Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Meanwood Villa on February 05, 2023, 02:28:31 PM
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I make it 5 out of the last 7 home matches (Brentford, Man Utd, Liverpool, Leeds and Leicester) that we have attacked the Holte first half.
I assume it is the away team determining this. I wasn't there yesterday but there was the traditional booing at the Leeds game when it happened.
Given its recent frequency, at what point does it become the norm?
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I remember Graham Taylor also tried it.
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Someone in the post match thread was going on about it and saying it needs to stop immediately. Why?
We've done it a fair few times now and Brentford, Man. United, Leeds and yesterday we made terrific starts and were at least a goal up in the first 10 minutes which is generally what you want to do in home games.
Even the Liverpool match we started pretty well after going 1 down early but couldn't finish.
I think it's a really good tactic by Emery if he's instigated it. Shows the attention to detail other managers have lacked as means we're more switched on at start of match rather than a sloppy start and then thinking we can just get back into the game second half.
The stats show the tactic is generally working so I don't have an issue with it continuing. I also feel more confident if we're leading and away teams are trying to get back into the game infront of Holte as they're obviously not attacking towards noise encouraging them as they would if attacks are coming down the Witton side which can give a team a boost.
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Home team winning the toss and selecting other end is bollox. It’s just silly. Unprofessional and unnecessary. If you are going to do that than take to the field properly however not lining up in front of your iconic end is just desperate. Stop it now.
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The solution is to build an exact replica of the Holte in place of the North stand. Ultimately profiling all ticket applicants at both ends as well to achieve an absolutely precise crowd atmosphere at both ends too.
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They said Martinez chose yesterday
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Did the direction we were kicking really make any discernible difference to Kamara dawdling on the ball, or Moreno being able to control a moving ball?
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Did the direction we were kicking really make any discernible difference to Kamara dawdling on the ball, or Moreno being able to control a moving ball?
Quite. I couldn’t give a flying fuck which end we attack first. As others have said and in my own view it’s been over 20 years since I’ve seen us generally get up a head of steam surging towards the Holte second half, mostly because we’ve been utter bobbins in that time.
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Did the direction we were kicking really make any discernible difference to Kamara dawdling on the ball, or Moreno being able to control a moving ball?
Quite. I couldn’t give a flying fuck which end we attack first. As others have said and in my own view it’s been over 20 years since I’ve seen us generally get up a head of steam surging towards the Holte second half, mostly because we’ve been utter bobbins in that time.
I'm also in the 'whatever the players prefer to do' is fine by me camp.
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Villa have chosen a few times to kick towards the Holte in the first half and a few times we have scored early goals.
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Does it really matter or actually make much difference?
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Does it really matter or actually make much difference?
Absolutely none whatsoever.
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I don't think it makes any difference (or it shouldn't at least) but I thought it was curious that what used to be a once or twice a season occurrence now appears to be happening more often than not.
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Does it really matter or actually make much difference?
Absolutely none whatsoever.
Yet the players obviously think it does. They haven’t just broken with tradition on a whim.
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I couldn't tell you which way round the kicks off have been, but apart from Man U, the home perfomances have all been a bit shit. Even the Leeds game we didn't really deserve to win, as Emery himself acknowledged.
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I couldn't tell you which way round the kicks off have been, but apart from Man U, the home perfomances have all been a bit shit. Even the Leeds game we didn't really deserve to win, as Emery himself acknowledged.
We should've knocked 8 past Brentford and they're only a few points off 5th currently. That was attacking the Holte first half for sure.
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I meant since Emery has been here.
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Does it really matter or actually make much difference?
Absolutely none whatsoever.
Yet the players obviously think it does. They haven’t just broken with tradition on a whim.
It’s a desperate whim. Since this present obsession started we have won 3 drawn 1 and lost 2. Not exactly incredible home form.
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They said Martinez chose yesterday
They kicked off yesterday so he must have chosen.
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Its like 3.00 kick offs , does it matter, it should not. But its tradition.
The Holte sucking the ball in during a second half onslaught is probably something that happened only in my head
But ,without trying to research it I bet Newton heath attack the Stretford and l/pool the Kop in the second half.
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With Villa fans at both ends it doesn’t make any difference anymore. I can see why they did it when away fans were in the lower North Stand but when that changed so did any preconceived ideas that we got any advantage out of it.
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Exactly, as Lee Johnson the old Bristol City manager once said ‘two home ends makes a massive difference, it’s an unfair advantage and needs to be looked into by the FA, authorities, Police and MI5.’ Not word for word but it was along those lines.
