Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Match Threads & Player Ratings => Topic started by: Monty on February 03, 2021, 10:15:06 PM
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As Richie Benaud might've put it, 'ohhhh dear.'
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Worst performance this season.
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Yeah, horrible from start to finish. About as far from that first half at Burnley as it's possible to get.
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Man City didn't dominate us like that. Pathetic.
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Crappy, tippy-tappy, wanky, lacklustre football. Martinez, Barkley, McGinn and Luiz all need to be dropped for Arsenal.
Atrocious, garbage - 1/10.
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Poor all over the pitch tonight, terrible passing, movement, control. West Ham deserved the win, even bloody Lingard scored twice.
I hope we put in a performance better than this against Arsenal.
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Was the game plan to make sendo look like Nostradamus?
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Still two games in hand.Everything to play for.Time to stand up and be counted.
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I pretty much expected this. Disappointed but I had an instinct that West Ham would want it more than us tonight.
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West Ham did a job on us and too many lethargic displays. The side needs more energy and freshening up.
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Moyes got it bang on and completely nullified us.
We looked exhausted, no energy, no movement, mistakes from our most consistent players.
Putting it into their box repeatedly was never going to work.
And then when we finally score and should put pressure on them we conceed a goal that wouldn't of looked out of place in that 0-3 to Wigan.
Worst performance of the season by a mile.
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A hard watch, off the pace everywhere and they played better then I've seen them do for years. Watkins was the only one to emerge with any credit.
Not the end of the world, but a couple of players are not doing it so changes a must for Sat. We look jaded so the break can't come quick enough.
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Less Villa players turned at Villa Park tonight than fans!!
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The team looks knackered. They've 'earned' an off night, so I struggle to moan too much, however that was a shocking performance really - every one of the team played at a much lower level than were used to (Watkins being the pick).
Dean needs to change the team a bit for the Arsenal game or we will lose that too. Putting El Ghazi back in didn't work at all.
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El Ghazi, Barkley, Martinez all very poor. Even Watkins - his goal aside - kept gifting the ball back to them.
Not good enough. Most disappointed in the lack of desire and urgency. WHU are nothing special and we made them (especially Lingard) look like world-beaters.
Sanson looked decent in the limited time he was on the pitch.
We go again !
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West Ham were the far better team on the night and deserved all three points, we deserved and got nothing.
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Thought we were dreadful to a man tonight. We didn’t look up for it, we were sloppy, lacked energy and had no precision. The midfield were non-existent. It never augurs well when Jack starts dropping deep to get the back.
Ollie - lovely goal, but cost us two goals with woeful control.
Slightly worrying we’ve conceded 3 in two of the last three games. We need a bit of a reset, because we’ve lost a bit of our edge.
On the plus side it’s unlikely they’ll play that bad as a collective again.
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That was horrible. All round appalling.
This is where i wish we hadn’t let Conor go, or Fred. The bench is lightweight and we need to make serious changes for Arsenal as half the team dropped themselves tonight.
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We were awful. I was surprised he did not bring the new lad on earlier. Something had to change as the midfield were awful all night. We looked completely disjointed and whatever we tried did not work. Sometimes you just have to try something different if only to make the opposition think a bit.
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Worst performance by fucking miles all season. Absolutely utterly dominated.
I don't buy tiredness. It was weak and fucking sloppy, half hearted shite.
El Ghazi put in thr worst 45 minutes I've seen from a Villa player in years. Totally unacceptable.
Luiz, weak as fuck. Ollie, dire first touch. Konsa all at sea. Full backs hardly got up the pitch as we were that far off them. Martinez wants fucking lamping for two desperate attempts to stop shots from Lingard. Barkely weak as piss and anonymous off the ball.
Grealish double marked, bit did we find space?
How many times have we seen a Moyes team out fight us over the years? Fucking embarrassing.
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I am going to put it out there, not just on tonight, I don’t think Mcguinn can cut it consistently as a starter in this division. Especially if we want to progress up it.
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Crappy, tippy-tappy, wanky, lacklustre football. Martinez, Barkley, McGinn and Luiz all need to be dropped for Arsenal.
Atrocious, garbage - 1/10.
I'm coming back on this site tomorrow when people stop posting bollocks.
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Crappy, tippy-tappy, wanky, lacklustre football. Martinez, Barkley, McGinn and Luiz all need to be dropped for Arsenal.
Atrocious, garbage - 1/10.
You’d drop Emi? Come on - he had a bad game, but he’s been great for us.
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Way too many tired players due to lack of rotation. Emi had his worst game of his Villa life. Grealish a yard slower than usual but no one to pass to yet he still created a goal. El goalsie was back to el garbage with 45 minutes of nothing at all. SJM was way off the pace. Barkley was a waste of space. Cash had no one to pass to. Generally no one moving or showing for the ball. 5 games in 14 days has taken its toll.
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Awful. We’re in a poor run of form now with Burnley, Southampton and this game. Hope we can sort it out quickly as at the moment we seem to have lost our mojo.
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Every time you think we are about to push on we manage to take a step backwards.
They came and did a number on us and we had no answer.
If they are double marking Jack then who is taking the opportunity, it took us long enough to work out that Jack should not play up against the 2 right backs.
There were some shocking performances, the worst were Barkley and Ollie.
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Didn't see the game but the midfield were lacklustre/knackered v Soton.Two games every week taking its toll ?Time to rotate for a short period ?
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We have an improving Arsenal, an improving Brighton, a decent Leicester and dirty Leeds. It is not going to get any easier. I hope that we bounce back quickly. West Ham simply wanted it more than we did tonight. The rails came off and the usually reliable players had a poor game collectively. I suppose this is what it's like being a side on the up, good bits and bad bits. I do question if this is as good as it gets under Dean. From time to time we lack that physicality and should have a tougher couple of players in midfield but Dean prefers ball players instead. He's been more right than wrong so far this season but I wish we had 'mix it' options.
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It was awful. West Ham have provided others with a template for how to stop us, which is a concern. But I don't think we helped ourselves, every player was well off the pace.
I suppose any team is going to throw in a, stinker sooner or later. In a way, it is the West Ham away game plus both Burnley games that have done us more damage. We played well but barely took a point.
Forget it, move on. But consider a few changes for Sunday Deano.
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Poorest display since Leeds. Should have made his 2nd and 3rd substitutions as soon as the West Ham 2nd goal went in, i.e. in the 56th minute not in the 69th and 80th minutes . Barkley and Luiz were pitiful with McGinn not far behind them. The West Ham midfield had complete control. Martinez at fault with both Lingard goals, but he at least has credit in the bank to use. Has to be changes on Saturday,
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That could have been any one of half a dozen home games from last season pre lockdown. Midfield trio of Barkley Luiz and McGinn needs a shake up.
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Struggle to get back into games when we go a goal behind.
