Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Footy-Vill on July 17, 2023, 02:26:20 PM
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Well its here we have had the striker debate Ings or Watkins and the midfielder debate Coutinho and Buendía .
either or/ both / neither
And now it's the Central Defenders debate regarding 2 left Centre Halves Pau Torres and Tyrone Mings.
The preferred position by both is Left Centre half.
Can they play together? Do they both fit in the team? Will it be unbalanced?
What would you do?
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Sometimes play them both, sometimes play 1 or the other and sometimes play neither, that's how a squad works.
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Couldn't there be more options?
Torres/Mings
Mings/Torres
Torres/[OTHER]
Mings/[OTHER]
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Ask me in three months.
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Two left centre backs in a back four?
Outside of matchups against weak competition, I oppose both left footers players playing.
It's far too off-kilter and not balanced.
I guess there could be scope to see Kamara ability drop back into defence when Pau carries the ball and steps into midfield, but I believe Pau Torres should play alongside a right-footed centre back and be starting first and foremost.
Mings I expected to be an important squad member who will receive less Premier League game time due to Pau arrival is what I think as opinion
I welcome all discussion on this and believe it will be an ongoing situation during the season as a debate.
It's actually brilliant to have 2 really strong left centre backs but the question like Buendia and Coutinho and Watkins and Ings will they both fit in the team? And be able to play together.
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Ask me in three months.
Time will tell
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Couldn't there be more options?
Torres/Mings
Mings/Torres
Torres/[OTHER]
Mings/[OTHER]
No it's like the Watkins and Ings and Buendía and Coutinho question but specifically 2 left centre backs playing in our defence and your thoughts
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Two left centre backs in a back four?
Outside of matchups against weak competition, I oppose both left footers players playing.
It's far too off-kilter and not balanced.
I guess there could be scope to see Kamara ability drop back into defence when Pau carries the ball and steps into midfield, but I believe Pau Torres should play alongside a right-footed centre back and be starting first and foremost.
Mings I expected to be an important squad member who will receive less Premier League game time due to Pau arrival is what I think as opinion
I welcome all discussion on this and believe it will be an ongoing situation during the season as a debate.
It's actually brilliant to have 2 really strong left centre backs but the question like Buendia and Coutinho and Watkins and Ings will they both fit in the team? And be able to play together.
So you created this post to make exactly the same point you'd already made in the Torres thread and which 3-4 people have already disagreed with?
How about you just address the replies in there instead?
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Two left centre backs in a back four?
Outside of matchups against weak competition, I oppose both left footers players playing.
It's far too off-kilter and not balanced.
I guess there could be scope to see Kamara ability drop back into defence when Pau carries the ball and steps into midfield, but I believe Pau Torres should play alongside a right-footed centre back and be starting first and foremost.
Mings I expected to be an important squad member who will receive less Premier League game time due to Pau arrival is what I think as opinion
I welcome all discussion on this and believe it will be an ongoing situation during the season as a debate.
It's actually brilliant to have 2 really strong left centre backs but the question like Buendia and Coutinho and Watkins and Ings will they both fit in the team? And be able to play together.
Footy, I think you're a wonderful human being... but you reject an idea of having two left footed centre backs, but welcome dropping a non-CB player into CB instead? Madness! :P
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Sometimes play them both, sometimes play 1 or the other and sometimes play neither, that's how a squad works.
It will be a hot topic of debate by Villa followers and actually general football followers and pundits.
There was a lot of debate about finding a way to play Ings and Watkins, as well as Buendía and Coutinho. There may be a lot of debate about Pau and Mings. As the season progresses, I'll look forward to reading your thoughts on this topic other than your mocking in your replied statement above.
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Two left centre backs in a back four?
Outside of matchups against weak competition, I oppose both left footers players playing.
It's far too off-kilter and not balanced.
I guess there could be scope to see Kamara ability drop back into defence when Pau carries the ball and steps into midfield, but I believe Pau Torres should play alongside a right-footed centre back and be starting first and foremost.
Mings I expected to be an important squad member who will receive less Premier League game time due to Pau arrival is what I think as opinion
I welcome all discussion on this and believe it will be an ongoing situation during the season as a debate.
It's actually brilliant to have 2 really strong left centre backs but the question like Buendia and Coutinho and Watkins and Ings will they both fit in the team? And be able to play together.
Footy, I think you're a wonderful human being... but you reject an idea of having two left footed centre backs, but welcome dropping a non-CB player into CB instead? Madness! :P
Well I advocate if 2 left centre backs are playing then thats how some of it work.
Also Kamara can play at the back and cover and it's flexibility and positional play really
Let's not call it madness.
John Stones midfield is an example.
I was curious to know if other people thought Pau was an improvement over Mings aswell therefore Mings preffered position is in jeopardy
I see a lot of signs. Pau starts matches, and all signs point to this. Villa paying a premium price for the highly sought-after centre defender whom Emery adores.
He already has playing experience and plays in the Emery style.
Football has changed, and it's no longer just a team game of course but a squad game.
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Sometimes play them both, sometimes play 1 or the other and sometimes play neither, that's how a squad works.
It will be a hot topic of debate by Villa followers and actually general football followers and pundits.
There was a lot of debate about finding a way to play Ings and Watkins, as well as Buendía and Coutinho. There may be a lot of debate about Pau and Mings. As the season progresses, I'll look forward to reading your thoughts on this topic other than your mocking in your replied statement above.
How is that reply mocking you?
He is making a good point, we need to stop thinking in terms of starters and back ups (not referring to you here, but you see it a lot on here), and rather think of a squad of the most talented players we can find, and at any point in the season, those who are playing best / those who most suit the opposition / those who impress most in training, all of these can influence who starts.
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Sometimes play them both, sometimes play 1 or the other and sometimes play neither, that's how a squad works.
It will be a hot topic of debate by Villa followers and actually general football followers and pundits.
There was a lot of debate about finding a way to play Ings and Watkins, as well as Buendía and Coutinho. There may be a lot of debate about Pau and Mings. As the season progresses, I'll look forward to reading your thoughts on this topic other than your mocking in your replied statement above.
My thoughts throughout the season will be that we'll play the best 2 options for the game, based on form, fitness and load-balancing for what might be a 50-60 game season. If you think it's mocking for me to suggest that it's highly likely all 4 of our senior centre backs will all start some games over the season then you have a very low bar for piss-taking but to be clear, it wasn't mockery, it was a statement of facts, and not the sort of facts that you regularly confuse your opinions with.
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My opinion on things like this is clear.
If Unai thinks so, then it is so.
Unai knows best.
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Would not rule Konsa out at this stage
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Sometimes play them both, sometimes play 1 or the other and sometimes play neither, that's how a squad works.
It will be a hot topic of debate by Villa followers and actually general football followers and pundits.
There was a lot of debate about finding a way to play Ings and Watkins, as well as Buendía and Coutinho. There may be a lot of debate about Pau and Mings. As the season progresses, I'll look forward to reading your thoughts on this topic other than your mocking in your replied statement above.
How is that reply mocking you?
He is making a good point, we need to stop thinking in terms of starters and back ups (not referring to you here, but you see it a lot on here), and rather think of a squad of the most talented players we can find, and at any point in the season, those who are playing best / those who most suit the opposition / those who impress most in training, all of these can influence who starts.
The thats how a squad works comment. But I've moved on.
If i may ask
There's an inability or disregard to focus on the question both by you and by Paul E?
If you don't want to engage in discussion on where your head is at with two left centre backs both playing then perhaps you will start forming more of an opinion when they do or don't play.
I've started a conversation on this, which could turn out to be a hot topic, and I believe it's really useful for people to think about it now if they want to.
I made it simple for people to comprehend, similar to how Watkins, Ings, or Coutinho, and Buendía fit into the team.
Of course, I have foresight, but I recognise and summise that proof and games being played may be required for some before they choose to participate in this conversation seriously
I understand some need evidence before commenting before giving a contribution on Mings and Pau both starting
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The thats how a squad works comment. But I've moved on.
If i may ask
There's an inability or disregard to focus on the question both by you and by Paul E?
If you don't want to engage in discussion on where your head is at with two left centre backs both playing then perhaps you will start forming more of an opinion when they do or don't play.
I've started a conversation on this, which could turn out to be a hot topic, and I believe it's really useful for people to think about it now if they want to.
I made it simple for people to comprehend, similar to how Watkins, Ings, or Coutinho, and Buendía fit into the team.
Of course, I have foresight, but I recognise and summise that proof and games being played may be required for some before they choose to participate in this conversation seriously
I understand some need evidence before commenting before giving a contribution on Mings and Pau both starting
I engaged in the discussion, you ignored my reply and created a new thread to repeat yourself. The "that's how a squad works" comment was being glib more than anything because I find the 'what will our starting 11 be' style conversations a bit silly when we all know that we need 18-20 'starters' to compete.