I quite like us kicking towards the Holte in the first half.
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Exactly, as Lee Johnson the old Bristol City manager once said ‘two home ends makes a massive difference, it’s an unfair advantage and needs to be looked into by the FA, authorities, Police and MI5.’ Not word for word but it was along those lines.
I quite like us kicking towards the Holte in the first half.
That comment was after Villa 5 Bristol City 0 on 01/01/2018. There were the usual New Year celebrations before kick off. One of their fans phoned R5Live to say that you could see who Villa's big game was against as they had fireworks before the match.
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I wonder whether Martinez likes it. He really does vibe off the crowd reaction and if he's in the Holte too, perhaps it really motivates him.
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If it doesn't matter, which way we kick off, why don't we make a fast start kicking towards the North Stand.
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Does it really matter or actually make much difference?
Absolutely none whatsoever.
It obviously does psychologically. We've scored quickly 4 out of 5 times when we've done it. You can understand why Emi want to kep that up.
Leiceter - kicked towards Holte - scored in 9 mins
Leeds - kicked towards Holte - scored in 12 mins
Stevenage - Didn't kick towards Holte. Stevenage had early goal disallowed.
Wolves - Didn't kick towards Holte, Wolves took lead
Liverpool - kicked towards Holte, Liverpool took early lead (didn't work)
Man U - kicked towards Holte - scored in 7 mins
Brentford - kicked towards Holte - scored in 2 mins
Personally I prefer watch us attack the Holte in the second half, but it is clearly making a difference.
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Not in a sample so small it isn't!
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Not in a sample so small it isn't!
I think 4 out of 5 is pretty complelling - at least enough to make Emi to want to keep doing it. Particularly when the 5th was Liverpool.
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Not in a sample so small it isn't!
I think 4 out of 5 is pretty complelling - at least enough to make Emi to want to keep doing it. Particularly when the 5th was Liverpool.
There's more to this than scoring first. We did that against Leicester and lost the game. We did it first against Leeds, and probably should have lost the game.
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Do they take windshear and sunlight into account when picking ends?
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Emery clearly wants us to start games quickly rather then give the impetus to the opposition. Hard to prove one way or the other what difference it makes but if the players think it helps kicking towards the Holte then they should stick with it.
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I hadn’t considered it was our own choice. I’d assumed we’d lost the toss, and opposing captains did it to “ get at us “
As an aside, what’s the reason subs, for the last few years, warm up in the North Stand half ? All my lifetime it was the Holte. If it’s due to the linesman, why did that change ?.
And whilst I think about it, why did the dugouts swap sides ?
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Didn't Gerrard swap the dugouts around?
Danks was the first one to attack the Holte End first half and we made a fantastic start to the game. Interesting that Emery's continued that tactic. I wonder if he's done the same at his previous clubs?
I think what's more interesting is that for all the times we've attacked the Holte in the second half, there must have been times where the opposition won the coin toss and didn't change ends. It's been very rare for opposition teams to do that.
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Didn't Gerrard swap the dugouts around?
Danks was the first one to attack the Holte End first half and we made a fantastic start to the game. Interesting that Emery's continued that tactic. I wonder if he's done the same at his previous clubs?
I think what's more interesting is that for all the times we've attacked the Holte in the second half, there must have been times where the opposition won the coin toss and didn't change ends. It's been very rare for opposition teams to do that.
So I was thinking about this - and I might be wrong. But is it Emi that has done it - as hes been captain since then?
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I hadn’t considered it was our own choice. I’d assumed we’d lost the toss, and opposing captains did it to “ get at us “
As an aside, what’s the reason subs, for the last few years, warm up in the North Stand half ? All my lifetime it was the Holte. If it’s due to the linesman, why did that change ?.
And whilst I think about it, why did the dugouts swap sides ?
On the dugouts, our bench would always sit closer to the tunnel. It was possibly Lambert who changed it as there is a school of thought that you stand on the right to have a quiet word with the assistant referee because he'll obviously start giving you decisions when you're calling him names. I think it was then Steve Bruce that switched back to the left (presumably because he had some genius tactical ideas he needed to quickly get back to the changing rooms to communicate at half time). It hasn't changed since.
