Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: IFWaters on February 09, 2021, 07:57:24 PM
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Found this little gem .....
https://www.sportbible.com/football/football-news-top-10s-the-40-biggest-clubs-in-england-have-been-named-and-ranked-20201206
And apparently we come in .....10th !!!
BEHIND ..... Wolves !!!!
And laughably ahead of West Brom in 12th and SHA in 19th (who are ahead of Forest and Derby - both league winners)
To me the 20 biggest clubs in England are, in this order ...
1. Liverpool
2. Man Utd
3. Arsenal
4. Spurs
5. Man City
6. Chelsea
7. Newcastle
8. Villa
9. Everton
10. Leeds
11. West Ham
12. Forest
13. Sheff Weds
14. Sunderland
15. Leicester
16. West Brom
17. Derby
18. Wolves
19. Sheff Utd
20 Southampton
I have to say my list is based on what feels right, over the last 40+ years. I know a Brighton fan might have an issue with it but they just havent served their time yet
If I had the time, I would work it out based on 5 criteria :
1. Trophy Cabinet - with more points for league title than domestic cup - basically your pedigree & history - Ranked
2. Stadium Size + Average Attendance - you have to have a big ground & fill it - Ranked
3. Turnover - who is the biggest business - Ranked
4. Squad quality - either by using Transfermarkt squad value or total caps - Ranked
5. League Form - Average league place in last 5 years - Ranked
Add up the totals and whoever gets the lowest is first, just like the article does it. I havent the rime to do it but I think we would be about 7th or 8th. Any other offers on who the top 20 or top 10 are ?
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Below Newcastle? I think not.
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Well, one person's opinion of a stats database is their opinion. In the immortal words of our legendary pub landlord "Not news!"
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Tom Fox And The False Narratives - African Car Reverser
(Album of the Year 2013)
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Below Newcastle? I think not.
If there was ever a club thats used the Premier League years to reinvent itself then its Newcastle.
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Below Newcastle? I think not.
If there was ever a club thats used the Premier League years to reinvent itself then its Newcastle.
I looked up All Fart No Shit in the Oxford English Dictionary just now and it just had the Newcastle United crest next to it. No words.
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When someone posts a shit article for clicks, best not to give them the clicks.
FWIW:
Liverpool and Man U are about joint first, followed by Arsenal.
Depressingly, Chelsea have probably overtaken us and Man City are close. They will do when they've won the European Cup.
Tottenham and Everton are behind us but not by a million miles.
Nobody else comes near to us.
As for our "rivals":
Wolves are bigger than West Brom but there isn't much in it.
Both of them are much bigger than Blose.
Blose are bigger than Coventry but there isn't much in it.
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Below Newcastle? I think not.
If there was ever a club thats used the Premier League years to reinvent itself then its Newcastle.
A number of clubs reinvented themselves as 'big clubs' around the start of the Premier league. Leeds, Newcastle, Blackburn. All of which were newly promoted, had momentum and were challenging the established clubs and spending lots of cash. You could include us too after our disappointing mid eighties period. Spurs and Everton struggled around that time so they were less appealing to the top players. Liverpool and Arsenal were the big two for a while and then Manure got their act together. Money talks obviously and at various stages the clubs splashing the cash were us to some extent under Big Ron and Newcastle. Sheffield Wednesday had a decent side and splashed the cash for a while too. Then suddenly Chelsea became bigger than they ever had been before. You could probably throw Boro into that mix for a short time too.
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7th -11th make no sence whatsoever.
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Leeds and Newcastle get the attendances. Well they do now. When at university I went to St James Park a few times 1992/3. Can’t remember the first game but there were only 17000 there and it was 6 quid when Villa was 7. Then there was the FA Cup game against Bournemouth. Half price because game was abandoned the previous week. Capacity 30000 attendance 26000.
Then Kevin Keegan and all of a sudden they all come out of the woodwork.
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'The Mighty Reds YNWA' and Manure due to their trophy winning history and global fan base are the big 2 as far as I am concerned.
Citeh and Chelsea have paid cash to try for big club status but like class you can not buy it.
After that there really is not much in it between us Spuds Everton Arse, I have never really considered Newcastle as a big club because they have done virtually nothing in the last 50 years despite having a big ground and decent support.
We are finally challenging those 7 again.