I'll repeat myself though.
left footed central defenders have, for years, invariably been played on the left because coaches/managers prefer their stronger foot to be 'outside' because it makes them more likely to shepherd players on the outside. This is a bit outdated now though because so many attacks come from wide players driving in onto their stronger foot which puts them on the CBs 'weak' side. On top of that players with limited passing ability tend to 'open up' on their stronger side and have a fairly narrow 'passing segment' that they're comfortable with, on their 'weak' side that segment tends to be much squarer and results in playing passes across the face of the goal, which was a massive no-no in the past. As technical ability has increased and a focus on retaining possession has come into the game both of those reasons have largely gone as well.
We still see left-footed players on the left more often because that's where youth coaches will have put them because they don't know any better and it just sticks because it's rare for 2 lefties to end up playing together. A few years ago we had Mings and Hause together and the latter, who is a far less gifted footballer than Torres, adapted to playing on the right of the pairing very quickly.
Getting Torres and Mings to play together is as simple as deciding which one will go on the right and then giving them time to get used to playing together. The comparison between this and Watkins/Ings and Coutinho/Buendia is false because the former was a problem because the style to get the best out of Ings and Watkins was different so we could only play in a way that suited one or other and the Buendia/Coutinho thing is mostly a physicality problem, you can't really get away with 2 playmaking midgets in the same team in the premier league, when they did both play we often got out fought in midfield, although Gerrards tactical genius of having 2 of the 3 in behind cover his fullbacks didn't help with that.
Question in return, would you be so vocal if we had to play 2 right/right-footed CBs together?
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This thread reminds me of that Star Trek episode where the man and his anti-matter doppelganger end up trapped and at each other's throats for all eternity in the tunnel between their dimensions!
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I can't ever imagine playing two centre backs with the same preferred foot, it's just beyond imagination, it's never happened before.
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So I summise you have Mings and Pau both starting?
Actually I fantatsic comparison regards the debate of both Watkins and Coutinho and Buendía and Coutinho you just choose to never give acknowledgement my way.
Mings and Pau
The style of play would be different with two left-footed centre backs and would not bring out the best in Mings or Pau because one is out of place.
Furthermore, it's about therefore fitting both players is the same as the debate on forwards and midfielders
This is where my thoughts are, rather than a hypothetical right-footed centre back scenario and I opened a discussion because its a situation and wonder about people's thoughts specifically on both startingon who should be starting under Emery.
Come and debate when you have your evidence, as that is clearly required for you.
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We could have upwards of 50 games this season against teams of varying styles. A squad has never been more important. The correct pairing will be decided upon form, fatigue, injuries, who we are up against etc. I don't think any selection is binary.
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Your vote does not reflect your question.
If you are asking, either, both or neither, then there needs to be a selection of either, both or neither for the vote.
Otherwise its just who out of these two should play...
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Not sure this needs a second thread, TBH.
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And, certainly, if there are two right-footed centre backs, I would have that conversation and see possible cause for concern, especially if they have a weak right foot and are asked to play left. I would then anticipate one guy being benched.
On the Pau and Mings situation well Mings, too, does not have the best ball-playing right foot. He also appears to only play on the left side during his career and because his balance is difficult to maintain on the right he could be falling over at worst . I mean we've seen his poor distribution at times from the left. Its challenging for him to learn a new role. Why increase the risk factor?
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Not sure this needs a second thread, TBH.
No need for comment!
If you don't want to involve yourself then don't.
It is an issue and cause for discussion as both may or not start and people want to think and debate it and will be ongoing this season.
It's a great thread actually
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Your vote does not reflect your question.
If you are asking, either, both or neither, then there needs to be a selection of either, both or neither for the vote.
Otherwise its just who out of these two should play...
I wanted to put both on there as option could the moderators paid or unpaid sort this out as it not allowing me
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Not sure this needs a second thread, TBH.
No need for comment!
If you don't want to involve yourself then don't.
It is an issue and cause for discussion as both may or not start and people want to think and debate it and will be ongoing this season.
It's a great thread actually
Come on now Footy, manners maketh man.
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We could have upwards of 50 games this season against teams of varying styles. A squad has never been more important. The correct pairing will be decided upon form, fatigue, injuries, who we are up against etc. I don't think any selection is binary.
Sure. That's fair.
And if we see if it works or not as a pairing I'm sure you and many will give thoughts to that as a discussion on who should be our left centre back and if they can both play together.
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Not sure this needs a second thread, TBH.
No need for comment!
If you don't want to involve yourself then don't.
It is an issue and cause for discussion as both may or not start and people want to think and debate it and will be ongoing this season.
It's a great thread actually
Come on now Footy, manners maketh man.
Well, I apologise if it came out as abrupt, but people are ignoring the future!
I've merely provided some foresight to a discussion that will take place this season and I wanted others to join in and be interested in what they had to say now and as season progresses. However, very few people are willing to speak up or are likely just waiting to see how the pairing may or may not work.
They are both excellent defenders, so this will be a hot topic
And sorry KevinGage just found it a negative contribution to a thread. Come on I have good intentions for all and the centre back situation well it's up for debate.
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As good as Pau is meant to be i see Konsa and Mings have the shirts at the moment and it is theirs to lose or at the very least until Pau is up to speed with everyone and everything.
This guy was bought for the long haul so no need to rush him
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So I summise you have Mings and Pau both starting?
Actually I fantatsic comparison regards the debate of both Watkins and Coutinho and Buendía and Coutinho you just choose to never give acknowledgement my way.
Mings and Pau
The style of play would be different with two left-footed centre backs and would not bring out the best in Mings or Pau because one is out of place.
Furthermore, it's about therefore fitting both players is the same as the debate on forwards and midfielders
This is where my thoughts are, rather than a hypothetical right-footed centre back scenario and I opened a discussion because its a situation and wonder about people's thoughts specifically on both startingon who should be starting under Emery.
Come and debate when you have your evidence, as that is clearly required for you.
No, I have Unai picking the pair he thinks is right for each particular match to ensure we have 4 players fit, in form and ready to play when needed. Sometimes that will almost certainly be Mings and Torres together.
I explained why the comparisons were bad, you can't just say 'nyuh uh, it's great cause I made it' and expect anyone to treat you seriously.
Explain WHY the style of play would be different if they're a pairing, what will be fundamentally different about our play?
Oh and just to be clear you assuming they can't play together and creating a whole thread to treat us to this 'foresight' is just as hypothetical as me asking about 2 right footed players because there's literally no evidence to support your point.
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Aren't only 10% of people lefthanded? If so, wouldn't the large majority of CB pairings be right footers?
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Aren't only 10% of people lefthanded? If so, wouldn't the large majority of CB pairings be right footers?
Yep, although left-handers/footers are massively over-represented in sport so it's more like 1in5 in sports like football. even still you're spot on, there will be plenty of teams using 2 right footed players week-in, week-out without problems, which is exactly why I asked that question.
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My opinion on things like this is clear.
If Unai thinks so, then it is so.
Unai knows best.
Yep, just like we had to get used to to his way of playing it out from the back, this season I think we’ll have to learn to accept that rotation is not the same as dropping players.
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I think it's a fair question. A regular, steady centre-defensive partnership is what our success last season was built on. Yes, a squad game, European games etc. etc. Doesn't deter from the fact that the manager will likely want his strongest centre-backs starting most league games.
Torres is obviously Emery's man. So it's one from Konsa/Carlos/Mings. You'd expect Mings but two left-footers may put the kibosh on that. And yet he has signed a new deal so you'd imagine Emery wants him to play regularly.
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We all know the need for squad depth, rotation etc, but the truth is most teams will have a lot of consistency to selection at centre back. Look at Van Dijk for Liverpool, Gabriel for Arsenal etc.
There may be rotation in cup games etc, but I think it's reasonable to say we're likely to have a fairly settled first-choice pairing. It stands to reason one of those will be Torres. If so, we lose a huge amount of physicality if he repaces Mings on the left. For me, that makes the most likely partner to be Carlos if he shows up this pre-season or Mings if they can sort out the fact they both prefer the left. I don't think that sort of compromise is ideal when you're spending this much money. So I wonder if we'll mainly see two partnerships, Torres and Carlos or Mings and Konsa.
I'll be honest, taking Mings out of our starting lineup does worry me. We're already a very small team and losing him at set pieces is going to be a hard watch.
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It seems likely that they will give it a go. On paper they are the best 2 center-backs we have - and Carlos is left-footed too.
It would be strange to give the contract to Mings, only for him then to become surplus to requirements via a transfer that's always been on the cards. As others have said - I don't see them rotating it that much. By the end of the window, I think things should be clearer, as currently we have 5 center backs, and 1 fit left back, and 1 fit right back.
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I reckon we need to practice for when the Saudis take over. We could end up with players with only a left foot (the others being chopped off for crimes against football) so getting in early gives us a head start.
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I reckon we need to practice for when the Saudis take over. We could end up with players with only a left foot (the others being chopped off for crimes against football) so getting in early gives us a head start.
