Flawless victory.
Proof that Bowie's Lodger is still overlooked.
C'mon Eamonn, Don't Look Back in Anger, it's time to Move On
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Can he kick it? (Yazin Ozcan!)....
Close the thread. This wins.
Flawless victory.
Proof that Bowie's Lodger is still overlooked.
It’s the start of a fantastic voyage for Yazin, I hope.
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That's more like it - when us boys keep swinging.
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He's 18, so very much a Ned-style signing who I don't expect to see in the first team any time soon (certainly not this season). He does however look to be a bit of a unit for an 18 year-old in some of the photos online though, so maybe he'll be ready a bit earlier than expected. He's also played 70+ top flight games in Turkey, so it's not like we're purely buying a youth player here.
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Can he kick it? (Yazin Ozcan!)....
Close the thread. This wins.
Flawless victory.
Proof that Bowie's Lodger is still overlooked.
Sure lots on here got it, a great album.
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Seems this one slipped though as well. Signed a 4 and a half year deal and loaned back to Kasimpasa.
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Where is the link to say he's signed, please?
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Played 74 games and scored 4 according to wiki, at the age of 18!
Born in 2006 - god I feel old
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12 u21 caps and made the last Turkish National team as an unused sub
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Where is the link to say he's signed, please?
https://x.com/J_Tanswell/status/1886688538592153898
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From The Athletic piece in Jacob Tanswell tweet
More broadly, Villa had been working on longer-term defensive targets. Yasin Ozcan, 18, has signed a four-and-a-half-year deal from Turkish side Kasimpasa, worth €7m upfront with a further €1m in possible add-ons. The Athletic understands a deal is completed, but Ozcan will stay at Kasimpasa until the end of the season.
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Thanks both. Sounds promising.
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Good stuff. I was hoping we'd signed this kid but, like CDBF, was wondering why there'd been no official confirmation of it.
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Very under the radar. Sounds like a really promising player.
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Please be pre- World Cup Alpay, not the complete nimrod who came back.
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More broadly, Villa had been working on longer-term defensive targets. Yasin Ozcan, 18, has signed a four-and-a-half-year deal from Turkish side Kasimpasa, worth €7m upfront with a further €1m in possible add-ons. The Athletic understands a deal is completed, but Ozcan will stay at Kasimpasa until the end of the season.
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Now confirmed on the OS.
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Yeah, just on SSN. Wonder why the delay announcing?
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Yeah, just on SSN. Wonder why the delay announcing?
The Turkish transfer window has different dates, so I don't think there was any rush to get this finalised
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Yeah, just on SSN. Wonder why the delay announcing?
"announce when went, announce when we waaant, we're Aston Villa we announce when we want..."
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Yeah, just on SSN. Wonder why the delay announcing?
He was waiting to see how Asensio played for us before committing.
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Yeah, just on SSN. Wonder why the delay announcing?
He was waiting to see how Asensio played for us before committing.
You make rash decisions with a chub-on.
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Yeah, just on SSN. Wonder why the delay announcing?
He was waiting to see how Asensio played for us before committing.
You make rash decisions with a chub-on.
Ha! *laughs nervously*
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Won't get too excited about him til he gets a run in the first team if that ever happens. We sell our kids wily-nilly these days. The signing of Ned just seems pointless, give up on him after a handful of cameos. I assume that's part of the future now.
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I feel this young Turkish will just be another cattle and a just brought up to be sold for profit
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Yeah, just on SSN. Wonder why the delay announcing?
I reckon it’s to let us know they haven’t been naïve about signing defenders and there is a plan
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I feel this young Turkish will just be another cattle and a just brought up to be sold for profit
Time is on his side, but he needs to not let them put him down or push him around.
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Won't get too excited about him til he gets a run in the first team if that ever happens. We sell our kids wily-nilly these days. The signing of Ned just seems pointless, give up on him after a handful of cameos. I assume that's part of the future now.