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When someone posts a shit article for clicks, best not to give them the clicks.
FWIW:
Liverpool and Man U are about joint first, followed by Arsenal.
Depressingly, Chelsea have probably overtaken us and Man City are close. They will do when they've won the European Cup.
Tottenham and Everton are behind us but not by a million miles.
Nobody else comes near to us.
As for our "rivals":
Wolves are bigger than West Brom but there isn't much in it.
Both of them are much bigger than Blose.
Blose are bigger than Coventry but there isn't much in it.
This pretty much nails it. There is a massive difference that people miss between size of club and current quality of team. I would have us in 5th at the minute behind Liverpool, United, Arsenal and Chelsea.
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When someone posts a shit article for clicks, best not to give them the clicks.
FWIW:
Liverpool and Man U are about joint first, followed by Arsenal.
Depressingly, Chelsea have probably overtaken us and Man City are close. They will do when they've won the European Cup.
Tottenham and Everton are behind us but not by a million miles.
Nobody else comes near to us.
As for our "rivals":
Wolves are bigger than West Brom but there isn't much in it.
Both of them are much bigger than Blose.
Blose are bigger than Coventry but there isn't much in it.
Yeah, this is it for me too. Generally judge it on simply - if they suddenly had no money at all, what's the best level of players they could attract? For me, that puts Man Utd & Liverpool at the top of the tree with Arsenal a little way behind. I reckon it's then probably us & Spurs about level, then Everton. There's a big drop off after them.
Not having it that either Chelsea or Manchester City would at all relevant to us if they weren't funded to a ridiculous degree. They'd be like Blackburn post-Jack Walker. Hang around the top for a few seasons, but over time work themselves back down to their natural level at yo-yo sides between the top 2 divisions.
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I really think we need to stop being so sniffy about Chelski and Oil Barons FC as we've just had £400m pumped into us over the last 2 seasons, we're hardly whiter than white when it comes to having rich owners!
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I'd split into groups of approximately equal-sized clubs. Have to start with Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal who all have big historic support and have won trophies in pretty much every decade in living memory.
1. Manchester United
2. Liverpool
3. Arsenal
Then I'd place us Spurs and Chelsea. Spurs are a well supported team that have not had the sustained success in my lifetime that the three above had, but are still a famous and well followed team. Chelsea I have a similar opinion to John Gregory on, but they have been winning a lot for two decades now and have a big fan base even if it is 'Johnny come lately'.
4. Spurs
5. Villa
6. Chelsea
The next batch are historic well-supported teams, that haven't won much other than in fits and bursts. Man City are now knocking on the door of the group above, but I didn't put them there as despite spunking ludicrous amounts of money they are still not as well followed as the group above. Take the cash away and they would be banging up and down the divisions again.
7. Newcastle
8. Man City
9. Sheffield Wednesday
10. Leeds
11. Everton
The rest are all among the better supported but don't win much and never will teams.
12. Derby County
13. Sunderland
14. Nottingham Forest
15. Wolves
16. WBA
17. Southampton
18. West Ham
19. Sheffield United
20. Norwich City
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Interesting placement of Newcastle and Sheff Weds as opposed to Sunderland. Newcastle have won nowt for centuries. Sunderland won something more recently than toon.
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The only big thing about Newcastle is the ground. On every other measure, absolutely not. Bigger than us, you're having an absolute laugh.
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Everton behind Newcastle, Wednesday and Leeds? Really?
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I would probably place Everton and ManC in the second group, and drop Chelsea a group. "A big 7".
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Everton and us are neck and neckkkkh.
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Everton and us are neck and neckkkkh.
There's probably no two teams more evenly matched in terms of history, support and achievements.
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Everton and us are neck and neckkkkh.
There's probably no two teams more evenly matched in terms of history, support and achievements.
We have a much larger support than Everton, who are very much in Liverpools shadow both in Liverpool and even more so in surrounding towns like St Helens and Runcorn. Villa by contrast have the largest following in Birmingham and a large following in many other smaller towns in the Midlands like Worcester, Stratford, Shrewsbury, Telford, Redditch etc.
Agree that in terms of trophies and achievements we are very close, but in terms of support we are a long way ahead.
