Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: The Edge on January 08, 2025, 08:58:48 AM
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Just watched this for the first time on Sky Sports. Presented by Michael Owen and Howard Webb. Quite interesting to hear the interactions between match officials and Stockley Park. One thing that really grated on my nerves was the chumminess of the whole thing. It's clear from the conversations that it's become an exercise in mate's covering their mate's arse. They discussed Durans sending off at Newcastle and the two "assistants" at Stockley Park were both of the opinion that it was worthy just a caution. The match ref "Tayls" came on and said "he's (Scharr) holding himself somewhere else (his groin) so I'm calling it a red" Cue his Stockley Park mate's agreeing with him instead of correcting him and Webb and Owen backing up Tayls sending him off for dangerous play and not a mention of his comment that Scharr was holding his bollocks when he absolutely wasn't. VAR is a sham and so is that programme.
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Not sure what VAR was supposed to be "correcting" on the decision by the ref once he had made it. I agree he made it wrongly based only on one other part of the body being held for an incident not seen, but they couldn't show no studs hitting Schar which would have the requirement for an obvious error by the ref.
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If any referee/VAR discussion includes wording referring to a player holding a part of his body we are in deep shit.
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If any referee/VAR discussion includes wording referring to a player holding a part of his body we are in deep shit.
Yep, I felt that was the issue. VAR did mention the left foot catching the glute before the right foot caught the back, but I don't think VAR would have upgraded it based on the discussion on the field going yellow until Taylor decided holding another part of the body was a red instantly.
It did make a mockery of Dermot stating that Taylor "really took his time before making the decision" in the previous ref-watch when he literally jumped straight to red based on him holding somewhere else when he might have been holding it because he had tweaked his muscle landing.
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The ref guessed and told his VAR colleagues that'd he'd reverse it he was wrong. But given the slight subjective nature of it they were never going to reverse it. It should have happened the other way around - let it go and let VAR check if for any blatant violent conducr.
As for Webb in the studio, he completely ignored the point that Owen raised about Duran's left ankle collapsing under him when he planted it
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Sky didn't pick up on anything. It is a shame they don't have the guy who presents Ref watch as he might have asked.
"Hold on Webby, you just stated the ref gave the red card because he saw the challenge, yet from the audio he only gave red because he saw the player holding another part of the body. That doesn't sound like it was the foot on the back or he actually fully saw the challenge".
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Not sure what VAR was supposed to be "correcting" on the decision by the ref once he had made it. I agree he made it wrongly based only on one other part of the body being held for an incident not seen, but they couldn't show no studs hitting Schar which would have the requirement for an obvious error by the ref.
They could have corrected him that Duran did not kick him in the groin which was the referees perception. If they still thought it was a red card for the contact of Durans boot on Scharrs back then fair enough but the audio implies that Taylor sent him off for a kick in the groin.
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If any referee/VAR discussion includes wording referring to a player holding a part of his body we are in deep shit.
Yep, I felt that was the issue. VAR did mention the left foot catching the glute before the right foot caught the back, but I don't think VAR would have upgraded it based on the discussion on the field going yellow until Taylor decided holding another part of the body was a red instantly.
It did make a mockery of Dermot stating that Taylor "really took his time before making the decision" in the previous ref-watch when he literally jumped straight to red based on him holding somewhere else when he might have been holding it because he had tweaked his muscle landing.
Or simply that his knackers were caught in his pants and he was adjusting them.
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The whole show is an arse-covering exercise. A sham. Webb is the kind of perfect apparatchik who'd do really well under Franco.
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Bit dark...
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The whole show is an arse-covering exercise. A sham. Webb is the kind of perfect apparatchik who'd do really well under Franco.
They all are, they self-select the same kind of character over and over again.
They put me in mind of Qing dynasty eunuchs.
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The whole show is an arse-covering exercise. A sham. Webb is the kind of perfect apparatchik who'd do really well under Franco.
They all are, they self-select the same kind of character over and over again.
They put me in mind of Qing dynasty eunuchs.
Their first couple of singles were great. Classic balls-out, old school punk
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What I can't get over is how frantic it all seems. Taylor is seemingly talking to Villa players (presumably Ginny) when he should be in dialogue with Stockley Park. He's not even listening to them. Compare to the clear and lucid exchanges between Ref and TMO in rugby. The whole process is a shambles led by the incompetence of those operating it, who are then solely focussed on covering for each other. No way Salah / Kane go in that incident.
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I bet if thats bruno Fernandes he would have just about got a yellow or no booking
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What I can't get over is how frantic it all seems. Taylor is seemingly talking to Villa players (presumably Ginny) when he should be in dialogue with Stockley Park. He's not even listening to them. Compare to the clear and lucid exchanges between Ref and TMO in rugby. The whole process is a shambles led by the incompetence of those operating it, who are then solely focussed on covering for each other. No way Salah / Kane go in that incident.