It's starting already. The match day tickets next season cost an arm and a leg
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Yes I think they’d go together like bacon and eggs.
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It seems likely that they will give it a go. On paper they are the best 2 center-backs we have - and Carlos is left-footed too.
It would be strange to give the contract to Mings, only for him then to become surplus to requirements via a transfer that's always been on the cards. As others have said - I don't see them rotating it that much. By the end of the window, I think things should be clearer, as currently we have 5 center backs, and 1 fit left back, and 1 fit right back.
Carlos is right footed.
He prefers to play on the left side though...
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I'm simply confused by the fact that Mings gets referred to as Mings, and Konsa as Konsa, but Torres gets referred to as Pau.
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I'm simply confused by the fact that Mings gets referred to as Mings, and Konsa as Konsa, but Torres gets referred to as Pau.
This is coincidental but Torres doesn’t have Torres on his shirt, he has Pau.
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Yes, is the simple answer, but sadly not an option in the vote.
For goodness sake please nobody tell Footy that we have a left-footed winger playing on the right.
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This thread reminds me of that Star Trek episode where the man and his anti-matter doppelganger end up trapped and at each other's throats for all eternity in the tunnel between their dimensions!
I remember that one. It had the brilliant Frank Gorshin (the riddler) in it.You’re right, it didn’t end well.
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Assuming Carlos doesn't Stas out, then that's 2 senior options for each of left and right CB...kind of what a team with European ambitions needs?...
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Footy asked for ‘Both’ to be added to the poll so I have and I also added ‘Other’ as there are other options available.
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I think Konsa and Mings will start the season, unless they get injured in pre season
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I voted other.
Its a squad game when you are fighting at the upper echelons of football, so pick whoever fits best for the game-plan tailored towards the next opposition.
But I have no issues picking two left footed centre backs any more than I do two right footers.
Manchester City & Liverpool have won titles & cups, including Champions League, doing just the exact thing with two right footers, so it can be successful.
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It will depend on form, injuries, suspensions, and rotations. A first choice pairing will emerge - it could be any 2 of the 4 we have, but if we do have a run in Europe, then I doubt any of them will start more than 35 games this season.
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All other things being equal (injuries etc) I think Konsa and Mings will start the season.
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All other things being equal (injuries etc) I think Konsa and Mings will start the season.
Agreed.
And they have earned that right with their play.
(One of those cases that I admit freely that I got it completely wrong...)
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Torres will need to earn the shirt...anything else is disrespectful after the way Mings and Konsa ended the season...
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Footy asked for ‘Both’ to be added to the poll so I have and I also added ‘Other’ as there are other options available.
Thanks for updating.
And it's great Bednarek is not an option
What a few months in football can make
We had Bednarek and now we have Pau Torres.
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Torres will need to earn the shirt...anything else is disrespectful after the way Mings and Konsa ended the season...
I think, or would hope, that Emery will be telling the players what he wants from them in each game and picking the team he thinks will FTF!
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Torres will need to earn the shirt...anything else is disrespectful after the way Mings and Konsa ended the season...
I think, or would hope, that Emery will be telling the players what he wants from them in each game and picking the team he thinks will FTF!
Earn the shirt? He's Emerys man for the love of Maria!
We've seen how ruthless Emery is we brought in a left back named Moreno who was a revelation and was more suited to football.
We moved Ings on after he was captain a week before.
He made Cash and McGinn complie with the coaches and improve to get back in the team and had strong words with Emi Martinez conduct
I think in this game Emery has his ideas and Pau Torres is central to that.
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Very interested to see the line up v Newcastle and over the summer series. I think they may get a half each unless it's a back 3
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Torres will need to earn the shirt...anything else is disrespectful after the way Mings and Konsa ended the season...
I get the point being made but I dont necessarily buy into that line of thinking. I'd want Emery to pick the players that he thinks are the best options regardless of form from last season. If he and his coaching staff believe Torres to be the best CB option then he should start.
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Torres will need to earn the shirt...anything else is disrespectful after the way Mings and Konsa ended the season...
I get the point being made but I dont necessarily buy into that line of thinking. I'd want Emery to pick the players that he thinks are the best options regardless of form from last season. If he and his coaching staff believe Torres to be the best CB option then he should start.
Pau is exceptional. The only issue I would have is the possibly physical side and this is even more lost without Mings
Pau is there to start attacks and carry the ball and make far better use of the ball Mings ever could. Mings is totally left footed but can't play the balls Pau does.
Last season when Mings didn't play in 5 matches we lost all 5.
And we have only beaten a poor Norwich when Mings hasn't been in the team
I'm absolutely fascinated of what is to happen to Mings.
Pau first team starter for me 100% He's Emerys man.
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Interesting part in Emery's press conference where he mentioned playing with 3 centre backs on occasion.
I like that. We need to be versatile enough to play various systems, formations, tactics and not have one set, predictable XI that plays every week.
I noticed this in the transfer thread and decided it would be appropriate to bring it here for the debate of the centre back position. So this news that has come to light of a report that a back three is being considered is really intriguing.
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So they haven't been played together so far as we had Mings and Konsa first half and Carlos and Pau second half vs Newcastle in the summer series.
I wonder if there will be a back 3 at some point in one of the pre season matches
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I think a back 3 is quite likely as we really need both Torres and Mings in the team together. Perhaps this is with a RB/CB. We could do with Carlos being awesome but the jury is out.
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I think a back 3 is quite likely
On what evidence?
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Emery said it was an option for him.
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I think a back 3 is quite likely as we really need both Torres and Mings in the team together. Perhaps this is with a RB/CB. We could do with Carlos being awesome but the jury is out.
R.I.P. in the deathwatch threads, Bamford linked and now this. Just waiting for the fourth horesman now.
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We play a back 3 several times during games. We also play a back 6 too. Yay tactics!
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I think a back 3 is quite likely as we really need both Torres and Mings in the team together. Perhaps this is with a RB/CB. We could do with Carlos being awesome but the jury is out.
R.I.P. in the deathwatch threads, Bamford linked and now this. Just waiting for the fourth horesman now.
Surely the lion facing the wrong way was a foul portent?
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As I've said before I'm not completely against a back 3, what I'm against is a manager deciding to 'give it a go' halfway through the season on the back of 10minutes at the end of a game and a couple of training sessions.
For most managers talk of 3 at the back is the clearest sign going that they're fucked and will be out of a job before long. With a proper manager with the meticulous attention to detail that Emery has I'd be fine with it because you'd know we'd only see it if every single player had been coached on how to play it and proven they could do the job.
As Ads says, we do it during play anyway because, like most top sides, we shift to a 325 (or some variant of that) in attack anyway.
Either way I think a back 4 with a CB in 1 of the fullback spots is more likely than wingbacks.
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So I summise you have Mings and Pau both starting?
Actually I fantatsic comparison regards the debate of both Watkins and Coutinho and Buendía and Coutinho you just choose to never give acknowledgement my way.
Mings and Pau
The style of play would be different with two left-footed centre backs and would not bring out the best in Mings or Pau because one is out of place.
Furthermore, it's about therefore fitting both players is the same as the debate on forwards and midfielders
This is where my thoughts are, rather than a hypothetical right-footed centre back scenario and I opened a discussion because its a situation and wonder about people's thoughts specifically on both startingon who should be starting under Emery.
Come and debate when you have your evidence, as that is clearly required for you.
Fuck it, can’t be arsed.
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It seems likely that they will give it a go. On paper they are the best 2 center-backs we have - and Carlos is left-footed too.
It would be strange to give the contract to Mings, only for him then to become surplus to requirements via a transfer that's always been on the cards. As others have said - I don't see them rotating it that much. By the end of the window, I think things should be clearer, as currently we have 5 center backs, and 1 fit left back, and 1 fit right back.
Carlos is right-footed, but has usually played on the left, impossible as that is to countenance for some.
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I think a back 3 is quite likely
On what evidence?
I don't need any evidence, it's my opinion that we would be best with both Torres and Mings in the team, and perhaps a back 3 is the best way to do this.
But if you need evidence then Emery said we might.
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We've had these issues before trying to shoehorn in a new player with the old guard. eg collymore, Townsend, Ings and Watkins the latest. I'd only go 5 at the back away to man city or at the emirates.
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I think it is a bit of an odd signing when Mings is so important to us generally, but in particular in aerial duals.
Torres stats on the ball are superb, defensively notsomuch and in the air downright poor. Konsa's stats are also pretty poor for aerial duals, but this may be partly because Mings always takes the main responsibility for defending the 6 yard box at set pieces. Even so, Torres and Konsa would have teams licking their lips at every set piece.
I don't see them compromising Torres, so he'll start on the left. He really needs to be next to a big bastard. I'm not yet convinced Carlos can be that man. Unless he really steps up I don't see much alternative to hoping Mings can play on the right, or failing that a dreaded back 3, but for me we lose too much further up the field if we play that way.