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Leeds and Newcastle get the attendances. Well they do now. When at university I went to St James Park a few times 1992/3. Can’t remember the first game but there were only 17000 there and it was 6 quid when Villa was 7. Then there was the FA Cup game against Bournemouth. Half price because game was abandoned the previous week. Capacity 30000 attendance 26000.
Then Kevin Keegan and all of a sudden they all come out of the woodwork.
Absolutely correct between 1978 and 1992 they spent 9 seasons outside the top flight. I think they may well be heading for those kind of attendances again, when the fans are allowed back, they hate Ashley so much.
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Everton and us are neck and neckkkkh.
There's probably no two teams more evenly matched in terms of history, support and achievements.
We have a much larger support than Everton, who are very much in Liverpools shadow both in Liverpool and even more so in surrounding towns like St Helens and Runcorn. Villa by contrast have the largest following in Birmingham and a large following in many other smaller towns in the Midlands like Worcester, Stratford, Shrewsbury, Telford, Redditch etc.
Agree that in terms of trophies and achievements we are very close, but in terms of support we are a long way ahead.
The fact the we’ve won the big one in Europe just edges us above them
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Everton and us are neck and neckkkkh.
There's probably no two teams more evenly matched in terms of history, support and achievements.
We have a much larger support than Everton, who are very much in Liverpools shadow both in Liverpool and even more so in surrounding towns like St Helens and Runcorn. Villa by contrast have the largest following in Birmingham and a large following in many other smaller towns in the Midlands like Worcester, Stratford, Shrewsbury, Telford, Redditch etc.
Agree that in terms of trophies and achievements we are very close, but in terms of support we are a long way ahead.
The fact the we’ve won the big one in Europe just edges us above them
Think they might have won it themselves had they not been banned from Europe due to their naughty neighbors antics the year before. They had a great team that season.
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A lot of people seem to buy the Leedscastle hype.
Newcastle bigger than Villa 🤣🤣🤣
Poxy Leeds, fewer seasons in the top flight than Small Heath, bigger than Everton 🤣🤣🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣🤣
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I really think we need to stop being so sniffy about Chelski and Oil Barons FC as we've just had £400m pumped into us over the last 2 seasons, we're hardly whiter than white when it comes to having rich owners!
I'm always 'sniffy' about Chelski in a way that I've never been about say Man City. Pre Abramovich they were a classless shitty cinderella club who used to attract premadonna players and won next to fuck all. Their ground was a pile of crap and you were so far from the pitch you could hardly see and I hated going there.
Then an oil soaked Russian twat who rode on the back of the break up of the USSR allying himself with some pretty unsavoury political characters making billions with some unusually creative deals which wouldn't stand up to anything more than cursory scrutiny decided to buy a club I doubt he had ever heard of before because they just happened to be situated in the right part of London town. All this while the majority of ordinary russians missed out and suffered in new ways in the post communist breakup as the western adopted buzzwords of perestroika and glasnost proved a false dawn.
The Chelski that grew out of this has come to epitomise all the worst aspects and excesses of modern premier league football and the disgusting monster cash cow aided and abetted by the likes of Sky.
I still hate going to Chelski, yes you can see the pitch OK but no matter how many trophies they buy it was, is, and always will remain the most classless souless shit house of a football club in existence.
Sniffy ? Too right I am. The very mention of their name and I need to put on my face mask.
I'm not overly keen on Man City either I admit.
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I really think we need to stop being so sniffy about Chelski and Oil Barons FC as we've just had £400m pumped into us over the last 2 seasons, we're hardly whiter than white when it comes to having rich owners!
I'm always 'sniffy' about Chelski in a way that I've never been about say Man City. Pre Abramovich they were a classless shitty cinderella club who used to attract premadonna players and won next to fuck all. Their ground was a pile of crap and you were so far from the pitch you could hardly see and I hated going there.
Then an oil soaked Russian twat who rode on the back of the break up of the USSR allying himself with some pretty unsavoury political characters making billions with some unusually creative deals which wouldn't stand up to anything more than cursory scrutiny decided to buy a club I doubt he had ever heard of before because they just happened to be situated in the right part of London town. All this while the majority of ordinary russians missed out and suffered in new ways in the post communist breakup as the western adopted buzzwords of perestroika and glasnost proved a false dawn.
The Chelski that grew out of this has come to epitomise all the worst aspects and excesses of modern premier league football and the disgusting monster cash cow aided and abetted by the likes of Sky.