Kane 'tackle' on Rogers in the game just a couple of months back was far worse and there was intent.
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I bet if thats bruno Fernandes he would have just about got a yellow or no booking
Given he won a penalty by standing on Konsa's foot you're probably right.
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Although in an incident where he didn't touch a player and only showed studs as he slipped, Ratface was straight red carded by the ref and that decision fully backed up by VAR, so using Fernandes is not making the point you think it was.
And before anyone points out it was rescinded by the FA, this discussion is solely on the refs and VAR decision.
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With all the confused commentary by VAR and the ref, it just demonstrated there was a lot going on with just one tackle. Scharr was pretty aggressive (he could have knocked the ball out and stayed on his feet, but I think wanted to leave a bit on Duran).
Duran was equally aggressive and there were feet going everywhere (including Duran’s groin). His foot does land on Scharr’s back but describing it as a rake is really blowing it out of proportion.
Ultimately they could have easily let it go entirely but Taylor let himself get poorly influenced by what he thought he’d seen.
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The big thing here was Taylor not listening to anyone and then making the decision in almost gleeful haste. He just comes over as totally incompetent in that moment. The VAR had little room to manoeuvre despite telling him twice it was accidental.
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I was watching highlights our cup 1/4 final with the Stripeys a couple of days back, and had forgotten the disgraceful red card given to a very young Jack Grealish at the death.
No prizes for guessing who was the ref that day.
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The man with one, real time view ultimately made the decision, the others, with access to replays from multiple angles were overruled/acquiesced.
So, for the umpteenth time, what is the point of VAR?
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The big thing here was Taylor not listening to anyone and then making the decision in almost gleeful haste. He just comes over as totally incompetent in that moment. The VAR had little room to manoeuvre despite telling him twice it was accidental.
It wasn't VAR who said anything was accidental, it was the fourth official and one of the *Linos And he was listening to them when he suddenly noticed the sore balls and the other lino stated he is holding between his legs. That was when he decided it was a straight red.
*Not sure which one but from bottle boot footage, the one chatting to him seemed to state he had "seen" it so it might have been the far one.
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The big thing here was Taylor not listening to anyone and then making the decision in almost gleeful haste. He just comes over as totally incompetent in that moment. The VAR had little room to manoeuvre despite telling him twice it was accidental.
It wasn't VAR who said anything was accidental, it was the fourth official and one of the *Linos And he was listening to them when he suddenly noticed the sore balls and the other lino stated he is holding between his legs. That was when he decided it was a straight red.
*Not sure which one but from bottle boot footage, the one chatting to him seemed to state he had "seen" it so it might have been the far one.
Whoever it was talking to him, he completely ignored it. The blokes a complete dick.
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The big thing here was Taylor not listening to anyone and then making the decision in almost gleeful haste. He just comes over as totally incompetent in that moment. The VAR had little room to manoeuvre despite telling him twice it was accidental.
Hence Emery's comments about a rushed decision I presume.
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The big thing here was Taylor not listening to anyone and then making the decision in almost gleeful haste. He just comes over as totally incompetent in that moment. The VAR had little room to manoeuvre despite telling him twice it was accidental.
Hence Emery's comments about a rushed decision I presume.
Yep, this transcript really does back up the point Emery made after the game perfectly.
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In today's athletic:
Are Aston Villa too nice?
John-McGinn-Aston-Villa
By Jacob Tanswell
Jan 8, 2025
26
Morgan Rogers’ eyes darted towards the referee.
Aston Villa had scored what they thought was a last-gasp winning goal against Juventus in the Champions League. Pandemonium was supposed to ensue and Rogers, the scorer, was supposed to be leapt upon by team-mates, all celebrating a famous victory.
While Villa Park pierced with sound and players ran towards him, Rogers looked unsure.
He glanced straight to the closest official, referee Jesus Gil Manzano, and then to the assistant referee on the far side, concerned his goal would be ruled out.
Belatedly, Rogers turned the other way and broke out his trademark celebration (contrary to belief, he first came up with it, not Cole Palmer).
Outwardly, the hesitation appeared an admission of guilt. Those concerns were vindicated while Michele Di Gregorio, Juventus’ goalkeeper, remained fixed to the floor. He clutched his knee, lower back and then torso, with six Juventus players surrounding him and the referee.
Pau Torres was the only Villa representative on the scene and failed to convince the officials that Diego Carlos had not fouled the goalkeeper while competing for a cross.
It was the softest of nudges and did not cause Di Gregorio to completely mistime the catch. But the goal was struck off and the game finished goalless.