Substitutes warming up is to get out of the assistant referee's way I presume. I don't know when it changed but must have been post O'Neill as Sidwell managed to help a quick throw in while warming up that led to a goal at the Holte End
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I think it comes down to Martinez. My brother and I both think there's no more to it than him wanting the Holte at his back for the second half. As one of the many decrying the seeming paucity these days of players in it for the adulation and the more intangible elements of the glory the game has to offer, I'm not going to knock him for it. He knows that one day he'll pull off a worldy in the dying seconds to secure the points, and he wants to be able to turn round and bask in the love showered down on him.
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Lambert swapped the dugouts - but I'm not sure who swapped them back. Bruce definitely used the current home one.
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It happened against Liverpool too when Olsen was in goal. And when McGinn has played, Martinez hasn't been captain.
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It happened against Liverpool too when Olsen was in goal. And when McGinn has played, Martinez hasn't been captain.
We didn't win the toss against Liverpool.
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I think it comes down to Martinez. My brother and I both think there's no more to it than him wanting the Holte at his back for the second half. As one of the many decrying the seeming paucity these days of players in it for the adulation and the more intangible elements of the glory the game has to offer, I'm not going to knock him for it. He knows that one day he'll pull off a worldy in the dying seconds to secure the points, and he wants to be able to turn round and bask in the love showered down on him.
Nice try. He can do that just as well in the first half. It happened against Brentford first. I think they won the toss and as all small teams do decided to disrupts us by changing ends. We rammed in 3. Since than our players want to attack HE in the first half. It’s a bit small time. Sustained success is not based on this sort of stuff.
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I think it comes down to Martinez. My brother and I both think there's no more to it than him wanting the Holte at his back for the second half. As one of the many decrying the seeming paucity these days of players in it for the adulation and the more intangible elements of the glory the game has to offer, I'm not going to knock him for it. He knows that one day he'll pull off a worldy in the dying seconds to secure the points, and he wants to be able to turn round and bask in the love showered down on him.
Selfish cnut.
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I think it comes down to Martinez. My brother and I both think there's no more to it than him wanting the Holte at his back for the second half. As one of the many decrying the seeming paucity these days of players in it for the adulation and the more intangible elements of the glory the game has to offer, I'm not going to knock him for it. He knows that one day he'll pull off a worldy in the dying seconds to secure the points, and he wants to be able to turn round and bask in the love showered down on him.
Selfish cnut.
Me or Martinez? I sit near the half way line, so I don't really give that much of a toss, if I'm totally honest.
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It happened against Liverpool too when Olsen was in goal. And when McGinn has played, Martinez hasn't been captain.
We didn't win the toss against Liverpool.
Didn't we? I was going off chrisw's post. McGinn will still have been captain for some of those games. I don't think Martinez would have decided what he wanted to do. You only have to see how much detail Emery goes into.
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I think it comes down to Martinez. My brother and I both think there's no more to it than him wanting the Holte at his back for the second half. As one of the many decrying the seeming paucity these days of players in it for the adulation and the more intangible elements of the glory the game has to offer, I'm not going to knock him for it. He knows that one day he'll pull off a worldy in the dying seconds to secure the points, and he wants to be able to turn round and bask in the love showered down on him.
Selfish cnut.
Me or Martinez? I sit near the half way line, so I don't really give that much of a toss, if I'm totally honest.
Was only half-joking but I meant the Argentinian chap.
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I always thought O'Neill requested to swap the dugouts at around the same time we moved the away fans from the North to the Witton?
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I always thought O'Neill requested to swap the dugouts at around the same time we moved the away fans from the North to the Witton?
I did a quick google and it was Lambert
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villa-i-want-my-dugout-closer-186520 (https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villa-i-want-my-dugout-closer-186520)
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Bruce changed it back because he thought it was a jinx or something!
Never got that either. You'd think if we score in last minute a manager would enjoy having a gentle jog halfway down the touchline to salute the Holte. As it is now you'd have to cross the opposition bench and that's a big no no really.
I assume the Liverpool dugout is closest to the Kop given the celebrations Klopp does after some goals.
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I don't like it. We have always attacked the Holte second half. I used to love cheering the away keeper as he approached the old Holte for the second half only to boo loudly when he acknowledged us. Great banter. Stick with tradition.
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I don't like it. We have always attacked the Holte second half. I used to love cheering the away keeper as he approached the old Holte for the second half only to boo loudly when he acknowledged us. Great banter. Stick with tradition.
