Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Rico on February 28, 2023, 12:24:54 PM
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Can someone definitively answer this:
Which was bigger? Wolves fans are always saying that their end was bigger, but I always understood that the Holte End was the largest single bank of terracing in English football.
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Biggest terrace was Charlton, but that was a side terrace. I think at various times the Holte, South Bank and Kop at Sheffield Wednesday had spells as the biggest. There was very little between the 3 until they squared off the Kop and South Bank fell into ruin. Then the Holte reigned supreme.
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I've never even heard of the South Bank :D
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All 3 were very impressive back in the day and shit all over the North Bank, Stretford, Anfield Kop etc.
(https://images.webapi.gc.avfcservices.co.uk/fit-in/1000x1000/48cc9a30-b739-11ec-8824-1fc899bd2d69.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/0f/14/53/0f1453ca426810588af4fe4fb1f55b65--sheffield.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7yyudy0PTo4/SLgcqMAYsuI/AAAAAAAADjY/9zZXl2wpX_0/s320/Molineaux~old.jpg)
And the Charlton East terrace
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/28/5a/c8/285ac8cd77e7ea7a7a4b75329b0e81cc.jpg)
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I am pretty sure the Wolves end was the biggest one for a while.
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Holte 1951
(https://i.ibb.co/mRRrVjR/IMG-20230101-WA0000-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mRRrVjR)
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I understood it that the Holte end was 19000 in the late eighties early nineties and the most the South bank ever held was 18000. Might be wrong though.
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The South Bank was split between home and away. It wasn't even their end.
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I understood it that the Holte end was 19000 in the late eighties early nineties and the most the South bank ever held was 18000. Might be wrong though.
You are, all 3 were around 30k at their peaks.
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Bloody hell !
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The South Bank was split between home and away. It wasn't even their end.
Was that always the case though? I stood on a few occasions back when it was split. Never had the class of the Holte End of course!
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The East Terrace at Charlton was reckoned to be 40-44k capacity.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spion_Kop_(stadiums)
According to Wiki
Villa Park's old Holte End was historically the largest of all Kop ends, closely followed by the old South Bank at Molineux, both once regularly holding crowds in excess of 30,000.
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Could somebody amend the spelling of the Doghead ground in the title please, it's doing my head in!
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You can still see some of the old terrace at The Valley, behind one of the newer stands. It’s absolutely massive.
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The South Bank was split between home and away. It wasn't even their end.
Was that always the case though? I stood on a few occasions back when it was split. Never had the class of the Holte End of course!
They split it as the north bank and other shitty stand were condemned to accommodate away fans. After Bradford disaster I think. Also, they built a new stand that was miles away from the pitch and no-one wanted to go in it.
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That's right it was. It was a proper turd of a place back then but i suppose when in the 3rd and 4th division it still had enough capacity. That new stand they built is still there and the away fans sit in the bottom now.
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Younger fans would probably find it hard to believe that The Valley was the biggest club ground in the country for a numbers of years, up until sometime in the 70s when it fell into disrepair.
As for Molineux, most of it was an absolute shit tip for the majority of the 80s. Piss taking aside it must have been a miserable experience going to games for those that were old enough to remember the ground and team in their pomp and then be in Division 4 in a ground falling apart with 'crowds' of 4k and under.
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The South Bank was split between home and away. It wasn't even their end.
Yes, their end like all ends back then was all important and their end was the North Bank.
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I'm sure that I have read somewhere that the Holte End was designed to hold 40,000 people. Wether it ever did is anyone's guess, but when I started going in the 70s capacity had been reduced to 26000 for safety reasons, and then after the Taylor Report it was reduced further to 19000.
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The South Bank was split between home and away. It wasn't even their end.
Was that always the case though? I stood on a few occasions back when it was split. Never had the class of the Holte End of course!
They split it as the north bank and other shitty stand were condemned to accommodate away fans. After Bradford disaster I think. Also, they built a new stand that was miles away from the pitch and no-one wanted to go in it.
It was before then. I remember going there in 1979 and it was split.