I still hate going to Chelski, yes you can see the pitch OK but no matter how many trophies they buy it was, is, and always will remain the most classless souless shit house of a football club in existence.
Sniffy ? Too right I am. The very mention of their name and I need to put on my face mask.
I'm not overly keen on Man City either I admit.
I'm guessing this is not penned by john terry
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we are Aston Villa - we are the biggest. Sod the rest.
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We were the Chelsea of the time when we won many of our trophies. It makes us a big club. But in the same way it should not diminish what Chelsea have achieved over the past 15+ years. Abramovich bought them in 2003 and changed the landscape forever. They are now a legitimately big club. In the same way now Man City. It's almost immaterial that neither really have the history before the PL. The fact is they have both won loads of trophies between them. If you ask anyone (not Villa related) in their 20's and some even in their early 30's we are not a big club. Doesn't mean that is accurate. But our last trophy was 1996 and we won the league 40 years ago.
We deserve our history to be respected because we earned it through tangible achievement. As do clubs that won things more recently.
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7th -11th make no sence whatsoever.
That’s a shite place anyway for a Club like us. We need to be in the top 5.
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Why’s everyone so concerned as to how big we are. We are Villa that’s my only thought
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7th -11th make no sence whatsoever.
That’s a shite place anyway for a Club like us. We need to be in the top 5.
To be fair weve won pretty much nothing in the last 25 yrs, so think 7th is fair on us.
But weve been a damn sight more successful than Newcastle since their last trophy win 70odd years back
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Wolves and Newcastle appear to be above us largely based on the big disparity of scores for "trophies won in the last 20 years". Everton and ourselves have been given 48, a poor score, Wolves 10, a good score, and Newcastle 17, a decent sore.
Unless I've missed something they must be counting lower division championship wins or something because as far as I know Wolves haven't won anything of note for about 40 years and Newcastle for around 50 years. If they're counting those what about our bloody intertoto and palyoff trophy?
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Wolves and Newcastle appear to be above us largely based on the big disparity of scores for "trophies won in the last 20 years". Everton and ourselves have been given 48, a poor score, Wolves 10, a good score, and Newcastle 17, a decent sore.
Unless I've missed something they must be counting lower division championship wins or something because as far as I know Wolves haven't won anything of note for about 40 years and Newcastle for around 50 years. If they're counting those what about our bloody intertoto and palyoff trophy?
Don't forget The Peace Cup.
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7th -11th make no sence whatsoever.
That’s a shite place anyway for a Club like us. We need to be in the top 5.
To be fair weve won pretty much nothing in the last 25 yrs, so think 7th is fair on us.
But weve been a damn sight more successful than Newcastle since their last trophy win 70odd years back
Yes it’s not winning trophies the reason for my comment. We really need to get serious about both cups and in the short term make them our prime target and not worrying about League position.
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We really are serious about the cups. We played in the final of one less than a year ago.
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Yes but losing to Stoke City was not good and we should have made more of an issue to postpone the FA cup tie instead of giving Liverpool a virtual walk over.
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Sorry but we are no longer a big club other than regionally. Go outside and we have pockets of fans everywhere in the globe but nothing compared to some, which correlates to trophies won. Plus we had a lost decade which has only just finished (6 months or so ago)
ManU
Liverpool
Arsenal
Chelsea
Citeh
Spuds
Then I'd put us in with Everton and Newcastle and West Ham
Ahead of Wolves, Derby, Forest, Leicester (big recent climber) - painfully I'd probably put them in that rank for Midlands teams with Sunderland, Leeds (nigh on 2 decades lost), Wednesday
Then Southampton, Norwich and Brighton representing the provinces.
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West Ham and Newcastle aren't in the 1, 2, 3 with a club like us or Everton.
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The biggest clubs are in the Champions League, the next level are regulars in the Premier League. We're not in the first, we're not yet back in the second. Cups are irrelevant. The best indicator of size is to walk around a non-football town and count the replica shirts, something we've never done particularly well at.
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The biggest clubs are in the Champions League, the next level are regulars in the Premier League. We're not in the first, we're not yet back in the second. Cups are irrelevant. The best indicator of size is to walk around a non-football town and count the replica shirts, something we've never done particularly well at.