If won't seem pointless if Leipzig sign him for £15m at the end of the season. We've taken a punt on a young player, it hasn't worked out (yet, there's still time), but if he does go permanently, we'll make a few million in profit that can go into the coffers for the next transfer window. If the numbers are correct, the profit we will make on him would be a year of someone's wages at £100k a week.
I think we all have to come to terms with the fact that in the modern game, and the FFP/PSR as it is, we're going to be buying young players knowing the chances of them becoming first team players is pretty slim, but who we think we can turn a profit on over the space of a year or two.
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I feel this young Turkish will just be another cattle and a just brought up to be sold for profit
Time is on his side, but he needs to not let them put him down or push him around.
I agree. Don’t let them ever change your point of view.
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I feel this young Turkish will just be another cattle and a just brought up to be sold for profit
There's nothing wrong with selling cattle on for profit.
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He's signed on a pre-contract agreement rather than a buy and loan back arrangement. So he's committed to us from the summer and suggests he's not just being bought and sold.
We'll see whether he gets branded or not.
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If the worst case scenario is to make an £8m profit (nearly £10m when taking amortisation into account) on him, then it's not a bad policy to buy promising young players who you hope are good enough to make the first team squad. Even if you ultimately determine that they're not.
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All transfers are in the 'will he, won't he?' category. Unless you're signing Messi... Or Morgan Rogers, of course.
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Welcome Yasin. Hopefully you match the potential talent of our last Turkish centre-half but have a bit of a better mentality and attitude.
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I understand that we might have to be creative to get round the closed shop stitchup ahem I mean PSR. I just don't want us to become like Chelsea whoring out young talent with no intention of ever giving them a proper chance in the first team.
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He's signed on a pre-contract agreement rather than a buy and loan back arrangement. So he's committed to us from the summer and suggests he's not just being bought and sold.
We'll see whether he gets branded or not.
Let’s face it, it’s not Monchi’s first rodeo.
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What's the likelihood of this bloke being part of the plans next season ?
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I feel this young Turkish will just be another cattle and a just brought up to be sold for profit
Time is on his side, but he needs to not let them put him down or push him around.
Surprised FV didn't get slaughtered for this.
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Will probably end up being farmed out to Red Bull Salzburg....
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Confirmed, it's signed and sealed. https://x.com/AVFCOfficial/status/1940085582698369198
Welcome, Yasin!
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GuyRMQuX0AcmHwa?format=jpg&name=large)
Powered by my favourite of all the berries.
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Confirmed, it's signed and sealed. https://x.com/AVFCOfficial/status/1940085582698369198
Welcome, Yasin!
Hope he's not a moody guy.
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Welcome again Yasin.
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Left back? Back up for Maatsen. Digne off?
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Left back? Back up for Maatsen. Digne off?
Moreno, more likely.
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Just been reading up about this guy. He was considered one thr best players in the world for his age group and has played nearly 100 first team games for his Turkish club. Could be an interesting signing.
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Confirmed, it's signed and sealed. https://x.com/AVFCOfficial/status/1940085582698369198
Welcome, Yasin!
Hope he's not a moody guy.
Hope he's here permanently and not just a Lodger
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I have sacrificed a sheep in his name. Nothing can go wrong now.
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Should be a decent backup keeper with a name like that.
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Confirmed, it's signed and sealed. https://x.com/AVFCOfficial/status/1940085582698369198
Welcome, Yasin!
Hope he's not a moody guy.
Hope he's here permanently and not just a Lodger
Thank you! Was worried it was only philistines for miles around. Thought Haines was our only cross-over...
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Couldn't leave you hanging after a great reference
;D
EDIT - Been quite a while since I listened to the album, so got it playing now
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Just been reading up about this guy. He was considered one thr best players in the world for his age group and has played nearly 100 first team games for his Turkish club. Could be an interesting signing.
Same here, I have high hopes for this kid.
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Just been reading up about this guy. He was considered one thr best players in the world for his age group and has played nearly 100 first team games for his Turkish club. Could be an interesting signing.
Same here, I have high hopes for this kid.
Well, we may to wait - rumoured too be off to Anderlecht for a season.