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The first time I stood on the South Bank at Wolves was in the 1975/76 season, when home and away fans would both stand on that terrace. It was a night match, and I recall it was kind of a strange atmosphere on there. Wolves were relegated that season, and their last match was at home v Liverpool, which Wolves needed to win to stay up, and Liverpool needed to win to pip QPR to the title. Liverpool won of course, 3-1. Me and a mate went to the game, which wasn't all-ticket. We tried to get into the South Bank, but were locked out, and thankfully so, as it was total mayhem all around. I think it was after that game that the fence went up on the South Bank, so that home and away fans could stand seperately.
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Could somebody amend the spelling of the Doghead ground in the title please, it's doing my head in!
Done...
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Could somebody amend the spelling of the Doghead ground in the title please, it's doing my head in!
Done...
How about it being done correctly? :P
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He's made it simple...
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C-u-s-t-a-r-d b-o-w-l
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C-u-s-t-a-r-d b-o-w-l
The winner.
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Use to have one of them football diaries where it had how big certain sections of each ground held in terms of fans,it had the Holte as 28 thousand and the South Bank as 28,5000
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The Holte was much more of a building, (rather than an earthen bank) than the other two (the Kop and the South Bank), or the Valley for that matter.
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I stood on that East Terrace at Charlton a couple of times back in the sixties, it really was huge.
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I stood on that big side terracing at Charlton to watch The Who in 1976. Very big, very full, very loud.
Not an end, but the sheer scale of the terracing at the old Hampden Park when I went to a Scotland v England game in 1974 was impressive.
Hampden holds the British attendance record (150k) and still got crowds well in excess of 100k into the 1970s.
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Biggest terrace was Charlton, but that was a side terrace. I think at various times the Holte, South Bank and Kop at Sheffield Wednesday had spells as the biggest. There was very little between the 3 until they squared off the Kop and South Bank fell into ruin. Then the Holte reigned supreme.
I went to Old Trafford with a mate in 1976 and was surprised how small the Stretford end was. Not only that, it wasn’t all terrace but had seating at the back.
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Bertie Mee says toBill Shankley.
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Villa Park's old Holte End was historically the largest of all Kop ends, closely followed by the old South Bank at Molineux, both once regularly holding crowds in excess of 30,000.[3]
Wikipedia says it's true, so it must be.
Holte End wins.
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The East Terrace at Charlton was reckoned to be 40-44k capacity.
The home e d at Elland Road holds 45000, so there.
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There will never be a definitive answer as at their peak the capacities for all 3 stands were estimates. Ground capacities as a whole were estimates back then.
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Can someone definitively answer this:
Which was bigger? Wolves fans are always saying that their end was bigger, but I always understood that the Holte End was the largest single bank of terracing in English football.
The only large thing about Wolves is their opinion of themselves
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Can someone definitively answer this:
Which was bigger? Wolves fans are always saying that their end was bigger, but I always understood that the Holte End was the largest single bank of terracing in English football.
The only large thing about Wolves is their opinion of themselves
Nice - and accurate.
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No one outside of Wolverhampton has ever heard or the South Bank, so we win
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No one outside of Wolverhampton has ever heard or the South Bank, so we win
I always think of London and the skate park thingy, there.
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The Holte was much more of a building, (rather than an earthen bank) than the other two (the Kop and the South Bank), or the Valley for that matter.
That’s because the Holte was Archibald Leitch-designed.
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You can still see some of the old terrace at The Valley, behind one of the newer stands. It’s absolutely massive.
Wasn't The Valley in the 70's and 80's the largest club ground in England? I'm sure it once held around 75,000 at that time.
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There will never be a definitive answer as at their peak the capacities for all 3 stands were estimates. Ground capacities as a whole were estimates back then.
And some chairmen fiddled the gates.
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All 3 were very impressive back in the day and shit all over the North Bank, Stretford, Anfield Kop etc.