As much as Torres is an exciting signing, breaking your transfer record as a direct replacement for possibly our most important player was a strange decision. Seeing how we set up will be very interesting that's for sure.
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We've had these issues before trying to shoehorn in a new player with the old guard. eg collymore, Townsend, Ings and Watkins the latest. I'd only go 5 at the back away to man city or at the emirates.
Not 5 at the back. 3 (three) at the back.
2 less.
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I think it is a bit of an odd signing when Mings is so important to us generally, but in particular in aerial duals.
Torres stats on the ball are superb, defensively notsomuch and in the air downright poor. Konsa's stats are also pretty poor for aerial duals, but this may be partly because Mings always takes the main responsibility for defending the 6 yard box at set pieces. Even so, Torres and Konsa would have teams licking their lips at every set piece.
I don't see them compromising Torres, so he'll start on the left. He really needs to be next to a big bastard. I'm not yet convinced Carlos can be that man. Unless he really steps up I don't see much alternative to hoping Mings can play on the right, or failing that a dreaded back 3, but for me we lose too much further up the field if we play that way.
As much as Torres is an exciting signing, breaking your transfer record as a direct replacement for possibly our most important player was a strange decision. Seeing how we set up will be very interesting that's for sure.
This is along the lines I was thinking.
My conclusion is Torres will start ahead of Mings. Acknowledging how good Mings was last season, seems Torres is exactly the kind of player Emery wants.for his preferred style of play, and we paid a lot to get him.
We will be creating a new problem with this, specifically we will be very weak at set pieces.
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if we're on for at least a 50 game season, then we will need both these players.
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There's no way we've signed a player like Torres, whose so good at feeding balls through the lines, and signing a player like Diaby to compliment Ollie and JJ, who are both so good at exploding beyond into space, to not play him. We're also not going to sacrifice Mings organisational and physical ability either, or recovery pace given the defensive line we play.
While people are correct to identify the volume of games we'll play and that there will be some chopping and changing, Torres and Mings will be the starting pair come the end of the season.
Emery absolutely will not play 3 at the back, as it defeats the way we defend and exploit space. 442, but flexible to create box overloads high up the pitch or a flooded, tight back line. It's great to watch.
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I think a back 3 is quite likely as we really need both Torres and Mings in the team together. Perhaps this is with a RB/CB. We could do with Carlos being awesome but the jury is out.
R.I.P. in the deathwatch threads, Bamford linked and now this. Just waiting for the fourth horesman now.
Once somebody explains why Barry didn't take the penalty, this site will just disappear.
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The fact they are both left footers while not ideal is not that important as they are both accomplished players. Pau, with the ball but not that great in the air, Mings, great in the air but less good than Pau with his feet. It's an upgrade on Konsa and Mings. All three will figure highly throughout the season I'm sure.
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I think there will be some.very unhappy defenders and midfielders at the club if we keep Olsen and crash out of Europe and the domestic cups early and players struggle for minutes on the pitch
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There's no way we've signed a player like Torres, whose so good at feeding balls through the lines, and signing a player like Diaby to compliment Ollie and JJ, who are both so good at exploding beyond into space, to not play him. We're also not going to sacrifice Mings organisational and physical ability either, or recovery pace given the defensive line we play.
While people are correct to identify the volume of games we'll play and that there will be some chopping and changing, Torres and Mings will be the starting pair come the end of the season.
Emery absolutely will not play 3 at the back, as it defeats the way we defend and exploit space. 442, but flexible to create box overloads high up the pitch or a flooded, tight back line. It's great to watch.
I make you right of course but I can see Konsa playing at right back as well in a lopsided 3 and a half at the back. I think this is his big plan with Torres, and why we're not going mad big money full back.
Fuck knows how it will work but it will.
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Playing McGinn wide right and Ramsey left in a 4-4-2 shouldn't have worked, but it did. I don't think having two left footed centre backs is going to give Unai too many sleepless nights, it doesn't mean that they can only kick the ball in one direction.
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Playing McGinn wide right and Ramsey left in a 4-4-2 shouldn't have worked, but it did. I don't think having two left footed centre backs is going to give Unai too many sleepless nights, it doesn't mean that they can only kick the ball in one direction.
We could play Carlos on the left and Torres on the right!
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Emery: "We are trying to practice on different tactical ways and one is to play with Konsa as well as a right-back and to build up with three at the back."
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Emery: "We are trying to practice on different tactical ways and one is to play with Konsa as well as a right-back and to build up with three at the back."
There's no way we've signed a player like Torres, whose so good at feeding balls through the lines, and signing a player like Diaby to compliment Ollie and JJ, who are both so good at exploding beyond into space, to not play him. We're also not going to sacrifice Mings organisational and physical ability either, or recovery pace given the defensive line we play.
While people are correct to identify the volume of games we'll play and that there will be some chopping and changing, Torres and Mings will be the starting pair come the end of the season.
Emery absolutely will not play 3 at the back, as it defeats the way we defend and exploit space. 442, but flexible to create box overloads high up the pitch or a flooded, tight back line. It's great to watch.
I make you right of course but I can see Konsa playing at right back as well in a lopsided 3 and a half at the back. I think this is his big plan with Torres, and why we're not going mad big money full back.
Fuck knows how it will work but it will.
See Footy, that's fucking 'insight'.
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Konsa at RB might work - in Emery we trust and all that.
Certainly he is not great at CB when defending a high ball over the top and much better when faced-up 1v1 with a player.
Though he can also be suspect to a ball on the ground played in behind him, and that will still happen if he is at RB.
Obviously his ability to progress with the ball is limited, though if the other three in the back four are Moreno, Torres, and Mings, the plan will be that it's not his job - as it is, at CB he (typically) only ever plays a short pass sidewards to Mings or backwards to Martinez.
Maybe it is an option against teams with a greater attacking threat as he offers more defensively than Cash. UTV
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I think there will be some.very unhappy defenders and midfielders at the club if we keep Olsen and crash out of Europe and the domestic cups early and players struggle for minutes on the pitch
Honestly, you're my favourite member of this website. Bring a smile to my face with every post
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I think there will be some.very unhappy defenders and midfielders at the club if we keep Olsen and crash out of Europe and the domestic cups early and players struggle for minutes on the pitch
Nothing like a good bit of preseason optimism then!
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Emery: "We are trying to practice on different tactical ways and one is to play with Konsa as well as a right-back and to build up with three at the back."
There's no way we've signed a player like Torres, whose so good at feeding balls through the lines, and signing a player like Diaby to compliment Ollie and JJ, who are both so good at exploding beyond into space, to not play him. We're also not going to sacrifice Mings organisational and physical ability either, or recovery pace given the defensive line we play.
While people are correct to identify the volume of games we'll play and that there will be some chopping and changing, Torres and Mings will be the starting pair come the end of the season.
Emery absolutely will not play 3 at the back, as it defeats the way we defend and exploit space. 442, but flexible to create box overloads high up the pitch or a flooded, tight back line. It's great to watch.
I make you right of course but I can see Konsa playing at right back as well in a lopsided 3 and a half at the back. I think this is his big plan with Torres, and why we're not going mad big money full back.
Fuck knows how it will work but it will.
See Footy, that's fucking There's no way we've signed a player like Torres, whose so good at feeding balls through the lines, and signing a player like Diaby to compliment Ollie and JJ, who are both so good at exploding beyond into space, to not play him. We're also not going to sacrifice Mings organisational and physical ability either, or recovery pace given the defensive line we play.
While people are correct to identify the volume of games we'll play and that there will be some chopping and changing, Torres and Mings will be the starting pair come the end of the season.
Emery absolutely will not play 3 at the back, as it defeats the way we defend and exploit space. 442, but flexible to create box overloads high up the pitch or a flooded, tight back line. It's great to watch.
I make you right of course but I can see Konsa playing at right back as well in a lopsided 3 and a half at the back. I think this is his big plan with Torres, and why we're not going mad big money full back.
Fuck knows how it will work but it will.
I agree, he doesn’t really favour an out and out 3 at the back, instead creating room for full backs (usually on the left) to push on with one of the two more defensive midfielders dropping in to form the four.
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Lots to work on in central defence, because it didn't seem to gel that much in either half. The injury to Konsa is a worry, we could do without that. Didn't think much of Carlos at all first half to be honest, but then Mings looked out of sorts second half as well.
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Think we need to stick with Konsa/Mings to start the season anyway.
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A conventional back 4 allows you the flexibility to move to a 3/5/6 as and when and retain the necessary shape we have in the middle for springing attacks. Which we have seen a plenty last season and will this.
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Think we need to stick with Konsa/Mings to start the season anyway.
Konsa went off seemingly holding his hamstring, so I think he might be a doubt now.
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Konsa looked like cramp to me, I reckon he'll be fine.
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Didn't look like that to me. He went in on quite hard on Vinicius and seemed to hurt himself as a result.
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Didn't look like that to me. He went in on quite hard on Vinicius and seemed to hurt himself as a result.