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Remarkable. I wonder if we're planning on buying some players who might, well, you know, actually play for us.
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Indeed.
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It’s Homes under the Hammer football club style. Buy players that have potential. Do them up and sell them for a decent profit.
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I’m sure when they made these rules they hadn’t really thought it through too well. It’s not a good look for football. I wonder if this is also hampering the lower end of the leagues. Less of their potential staying a bit longer at the smaller clubs and instead the bigger boys snapping them up far sooner in the hope they make the profit instead of the Exeter City’s and the like.
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They did for that when the Premier League basically dangled the carrot to the Football League that they’d give them money they desperately needed if they agreed to wave the rules around academy players so that PL clubs could basically sweep them up from anywhere in the country.
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Are Anderlecht a step up from the league Ozcan was playing in?
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It’s Homes under the Hammer football club style.
I've bad news for you, we've just signed Robert HutH.
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We just buy players as stock, now, to be sold on when their value increases. We've basically become Chelsea, but with much less money and none of those pesky trophies.
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We just buy players as stock, now, to be sold on when their value increases. We've basically become Chelsea, but with much less money and none of those pesky trophies.
Well yes, but we haven’t had the luxury Chelsea had under Abramovich and our strategy always included this approach given the constraints. Left sided centre backs come with a premium if they make it so you can see the logic.
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According to some Anderlecht has a buy option on the deal. If true, it makes zero sense at this stage for Villa. This summer has been weird.
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According to some Anderlecht has a buy option on the deal. If true, it makes zero sense at this stage for Villa. This summer has been weird.
It doesn’t make sense for the player either. Presumably they could have just bought him directly a few months ago.
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According to some Anderlecht has a buy option on the deal. If true, it makes zero sense at this stage for Villa. This summer has been weird.
That would be odd and disappointing. I understand young players don’t make it, but if we are loaning with an option to buy within 6 months of getting a player it is grim.
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I guess it gives Emery the chance to have a close look. When he thinks they're not right, you benefit from amortization. 5.5m euro's over 5 years is around 1m euro's. You only have to to sell at the price you bought at and you 5x your money on the books.
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Yeah it’s still bollocks though.
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Yeah it’s still bollocks though.
All of it is.
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I guess it gives Emery the chance to have a close look. When he thinks they're not right, you benefit from amortization. 5.5m euro's over 5 years is around 1m euro's. You only have to to sell at the price you bought at and you 5x your money on the books.
You have to write off his remaining value as well when you sell though so if he’s only been here 5 minutes then there’s still €5m on the b/s (less whatever gets amortised during this season). Would seem a bit strange and pointless to be honest if it’s true re a clause in the Anderlecht deal
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It might amount to nothing and he might go onto to have a great Villa career. But I had real high hopes when I heard about him, the idea that we’re potentially looking at him as a financial transaction is just grim.
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And he’s gone on loan - it’s probably the absence of anything happening, but I do find this particularly irritating.
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Agreed it feels shit but realistically this approach is the only legal way of potentially generating significant income. With the rules as they are Villa need 1 or 2 Duran's every season to give us the spending bandwidth we need to at least try and be competitive.
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It might amount to nothing and he might go onto to have a great Villa career. But I had real high hopes when I heard about him, the idea that we’re potentially looking at him as a financial transaction is just grim.
and any other potential talented players looking at this will think twice before they come to us
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These loans with options to buy are great if the option is taken up, but presumably less so if we then just loan again?
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It does seem a bit strange. It also means we will probably bring another centre half in though I suppose.
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Agreed it feels shit but realistically this approach is the only legal way of potentially generating significant income. With the rules as they are Villa need 1 or 2 Duran's every season to give us the spending bandwidth we need to at least try and be competitive.
This is it. We all know the ladder has been pulled up by the Scab 6. We’re going to need to do *something* to get more money, and that will either be extracting more money out of the supporters (eg through terrace view) or through player sales (eg the homes under the hammer approach).
The advantage of the latter is that nobody is worse off really. We’re essentially acting like an agent - scouting out players, finding them a suitable club, then taking a tidy cut home.