That was something I've only ever seen us do and it was great, rapturous and generous applause that once acknowledged turned 'aahhs' and thousands of 'Nescafe handshakes'
Dave Seaman was for me always the best for taking it, always got extra stick for his Bluenose days but used to play up to it and have a laugh. Bloody good keeper as well. They've had some decent keepers down the years that have hardly played for them and been out the door the minute anyone noticed they were any good.
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I don't like it. We have always attacked the Holte second half. I used to love cheering the away keeper as he approached the old Holte for the second half only to boo loudly when he acknowledged us. Great banter. Stick with tradition.
That was something I've only ever seen us do and it was great, rapturous and generous applause that once acknowledged turned 'aahhs' and thousands of 'Nescafe handshakes'
Dave Seaman was for me always the best for taking it, always got extra stick for his Bluenose days but used to play up to it and have a laugh. Bloody good keeper as well. They've had some decent keepers down the years that have hardly played for them and been out the door the minute anyone noticed they were any good.
Yes, he always had a bit of humour about him almost to the point he liked the attention/notoriety. It would have had more of an effect on his game if we just ignored him. These window adverts he's currently 'starring' in are beginning to grate though.
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I don't like it. We have always attacked the Holte second half. I used to love cheering the away keeper as he approached the old Holte for the second half only to boo loudly when he acknowledged us. Great banter. Stick with tradition.
That was something I've only ever seen us do and it was great, rapturous and generous applause that once acknowledged turned 'aahhs' and thousands of 'Nescafe handshakes'
Dave Seaman was for me always the best for taking it, always got extra stick for his Bluenose days but used to play up to it and have a laugh. Bloody good keeper as well. They've had some decent keepers down the years that have hardly played for them and been out the door the minute anyone noticed they were any good.
Yes, he always had a bit of humour about him almost to the point he liked the attention/notoriety. It would have had more of an effect on his game if we just ignored him. These window adverts he's currently 'starring' in are beginning to grate though.
Yeah they are a bit of a pane.
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I don't like it. We have always attacked the Holte second half. I used to love cheering the away keeper as he approached the old Holte for the second half only to boo loudly when he acknowledged us. Great banter. Stick with tradition.
That was something I've only ever seen us do and it was great, rapturous and generous applause that once acknowledged turned 'aahhs' and thousands of 'Nescafe handshakes'
Dave Seaman was for me always the best for taking it, always got extra stick for his Bluenose days but used to play up to it and have a laugh. Bloody good keeper as well. They've had some decent keepers down the years that have hardly played for them and been out the door the minute anyone noticed they were any good.
Yes, he always had a bit of humour about him almost to the point he liked the attention/notoriety. It would have had more of an effect on his game if we just ignored him. These window adverts he's currently 'starring' in are beginning to grate though.
Yeah they are a bit of a pane.
... well, if you frame it like that ....
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I can see straight through adverts like that
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David Seaman in a TV ad? Bollocks!
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I don't like it. We have always attacked the Holte second half. I used to love cheering the away keeper as he approached the old Holte for the second half only to boo loudly when he acknowledged us. Great banter. Stick with tradition.
Agree with this
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I always thought O'Neill requested to swap the dugouts at around the same time we moved the away fans from the North to the Witton?
I did a quick google and it was Lambert
https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villa-i-want-my-dugout-closer-186520 (https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villa-i-want-my-dugout-closer-186520)
It certainly worked for him!...
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Bruce changed it back because he thought it was a jinx or something!
Never got that either. You'd think if we score in last minute a manager would enjoy having a gentle jog halfway down the touchline to salute the Holte.
I always got the feeling Bruce was afraid of our fans giving him shit for being ex-SHA.
I'm maybe one of the few guys who admits to being very pleased when Bruce took over. But he never seemed to be fully comfortable with being our manager.
I think he did a lot of good for us, but I do wonder if he saw it as a bet to nothing, because his exit line ("I managed Birmingham, they were never going to embrace me") was already set.
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That was something I've only ever seen us do and it was great, rapturous and generous applause that once acknowledged turned 'aahhs' and thousands of 'Nescafe handshakes'
You being a youngster Lee I can understand what you said but it started at OT with Stretford End doing it and we picked it up.
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That was something I've only ever seen us do and it was great, rapturous and generous applause that once acknowledged turned 'aahhs' and thousands of 'Nescafe handshakes'
You being a youngster Lee I can understand what you said but it started at OT with Stretford End doing it and we picked it up.
I hadn’t seen it before going to Leeds in the 80s and their kop end all clapping Nigel Spink - he clapped back and got pelters!