(https://images.webapi.gc.avfcservices.co.uk/fit-in/1000x1000/48cc9a30-b739-11ec-8824-1fc899bd2d69.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/0f/14/53/0f1453ca426810588af4fe4fb1f55b65--sheffield.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7yyudy0PTo4/SLgcqMAYsuI/AAAAAAAADjY/9zZXl2wpX_0/s320/Molineaux~old.jpg)
And the Charlton East terrace
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/28/5a/c8/285ac8cd77e7ea7a7a4b75329b0e81cc.jpg)
Seeing that picture of the old South Bank brought back memories of going there in the 1970s and 1980s - anyone remember that time in October 1981 when we beat them 3 times in 3 weeks - 3-2 in the League Cup (Villa Park First Leg - Andy Gray sent off) then 3-0 at theirs in the league followed by another win - 2-1 I think the following Tuesday in the League Cup 2nd leg. At 3-0 in the league game we were singing "we'll be back on Tuesday night" - happy days and even better that they were relegated that year.
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Imagine trying to boast about having a huge stand whilst getting crowds as low as 2,500.
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Wasn't it the mid-70s when grounds first had to have proper safety certificates and crush barriers across the whole stand? From this point they had a proper capacity I guess, which was calculated based on size, access etc rather than guesses and estimates.
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Interesting discussion and my memory when growing up was that the South Bank was the largest (if rundown) but the Holte End was more famous/prestigious and hadn't heard of the Spion Kop at Hillsborough being in the frame. Happy to go with Rico/Wiki that the Holte End was the largest although it may depend on the estimate at a given time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spion_Kop_(stadiums)
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You can still see some of the old terrace at The Valley, behind one of the newer stands. It’s absolutely massive.
Wasn't The Valley in the 70's and 80's the largest club ground in England? I'm sure it once held around 75,000 at that time.
I recall my Panini albums in the late 70s listed the capacity as 66,000 which stuck in my head as it seemed a bit mad for Charlton. Their record crowd is 75,031 for an FA Cup tie against Villa in 1938.
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My brother worked in Woolwich last summer in the local Credit Union. He's Villa but Charlton are his second team.
He strolled down to the Valley during one lunch-break and bought an office-friendly jumper (black, tight-knit, with a small Charlton badge on it) from the club shop. His new colleagues all thought he was crazy.
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Charlton played a couple of seasons in Lewisham, at Catford South End’s ground, which only had a 50,000 capacity……
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I think it was only ever used for football for a short time by Bradford after the fire, but the Odsal always looked as though it would have been a sight and a half when full at its peak. Record attendance was just over 102k.
(https://miro.medium.com/max/1400/1*zcVJR0WkIz5uw13HUsowLA.jpeg)
(https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/resources/images/10284978/?type=responsive-gallery-fullscreen)
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The South Bank was split between home and away. It wasn't even their end.
Was that always the case though? I stood on a few occasions back when it was split. Never had the class of the Holte End of course!
They split it as the north bank and other shitty stand were condemned to accommodate away fans. After Bradford disaster I think. Also, they built a new stand that was miles away from the pitch and no-one wanted to go in it.
It was before then. I remember going there in 1979 and it was split.
OK, maybe the North Bank was closed earlier than I thought. But th main stand was closed as it was made of matchsticks
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You can still see some of the old terrace at The Valley, behind one of the newer stands. It’s absolutely massive.
Wasn't The Valley in the 70's and 80's the largest club ground in England? I'm sure it once held around 75,000 at that time.
I recall my Panini albums in the late 70s listed the capacity as 66,000 which stuck in my head as it seemed a bit mad for Charlton. Their record crowd is 75,031 for an FA Cup tie against Villa in 1938.
I remember exactly the same thing!
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I'm sure that I have read somewhere that the Holte End was designed to hold 40,000 people. Wether it ever did is anyone's guess, but when I started going in the 70s capacity had been reduced to 26000 for safety reasons, and then after the Taylor Report it was reduced further to 19000.
I’m sure I read somewhere that originally the Holte was going to be built for 60k, but changed when they realised how far back they needed to go.
Disclaimer:
I may have misread or even dreamt this
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(https://i.ibb.co/kDSJrQm/Screenshot-20230301-181238-2.png) (https://ibb.co/kDSJrQm)
Largest Bank of terracing according to the Last Day of The Holte End certificate.
Doug said it was true - so it must be true!
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I'm sure that I have read somewhere that the Holte End was designed to hold 40,000 people. Wether it ever did is anyone's guess, but when I started going in the 70s capacity had been reduced to 26000 for safety reasons, and then after the Taylor Report it was reduced further to 19000.