I’d rather that than the alternative personally, however much I think it’s not really good for football overall that it’s a thing.
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It does seem a bit strange. It also means we will probably bring another centre half in though I suppose.
Unai’s interview seems to suggest not. Without more outgoings anyway.
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I’m less bothered by this horse trading of players.
Maybe because it mirrors my strategy on Football Manager so is therefore morally fine and also a guaranteed route to success.
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It does seem a bit strange. It also means we will probably bring another centre half in though I suppose.
Unai’s interview seems to suggest not. Without more outgoings anyway.
That leaves us with three centre backs so I'd be surprised if one more didn't come in.
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This is starting to get worrying now.
I get the buying and selling but the the guy has been here days and is punted on loan with a buy option.
How much are we potentially going to make on him and is it worth the effort and distraction whilst we’re doing nothing to strengthen the squad?
Are literally none of these young players good enough?
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Beyond thinking about their potential future value seems pretty pointless having any interest in any young players we sign any more.
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It does seem a bit strange. It also means we will probably bring another centre half in though I suppose.
Unai’s interview seems to suggest not. Without more outgoings anyway.
That leaves us with three centre backs so I'd be surprised if one more didn't come in.
Unless he considers Bogarde ready to be the right side cover.
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If this was their intention from the off why bother with all the welcoming bullshit with him wearing the colours?
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How much more readiness does he need? 19 played a lot last year and already capped by his country!
https://www.avfc.co.uk/news/2025/august/02/-zcan-seals-anderlecht-loan-/
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Scrabbling around looking for millions like this, I'm almost resigned to JJ being sold which is a fucking pisser.
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As for Ozcan's razor, the bloke probably started shaving last year. Buying him and selling him on quickly for a quick buck must be the most rational explanation...
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I bet the option to buy us with a chunky sell on/buy back too, so if he does well and they sign him we cash in again when they flog him to Inter a year later.
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No mention of an option to buy on the OS. I think there was with Nedeljkovic. So maybe that bit is bollocks? If it is, he was always likely to go on loan as we already have 2 left-sided centre backs in Mings and Torres so he wasn't going to get much game time.
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I'm not going to get too worked up over a young player I've never seen, who is probably a long way from being a first team player, being loaned out or sold for profit. I'm sure any agreement is tipped in our favour.
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No, I don’t get this one. At all. With the lack of activity across the board, this and Enzo have grated me a bit more than they should do.
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No mention of an option to buy on the OS. I think there was with Nedeljkovic. So maybe that bit is bollocks? If it is, he was always likely to go on loan as we already have 2 left-sided centre backs in Mings and Torres so he wasn't going to get much game time.
A loan makes sense, a loan with an option to buy doesn't.
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No mention of an option to buy on the OS. I think there was with Nedeljkovic. So maybe that bit is bollocks? If it is, he was always likely to go on loan as we already have 2 left-sided centre backs in Mings and Torres so he wasn't going to get much game time.
A loan makes sense, a loan with an option to buy doesn't.
A loan with an option to buy would make sense depending on
1. The amount of the option to buy
2. The percentage of any sell-on clause that we'll undoubtedly negotiate.
3. Whether we insert a buy-back/matching price option into the sell to RSC Anderlecht.
Because we're being screwed by SCR and PSR rules, we've got to try and bring in money from anywhere and everywhere.
In 2023-24 home games brought in £28m.
Obviously it was a higher amount last season with ECL games - say £45m.
Add 10% to that this year ftom price increases/changes to price bands, and we're looking at c.£50m.
Everybody's moaning about ticket price rises.
Bringing in £25m a year on player trading would be the equivalent of increasing capacity by 50%, which if you add in the extra income from the extra 8,000 Witton End seats will (hopefully) mean that ticket prices won't have to go up so rapidly in the future.
The club's got to get money from somewhere.
Player trading is one part of the income equation and, much as it goes against traditional views - it's here to stay. Look at how Brentford, Brighton, Chelsea and Citeh make it work.
We can't ignore it, and we need to be better at it.