West Ham looked stronger and fitter, and certainly were very well organised.
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Crappy, tippy-tappy, wanky, lacklustre football. Martinez, Barkley, McGinn and Luiz all need to be dropped for Arsenal.
Atrocious, garbage - 1/10.
I'm coming back on this site tomorrow when people stop posting bollocks.
You're not British Airways, you don't need to announce your departure.
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Cant complain about the result, they were simply better than us all over the park. Bullied us a bit. On teh bright side all of our players seem to have an off day together so they cant all do it again soon, can they?
Also whilst WHU were very good, the issues should be easy to fix, we looked like we lacked fluidity because we took too many touches and too much time to move the ball, that meant that the incredible amount of heavy first touches from the recieving player turned the ball over to WHU who broke at as at speed.
Look at the last goal, came from a poor touch from Ollie, that was a snapshot of the whole game, mistake after mistake from us, good direct play from them.
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Thank god we’ve got the transfer window to find some options to give Ollie a rest....
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Shite and got exactly what we deserved. Changes needed next game otherwise repeat of this. Night all.
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Sometimes there will be games where individuals have an off day, and the team as a whole may struggle. Looking at the individual performances tonight though, I'm finding it difficult to spot an individual (save for Mings) who hasn't just put in his worst performance of the season.
Given the individual and collective lethargy of the first half, singling out El Ghazi for the half time hook didn't strike me as particularly clever management.
That was atrocious, and totally unacceptable.
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Got to change up the midfield - whether it’s tiredness, form or both there needs to be some rotation.
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Thank goodness we will not play teams in claret and blue again this season.
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It was poor from the kick off.
Barkley had a poor game on and off the ball (also he could have slid in front of Lingard's first ), Martinez had a poor game, McGinn and Luiz were below par again. It was hard to find anything positive apart from a well worked goal.
We were good in December when actually Barkley didn't play and we played inverted wingers. El Ghazi doesn't play well on the right and was poor tonight, but only had about 3 minutes on the left.
The players looked tired after the 5 matches in 2 weeks but that's where Smith needs to have better game management and use rotation better.
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Watkins goal the positive. Difficult team to play against.
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Can’t complain, we got what the performance deserved.
Seems every time we have chance to break into the top few or make a statement we dig up a pish performance. A win would have put us 5th, 5 behind Liverpool and 6 behind Leicester with two games in hand.
Also seems every time a player hasn’t scored or played for yonks, a game against Villa turns him into Neymessinaldo, just for a day.
I think we’ve also seen the last few games why Barkley has never quite cut it at Chelsea or England– he’s either 9 out of 10 or 2 out of 10, not much in between.
And Martinez got two hands to both Lingard goals and didn’t keep them out – I reckon Nyland would have saved both.
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Ollie doesn't need a rest.
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Need to start with Sanson v Arsenal and get on the front foot like the 1st half at Burnley. No David Luiz or Leno for them which may help but we have to move the ball quicker and improve on the final ball. Certainly need to compete in midfield as Spam totally dominated us in that area tonight. One of Olly's better games, almost 2 1st half & very unlucky with the 1st half curler. Great ball from Jack for the goal & great finish. The same combination almost worked again just afterwards then we concede the 3rd to kill the game typical us. Roll on Saturday as need to get back on track and quickly. Have to find a way to stop Saka/ Pepe & Lacazette as still dangerous on their day.
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They were very good tonight, we were rubbish.
Let's do it to Arsenal on Saturday like we did last year.
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Crappy, tippy-tappy, wanky, lacklustre football. Martinez, Barkley, McGinn and Luiz all need to be dropped for Arsenal.
Atrocious, garbage - 1/10.
You’d drop Emi? Come on - he had a bad game, but he’s been great for us.
One bad game? You must've missed his horror show against Burnley. Yes, I'd drop him - Heaton is an excellent keeper.
Barkley > Ramsey
McGinn > Sanson
Luiz > Nakamba
The team has gone stale and it needs freshening up, immediately.
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It was just so easy for them tonight, they didn't have to break sweat at any point in the match.
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Ollie doesn't need a rest.
I thought he played well (again), certainly as he was isolated for much of the time.
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Collectively poor. Squad rotation please, Smith.
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That midfield tonight looked dreadfully ponderous, the polar opposite of the Burnley first half.
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Fucking rancid display. Most disappointing thing was they doubled up on Jack, yet we totally failed to take advantage. When Jack finally switched sides, he created a goal. Hopefully we'll learn from that.
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Just seen the third goal again. Absolutely abysmal from Martinez, more or less threw it in.
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There were some shocking performances, the worst were Barkley and Ollie.
Ollie scored and hit the post in one of our worst performances. He was constantly isolated and had barely any service, name me a prem striker who would have done more than him tonight in that team
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That midfield tonight looked dreadfully ponderous, the polar opposite of the Burnley first half.
Barkley and McGinn both look overweight and unfit, I've had it with McGinn to be honest, not good enough.
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Given the individual and collective lethargy of the first half, singling out El Ghazi for the half time hook didn't strike me as particularly clever management.
I dont know, El Ghazi didn't put a foot right, it was a very, very poor poor half.
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Watching their goals, absolute shambles , Mings Luiz ffs.
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Ollie miscontrolling two when Martinez could have thrown his fucking cap on them, doesn't mean Ollie is tired. He's not. He was sharp and scored and could have had more. He had absolutely nobody between him and Mings tonight.
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Given the individual and collective lethargy of the first half, singling out El Ghazi for the half time hook didn't strike me as particularly clever management.
I dont know, El Ghazi didn't put a foot right, it was a very, very poor poor half.
I agree, just about the one thing Smith got right to be honest.
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It’s already been said but by a long way our worst performance of the season. Not one player, including Jack played poorly. For me it’s down to fatigue, too many games in such a short space of time. I just glad we’ve been injury free with the amount of games we’ve played. Hopefully there’s not the usual scapegoating cos they were all equally bad tonight
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Douglas looks to have lost his spark a bit - clearly needs a break.
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Just watching the goals again. For their second goal Luiz's awareness and positioning were laughable. Got drawn to the ball even though we had defenders closing the player down. Made the pass to Lingard way too easy. Just one small error out of the many I could mention. Awful performance that we must not and can not repeat. Bad day at the office. Chance to redeem themselves on Saturday. Conversely West Ham performed out of their skin.
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Conceeding 3 goals in 45 minutes to These and Burnley is piss poor. I dont think we have a single point when we have gone behind this season, that is a mentality thing and needs fixing asap.
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Nice to see everyone turning on the whole team after one bad performance.
It was wank but it's also an exception. We're still learning. We bounced back from the bad run back in October and we'll probably do so again.
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Just seen the third goal again. Absolutely abysmal from Martinez, more or less threw it in.
Yup but he makes an uncharacteristic mistake and its a goal and he's slaughtered, others make 15-20 and stay on for 80 mins.