I’m sure I read somewhere that originally the Holte was going to be built for 60k, but changed when they realised how far back they needed to go.
Disclaimer:
I may have misread or even dreamt this
Might have been part of Rinder's plans for us to have 100k plus capacity which were derailed by WW1 I think
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(https://i.ibb.co/kDSJrQm/Screenshot-20230301-181238-2.png) (https://ibb.co/kDSJrQm)
Largest Bank of terracing according to the Last Day of The Holte End certificate.
Doug said it was true - so it must be true!
The veracity of that "certificate" may be somewhat undermined by its closing statement of 'The Evening Mail loves the Villa'.
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I'm sure that I have read somewhere that the Holte End was designed to hold 40,000 people. Wether it ever did is anyone's guess, but when I started going in the 70s capacity had been reduced to 26000 for safety reasons, and then after the Taylor Report it was reduced further to 19000.
I’m sure I read somewhere that originally the Holte was going to be built for 60k, but changed when they realised how far back they needed to go.
Disclaimer:
I may have misread or even dreamt this
Might have been part of Rinder's plans for us to have 100k plus capacity which were derailed by WW1 I think
Ahh, that’s the one, thanks 👍
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Imagine trying to boast about having a huge stand whilst getting crowds as low as 2,500.
The ultimate for small crowds in a big ground has to be Queens Park.
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Imagine trying to boast about having a huge stand whilst getting crowds as low as 2,500.
The ultimate for small crowds in a big ground has to be Queens Park.
I can't find the news article for it now, might have another look later, but in the late 1940s (1949/50 season?) and following promotion to Division A and a sell out (26,000-ish) crowd for their game against Rangers, Cowdenbeath had plans to build a 40,000 capacity stadium. In Cowdenbeath. A town with a population of 12000. It'd have needed something crazy like 1 in 7 of the entire county of Fife - every man, woman, and child - to become regular match-going Cowden fans to fill it.
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(https://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-1545-13907421608477.jpg)
The Holte End
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Imagine trying to boast about having a huge stand whilst getting crowds as low as 2,500.
The ultimate for small crowds in a big ground has to be Queens Park.
I can't find the news article for it now, might have another look later, but in the late 1940s (1949/50 season?) and following promotion to Division A and a sell out (26,000-ish) crowd for their game against Rangers, Cowdenbeath had plans to build a 40,000 capacity stadium. In Cowdenbeath. A town with a population of 12000. It'd have needed something crazy like 1 in 7 of the entire county of Fife - every man, woman, and child - to become regular match-going Cowden fans to fill it.
Brechin's ground used to hold 10,000. Brechin's population is 7,000.
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I'm always vaguely amused by the club being called Brechin City but the place being so small. The club got relegated to the Scottish non-league system a few years ago but up until a couple of weeks ago were unbeaten this season and still weren't top in of the Highland League.
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(https://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-1545-13907421608477.jpg)
The Holte End
That picture is both scary and beautiful at the same time. Don't recall seeing it before, nice one.
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The ultimate for small crowds in a big ground has to be Queens Park.
I can't find the news article for it now, might have another look later, but in the late 1940s (1949/50 season?) and following promotion to Division A and a sell out (26,000-ish) crowd for their game against Rangers, Cowdenbeath had plans to build a 40,000 capacity stadium. In Cowdenbeath. A town with a population of 12000. It'd have needed something crazy like 1 in 7 of the entire county of Fife - every man, woman, and child - to become regular match-going Cowden fans to fill it.
Brechin's ground used to hold 10,000. Brechin's population is 7,000.
Queen's Park might be getting some bigger crowds if they're promoted to the Premiership this season. As for Scotland, didn't it used to have the highest football attendances per capita in Europe? Not sure if that's still the case,
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The ultimate for small crowds in a big ground has to be Queens Park.
I can't find the news article for it now, might have another look later, but in the late 1940s (1949/50 season?) and following promotion to Division A and a sell out (26,000-ish) crowd for their game against Rangers, Cowdenbeath had plans to build a 40,000 capacity stadium. In Cowdenbeath. A town with a population of 12000. It'd have needed something crazy like 1 in 7 of the entire county of Fife - every man, woman, and child - to become regular match-going Cowden fans to fill it.