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Not too sure I'm that keen on this sort of thing if it is an option to buy but as much as it stinks a little, it's here to stay in this financial rule adhering
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Everybody's moaning about ticket price rises.
I heard mentioned that the increased ticket prices for CL games brought in a whopping, life changing, additional £900k.
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That's equal to 3 weeks of an injured Rashford!
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Everybody's moaning about ticket price rises.
I heard mentioned that the increased ticket prices for CL games brought in a whopping, life changing, additional £900k.
I assume that figure is per game.
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Everybody's moaning about ticket price rises.
I heard mentioned that the increased ticket prices for CL games brought in a whopping, life changing, additional £900k.
I assume that figure is per game.
Widely reported that we made £15m from the 4 league phase home games. So £3.75m per match. Add on the last 16 and quarter final home ties, and that brings it to £22.5m from 6 fixtures.
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That's equal to 3 weeks of an injured Rashford!
once we were out the ECL the guy bailed on us . He did play well at times though but was always a temporary move .
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Everybody's moaning about ticket price rises.
I heard mentioned that the increased ticket prices for CL games brought in a whopping, life changing, additional £900k.
I assume that figure is per game.
Can only be. I obviously wasn't paying too much attention or more likely, it was poorly explained. ;-)
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That's equal to 3 weeks of an injured Rashford!
once we were out the ECL the guy bailed on us . He did play well at times though but was always a temporary move .
He was injured.
Honestly, Coops, do you put any thought into some of these posts?
I just read this post without seeing who the poster was, and I just knew it'd be you.
That's not a good thing.
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That's equal to 3 weeks of an injured Rashford!
once we were out the ECL the guy bailed on us . He did play well at times though but was always a temporary move .
Coops has just figured out what a loan is.
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I don’t suppose this young man is part of the A-list squad and him going out on loan means we can bring somebody in.
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I don’t suppose this young man is part of the A-list squad and him going out on loan means we can bring somebody in.
Yeah but we've only just brought him in
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Disasi is the obvious answer if we’re so minded to actually add to the squad. As a centre-half I’m happy with him as an option and he was part of our A squad so he’s not an addition - if I’ve understood correctly.
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I don’t suppose this young man is part of the A-list squad and him going out on loan means we can bring somebody in.
That’s not how it works. He wasn’t in the A-list last season either, because he didn’t play for us.
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I don’t suppose this young man is part of the A-list squad and him going out on loan means we can bring somebody in.
That’s not how it works. He wasn’t in the A-list last season either, because he didn’t play for us.
But couldn't we tell EUFA that he'd have been part of the A list for this season but the offer from Anderlecht was too good to turn down? Genuine question as I'm unclear on this ruling. I presume we cannot add a single player without selling one, when we have no asensio, rashford, disasi etc this season?
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If we're reading it right, it's that we can't have any new players who weren't on last seasons A list unless we have a positive spend on players who were on that list.
So getting money for say, Moreno doesn't help. It also means we can't use Malen or Garcia in Europe unless we have a positive net spend as they weren't on that list last season.
But ironically we could use Disasi if we bought him, presumably.
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If we're reading it right, it's that we can't have any new players who weren't on last seasons A list unless we have a positive spend on players who were on that list.
So getting money for say, Moreno doesn't help. It also means we can't use Malen or Garcia in Europe unless we have a positive net spend as they weren't on that list last season.
But ironically we could use Disasi if we bought him, presumably.
Jeese that is punitive. I’d assumed it was just total spend from last seasons a-list (ie were already Disasi rashford asensio up but Malen Garcia down) seems mental that the actual players have to be the same…
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I think I am just not getting this. Last year‘s A list contained Rashford, Disasi, Asensio, who are all now gone but surely they can be replaced by Malen and Garcia? Olson has been replaced by Bizot and we have space for one more player as only two of the three outfield players have been replaced?
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I think I am just not getting this. Last year‘s A list contained Rashford, Disasi, Asensio, who are all now gone but surely they can be replaced by Malen and Garcia? Olson has been replaced by Bizot and we have space for one more player as only two of the three outfield players have been replaced?