“The only problem was Morgan Rogers thought they might disallow it,” said former Chelsea midfielder Joe Cole, who was working the match as a pundit for TNT Sports. “He waits and gives the referee a decision.”
“If you just go wild, the crowd are bouncing and don’t even look at the referee, it makes it harder for the referee to blow. All of that plays a part. The referee has to make a decision which isn’t black or white and the amount of contact Diego Carlos is putting in.”
Villa’s patience with officials has worn thin recently, with Unai Emery — an advocate for video assistant referees (VAR) — angered. This has been a sea change in attitude.
In successive weeks away to Nottingham Forest and Newcastle United, post-match press conferences were different. Emery has been critical of penalties not being awarded and, in the case of Jhon Duran, a player who was in his view, unfairly sent off.
“The fact is we are unluckier with the refereeing this season,” he said. “It doesn’t change the reality that we must improve and work very hard to be a better team.
“VAR can be overused to break the spirit of the game but if it exists and is available, VAR neither must be underused on purpose and let big mistakes happen without using all the tools correctly.”
Villa’s polarising home and away form can be explained by a distinctive meekness on the road. In search of lowering the tempo when it suits, Villa have been susceptible to front-footed teams. A passive undercurrent has contributed to five successive league away losses for the first time since February 2017 under Steve Bruce. This is in contrast to a home record of 10 matches unbeaten.
Being deprived of conviction in both boxes has not helped, but there are more intangible factors at play. In simple terms: are Villa too nice?
Away to Nottingham Forest, Emery took aim at the VAR officials at Stockley Park. Elliot Anderson was judged to have only a “fleeting grab” of Rogers’s left arm.
The “fleeting” hold continued into the penalty area and despite Rogers going to ground, referee Samuel Barrott waved away Villa’s gentle protests.
VAR concurred. After the match, Villa director of football Damian Vidagany showed Emery replays of the incident — and in doing so, the Spaniard pivoted from his reflective, sympathetic position towards VAR to pent-up frustration.
“Now I have watched it, it’s a clear penalty,” he said. “It’s a massive mistake from the VAR.” His disbelief was not shared on the pitch at the time.
Compare this to Villa’s opponents on Boxing Day. After Duran supposedly studded Fabian Schar, Newcastle players swarmed referee Anthony Taylor and Duran. Here, Kieran Trippier, Anthony Gordon and Sandro Tonali all converge on Taylor.
In contrast, you see only captain John McGinn making a beeline for the referee when Anderson wasn’t penalised in Villa’s defeat to Forest…
Torres, meanwhile, can only shout a few brief words, before having to retreat due to Forest’s progress upfield.
The game continued after Rogers fell to the floor — unlike the episode at St James’ Park where play was immediately stopped. Regardless, when it did eventually stop, there was little commotion from Villa players.
By extension, a similar controversy involving Anderson led to Forest’s winning goal. Matty Cash was nudged off balance by Anderson, having received an admittedly risky pass from Ezri Konsa in additional time.
Cash fell to the ground and Forest stole the ball. Replays show contact was initiated before Anderson won possession, suggesting Villa had good reason to argue foul.
Only two Villa players appealed: Rogers swatted his arms in frustration while Torres stood with them outstretched. Cash remained on his haunches and Konsa keeled over, rearranging his socks. This did not look like a team which sensed injustice.
Ten days earlier, Cash was involved in another potential foul leading to an opposition goal.
Here, Brentford’s Mikkel Damsgaard scores following Cash’s defensive header. The right-back had again been knocked off balance, this time by Kevin Schade.
Cash was left on the turf and despite a desperate scramble back to his feet, Damsgaard found the net. Cash appealed for the foul and together with Youri Tielemans, marched towards referee Lewis Smith.
Strength in numbers was not forthcoming. Team-mates stood still or, in the case of Boubacar Kamara, looked towards the touchline and to no one in particular, instead throwing his hands out.
Senior Villa figures preach the importance of respect and want Villa to garner a reputation for offering empathy and understanding of the complexities of officiating. If you come from a more dubious standpoint, you could argue the above cases are all demonstrations of where Villa lack an edge.
Maybe it means being more streetwise. Knowing the old tricks, learning how to turn decisions in their favour, rather than sitting back and allowing the opposition to dictate. Villa have the seventh-best disciplinary record in the Premier League, with 42 yellow cards and two reds shown.
On average, they concede the seventh-most fouls per game (11.7) and win the second-most fouls (13), indicating they have no issue in breaking up games — Villa received 13 bookings for either time-wasting or not retreating last season.
go-deeper
GO DEEPER
Infuriating, embarrassing - and funny: What players really think of 'shithousing'
Still, swing moments in matches have often gone against them. Villa are not known for their aggression, ranking low on interceptions, pressures and tackles. This is affirmed on the road, when home teams have been able to destabilise their rhythm.