And worryingly (and annoyingly) I see UEFA are trying to stitch up Champs League membership with a points system should any of their elite not make the top 4 domestically! In other words if we finished 4th and Arse finished 7th they would take our place because of their CL points history....... it’s just corrupt
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The biggest clubs are in the Champions League, the next level are regulars in the Premier League. We're not in the first, we're not yet back in the second. Cups are irrelevant. The best indicator of size is to walk around a non-football town and count the replica shirts, something we've never done particularly well at.
And worryingly (and annoyingly) I see UEFA are trying to stitch up Champs League membership with a points system should any of their elite not make the top 4 domestically! In other words if we finished 4th and Arse finished 7th they would take our place because of their CL points history....... it’s just corrupt
I feel like it won't work though, as we have a top 6 at least that won't want to miss out to each other. We'll see though. The principle is abominable.
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The point is though you cannot take it for granted as we have. Ellis let us drift as slowly the game modernised and then totally passed us by. With a couple of seasons under Lerner apart, we turned into a shambles and were deservedly relegated.
The professionalism we see at every level of the club now, is night and day from at any point in the clubs hisotry. The problem is, we've given traditionally smaller clubs a 20 year head start. With the financial backing we have now, this is for the first time in a long time where the ambition of this club is unchecked.
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The point is though you cannot take it for granted as we have. Ellis let us drift as slowly the game modernised and then totally passed us by. With a couple of seasons under Lerner apart, we turned into a shambles and were deservedly relegated.
The professionalism we see at every level of the club now, is night and day from at any point in the clubs hisotry. The problem is, we've given traditionally smaller clubs a 20 year head start. With the financial backing we have now, this is for the first time in a long time where the ambition of this club is unchecked.
Totally agree Ads
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I could (and have) write chapter and verse on how we wasted the period from 1990-2002, when we had the whole of middle England to ourselves and did nothing to capitalise on it. We'd have coaches arriving from all over the country full of kids who wanted to watch a Premier League game, yet we'd never try to get them back. There were tens of thousands of people who would call themselves Villa fans but never came to a match and we didn't encourage them to. You couldn't get a Villa shirt in Worcester, you couldn't buy a scarf in Stratford. I used to spend more time chasing up lapsed H&V subscriptions than Villa did with non-renewed season tickets. Our marketing team were more bothered about clamping down on unofficial souvenirs than selling our own - I've said before about how the biggest seller of Villa gear outside Birmingham was taken to court for inadvertently stocking something that was borderline illegal, so he stopped taking anything from the club. We were a corner shop when other clubs were a chain of supermarkets. The only time this changed was the first couple of years of the Lerner regime, and they soon gave up. NSWE have got twenty years to make up, and only then will we be able to say we're a top howevermanyitis club.
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I could (and have) write chapter and verse on how we wasted the period from 1990-2002, when we had the whole of middle England to ourselves and did nothing to capitalise on it. We'd have coaches arriving from all over the country full of kids who wanted to watch a Premier League game, yet we'd never try to get them back. There were tens of thousands of people who would call themselves Villa fans but never came to a match and we didn't encourage them to. You couldn't get a Villa shirt in Worcester, you couldn't buy a scarf in Stratford. I used to spend more time chasing up lapsed H&V subscriptions than Villa did with non-renewed season tickets. Our marketing team were more bothered about clamping down on unofficial souvenirs than selling our own - I've said before about how the biggest seller of Villa gear outside Birmingham was taken to court for inadvertently stocking something that was borderline illegal, so he stopped taking anything from the club. We were a corner shop when other clubs were a chain of supermarkets. The only time this changed was the first couple of years of the Lerner regime, and they soon gave up. NSWE have got twenty years to make up, and only then will we be able to say we're a top howevermanyitis club.
Agree with all that. You then have to add in the FPP rules, which mean that to a certain extent the ladder has been pulled up, making it doubly hard.
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And we've allowed in that time the Noses, Albion and Wolves to finish above us at varying points, that was the extent of the decay.
I do genuinely feel the rot has been stopped though, but as Risso alludes to, the cracks for you to find purchase in the elite are finite. But, again, with Chelsea in perpetual turmoil and Arsenal being ran poorly, it shows that crashing through the barrier can be done.
If we had an ounce of this professionalism in 1992, what would we have achieved? Or rather, what wouldn't we have achieved.