I'm not getting it either. The rules are crazy. They only seem to affect us as well.
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I think I am just not getting this. Last year‘s A list contained Rashford, Disasi, Asensio, who are all now gone but surely they can be replaced by Malen and Garcia? Olson has been replaced by Bizot and we have space for one more player as only two of the three outfield players have been replaced?
I'm not getting it either. The rules are crazy. They only seem to affect us as well.
Someone mentioned Chelsea paid extra in a fine so they wouldn't be under those rules, which is lucky for them being as the A list last season was the bomb squad mostly so very few of the £200mil they have bought in could be registered. (Reports online seem to think they have been hit with the same restrictions though.)
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According to the press statement we "could be prevented from registering new players for Uefa competitions for the forthcoming season unless they [we] have a positive transfer balance by the end of the summer transfer window."
Two bits are important: 'could be prevented' is not a definitive statement of action but a conditional.
'positive transfer balance' strongly suggests that the focus is not on numbers of players but on the financial status - we need to bring in more dosh than we spend.
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I think I am just not getting this. Last year‘s A list contained Rashford, Disasi, Asensio, who are all now gone but surely they can be replaced by Malen and Garcia? Olson has been replaced by Bizot and we have space for one more player as only two of the three outfield players have been replaced?
They could, were we not being punished by UEFA.
They're basically saying "you've been naughty transfer boys and spent too much, so until you get your house in order you can't use any of your shiny new toys in our competitions. If you fix it by bringing in more than you spend for a bit, you can bring your new players to our party".
It's the sort of sanction that I imagine we'd be applauding for it's common sense if it were happening to someone else.
The UEFA ruling says
All clubs further agreed to be subject to a restriction on the registration of new players on their List A for UEFA club competitions. Such a measure could be conditional, unconditional or both and covers one or more seasons depending on the length of the settlement.
Moreover, all clubs agreed to reach intermediate annual targets, and to the application of conditional financial and sporting measures should these targets not be met (i.e. stricter restriction on the registration of new players on the list A and exclusion from the next UEFA club competitions for which they will qualify).
But the whole "conditional" thing does seem interesting. But it's hard to see why we're not doing anything and all the other clubs are merrily bringing in players.
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I think I am just not getting this. Last year‘s A list contained Rashford, Disasi, Asensio, who are all now gone but surely they can be replaced by Malen and Garcia? Olson has been replaced by Bizot and we have space for one more player as only two of the three outfield players have been replaced?
I'm not getting it either. The rules are crazy. They only seem to affect us as well.
Someone mentioned Chelsea paid extra in a fine so they wouldn't be under those rules, which is lucky for them being as the A list last season was the bomb squad mostly so very few of the £200mil they have bought in could be registered. (Reports online seem to think they have been hit with the same restrictions though.)
Surely that can’t be true, they can’t have pay as you play FFP, depending on how much you pay.
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I think I am just not getting this. Last year‘s A list contained Rashford, Disasi, Asensio, who are all now gone but surely they can be replaced by Malen and Garcia? Olson has been replaced by Bizot and we have space for one more player as only two of the three outfield players have been replaced?
I'm not getting it either. The rules are crazy. They only seem to affect us as well.
Someone mentioned Chelsea paid extra in a fine so they wouldn't be under those rules, which is lucky for them being as the A list last season was the bomb squad mostly so very few of the £200mil they have bought in could be registered. (Reports online seem to think they have been hit with the same restrictions though.)
Surely that can’t be true, they can’t have pay as you play FFP, depending on how much you pay.
Paid an extra fine and deferred the punishment for a year. Paul-e mentions it again in the FFP thread about the deferrment, although I haven't found anything to state it has anywhere else and they supposedly have the restrictions for the next two seasons according to the initial UEFA punishment.
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Chelsea certainly know all the angles. I'd say fair play to their ingenuity if it didn't make me gag.
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Chelsea certainly know all the angles. I'd say fair play to their ingenuity if it didn't make me gag.
Also they have had years with no system to beat and they still cheated so never fair play