A case in point came at Stamford Bridge. Jaden Philogene dangled his leg in a 50-50 challenge with Marc Cucurella and was left in a heap.
Chelsea scored immediately after and while Philogene rolled in pain, no foul had been committed. Cucurella was simply more aggressive.
Had Philogene been more robust, Cucurella would not have won the ball as emphatically.
When Nicolas Jackson scored, Philogene was still on the ground. Note the instincts of team-mates, who do not appeal for a foul. The goal followed a pattern of opponents scoring with their first shot on target.
“We believe deeply in respect, honesty and understanding for the referees,” wrote Vidagany on his X account. “It is a hard task. From under-7s to top level. We just expect fair decisions. A crossroads comes when you behave gently and you receive some ‘hard to take’ decisions. Sometimes you face teams that have — it’s their choice based on a plan — a different strategy. More aggressive and verbal attacks. Pressure. Should we change? No.”
Villa are intent on remaining true to their values, even if they have been tested lately. They must find a way to balance respect and not appear too nice, otherwise they remain at risk of coming up short in critical moments.
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That touches on 2 points I've been making for ages.
Firstly we do need to make it clear that, whilst we have respect for refs, that can't be allowed to evolve into them ignoring us and making poor decisions against us because it's easier than upsetting the moaning twat in the other dugout.
Secondly we are incredibly passive in how we defend and right now teams know that so they just go really aggressive against us as a way to shut us down. Again we need to show a bit more steel at times so teams realise we're not a soft touch.
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It was an interesting watch just to see the total incompetent nature of the whole thing.
A complete rush by the referee and the whole thing sounds like a disorganised rabble panicking over a contentious decision.
In this part of the game Rugby puts Football to shame.
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It was an interesting watch just to see the total incompetent nature of the whole thing.
A complete rush by the referee and the whole thing sounds like a disorganised rabble panicking over a contentious decision.
In this part of the game Rugby puts Football to shame.
I think our referees should go to a summer camp and spend some time with Rugby referees. They can learn how to do the job properly how to conduct themselves over the comms and most all how to apply the actual rules instead of making it up as they go along.
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Solid start to the new year from Tanswell. Think we can forgive the "McFarland" aberration, the kid's got enough credit in the bank.
But seriously, yes - physically away from home we are bully-able. Emi, Meatball, Durán and Rogers are the only players that impose their bodies on opponents.
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That touches on 2 points I've been making for ages.
Firstly we do need to make it clear that, whilst we have respect for refs, that can't be allowed to evolve into them ignoring us and making poor decisions against us because it's easier than upsetting the moaning twat in the other dugout.
Secondly we are incredibly passive in how we defend and right now teams know that so they just go really aggressive against us as a way to shut us down. Again we need to show a bit more steel at times so teams realise we're not a soft touch.
It's an unpleasant truth that successful clubs in the PL era have usuallly employed the dark arts. Chelsea were the absolute masters of it during their really successful years when Abramovic was their owner. Newcastle are having a purple patch and it's no coincidence that their levels of shithousery are inextricably linked with their success. They absolutely had a plan to rattle Duran and it worked beautifully for them thanks to the piss weak referee on the day. We have really got to stop being so passive. I wouldn't want us to reach anywhere near Chelseas abhorrent levels but I would be happy for us to be a bit more like Newcastle. As the saying goes: Nice people don't win things.
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The problem is the Dark Arts horse has bolted, unless they fail to punish Citeh, then there could be a free for all.
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The Dark Arts will persist, because the TV punters love it.
Refs will be miked up, there will be more advertising breaks, and the viewing figures will go up.
Alan Sugar had a shitty PC and a Satellite dish, and I believe he is now a Baron.
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The Dark Arts will persist, because the TV punters love it.
Refs will be miked up, there will be more advertising breaks, and the viewing figures will go up.
Alan Sugar had a shitty PC and a Satellite dish, and I believe he is now a Baron.
I think we were talking Financial dark arts. You are probably right regarding the rest of it.
The question is, how come the technology has got better but the refereeing worse?
I do not trust PGMOL and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that it is corrupt.
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Mic'd up?
Strung up might be more appropriate for some of them.
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2 points: (i) we are rarely trying to influence the ref, as others do, and it definitely disadvantages us; (ii) giving the armbands to Martinez when McGinn is off makes no sense unless the controversy is in our penalty area. One of the outfield players has to have the captain-role in order to forcefully manage the ref.
It's pretty frustrating that we are not matching our rivals for ref-management.
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We should bring in John Terry for a one day intensive referee management course. I can’t remember us being so well treated by refs as when he was on the pitch first-naming refs
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Terry was the absolute master of that shit, and comes from a place of respect as I always thought that my greatest skill as a player was ref management.