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Or 1990, or 1996, or 1998, or 2006. No club ever gets onto the launchpad without taking off as often as we do.
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I think Leicester are a good example of what can be achieved. I appreciate many will say it was a fluke but my god have they made the most of it.
This club now (I would argue this was always the case) has far more potential than Leicester will ever have. For the first time in my lifetime it feels like we are being run professionally from top to bottom. Even under Ron Saunders and then Tony Barton there was in fighting and a lack of a strategy.
The FFP point is not to be ignored but to be taken into account of how we move to the next level.
Anyway I'm enjoying the journey and can't wait to get back to Villa Park.
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Or 1990, or 1996, or 1998, or 2006. No club ever gets onto the launchpad without taking off as often as we do.
Absolutely this. When the opportunity has been there we have flopped about instead of going for the jugular.
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Ellis left us in good nick financially, alas it was a decade at least too late.
Gregory and O'Neil had money as much as anyone else in the League for a couple of years and were eerily similar in terms of achievement, or under achievement as we see in hindsight.
We are just back after a lost decade and need to establish ourselves as a top half club in the next few years and makesure wer give the bigger clubs 3 or 4 beatings across a season so we stay in pundits and viewers minds
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Ellis left us in good nick financially,
How do you work that out?
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Ellis left us in good nick financially,
How do you work that out?
Ellis left himself in good nick financially, we were flogging the Serpentine and refusing staff claiming cups of coffee on expenses.
Mr Aston Villa indeed. I'm sorry, I know he's passed on and we're in great place now, but I'm still incredibly bitter towards him.
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Ellis could have sold for more but accepted a lower offer from Lerner as he believed Lerner had the best interests of the club at heart.
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Ellis could have sold for more but accepted a lower offer from Lerner as he believed Lerner had the best interests of the club at heart.
...said Ellis.
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Ellis could have sold for more but accepted a lower offer from Lerner as he believed Lerner had the best interests of the club at heart.
...said Ellis.
The egotistical corner shop owner !
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Ellis left us in good nick financially, alas it was a decade at least too late.
Gregory and O'Neil had money as much as anyone else in the League for a couple of years and were eerily similar in terms of achievement, or under achievement as we see in hindsight.
We are just back after a lost decade and need to establish ourselves as a top half club in the next few years and makesure wer give the bigger clubs 3 or 4 beatings across a season so we stay in pundits and viewers minds
Elis left us in such good financial nick that we had, as LeeB said, to sell the Serpentine car park, to a community venture that never traded and had Dave Ismay on its board.
Gregory spent money that came in via flotation (another rip-roaring success for shareholders, provided you owned something like 35% of them) and the NTL deal. By the time Sir Graham returned we were back to being skint again and it was around this time that the England team refused to train at Bodymoor because it wasn't good enough.
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I haven't read the thread, or the piece that inspired it, so I'm obviously incredibly well-qualified to comment. It's a fool's errand to try to quantify how 'big' football clubs are. Everyone can feel it but nobody can measure it. Safe to say that Chelsea and West Ham ought to be nowhere in the conversation.
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Ellis did not leave us in good nick financially. Revenue had reduced in the last season he was in charge. In addition in the previous 13 years since the formation of the Premier League, he had failed to grow both the commercial and matchday income in relation to our rivals sitting on his arse whilst the TV money rolled in which meant the ability to invest money in facilities like VP or Bodymoor or heaven forbid the squad was limited. He left us with no debt but light years behind other clubs in all aspects of how a professional sports team should be run and operated. The corner shop mentality and being the biggest club in the Midlands were enough for him,
Mr Aston Villa my arse, complete and utter charlatan and the very definition of a small time thinking jumped up travel agent.
Yes I am still bitter.
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I can't remember where i saw it but the most accurate criticism I've ever seen of Ellis was the difference in non-playing staff between us and the sky clubs, we were still largely run like a team where the fanbase lived within 10miles of the ground when the teams being run properly were selling merchandise all over the world and had huge staffing of vast commercial teams to hoover up as much money as possible.
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There are so many things that could be said about that time, and so many people still think he's Mr Aston Villa, a man who loved the club and did so much for us.
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There are so many things that could be said about that time, and so many people still think he's Mr Aston Villa, a man who loved the club and did so much for us.
it’s pretty amazing that this myth of this generous patriarchal figurehead still exists, even on here.