Magnificent season, poor half.
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We've played 5 games in the space of a couple of weeks, off the back of a number of players having had covid. We looked every bit like it.
It's an unusual set of circumstances and I don't think anyone should be judged too harshly.
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
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We lost a game lads, some of what I’m reading is absolute nonsense, especially the Hourihane comment - get real ffs.
We have pulled up trees to be where we are, they’ll be some big fucking bumps along the way, but got to keep the faith and not resort to over reactionary bullshit.
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Nice to see everyone turning on the whole team after one bad performance.
It was wank but it's also an exception. We're still learning. We bounced back from the bad run back in October and we'll probably do so again.
We haven't been in great form for a while now. Chucked it away against Burnley, did badly but nicked it against Southampton. Concerning.
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El Ghazi, Barkley and Luiz on the bench for the weekend. Ramsey, Bertie and Morgan in.
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It was smart the way Moyes pinned Jack down - they were very well organised down our left.
I thought Watkins had a good game overall but he visibly tired and his touch got poorer. Nice goal though.
Barkley needs to be left out to get Jack back in the middle where he can drift into more space. Luiz rested for Sanson.
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Sometimes there will be games where individuals have an off day, and the team as a whole may struggle. Looking at the individual performances tonight though, I'm finding it difficult to spot an individual (save for Mings) who hasn't just put in his worst performance of the season.
Given the individual and collective lethargy of the first half, singling out El Ghazi for the half time hook didn't strike me as particularly clever management.
That was atrocious, and totally unacceptable.
Is that not what we’ve been asking of the management?? Making early substitutions??
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Well that was fucking shit. We weren't at the races. Ah well, on to Arsenal!
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Well that was a game too far for this starting xi. We just didn't get going at all at credit to West Ham they bullied us for the first half. Started a bit better 2nd but soon ran out of ideas. They completely stifled us of time and space. I was really impressed with them.
On the other hand I can't really think of a player that had a had decent game for us - most had their worst performances of the season all at once. We looked hopeless all across the pitch. Couldn't get hold of the ball, poor composure when we did have it and got caught in possession constantly. One to forget but the warning signs are there - need to freshen things up a bit more.
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Our worst performance of the season by a mile. Other than the goal, we did nothing right at all.
I'm not exactly sure what changes I'd make but dropping Martinez isn't one if them. That would just be very silly.
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
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It was just so easy for them tonight, they didn't have to break sweat at any point in the match.
I know what you mean, but actually West Ham won because of the great effort and sweat they put in.
They harried us in twos and threes with lots of energy and closed us down in midfield and in defence. The contrast when they had the ball was marked. We looked as if we had no drive or energy.
Just as we outplayed them in November, they did the same on us but with the result as well.
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We are a work in progress, there will be ups and downs. Let’s not judge them too harshly.
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Also notable we've lost as many at home as away and by bigger margins. We push forward more at home and are vulnerable to teams that break quickly. Leeds, Southampton, Spam and Brighton did us on breakaways and in most cases the the scorer had acres of room.
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I'm not exactly sure what changes I'd make but dropping Martinez isn't one if them. That would just be very silly.
I'm putting it down to people finishing dry January in a big way.
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
If you say so. You didn;t see the error he made on Saturday then? How odd.
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
Do you do anything else other than have a go at other fans?
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We are currently the premier league version of dean smiths brentford.
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We are a work in progress, there will be ups and downs. Let’s not judge them too harshly.
100% correct.
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Are we seriously having this conversation. He’s been one of our best players and kept us in the game on Saturday.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
If you say so. You didn;t see the error he made on Saturday then? How odd.
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I dont think we are turning on the team after one bad half. I think we can all see that the players are just knackered after 5 games in 14 days. The last 3 games we have been poor and that's not because the players are crap, just tired. This is what the squad is for not just injuries and suspensions. To prevent this kind of performance from happening too often.
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
Do you do anything else other than have a go at other fans?
Yeah, he could have had a go at the players too.
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
Martinez has been great for us. Tonight wasn't his greatest night but he will save us more points this season for sure.
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
Do you do anything else other than have a go at other fans?
Whilst you can say what you like on here without fear of sanction. Every time we get beat you are like a fly round shit pal
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Are we seriously having this conversation. He’s been one of our best players and kept us in the game on Saturday.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
If you say so. You didn;t see the error he made on Saturday then? How odd.
I'm expressing an opinion, you happen to disagree. I'm sure you'll get over it with a bit of therapy.
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Note that the BT commentators are being far less harsh, half time they reckon we shaded it and full time that it could have gone either way.
Not the way I saw it but there you go.
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We are a work in progress, there will be ups and downs. Let’s not judge them too harshly.
100% correct.
Im hoping we improve once this playing twice a week spell is over. It’s too much unless you have a tremendous squad.
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For all the goodwill and progress Smith has achieved, he has picked up one of MON's bad habits - a reluctance to rotate his squad, preferring to stick with his first choice 11. He didn't react to Burnley changing the game, we got lucky on Saturday, and tonight was arguably our poorest home performance of his reign.
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Can somebody teach The_ads how to use the quote button?
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Are we seriously having this conversation. He’s been one of our best players and kept us in the game on Saturday.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
If you say so. You didn;t see the error he made on Saturday then? How odd.
I'm expressing an opinion, you happen to disagree. I'm sure you'll get over it with a bit of therapy.
And I'm sure you won't say anything else like that.
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Are we once more heading into another duff smith run?
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A bit annoying that our record of conceding goals against any old donkey who happens to be contracted to Man U still applies when they're on loan to someone else. ☹
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Please be civil.
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Disappointing night. Probably worst performance of the season over 90 minutes. We're still doing far better than a lot of us expected but maybe the talk of Europe should be put on hold.
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We were crap all over the pitch, gave stupid goals away, made plenty of mistakes and the passing and positional play went awry everywhere.
Roll on Saturday.
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Are we seriously having this conversation. He’s been one of our best players and kept us in the game on Saturday.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
If you say so. You didn;t see the error he made on Saturday then? How odd.
I'm expressing an opinion, you happen to disagree. I'm sure you'll get over it with a bit of therapy.
I don’t like mental health slurs - you should retract immediately
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
Do you do anything else other than have a go at other fans?
Whilst you can say what you like on here without fear of sanction. Every time we get beat you are like a fly round shit pal
Somewhat ironic you're calling out Risso for having a go at your comment when you've pretty much told me you can't believe I'm expressing my opinion on here.
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Are we once more heading into another duff smith run?
Our last 18 Premier League games played in Feb:
W1 D1 L16
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Are we seriously having this conversation. He’s been one of our best players and kept us in the game on Saturday.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
If you say so. You didn;t see the error he made on Saturday then? How odd.