Brechin's ground used to hold 10,000. Brechin's population is 7,000.
Queen's Park might be getting some bigger crowds if they're promoted to the Premiership this season. As for Scotland, didn't it used to have the highest football attendances per capita in Europe? Not sure if that's still the case,
Leeds would've had more
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Wasn't Barnsley the biggest ground compared to size of the town population in England? I think it used to hold about 40K at one point for a town of about 70,000 people.
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I was in St. Tiernach's Park in Clones last Sunday. Its capacity is 36k and the town has a population of 1,700. Admittedly it is Monaghan's home ground but the the whole county only has a population of around 61k.
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Imagine trying to boast about having a huge stand whilst getting crowds as low as 2,500.
The ultimate for small crowds in a big ground has to be Queens Park.
I can't find the news article for it now, might have another look later, but in the late 1940s (1949/50 season?) and following promotion to Division A and a sell out (26,000-ish) crowd for their game against Rangers, Cowdenbeath had plans to build a 40,000 capacity stadium. In Cowdenbeath. A town with a population of 12000. It'd have needed something crazy like 1 in 7 of the entire county of Fife - every man, woman, and child - to become regular match-going Cowden fans to fill it.
Brechin's ground used to hold 10,000. Brechin's population is 7,000.
Well, you never know, one day the whole town might turn up plus 3000 away fans !
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I got the Cowdenbeath thing wrong, unfortunately.
They actually had designs on building a 'Hampden of Fife', with a capacity of just 80,000. They ended up having to pull back on it, unsurprisingly and to a certain amount of pisstaking, but Central Park was still rated as having a 30,000 35,000 capacity - 2.5 3 times the size of Cowdenbeath itself.
(see "Bing Boys of Fife" and "Just The Job")
(https://www.londonhearts.com/scores/images/1949/1949101513.jpg)
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Interesting cure for rheumatism.
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Good debate this. Terrace capacity used to be more of an estimate really. The Holte and The South Bank were both estimated to hold 30,000 in their pomp. The Holte takes it for me as it was a proper construction with facilities like bars and toilets although pretty basic. Also it had proper exits. Never went in the South Bank but from the images it just look like a massive embankment and nothing else. Both looked spectacular when packed. I love to see pictures of the old Hampden Park packed. The side terrace looks as high as the Holte End and had a seated area at the back. I swear it must of been able to hold 50,000!! I once went on the pitch at Anfield when it was empty and old Kop terrace was still standing. It looked tiny compared to the Holte although it did wrap around the sides a bit. They used to say it also had a capacity of 30,000 but I really can't see it. I definitely wouldn't have wanted to be in there with that many people.
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One is the Holte End, the other needed away fans to occupy it.
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One thing I will say about Molineux is I hope our new North Stand doesn't look anything like any of the newer bits of that place, that newest stand looks incredibly cheap, it has all the design values of a retail park supermarket.
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As the thread title suggests, one you need to explain where it is/was. No contest.
As for Paulie's point about a cheap and nasty job on the North Stand, I'd be very surprised if that was the case. One thing that always pisses me off is the horrible plastic signage on the Trinity Road that gets used so often by the media. I can't see us repeating the cheapskate Ellis horrors of the past and we'll build something instead that won't need changing for years to come.
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Bloody weird that South Bank it didn't line up with the pitch. The end of season game that Wolves needed to win to stay up and us to win to get into Europe late 70's is the one where I stood furthest back there. All in all the biggest shithole I have ever stood on.
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If the original plans for Villa Park to hold 120,000 are correct, then it was probably going to be something like Holte End and Witton End 40,000 each, and the Trinity and Witton Lane 20,000 each.
I've stood on the South Bank in the 80s for a mid week game. If memory serves me right it was a League Cup game. There was some incident involving Steve Bull, but I can't remember exactly what it was. Anyway the South Bank didn't strike me as being anywhere near as big as the Holte. The ground in general was a dump, and the John Ireland Stand may as well of been in a different county it was so far from the pitch.