After which he got up without any issue (and shit-talked Vinicius briefly) before feeling something a little while after and then he sat and was clearly trying to stretch his hamstring.
We'll see I guess but in those conditions I expected to see players going down with cramp.
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Was that Vinicius Senior?
Can't wait til we have three Ramseys in the side. Big Brother, Middle Child and Boy Wonder.
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Was that Vinicius Senior?
Can't wait til we have three Ramseys in the side. Big Brother, Middle Child and Boy Wonder.
That Vicinius is absolutely shite, unlike his namesake at Madrid.
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So Pau started ahead of Mings and Mings replaced Pau.
Interesting developments so far meaning they haven't played together.
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So Pau started ahead of Mings and Mings replaced Pau.
Interesting developments so far meaning they haven't played together.
Two games.
Two...
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So Pau started ahead of Mings and Mings replaced Pau.
Interesting developments so far meaning they haven't played together.
Two games.
Two...
Yes in two games they could have started or played together.
Build the partnership which some think is the case and voted with yet evidence suggests its Pau or Mings.
It's fascinating how it will all turn out.
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Are you setting yourself up for some cookies?
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So Pau started ahead of Mings and Mings replaced Pau.
Interesting developments so far meaning they haven't played together.
Two games.
Two...
Yes in two games they could have started or played together.
Build the partnership which some think is the case and voted with yet evidence suggests its Pau or Mings.
It's fascinating how it will all turn out.
and now they're starting the 3rd game together.
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So Pau started ahead of Mings and Mings replaced Pau.
Interesting developments so far meaning they haven't played together.
Two games.
Two...
Yes in two games they could have started or played together.
Build the partnership which some think is the case and voted with yet evidence suggests its Pau or Mings.
It's fascinating how it will all turn out.
and now they're starting the 3rd game together.
But not conventionally. I can't imagine we've spent £40m for Torres to play fullback.
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So Pau started ahead of Mings and Mings replaced Pau.
Interesting developments so far meaning they haven't played together.
Two games.
Two...
Yes in two games they could have started or played together.
Build the partnership which some think is the case and voted with yet evidence suggests its Pau or Mings.
It's fascinating how it will all turn out.
and now they're starting the 3rd game together.
But not conventionally. I can't imagine we've spent £40m for Torres to play fullback.
Indeed, but they both started and there was a clear plan as to why we did it which shows that Emery doesn't see them as an 'either/or' choice in a single position.
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So Pau started ahead of Mings and Mings replaced Pau.
Interesting developments so far meaning they haven't played together.
Two games.
Two...
Yes in two games they could have started or played together.
Build the partnership which some think is the case and voted with yet evidence suggests its Pau or Mings.
It's fascinating how it will all turn out.
and now they're starting the 3rd game together.
But not conventionally. I can't imagine we've spent £40m for Torres to play fullback.
I hope not too.
If anybody has to play out there, then it should be Mings because he has played there before in his career.
Although maybe he is keeping Mings in the middle for his aerial prowess...
I suppose time will tell.
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I hope not too.
If anybody has to play out there, then it should be Mings because he has played there before in his career.
Although maybe he is keeping Mings in the middle for his aerial prowess...
I suppose time will tell.
You can't play Torres and Konsa as a pair against most teams so Mings at LB would probably mean Carlos in as well.
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Mings at left back would be a huge mistake. Both Moreno and Digne are far more suited to getting forward and putting balls in to the danger areas.
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Think the most likely scenario is Mings becoming a right sided centre back.
I do remember John Terry not being able to manage playing there for England, but trying to change position in international football after a few sessions, is not the same as working on it all week every week at club level.
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Don't get me wrong, Im not of any of Torres or Mings playing out there, but if Emery does choose to do it, then maybe Cash - Carlos - Torres - Mings is the best option?
Not ideal by any stretch, I just didn't like Torres out there yesterday.
He looked very uncomfortable
Having said that, it was only 60 minutes & one has to remember that the very steady pairing of Mings & Konsa started a bit shaky as they got used to Emerys system last season...
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It does feel like we are trying to bend gravity a bit to fit them all in the team and get this lop-sided defence sorted out.
Emery needs to make sure it doesn’t become like signing collymore and shifting Yorke into midfield i.e. the end of his Midas touch.
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It does feel like we are trying to bend gravity a bit to fit them all in the team and get this lop-sided defence sorted out.
Emery needs to make sure it doesn’t become like signing collymore and shifting Yorke into midfield i.e. the end of his Midas touch.
I thought that at first, but I don't think it will be his first choice line up. Might be handy at times if we're 2-0 up and want to take the pace out of the game.
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I'm going to shoot* the next person that says left footed centre half can't play right centre half and vice versa.
Football managed about 150 years before it was ever mentioned.
*metaphorically
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It does feel like we are trying to bend gravity a bit to fit them all in the team and get this lop-sided defence sorted out.
Emery needs to make sure it doesn’t become like signing collymore and shifting Yorke into midfield i.e. the end of his Midas touch.
I thought that at first, but I don't think it will be his first choice line up. Might be handy at times if we're 2-0 up and want to take the pace out of the game.
Conversely if Konsa takes to the RB position it could mean we can really over-load the midfield when in possession so the risk v rewards might be worth it.
As you say, as an option it should be okay. I just hope Emery sees it that way too as any momentum can be quickly lost.
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I thi k Emery is so good at preparing ona game by game basis that these games are really testing his players' adaptability rather than systems.
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I thi k Emery is so good at preparing ona game by game basis that these games are really testing his players' adaptability rather than systems.
My thoughts as well. He might try something different up front against Lazio, which is the only area he hasn't really done similar with yet.
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I'm going to shoot* the next person that says left footed centre half can't play right centre half and vice versa.
Football managed about 150 years before it was ever mentioned.
*metaphorically
The fact a player can play there in theory doesn't mean they can do so as effectively as the side they have played all their career on and are more comfortable on. Mings may adapt well to the right, he may not. I'm sure we'll find out.
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I am sure Pau can play left or right at CB but from evidence yesterday I wouldn't trust him at left back.
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I'm going to shoot* the next person that says left footed centre half can't play right centre half and vice versa.
Football managed about 150 years before it was ever mentioned.
*metaphorically
The fact a player can play there in theory doesn't mean they can do so as effectively as the side they have played all their career on and are more comfortable on. Mings may adapt well to the right, he may not. I'm sure we'll find out.
the problem, for me as a lefty, is the idea that footedness has any impact on that.
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I think the left back thing was probably just a trial run in the event of an injury to Digne before Moreno is back rather than some tactical masterplan from Emery. Possibly also to reduce Dignes minutes given how important he will be to us for the first few weeks.
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I think the left back thing was probably just a trial run in the event of an injury to Digne before Moreno is back rather than some tactical masterplan from Emery. Possibly also to reduce Dignes minutes given how important he will be to us for the first few weeks.
I reckon it was also to have a look at the flipped shape from what we did last year.
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I haven't seen all the friendlies, but am I right in thinking that Mings and Torres haven't played together yet as a conventional centre back pairing?
Yes that's the case it's fascinating discussion on who will be chosen.
I've since had a look at the line up for the win against Lazio and see Pau was chosen ahead of Mings.
Something I suspected and solves the mystery of how he was to fit them both in a back line of two centre-backs
Seems in order to include both Pau and Mings, it appears that Emery will have a back 3 with a right back pressing forward which would be Matty Cash.
When Mings or Pau don't play then it's maybe Digne or Moreno pushing forward and Konsa or Chambers at right back and Carlos or Konsa right centre back with Pau or Mings at left centre back.
There is no Mings and Pau on right side of defence.
Neither play there and the evidence shows that Emery is not looking to deploy a left centre back at right sided. As I suspected all along.
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Cookies for everyone!!!
🍪🍪🍪🍪🍪
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I’d be starting Cash - Konsa - Mings - Digne against Newcastle.
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Agreed Risso, they showed tonight how comfortable they all are together.
For me it’s up to Pau and Carlos to force their way in.
We need another RB as Chambers and certainly not Ezri are the answer if Cash isn’t fit
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I’d be starting Cash - Konsa - Mings - Digne against Newcastle.
100%
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I’d be starting Cash - Konsa - Mings - Digne against Newcastle.
100%
I agree
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I’d be starting Cash - Konsa - Mings - Digne against Newcastle.
100%
I agree
All look great. Nobody even close to pushing them for a start.
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I’d be starting Cash - Konsa - Mings - Digne against Newcastle.
100%
I agree
All look great. Nobody even close to pushing them for a start.
100% - tricky first match, lets not risk it
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Torres, hasnt come here to play left back - Im sure ill be fitted in somehow soon, but possibly not as a left back, or at least not in the formation we had today
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Torres, hasnt come here to play left back - Im sure ill be fitted in somehow soon, but possibly not as a left back, or at least not in the formation we had today
Torres is not a left back - if the idea to sign him was due to his passing from defence into midfield, then he would be wasted at left back
A kind of inverted left back role for Pau though is happening. Emery version of it and his vision for having Torres and Mings in the team together.