I'm expressing an opinion, you happen to disagree. I'm sure you'll get over it with a bit of therapy.
And I'm sure you won't say anything else like that.
Why ?
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
Do you do anything else other than have a go at other fans?
Whilst you can say what you like on here without fear of sanction. Every time we get beat you are like a fly round shit pal
As legion said, please desist.
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For all the goodwill and progress Smith has achieved, he has picked up one of MON's bad habits - a reluctance to rotate his squad, preferring to stick with his first choice 11. He didn't react to Burnley changing the game, we got lucky on Saturday, and tonight was arguably our poorest home performance of his reign.
Southampton, Leicester and Man City last season. Albion in the year we came up. Four examples it's taken me 30 seconds to remember. It was crap tonight but let's not go nuts.
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Nice to see everyone turning on the whole team after one bad performance.
One bad performance? We've won twice in 7 league matches.
We are out of form and on the decline because we don't rotate. Smith is constantly starting out of form players and we have no plan b. If we concede first, we lose.
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We are a work in progress, there will be ups and downs. Let’s not judge them too harshly.
That's about where I am too. I was angrier after the Burnley game as we'd thrown that away despite being warned.
I'd like to see Traore Sansom and Trez start Saturday.
Relieved Mings didn't crock himself with that goal line clearance.
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Are we once more heading into another duff smith run?
Our last 18 Premier League games played in Feb:
W1 D1 L16
February, it's the new March!
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Well that was fucking shit. We weren't at the races. Ah well, on to Arsenal!
This probably sums it up for me. So disappointing because we’ve been so good for the majority of the season. You’d hope that they all wouldn’t have a collective off day on the same day again.
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Are we seriously having this conversation. He’s been one of our best players and kept us in the game on Saturday.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
If you say so. You didn;t see the error he made on Saturday then? How odd.
I'm expressing an opinion, you happen to disagree. I'm sure you'll get over it with a bit of therapy.
I don’t like mental health slurs - you should retract immediately
Oh dearie dearie me. Are you serious?
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We are going to remain erratic.
We looked like a tired team who have played too many games in too short a time, having had the disruption of a major Covid outbreak.
I know it's all about opinions but there's some bed shitting going on on the level of Wolves fans here.
Yeah it was poor tonight. It happens. We're not suddenly champions league contenders but nor are we relegation candidates.
We are a mid to upper table side, which after last season seems a massive improvement.
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Probably gonna stay off this thread for a bit. Can’t be dealing with the drama. See you all in the off topic!
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Midfield was non-existent tonight & we were second best in almost every contest. I thought the defence was OK. But there was no protection in front of them.
We only have one way of playing & if it isn't working we're in trouble. Then Dean doesn't change it. We can't approach every game in the same way.
West Ham have had as many games as us in the past 2 weeks. They simply worked harder, were better organised & were more physical than us.
McGinn is simply not a defensive midfielder.
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We've played 5 games in the space of a couple of weeks, off the back of a number of players having had covid. We looked every bit like it.
It's an unusual set of circumstances and I don't think anyone should be judged too harshly.
Maybe Smith should have started some of the players that have barely played then, just an idea?
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Disappointing night. Probably worst performance of the season over 90 minutes. We're still doing far better than a lot of us expected but maybe the talk of Europe should be put on hold.
Talk of Champions League is probably getting more fanciful by the week. But Europe remains a real possibility. I think Liverpool and Man United have both put in more rubbish performances than we have this season and nobody will be surprised if they both qualify.
One of our biggest weaknesses is our inability to change a game that is going against us, as evidenced by our record of one point all season from games in which the opposition have taken the lead.
Our bench must be partially to blame. Literally no defenders are worried about the possibility of Davis coming on. I can't help feeling we have missed an opportunity to add a striker during the transfer window, and it seems like everyone other than Dean Smith could see that.
That moan aside, it is still more or less the same bunch of players that got us into contention for a top six place, with some of our best performances this century. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that they prove good enough to keep us in contention, with a few more amazing performances along the way.
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Are we seriously having this conversation. He’s been one of our best players and kept us in the game on Saturday.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
If you say so. You didn;t see the error he made on Saturday then? How odd.
I'm expressing an opinion, you happen to disagree. I'm sure you'll get over it with a bit of therapy.
What a shitty thing to say.
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Note that the BT commentators are being far less harsh, half time they reckon we shaded it and full time that it could have gone either way.
Not the way I saw it but there you go.
We were crap tonight, but crap in the context of where we are this season, and what we've seen from this team already this season. To any casual observer, yes, West Ham deserved to win, but we weren't "terrible" or "outclassed" - we just feel that way because we know - and have seen - how much better this side can perform (including against this same team).
I can only hope the management are looking to the lessons learned here, rather than just writing it off as a bad day at the office. West Ham did a very good job of nullifying our attacking threat, and it's not something I'd like other teams to learn from. Fatigue certainly played a part, but Moyes set them up to stifle us, and it worked.
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Are we once more heading into another duff smith run?
Our last 18 Premier League games played in Feb:
W1 D1 L16
Yeah I heard this stat earlier. It's very strange isn't it? I think someone once called football "a fanny old game"
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Are we seriously having this conversation. He’s been one of our best players and kept us in the game on Saturday.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
If you say so. You didn;t see the error he made on Saturday then? How odd.
I'm expressing an opinion, you happen to disagree. I'm sure you'll get over it with a bit of therapy.
I don’t like mental health slurs - you should retract immediately
Oh dearie dearie me. Are you serious?
From someone that’s been ‘ in therapy’ as you so eloquently put it - yes, I am serious
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We were terrible and outclassed though.
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Some credit needs to go to West Ham as well. They didn't give us any time on the ball and they obviously did their homework on us.
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Unpopular opinion I know I've felt for a while that Martinez isn't that great a shot stopper especially if it's put in the corners or down low. Brilliant on crosses and commanding the box and defence but there's been a few I thought other keepers would have got to.
Are we seriously having this conversation. He’s been one of our best players and kept us in the game on Saturday.
Isn’t it so very convenient that tonight becomes the night you air that when Saturday he was absolutely brilliant. How odd
If you say so. You didn;t see the error he made on Saturday then? How odd.
I'm expressing an opinion, you happen to disagree. I'm sure you'll get over it with a bit of therapy.
What a shitty thing to say.
I don't see why. Can you explain?
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https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/12208050/debutant-lingard-inspires-hammers-to-victory
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Midfield was non-existent tonight & we were second best in almost every contest. I thought the defence was OK. But there was no protection in front of them.
We only have one way of playing & if it isn't working we're in trouble. Then Dean doesn't change it. We can't approach every game in the same way.
West Ham have had as many games as us in the past 2 weeks. They simply worked harder, were better organised & were more physical than us.
McGinn is simply not a defensive midfielder.