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If the original plans for Villa Park to hold 120,000 are correct, then it was probably going to be something like Holte End and Witton End 40,000 each, and the Trinity and Witton Lane 20,000 each.
I've stood on the South Bank in the 80s for a mid week game. If memory serves me right it was a League Cup game. There was some incident involving Steve Bull, but I can't remember exactly what it was. Anyway the South Bank didn't strike me as being anywhere near as big as the Holte. The ground in general was a dump, and the John Ireland Stand may as well of been in a different county it was so far from the pitch.
That game was an early League Cup game, a second leg. I think Mountfield scored and Bull equalised but got clattered by Spink as they both went for the high ball. We were on a section of the South Bank, much of it was closed as was the North Bank and old Waterloo Road Stand. It was the one and only time I've seen a game there, although I did see Rod Stewart a few years ago.
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The Holte 70s/ 80s ? (see the balloons)
(https://i.ibb.co/30jfPdY/96597956-3219059281471452-2981577459503202304-o.jpg) (https://ibb.co/30jfPdY)
The planned expansion:
(https://i.ibb.co/T8LBG9v/DKqz9fn-Xc-AA2u-De.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T8LBG9v)
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(https://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/uploads/monthly_01_2014/post-1545-13907421608477.jpg)
The Holte End
That picture is both scary and beautiful at the same time. Don't recall seeing it before, nice one.
It's giving me vertigo. And how long did they all have to wait for some kid to pour them a beer at half-time...
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Spurs v Burnley, 1961 semi final
(https://i.redd.it/goazlqk2x3351.jpg)
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/47/88/87/4788875e8387783df2befc246e0efd8a--the-fa-the-ojays.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fn5sVB2WABAIIp9?format=jpg&name=large)
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The Holte 70s/ 80s ? (see the balloons)
(https://i.ibb.co/30jfPdY/96597956-3219059281471452-2981577459503202304-o.jpg) (https://ibb.co/30jfPdY)
The planned expansion:
(https://i.ibb.co/T8LBG9v/DKqz9fn-Xc-AA2u-De.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T8LBG9v)
90s IMO.
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I'm surprised anyone wouldn't know that's the last day of the Holte v Liverpool.
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I'm surprised anyone wouldn't know that's the last day of the Holte v Liverpool.
That’s what I thought.
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I'm surprised anyone wouldn't know that's the last day of the Holte v Liverpool.
That’s what I thought.
Is it?
I'm in there somewhere then.........where's my magnifying glass?
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Ask any four year old to draw a football ground with a thick crayon on corrugated cardboard and you'll be looking at the molineux thirty years ago.
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If the original plans for Villa Park to hold 120,000 are correct, then it was probably going to be something like Holte End and Witton End 40,000 each, and the Trinity and Witton Lane 20,000 each.
I've stood on the South Bank in the 80s for a mid week game. If memory serves me right it was a League Cup game. There was some incident involving Steve Bull, but I can't remember exactly what it was. Anyway the South Bank didn't strike me as being anywhere near as big as the Holte. The ground in general was a dump, and the John Ireland Stand may as well of been in a different county it was so far from the pitch.
That game was an early League Cup game, a second leg. I think Mountfield scored and Bull equalised but got clattered by Spink as they both went for the high ball. We were on a section of the South Bank, much of it was closed as was the North Bank and old Waterloo Road Stand. It was the one and only time I've seen a game there, although I did see Rod Stewart a few years ago.
My Dad was at that one. He said Bull clattered into Spink earlier in the game. So the next time a cross came into the box, Spink completely ignored the ball and laid out Bull.
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I'm surprised anyone wouldn't know that's the last day of the Holte v Liverpool.
I was in there upper right for the Holte End Last Stand but how can you tell from that picture? Hazy memories due to large amounts of alcohol. We took our lifelong blues supporting brother who asked to come with us that day to stand where our dad used to stand for many years. Even they understood the significance of that day. Someone let off a fire extinguisher one of those powder ones when we scored and that was fucking frightening. It literally saucked all the air out and for a few seconds we could not breathe. We survived though. Happy days and what a privilege it was to stand there one last time on one of THE most iconic terraces ever built. I don't think anyone can say that about the South Bank at Molineux. Holte End wins this debate hands down.