And what is an inverted full back?
https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/inverted-full-backs-guardiola-cancelo-trent-alexander-arnold-lahm-football-tactics/
To help make sense of it all and the Mings and Pau question.
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The common attacking shape amongst the top sides now is 325, with a wide back 3 that is closer to 1CB and 2FBs than the more traditional 3 CBs. The 2 are then a double pivot but generally 1 is a more defensive option who will stay quite deep and be the 4th defender against the counter-attack whilst the other steps up and dictates play and sets the ponit and tempo of the attack.
Luiz works perfectly in that 2nd role because he's fantastic at both being the quarterback and changing the point of the attack but also at drifting into space around the box and timing runs to break in and get chances on goal. Tielemans works in both positions so long as we're dominating possession and Kamara is exceptional at the more defensive role, I can see us playing every combination of 2 from 3 fairly regularly.
For the 5 I think we set up in a few different ways last year but the 2 most common were:
Starting in a 442 Where Moreno pushed up and Cash/Young joined the 3, JJ and McGinn moved in from the wings to fill the gaps between FB and CB (half-space is the common term for this amongst the tactical nerds) and Bailey drifted out wide on the right.
or
Starting in more of a 451 Where McGinn was in the 2 and Bailey played on the right, in this the big difference was Buendia drifted into the right side half-space from a more central position.
When Digne played we mixed it up during the game a bit more because we sometimes pushed him up and other times we pushed Cash up but neither of them really worked.
In pre-season I think Emery has worked hard on getting Cash to be more productive if he pushes into that and to encourage it he's been using Torres on the left to remove any doubt of who would be the more attacking full back. Diaby also plays a big part because he can fill 4 of the 5 spots at any point so we're a lot more fluid in our shape.
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The common attacking shape amongst the top sides now is 325, with a wide back 3 that is closer to 1CB and 2FBs than the more traditional 3 CBs. The 2 are then a double pivot but generally 1 is a more defensive option who will stay quite deep and be the 4th defender against the counter-attack whilst the other steps up and dictates play and sets the ponit and tempo of the attack.
Luiz works perfectly in that 2nd role because he's fantastic at both being the quarterback and changing the point of the attack but also at drifting into space around the box and timing runs to break in and get chances on goal. Tielemans works in both positions so long as we're dominating possession and Kamara is exceptional at the more defensive role, I can see us playing every combination of 2 from 3 fairly regularly.
For the 5 I think we set up in a few different ways last year but the 2 most common were:
Starting in a 442 Where Moreno pushed up and Cash/Young joined the 3, JJ and McGinn moved in from the wings to fill the gaps between FB and CB (half-space is the common term for this amongst the tactical nerds) and Bailey drifted out wide on the right.
or
Starting in more of a 451 Where McGinn was in the 2 and Bailey played on the right, in this the big difference was Buendia drifted into the right side half-space from a more central position.
When Digne played we mixed it up during the game a bit more because we sometimes pushed him up and other times we pushed Cash up but neither of them really worked.
In pre-season I think Emery has worked hard on getting Cash to be more productive if he pushes into that and to encourage it he's been using Torres on the left to remove any doubt of who would be the more attacking full back. Diaby also plays a big part because he can fill 4 of the 5 spots at any point so we're a lot more fluid in our shape.
Are you an optician Paul?
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The common attacking shape amongst the top sides now is 325, with a wide back 3 that is closer to 1CB and 2FBs than the more traditional 3 CBs. The 2 are then a double pivot but generally 1 is a more defensive option who will stay quite deep and be the 4th defender against the counter-attack whilst the other steps up and dictates play and sets the ponit and tempo of the attack.
Luiz works perfectly in that 2nd role because he's fantastic at both being the quarterback and changing the point of the attack but also at drifting into space around the box and timing runs to break in and get chances on goal. Tielemans works in both positions so long as we're dominating possession and Kamara is exceptional at the more defensive role, I can see us playing every combination of 2 from 3 fairly regularly.
For the 5 I think we set up in a few different ways last year but the 2 most common were:
Starting in a 442 Where Moreno pushed up and Cash/Young joined the 3, JJ and McGinn moved in from the wings to fill the gaps between FB and CB (half-space is the common term for this amongst the tactical nerds) and Bailey drifted out wide on the right.
or
Starting in more of a 451 Where McGinn was in the 2 and Bailey played on the right, in this the big difference was Buendia drifted into the right side half-space from a more central position.
When Digne played we mixed it up during the game a bit more because we sometimes pushed him up and other times we pushed Cash up but neither of them really worked.
In pre-season I think Emery has worked hard on getting Cash to be more productive if he pushes into that and to encourage it he's been using Torres on the left to remove any doubt of who would be the more attacking full back. Diaby also plays a big part because he can fill 4 of the 5 spots at any point so we're a lot more fluid in our shape.
Are you an optician Paul?
No idea what happened there, sometimes the editor does weird things if you cut and paste I think.
-
The common attacking shape amongst the top sides now is 325, with a wide back 3 that is closer to 1CB and 2FBs than the more traditional 3 CBs. The 2 are then a double pivot but generally 1 is a more defensive option who will stay quite deep and be the 4th defender against the counter-attack whilst the other steps up and dictates play and sets the ponit and tempo of the attack.
Luiz works perfectly in that 2nd role because he's fantastic at both being the quarterback and changing the point of the attack but also at drifting into space around the box and timing runs to break in and get chances on goal. Tielemans works in both positions so long as we're dominating possession and Kamara is exceptional at the more defensive role, I can see us playing every combination of 2 from 3 fairly regularly.
For the 5 I think we set up in a few different ways last year but the 2 most common were:
Starting in a 442 Where Moreno pushed up and Cash/Young joined the 3, JJ and McGinn moved in from the wings to fill the gaps between FB and CB (half-space is the common term for this amongst the tactical nerds) and Bailey drifted out wide on the right.
or
Starting in more of a 451 Where McGinn was in the 2 and Bailey played on the right, in this the big difference was Buendia drifted into the right side half-space from a more central position.
When Digne played we mixed it up during the game a bit more because we sometimes pushed him up and other times we pushed Cash up but neither of them really worked.
In pre-season I think Emery has worked hard on getting Cash to be more productive if he pushes into that and to encourage it he's been using Torres on the left to remove any doubt of who would be the more attacking full back. Diaby also plays a big part because he can fill 4 of the 5 spots at any point so we're a lot more fluid in our shape.
Are you an optician Paul?
No idea what happened there, sometimes the editor does weird things if you cut and paste I think.
In full site mode, select text then click on the "remove formatting button" (the one with two letter A's on it).
-
The common attacking shape amongst the top sides now is 325, with a wide back 3 that is closer to 1CB and 2FBs than the more traditional 3 CBs. The 2 are then a double pivot but generally 1 is a more defensive option who will stay quite deep and be the 4th defender against the counter-attack whilst the other steps up and dictates play and sets the ponit and tempo of the attack.
Luiz works perfectly in that 2nd role because he's fantastic at both being the quarterback and changing the point of the attack but also at drifting into space around the box and timing runs to break in and get chances on goal. Tielemans works in both positions so long as we're dominating possession and Kamara is exceptional at the more defensive role, I can see us playing every combination of 2 from 3 fairly regularly.
For the 5 I think we set up in a few different ways last year but the 2 most common were:
Starting in a 442 Where Moreno pushed up and Cash/Young joined the 3, JJ and McGinn moved in from the wings to fill the gaps between FB and CB (half-space is the common term for this amongst the tactical nerds) and Bailey drifted out wide on the right.
or
Starting in more of a 451 Where McGinn was in the 2 and Bailey played on the right, in this the big difference was Buendia drifted into the right side half-space from a more central position.
When Digne played we mixed it up during the game a bit more because we sometimes pushed him up and other times we pushed Cash up but neither of them really worked.
In pre-season I think Emery has worked hard on getting Cash to be more productive if he pushes into that and to encourage it he's been using Torres on the left to remove any doubt of who would be the more attacking full back. Diaby also plays a big part because he can fill 4 of the 5 spots at any point so we're a lot more fluid in our shape.
Are you an optician Paul?
No idea what happened there, sometimes the editor does weird things if you cut and paste I think.
Ha ha no worries though it has reminded me
I need a Contact Lens check up.
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The common attacking shape amongst the top sides now is 325, with a wide back 3 that is closer to 1CB and 2FBs than the more traditional 3 CBs. The 2 are then a double pivot but generally 1 is a more defensive option who will stay quite deep and be the 4th defender against the counter-attack whilst the other steps up and dictates play and sets the ponit and tempo of the attack.
Luiz works perfectly in that 2nd role because he's fantastic at both being the quarterback and changing the point of the attack but also at drifting into space around the box and timing runs to break in and get chances on goal. Tielemans works in both positions so long as we're dominating possession and Kamara is exceptional at the more defensive role, I can see us playing every combination of 2 from 3 fairly regularly.