To my knowledge though they haven’t had squad members recovering from COVID 19 have they
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A very quick turnaround with a 12.30 kick off on Saturday. Got to make changes. Sanson for McGinn or Luiz take your pick. Ramsey for Barkley. Davies for Watkins. Okay I made the last one up.
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Bit of a lesson in pragmatism. West Ham were clearly the better team, and it was a good performance, especially defensively, but it wasn’t like we were beaten by scintillating football. Still feel we need a bit more nous etc. to stay in games like this while we aren’t at our free flowing best (Saturday feels like the anomaly in this case).
Easy to say in hindsight, but it was a bit like watching our midfield from last season. Not enough spark and tempo going forward and too far apart/open defensively.
Shouldn’t over react. We’ve seen how good we can be in lots of games this season - this is what happens when the performance level of too many players drops off.
It’s probably only the second game this season when we have put in a poor performance. I’m not excusing the performance, but it happens occasionally - we’ve seen Liverpool throw in two in the last two weeks for example.
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Nice to see everyone turning on the whole team after one bad performance.
One bad performance? We've won twice in 7 league matches.
We are out of form and on the decline because we don't rotate. Smith is constantly starting out of form players and we have no plan b. If we concede first, we lose.
I said bad performance, not result. Those games include narrow loss to Man Utd to a dodgy penalty, a post Covid game against a Man City team who have won 12 on the bounce but needed a dodgy decision to break us down, a stupid defeat against Burnley when we played some great football and a draw at Chelsea.
Tonight was the only one of those five where we were shite.
I don't see why people can't see a bit of perspective, we had an awful year last season but have consistently outplayed teams this year. When we couldn't outplay teams, we still looked a threat. We were crap tonight but this team has earned our support.
And the post calling for Martinez to be dropped in ridiculous.
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We were poor unarguably, but were still in the game for the majority of it. We've come a long way.
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Midfield was non-existent tonight & we were second best in almost every contest. I thought the defence was OK. But there was no protection in front of them.
We only have one way of playing & if it isn't working we're in trouble. Then Dean doesn't change it. We can't approach every game in the same way.
West Ham have had as many games as us in the past 2 weeks. They simply worked harder, were better organised & were more physical than us.
McGinn is simply not a defensive midfielder.
i am not sure Luiz is either, neither player did what Rice did for them
Moyes spotted that and had Lingard run off the back of them.
We were carrying Barkley and AEG so no wonder we were being over run, Smith did nothing to stop the gaping hole in midfield.
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I think we were a little unlucky to be the first team a fired-up Lingard had played all year. Whatever you think about him, he has undoubted talent but we had no recent game history to prepare for him playing for West Ham tonight. That element of surprise really gave them the attacking impetus to go with their hard working aggressive style that we did know about.
For me, McGinn and Luiz's lack of physical stature does put us at a disadvantage at times i.e when you're up against strong beanpoles like Soucek and Rice. McGinn's first instinct is always either to attempt a probing first time ball (which often comes off) or to shield the ball from an opponent as if he knows he's more likely to lose a 50/50.
Barkley is equally frustrating for different reasons. Big boned and aggressive he may be but his passing is often blasted or just wayward and he still doesn't work hard enough off the ball. He was dispossessed too often tonight too. He looked surprised and pissed off at being subbed. He has no right to give it the Big I Am, if he thinks he's doing little old Vila a favour I wouldn't be too sad to see him go back based on a mixed bag of performances so far. He's probably still not fully fit but with those hamstrings, I'm not sure he ever will be for 10+ games in a row.
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That was a dreadful performance. We looked tired and flat.
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Some credit needs to go to West Ham as well. They didn't give us any time on the ball and they obviously did their homework on us.
Blasphemy.
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We were terrible and outclassed though.
I feel the same way, but I can see how any neutral fans wouldn't think that way - beyond us deserving to lose (which you can obviously do without being outclassed).
By this seasons standards, we were absolutely dire. But I would also say West Ham actually played worse during our loss at their place than we did today (even though they won that day too) - we hammered them and lost that day. I don't feel like they 'hammered' us today, just that we were shit.
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Someone mentioned McGinn not being a defensive midfielder and I have to agree. You can argue it's worked for us because we've looked a very good side and are having a decent season but I do miss him buzzing round the pitch making a nuciance of himself and chipping in with goals.
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They haven't played the same 11 players in each of the last 5 games either. We should have rotated more. Nakamba should have played more, Ramsey should have played more, el ghazi should have played more. The problem is after those its very slim pickings off the bench.
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We were terrible and outclassed though.
I feel the same way, but I can see how any neutral fans wouldn't think that way - beyond us deserving to lose (which you can obviously do without being outclassed).
By this seasons standards, we were absolutely dire. But I would also say West Ham actually played worse during our loss at their place than we did today (even though they won that day too) - we hammered them and lost that day. I don't feel like they 'hammered' us today, just that we were shit.
They had 10 shots on target out of 20 shots in total, that's back to last season's sort of performances where we routinely gave that many chances away, and routinely got battered.
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We've played 5 games in the space of a couple of weeks, off the back of a number of players having had covid. We looked every bit like it.
It's an unusual set of circumstances and I don't think anyone should be judged too harshly.
Maybe Smith should have started some of the players that have barely played then, just an idea?
Maybe without covid they'd have been fine, it's just that it's ended up on the last couple of games that it's caught up with them.
I dunno. I do agree with you there, but to me it seems like the sort of thing that would've been fine under normal circumstances.
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Some credit needs to go to West Ham as well. They didn't give us any time on the ball and they obviously did their homework on us.
Their game plan consisted of containing Jack Grealish down their right hand side. I'm puzzled as to why we couldn't work that out and move him into a different position.
It was an off night for us tonight. Even then, I thought we picked up a bit when Traore and Trezeguet came on and I did fancy us to maybe get a late equaliser after Watkins scored, but the third killed us off.
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That was a dreadful performance. We looked tired and flat.
Yep. Had our warning first half where they cut through us too easily. Did actually make a change for once at half time but overall our shape didn't change and we paid the price even if all three goals were preventable.
Would've still been an interesting finish if Emi didn't chuck one in right after we scored though.
It was certainly flat and we need to freshen it up for Saturday even if that means we drop a big hitter or two.
West Ham didn't start Fornals or Bowen who've been first choice players all season so Moyes knows when to take out a key player if they need a rest so to improve further Dean needs to learn that skill aswell.
Would be starting Sanson and Trez on Saturday.
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Someone mentioned McGinn not being a defensive midfielder and I have to agree. You can argue it's worked for us because we've looked a very good side and are having a decent season but I do miss him buzzing round the pitch making a nuciance of himself and chipping in with goals.
I agree Clampy, if anything we'd be better off with him in Barkley's role, and Nakamba or Ramsey next to Luiz/Sanson. He's not been very good, but he's not in his preferred position, unlike Barkley who has no excuses.