For the 5 I think we set up in a few different ways last year but the 2 most common were:
Starting in a 442 Where Moreno pushed up and Cash/Young joined the 3, JJ and McGinn moved in from the wings to fill the gaps between FB and CB (half-space is the common term for this amongst the tactical nerds) and Bailey drifted out wide on the right.
or
Starting in more of a 451 Where McGinn was in the 2 and Bailey played on the right, in this the big difference was Buendia drifted into the right side half-space from a more central position.
When Digne played we mixed it up during the game a bit more because we sometimes pushed him up and other times we pushed Cash up but neither of them really worked.
In pre-season I think Emery has worked hard on getting Cash to be more productive if he pushes into that and to encourage it he's been using Torres on the left to remove any doubt of who would be the more attacking full back. Diaby also plays a big part because he can fill 4 of the 5 spots at any point so we're a lot more fluid in our shape.
Are you an optician Paul?
No idea what happened there, sometimes the editor does weird things if you cut and paste I think.
In full site mode, select text then click on the "remove formatting button" (the one with two letter A's on it).
I know, I normally check but I forgot today.
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Torres isn't ready for the blood & Thunder of the EPL just yet.
Be a huge risk starting him on Saturday
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The common attacking shape amongst the top sides now is 325, with a wide back 3 that is closer to 1CB and 2FBs than the more traditional 3 CBs. The 2 are then a double pivot but generally 1 is a more defensive option who will stay quite deep and be the 4th defender against the counter-attack whilst the other steps up and dictates play and sets the ponit and tempo of the attack.
Luiz works perfectly in that 2nd role because he's fantastic at both being the quarterback and changing the point of the attack but also at drifting into space around the box and timing runs to break in and get chances on goal. Tielemans works in both positions so long as we're dominating possession and Kamara is exceptional at the more defensive role, I can see us playing every combination of 2 from 3 fairly regularly.
For the 5 I think we set up in a few different ways last year but the 2 most common were:
Starting in a 442 Where Moreno pushed up and Cash/Young joined the 3, JJ and McGinn moved in from the wings to fill the gaps between FB and CB (half-space is the common term for this amongst the tactical nerds) and Bailey drifted out wide on the right.
or
Starting in more of a 451 Where McGinn was in the 2 and Bailey played on the right, in this the big difference was Buendia drifted into the right side half-space from a more central position.
When Digne played we mixed it up during the game a bit more because we sometimes pushed him up and other times we pushed Cash up but neither of them really worked.
In pre-season I think Emery has worked hard on getting Cash to be more productive if he pushes into that and to encourage it he's been using Torres on the left to remove any doubt of who would be the more attacking full back. Diaby also plays a big part because he can fill 4 of the 5 spots at any point so we're a lot more fluid in our shape.
Are you an optician Paul?
No idea what happened there, sometimes the editor does weird things if you cut and paste I think.
In full site mode, select text then click on the "remove formatting button" (the one with two letter A's on it).
I know, I normally check but I forgot today.
Yeah! Don't mention it! You're alright. It was nothing. Maybe next time don't forget so I don't waste my time trying to be helpful.
-
The common attacking shape amongst the top sides now is 325, with a wide back 3 that is closer to 1CB and 2FBs than the more traditional 3 CBs. The 2 are then a double pivot but generally 1 is a more defensive option who will stay quite deep and be the 4th defender against the counter-attack whilst the other steps up and dictates play and sets the ponit and tempo of the attack.
Luiz works perfectly in that 2nd role because he's fantastic at both being the quarterback and changing the point of the attack but also at drifting into space around the box and timing runs to break in and get chances on goal. Tielemans works in both positions so long as we're dominating possession and Kamara is exceptional at the more defensive role, I can see us playing every combination of 2 from 3 fairly regularly.
For the 5 I think we set up in a few different ways last year but the 2 most common were:
Starting in a 442 Where Moreno pushed up and Cash/Young joined the 3, JJ and McGinn moved in from the wings to fill the gaps between FB and CB (half-space is the common term for this amongst the tactical nerds) and Bailey drifted out wide on the right.
or
Starting in more of a 451 Where McGinn was in the 2 and Bailey played on the right, in this the big difference was Buendia drifted into the right side half-space from a more central position.
When Digne played we mixed it up during the game a bit more because we sometimes pushed him up and other times we pushed Cash up but neither of them really worked.
In pre-season I think Emery has worked hard on getting Cash to be more productive if he pushes into that and to encourage it he's been using Torres on the left to remove any doubt of who would be the more attacking full back. Diaby also plays a big part because he can fill 4 of the 5 spots at any point so we're a lot more fluid in our shape.
Are you an optician Paul?
No idea what happened there, sometimes the editor does weird things if you cut and paste I think.
In full site mode, select text then click on the "remove formatting button" (the one with two letter A's on it).
I know, I normally check but I forgot today.
Yeah! Don't mention it! You're alright. It was nothing. Maybe next time don't forget so I don't waste my time trying to be helpful.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like a knob and thank you for offering a solution.
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Put both, not because I think they should automatically be first choice, but because they absolutely can play together.
People seem to suffer logic deficiency whenever left-footers are involved. Why can right-footed players step in at left back or the left side of central defence, but as soon as a leftie's proposed for it it becomes all sinister?
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Put both, not because I think they should automatically be first choice, but because they absolutely can play together.
People seem to suffer logic deficiency whenever left-footers are involved. Why can right-footed players step in at left back or the left side of central defence, but as soon as a leftie's proposed for it it becomes all sinister?
Yep, exactly, this has been my point all along against this thread.
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Put both, not because I think they should automatically be first choice, but because they absolutely can play together.
People seem to suffer logic deficiency whenever left-footers are involved. Why can right-footed players step in at left back or the left side of central defence, but as soon as a leftie's proposed for it it becomes all sinister?
Yep, exactly, this has been my point all along against this thread.
Well they haven't played once together as a centre back partnership in pre-season, so maybe Emery isn't convinced yet?
I'd guess Torres will play left back at Newcastle, but if not he has to be on the bench surely?
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Put both, not because I think they should automatically be first choice, but because they absolutely can play together.
People seem to suffer logic deficiency whenever left-footers are involved. Why can right-footed players step in at left back or the left side of central defence, but as soon as a leftie's proposed for it it becomes all sinister?
Yep, exactly, this has been my point all along against this thread.
Well they haven't played once together as a centre back partnership in pre-season, so maybe Emery isn't convinced yet?
I'd guess Torres will play left back at Newcastle, but if not he has to be on the bench surely?
A fair point if the thread specified playing together as 'classic' centre backs, which it doesn't.
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Put both, not because I think they should automatically be first choice, but because they absolutely can play together.
People seem to suffer logic deficiency whenever left-footers are involved. Why can right-footed players step in at left back or the left side of central defence, but as soon as a leftie's proposed for it it becomes all sinister?
Tyrone Mings is completely one sided. He won't be able to play RCB, opposition presses him onto his right foot on the ball and we are in for a world of pain. In any case, Konsa and Mings should be (and will be) first choice to start the season. Let's see how Torres does when he gets opportunities but I think he will find it difficult to break in.
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Put both, not because I think they should automatically be first choice, but because they absolutely can play together.
People seem to suffer logic deficiency whenever left-footers are involved. Why can right-footed players step in at left back or the left side of central defence, but as soon as a leftie's proposed for it it becomes all sinister?
Yep, exactly, this has been my point all along against this thread.
Well they haven't played once together as a centre back partnership in pre-season, so maybe Emery isn't convinced yet?
I'd guess Torres will play left back at Newcastle, but if not he has to be on the bench surely?
A fair point if the thread specified playing together as 'classic' centre backs, which it doesn't.
But the thrust of Monty's post and your reply is clearly that one of them should be able to play on the right even though they are left footed, not that one of them should play left back.
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It's just a matter of time before we go three at the back. Torres on the left, Mings in the middle and Konsa on the right. Unai will at some point need to justify the purchase of Torres and his best position is on the left. To move him to the right would take so much away from his strengths. As Bronte said, Mings as a two can only play on the left. He can play in the middle of a three though.
Once we get Moreno back I think we'll look a lot more fluid. Cash on the right overlapping also works but he'll need to work on his crossing. I still expect us to bring in another right back. It will be interesting to see the characteristics of the player when we do. My guess is he'll be more of a wing back.
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It's just a matter of time before we go three at the back. Torres on the left, Mings in the middle and Konsa on the right. Unai will at some point need to justify the purchase of Torres and his best position is on the left. To move him to the right would take so much away from his strengths. As Bronte said, Mings as a two can only play on the left. He can play in the middle of a three though.
Once we get Moreno back I think we'll look a lot more fluid. Cash on the right overlapping also works but he'll need to work on his crossing. I still expect us to bring in another right back. It will be interesting to see the characteristics of the player when we do. My guess is he'll be more of a wing back.