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Credit where credit is due. West Ham did their homework and worked harder than us. Soucek and Coufal were magnificent. They deserved victory.
We have tonnes of smooth but we also need a bit of rough.
A reality check for all of us. We are a club heading in the right direction but still have a lot of room for improvement.
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I wouldn't be unhappy to see us sign two central midfielders in the summer, three if Doug goes. They're all good players, but if it's not going for them they have no answers.
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i am not sure Luiz is either, neither player did what Rice did for them
Moyes spotted that and had Lingard run off the back of them.
We were carrying Barkley and AEG so no wonder we were being over run, Smith did nothing to stop the gaping hole in midfield.
I think it was pretty simple, the first touch was just poor all through the team, we played the ball, moved into position as we normally do but the recieving player lost it and we looked out of shape in a way we haven't often this year.
I agree about Rice, every time I see him he looks fantastic but so many dont see it.
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A poor performance and result, but we've seen how good this team can be. The enforced covid break and so many games since has not helped. I think midfield lost that game for us tonight and perhaps some rotation would have been useful in the starting line-up. Barkley's goal aside vs Soton he's been poor. I think Sanson needs to start instead of him. Luiz too has lost form so Nakamba ahould be in. El Ghazi starting was a strange one for me. We had no drive in midfield. Ollie worked tirelessly and scored a great goal. Mings played well too. Emi had a night to forget. When diving for the ball I'd rather he catch it than parry it. Jack too had an off-night He needs to work on his dead ball deliveries. He was much better on the right, so this should have happened sooner. 32 points after 20 games bearing in mind we only finished with 35 points in total last season is evidence of progress, which shouldn't be ignored after tonight's game. UTV! F-ck the spammers!
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I wouldn't be unhappy to see us sign two central midfielders in the summer, three if Doug goes. They're all good players, but if it's not going for them they have no answers.
I'd prefer more options up front.
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I realize it’s shit that we lost tonight but I am refusing to get worked up about this. Look how far we have come. What we have accomplished and I know there is a lot more to come. I’m still confident we will finish around 8th and to do that we will have ups and downs between now and the end of the season. But that’s some improvement from last year and just two years again when we were fucking around in the Championship. Defeats will always be shit. I’m not going to just suggest we just brush this feeling off. But in the grand scheme of things I’m still looking forward to the balance of the season. We will still have more good games than bad.
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I think if they hadn't got the third we might have sneaked a draw as the momentum was momentarily with us. Problem is they would probably have reverted to sitting deep where they had contained us quite easily - it was as soon as they moved up a bit we ripped them open with our one decent move of the game.
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Two years ago we needed a 10 match winning run to get into the Championship play offs.Last year an escape from an impossible situation.On this forum the consensus was a mid table finish would be good.
We are 9th with games in hand,having lost unluckily to the top 2,Citeh and Utd,having beaten the 3rd ,Leicester.I think we did ok against Liverpool who are in 4th.It's a good first team.
We have changed the recruitment system ,upgraded the academy in staff and players.
We are in a good place and better times to come.
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Their game plan consisted of containing Jack Grealish down their right hand side. I'm puzzled as to why we couldn't work that out and move him into a different position.
We did, he went wide right for the latter stages of first half, swapped sides a bit in second then had a free role when Trez came on.
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Nice to see everyone turning on the whole team after one bad performance.
One bad performance? We've won twice in 7 league matches.
We are out of form and on the decline because we don't rotate. Smith is constantly starting out of form players and we have no plan b. If we concede first, we lose.
Being out of form and on the decline are two different things. On the decline is what we had been from the moment O’Neil walked out min 2010 (and perhaps a bit before), to the period Smith took over and got us up.
Yes we’re on an average run of form at best at the moment, but that is in the context of us playing some of the best football I’ve seen us play since BFRs second season at the club.
I’m gutted we lost tonight as it was a real opportunity to cement us in the race for the top 6, but I’m more gutted by the performance. There was a collective bad first touch going out throughout the team, including Grealish. It’s a race to the bottom picking who was worse, but Dougie was missing in action, at least McGinn ran around. Nothing Barcklay did came off, Even Targett whose been brilliant this season, had a shocking 1st half. El Ghazi simply had to come off at half time, I felt sorry for him he was that bad. Generally, they all looked like they’d been on a stag doo.
I do think whilst this team had done great this season, freshening it up a bit wouldn’t hurt. Traore for all his lack of tracking back, is much more of a threat going forward that El Ghazi, might be worth playing him on the left and putting Trez back on the right and Grealish in the centre, leaving Barclay on the bench. If Sanson comes in, it would be for Dougie rather than McGinn for me.
Terrible mistake from Martinez, but for me he has a load of brownie points built up already.
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Good job we aren’t going to qualify for the CL. We always lose on Wednesdays.
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What a really horrid performance. We were terrible all over the pitch. Our passing and first touch was dreadful from pretty much the lot of them and we just didn't get going. We actually managed to slow the game right down every time we had the ball. I'm sure they will all get a bit of a rocket.
Anyway, it's not been often we have witnessed this in quite a while, so put it to bed and move on. I'd be tempted to start Sansom and drop Ross. He looked the most shocking of the lot out there.
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We were terrible and outclassed though.
I feel the same way, but I can see how any neutral fans wouldn't think that way - beyond us deserving to lose (which you can obviously do without being outclassed).
By this seasons standards, we were absolutely dire. But I would also say West Ham actually played worse during our loss at their place than we did today (even though they won that day too) - we hammered them and lost that day. I don't feel like they 'hammered' us today, just that we were shit.
They had 10 shots on target out of 20 shots in total, that's back to last season's sort of performances where we routinely gave that many chances away, and routinely got battered.
I just think we are better suited to hitting teams on the break when there is a bit of space. When it's up to us to try and break teams down, we end up getting hit on the break ourselves. There were a number of times tonight where we lost possession in their half and within a couple of passes, they were getting a shot off.
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I don’t think we need to leap to long-term conclusions. But we were toss tonight and we’ve got to cut out the casualness that cost us the game against Burnley, where for the most part we were good, and that dragged us down tonight. Wholesale changes aren’t required - the mention of dropping Emi for one horrible half is daft. But Dean does need to start using the squad better. A couple of changes in the midfield for Saturday please. We need to get the energy, snap and hunger back.
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It's rare that a poster can come out with clangers like 'drop Martinez' and 'we're a team in decline' in the same night.
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Already 2-0 down when I started watching. Nice finish by Watkins, but they didn’t look on it tonight from what I saw. Next.
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Smith should've got a couple more in to bolster the squad with so many games coming up. Dare I say Lingard on loan? Also, Hause is out for 4 to 6 weeks with a foot injury. The heavy schedule caught up with us big time tonight.
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I dread to think what would have been said if it was mooted we were after Lingaard, goes to show how little Twitter based ManUtd fans know, he was wonderful.