When Mings played in the centre of a three a few seasons back, he was awful. It's not just that he isn't comfortable with the ball at his right foot, he isn't comfortable even turning onto his right side. From memory, Konsa was all over the place in a 3 as a RCB and dreadful at RB. I just hope we don't spend weeks messing around with our shape at the back to accommodate Torres.
Towards the end of last season, Emery had nailed out defensive setup with Konsa and Mings playing high with Martinez sweeping behind them, Moreno bombing on. Kamara and Luiz goal side of the ball sitting in front with Luiz given more licence to get forward at times. Swap individuals out for sure but let's keep that shape.
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I don’t think we’ll go three at the back long term because with time it will prove it doesn’t work with the players we have
What we also have to remember is we all think the defence is rocksolid especially with the amount of clean sheets we kept last season
But Emi Martínez made the second most saves in the premiership
We kept a lot of clean sheets because of the goalkeeper not the defence
A different goalkeeper and we Would have finished bottom half
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I don’t think we’ll go three at the back long term because with time it will prove it doesn’t work with the players we have
What we also have to remember is we all think the defence is rocksolid especially with the amount of clean sheets we kept last season
But Emi Martínez made the second most saves in the premiership
We kept a lot of clean sheets because of the goalkeeper not the defence
A different goalkeeper and we Would have finished bottom half
To be fair John I thought Mings was brilliant after Emery came in. He carried Konsa for a lot of that time like at Everton for example. Improved out of all recognition with the ball and became a lot more decisive without it especially at set piece time. If Torres is going to replace all that he has his work cut out.
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If we are going to a 3, please god can we have Mings to the left and Torres in the middle. Mings started as a left back too so it makes more sense.
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Or just stick to the back 4 that has served us so well under Emery. If we start mucking around with Torres at left back against Newcastle, we’ll probably end up getting rinsed.
If we must persevere with that experiment, do it in the cups or against lesser opponents.
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Or just stick to the back 4 that has served us so well under Emery. If we start mucking around with Torres at left back against Newcastle, we’ll probably end up getting rinsed.
If we must persevere with that experiment, do it in the cups or against lesser opponents.
Yep.
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Or just stick to the back 4 that has served us so well under Emery. If we start mucking around with Torres at left back against Newcastle, we’ll probably end up getting rinsed.
If we must persevere with that experiment, do it in the cups or against lesser opponents.
I doubt he’ll use it, otherwise we’d have seen it (more?) in pre-season. The lop-sided back four could get regular run-outs though.
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The Summer Series showed Torres is no LB . Was a bit of a liability vs Valencia too
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Mings can head a ball which I’m not too convinced Torres is that adept at. What’s happening with Carlos?
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It's getting closer to Mings being available for selection so it opens up the debate if he and Pau are both to play together?
I'm not for two left footed centre back because of lack of balance.
I would prefer a right footed centre back and a left footed one have to say Pau is first choice and essential.
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We will mix it up, I reckon. It'll be nice to have some options if we can get Mings and Konsa back without any more pernicious injuries in the meantime.
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On two left footed centre backs I suppose there were occasions when Hause played With Mings.
Though I remember a very good game for Hause as right sides centre back he also played left back sometimes with Mings centre back.
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It's getting closer to Mings being available for selection so it opens up the debate if he and Pau are both to play together?
I'm not for two left footed centre back because of lack of balance.
I would prefer a right footed centre back and a left footed one have to say Pau is first choice and essential.
The argument has been made before; several times: how many clubs / teams have 2 right-footed centrebacks? - loads, and no one blinks an eye about it. So, there's really no difference having 2 left-footers there, as long as the players can play that system.
This is another non-debate, in my opinion.
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It's getting closer to Mings being available for selection so it opens up the debate if he and Pau are both to play together?
I'm not for two left footed centre back because of lack of balance.
I would prefer a right footed centre back and a left footed one have to say Pau is first choice and essential.
The argument has been made before; several times: how many clubs / teams have 2 right-footed centrebacks? - loads, and no one blinks an eye about it. So, there's really no difference having 2 left-footers there, as long as the players can play that system.
This is another non-debate, in my opinion.
Mings at right centre half for one hasn't got the balance to turn on his right side and would limit the passing lanes and possibilities as he needs it on his left foot.
Similarly Pau if he was shifted to right side the build up wouldn't be the same as it is from his left cb positions nevertheless I would have Pau Torres on right as his ability is better and Mingsy on left but that would see Konsa at right back. Rather this than Pau starting left back. But can they likely start together is the overriding debate ?
I believe the primary benefit of Ming's return is that it provides Pau with more alternatives at centre back and also allows Torres to rest some matches. I don't see them starting together that much.
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The first choice center-back pairing is Konsa and Torres. The backup is Carlos and Mings.
May we see other combinations - sure, but I find it hard to believe that this isn't the thought process of the manager.
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The first choice center-back pairing is Konsa and Torres. The backup is Carlos and Mings.
May we see other combinations - sure, but I find it hard to believe that this isn't the thought process of the manager.
Agreed
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The first choice center-back pairing is Konsa and Torres.
says who
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The first choice center-back pairing is Konsa and Torres.
says who
Fuck me, he did, it's presumably why you replied.
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I'm trying to recall how many matches and results Lenglet and Pau Torres played together last season as they are left-footed, left-sided centre backs.
If I'm not mistaken, Pau player as the right of the two in the middle, with Lenglet left.
But I don't think many games at all where there where two left-footed centre backs so the Pau and Lenglet partnership gives some insight into conundrum about whether Mings and Pau should start together.
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Where do we go from here when Torres comes back? Do we sacrifice defensive stability for his progressive passes or does his passing benefit us more than the Mings Konsa brotherhood?
It's a tough one. We were great at the back under Unai with those 2 but had some spectacular results and performances with Torres.
In most games, given the possession based football Unai likes, Pau is the best option. There’ll definitely be times when Mings is the best option. It’s a shame it’s unlikely they’ll play together.
Overall, Pau is one of our best players.
I see there has been some discussion again on Mings and Pau so it's time to reopen debate about them stating together.
We have yet to see much of a Pau and Mings centre back pairing.
I agree Torres is a must for the way we want to play out from the back and control the possession
I don't really think Mings would ever suit playing alongside him given both are left footed.
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No
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It’s really a dilemma because Mings has been outstanding in last match helping out with the clean sheet and of course last week his goal saving clearance.
However what Pau brings is a sheer level above in terms of ball playing!
if both were fit i really unsure who i favour
I think Emery favours Pau and if they were to both play together though who would be the one playing right side ?
In a back three it could work though .
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There’s a good chance could see this happening sharing Preston.
Would think they have been working on it in training during international break . Be interesting to see if they do start a game this season.
I would have Pau on the right and not Mings . Mings is so left footed it’s best to keep him that side due to his balance and his size.
His balance sometimes impacted by his size when he’s turning.
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No, Mings and Konsa the two central pairing. It’s up to Pau to play himself back in.
The shirt is Tyrone’s for me. We are weaker without him, the stats support this I think.
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If we can’t try Mings and Pau against Preston when can we try them ? The southampton game offers a chance in between the PSG matches but really a lot of games now it’s a risk to try it.
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Mings can't play 3 games in a week . It's not sustainable.
Therefore we have to risk Torres in some games .
I'd use him vs Brighton as they are a less physical side yet v Forest Mings should play .
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I don't understand why this is a debate or question.
We have Konsa who is currently the best England central defender playing on the right of central defence and Disasi as his back up. Sure if both were out Mings could fill in as an emergency option possibly.
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I don't understand why this is a debate or question.
We have Konsa who is currently the best England central defender playing on the right of central defence and Disasi as his back up. Sure if both were out Mings could fill in as an emergency option possibly.
there is plenty of debate on this
Pau against Brighton then Tyrone for Forest/PSG then Pau against Southampton. We have two quality LCBs in the squad and with this fixture schedule we need to use them.
Emery likes having left sided centre backs though. Disasi's here as an option on the right and at right back. Mings won't play every game, but it will be Pau that comes in when he doesn't play.
And that will be the issue . Our leaky defence is likely to have cost us top 5 this season unless we can go on an epic run now whilst also juggling the cups .
I don’t understand why Pau and Mings didn’t get a chance together v Preston
I can only see Southampton as only other option they both start .
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23/24 F76 A61
24/25 F54 A49 (so far)
Doubt we will score 22 in 4 games to match 23/24
and Mings run of games instead of Torres has improved the GA per game ratios .
Don’t forget 22/23 when we conceded less goals than Liverpool, despite the handicap of Gerrard for the first 11 games and as one poster told us, players who were not top 6 quality.
22/23 (Mings/Konsa)
GA 46
Pau and or Mings is the question and it seems that Pau is Emery first choices.
Pau and Mings together as a partnership is unlikely to happen
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Can we have that in Spanish please