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I don’t think we need to leap to long-term conclusions. But we were toss tonight and we’ve got to cut out the casualness that cost us the game against Burnley, where for the most part we were good, and that dragged us down tonight. Wholesale changes aren’t required - the mention of dropping Emi for one horrible half is daft. But Dean does need to start using the squad better. A couple of changes in the midfield for Saturday please. We need to get the energy, snap and hunger back.
Definitely, I’d be tempted to play Sansom or even Ramsey. Maybe even Traore and Trez/AEG on either flank and drop Barkley.
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There are plenty of very average Man U forwards who have looked great against us. One good game in his last two seasons proves nothing.
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Lingard probably won't score again all season. Lol
He has always worked hard without the ball, it was why Mourinho liked him.
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Very very poor tonight. The midfield needs freshening up. Luiz, McGinn and Barkley have all been hit and miss lately. El Ghazi played himself out of contention. I'd consider Trez and Sansom coming in and possibly Nakamba.
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There are plenty of very average Man U forwards who have looked great against us. One good game in his last two seasons proves nothing.
Yep, he was excellent tonight, but let's see how he does for the rest of the season.
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It's rare that a poster can come out with clangers like 'drop Martinez' and 'we're a team in decline' in the same night.
I do think some of our more reactionary posters should wait a while before piling in with comments. I've been guilty of over reacting in the past and try to keep it rational these days. As for the two you mention firstly Martinez. I've heard him described by commentators as the signing of the season and one of the best in the Premier league. One dodgy performance doesn't change a thing. He's been superb for us. Talk of dropping him already is just nonsense. And a team in decline? My word people have short memories. We've seen some scintillating football this season. We're having a bit of a mini slump but the overall trajectory of the team and the club is undoubtedly upward and bloody exciting.
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Nobody you'd take seriously has said drop him, no matter how fucking wank he was tonight.
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He's been superb, and kept lots of clean sheets that we wouldn't have without him. He was dreadful tonight though, which hopefully is just a blip. If it isn't, then we've got Heaton, which is a bit of a better position to be in than deciding between Reina and Nyland. I'm sure Martinez will be well up for the Arsenal game though.
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I don’t think we need to leap to long-term conclusions. But we were toss tonight and we’ve got to cut out the casualness that cost us the game against Burnley, where for the most part we were good, and that dragged us down tonight. Wholesale changes aren’t required - the mention of dropping Emi for one horrible half is daft. But Dean does need to start using the squad better. A couple of changes in the midfield for Saturday please. We need to get the energy, snap and hunger back.
Agree Paul. I think Barkley needs to come out of the side on Saturday and would probably push McGinn a bit further forward with Nakamba or Sanson coming in. Just a straight choice then between Trezeguet and Traore for the spot on the right.
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It was just so easy for them tonight, they didn't have to break sweat at any point in the match.
Watkins was close(ish) to getting an equaliser at 1-2. I thought we would finish strong then. Instead Martinez pushed Lingards shot into the net. With Jack running on empty we were gone then.
Terrible performance but expected given the failure to rotate the squad or use subs in recent games. We were so flat right from the off. Feel sorry for AEG (he was dreadful) as I think that might have Smith sticking to his tried and trusted even more. Big worry for me is Martinez, I thought he was very shaky at Southampton including that shot at the end. Right from the off tonight he decided to parry everything. Not composed with the ball or decisive. Pushing two shots into the net was Nyland esque. Big game against his old club coming up as his confidence will be badly hit after his showing.
Enough said about Barkley but I was distinctly unimpressed by Traore's lack of application after coming on too. Good to see Sanson get some minutes but I think he will take time to adapt to the physicality of the league. Horrible lack of organisation for their second goal, 3v2 from a free kick on edge of their box. Luiz, McGinn - where were they??
Martinez 4, Cash 5, Konsa 5, Mings 6, Targett 6, Luiz 4, McGinn 5, Barkley 2, AEG 2, Watkins 6, Jack 6. Traore 4, Trez 6, Sanson 5. Smith 4
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Crappy, tippy-tappy, wanky, lacklustre football. Martinez, Barkley, McGinn and Luiz all need to be dropped for Arsenal.
Atrocious, garbage - 1/10.
I'm coming back on this site tomorrow when people stop posting bollocks.
Agreed we had a bad game but seriously.
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I'll take the rap for this. I'm working nights in Hull. My two 'lucky' beers for tonight's game are still sat in the fridge at home. Soz.
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I'll take the rap for this. I'm working nights in Hull. My two 'lucky' beers for tonight's game are still sat in the fridge at home. Soz.
Well thanks a lot, can you bloody sort yourself out for the Arsenal game.
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I think that's the first time we've been properly turned over this season. For all the talk of the Leeds game we should have been 2-0 up before they scored.
Its gonna happen though, we are the epitome of a work in progress but moving in the right direction - considerably the right direction too. We just came up against a bunch of big ugly buggers that could play - we clearly don't like that.
Deano will be earning his dough this week though - does he really trust this squad- because I think a few are feeling the pace at the moment.
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I'll take the rap for this. I'm working nights in Hull. My two 'lucky' beers for tonight's game are still sat in the fridge at home. Soz.
Well thanks a lot, can you bloody sort yourself out for the Arsenal game.
Didn't realise we're the early game. Do I need to drink those two beforehand to reestablish the beer/footy equilibrium before then having another two luckies during the game, or would the two during suffice?
Better not risk it, I reckon. Midday start for me, then!
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McGinn needs to be further up the pitch, the same last year playing defensive midfield was very ordinary then later on he played more forward and was very good. Very poor all round we didn't handle the close marking at all well.
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well played West Ham, not sure why they had so much stick before the game, they had a better game plan, better organised and tried harder.
We had one of those games, hope that we got it out of our system.
With so many players having an off game hard to apportion blame but , El Ghazi, Barkley and Trarore closely followed by Trez need a mention.
Defiantly need some class additions, which I am sure are planned for the summer.
I never fancied Lingard but he had a cracker for them last night
O, we also need some hard bastard who stands up to being bullied off the ball
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Crappy, tippy-tappy, wanky, lacklustre football. Martinez, Barkley, McGinn and Luiz all need to be dropped for Arsenal.
Atrocious, garbage - 1/10.
I'm coming back on this site tomorrow when people stop posting bollocks.
Agreed we had a bad game but seriously.
Back in the saddle now.
First thing I read last night and needed a spell out from the site.
Apologies for the b******* reference!
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I did not see the game last night as I don't have BT
I honestly thought we would win last night but from what I can gather Moyes out tactic'd Dean
it is a strange season every team is capable of winning 3 or 4 games on the bounce and then losing the next 4 games - hopefully we will win on Saturday (but as it is another game on BT I won't be watching)
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The manager was out-tacticed and the team was out-muscled. We were shite.
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It's a funny season, our defeats have featured some stunning, not to mention surprising performances from our opponents. Lingard last night, Bamford's hat trick, Southampton scoring four from four shots and Burnley doing something similar.
I thought that was going to be tough last night but didn't imagine it would pan out as it did and despite it being arguably our worst performance of the season we weren't that far away from grabbing a point. The last few games have gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. Superb (Burnley first half) to weak and weary (Burnley second half and last night), strolling (Newcastle) to resilient but substandard (Southampton).
We are seeing a team in development and it's been said before, and however a difficult watch it was last night we should enjoy the ride. For a number of years we would be going into a game pretty much knowing that the performance will be poor, that's not the case at the moment.
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Very true, Nev.
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Morning after the night before. It was crap, the team know it, the manager knows it and we've all acknowledged it. Saturday isnt far off so I would have Marvelous back in, Trez on the right and contemplate 60 minutes for Sansom. Barkley goes, as does Traore/AEG and Luiz too as he really looks knackered, not at all himself.
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They were better than us last night. They pressed our full backs well and made it really difficult to break them down through the middle. Coufal did a really good job limiting the space Jack had available to him. We were also a bit slack in possession. I lost count of the number of times we lost the ball cheaply.
I thought when we got to half-time we would see Traore early on as El Ghazi was getting nowhere, but I don't think the defence had a particularly poor game, although Martinez will be disappointed with the third goal. It was more that we tried to play further up the field second half, but it ended up meaning we were easier to cut through on the break.
They beat us and deserved to win. It's not the end of the world. We'll be tighter against the Arsenal on the weekend.
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Last night Moyes showed the blueprint on how to beat Villa. I have not seen a team press us for so long. They really stopped us creating anything. For us I agree with some of the comments about the players, and this is where our lack of squad depth may be an issue. John and Douglas, for me, looked poor or tired or both. We were very easy to defend against. Over to you Dean to have a think about the Arsenal game, on that showing AEG, Barkley, Douglas, John could not moan if they lost their place. Maybe this is our poor run, because from the 2nd half at Burnley, the Southampton game (yes we won) and last night, we haven't played well.
But lets not get carried away, because to be in the position we are is still very good
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It worried me slightly that Coufal was so effective in stopping Jack. But that wasn't Jack at his best. Like everyone else he seemed to be running on empty. AEG's performance level was alarming he didn't just look off form he looked totally out of his depth. With hindsight it was a mistake to start him but I don't think the staff could of expected him to be so out of sorts. It kind of set the tone for me. It soon became apparent that the whole team was just not with it last night. West Ham took a firm grip on the midfield and bossed it for the whole game. West Ham are a decent team right now and Moyes got his game plan spot on in total contrast to Deano who looked for inspiration but found none. If our fanbase is anything to go by we underestimated West Ham big time. There were posters saying 4/5 nil before the game. That was never going to happen. A bad night for us and only a couple of days to prepare. They have a huge task now to put some energy back into the players because Arsenal come here smarting from the 3-0 drubbing we gave them and one thing they do have is lots of energy. Maybe time to freshen things up a bit but this team has performed superbly at times so we shouldn't be making wholesale changes. Starting with the keeper. Barring injury he has earned his place as our No1 choice. Right now I'd be happy with a draw on Saturday but who knows in this very unpredictable season.
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We didn't react quick enough to change things, but the first half was such a confidence builder for them. I'm still astounded at how absolutely abysmal El Ghazi was. He would have made the 2015/16 team embarrassed.
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We didn't react quick enough to change things, but the first half was such a confidence builder for them. I'm still astounded at how absolutely abysmal El Ghazi was. He would have made the 2015/16 team embarrassed.
He must have come close to beating Gabby's record in the Spurs game where he only touched the ball 8 times. At least Gabby completed a pass with one of those touches, El Ghazi I think didn't even manage that. Traore did more in one minute than AEG managed in 45. It's Bert's shirt to lose now. He was one of the few positives from last night.
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We didn't react quick enough to change things, but the first half was such a confidence builder for them. I'm still astounded at how absolutely abysmal El Ghazi was. He would have made the 2015/16 team embarrassed.
Agreed. AEG wasn't just poor he looked like a kid who'd won a game in a raffle. Baffling how bad he was. It could be an underlying problem that we don't know about. Hopefully just a blip and he'll be back and firing on all cylinders. Same as the rest of them.
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Tactically totally out thought last night. The most insipid performance of the season.Deano needs to have a rethink.
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Everything they did was right, everything we did was wrong. The amount of mis-placed passes, over hit passes, loose control was border line 'comical'.
We've had a few bad defeats this season but we have had moments or periods in all those games were we were on top and putting the opposition under pressure. Yesterday there was no point at which we gained the upper hand throughout the game. I'd say it was the complete performance for them.
Its probably impossible for us to be so collectively bad again (hopefully).
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According to Whoscored, El Ghazi attempted 14 passes, and only completed 7 of them.
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According to Whoscored, El Ghazi attempted 14 passes, and only completed 7 of them.
Surprised it was as many as 7, to be honest. He just wasn't at the races yesterday.
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Everything they did was right, everything we did was wrong. The amount of mis-placed passes, over hit passes, loose control was border line 'comical'.
We've had a few bad defeats this season but we have had moments or periods in all those games were we were on top and putting the opposition under pressure. Yesterday there was no point at which we gained the upper hand throughout the game. I'd say it was the complete performance for them.
Its probably impossible for us to be so collectively bad again (hopefully).
Mostly agree but there was a short spell in the middle of the first half where we could have scored three times. Watkins header, Watkins shot that hit the post and Barkley shot pulled wide. Before and after that they were on top but in an overall poor performance we did create chances. West Ham deserved to win but the fact that even when we are second best we still threaten is a crumb of encouragement.
They look a decent side, Moyes has instilled the same sort of toughness that his Everton teams had.
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Smiths achiles heel showed up again. We were lucky to go in nil- nil at half time and all Smith did was a like for like substitution.
He has got to start reacting quicker to the game situation. Look what Burnley did to us second half so Dyche and Moyes have done a number on him.
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It was 0-0 at HT.
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As bad as the pre lockdown drubbing at The Monster Munch
Abysmal
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It was 0-0 at HT.
you are right.
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As bad as the pre lockdown drubbing at The Monster Munch
Abysmal
It was no where near that bad.
My thoughts after reflecting is that yes we were poor, very poor and I do worry if Deano's lack of rotation points to a lack of faith in the squad, but need to freshen up midfield. West Ham's performance was as good as any (maybe bar Citeh) against us all season, they really were excellent. And I do wish we'd bought Benrahma - he'd be superb in our formation.
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Smiths achiles heel showed up again. We were lucky to go in nil- nil at half time and all Smith did was a like for like substitution.
He has got to start reacting quicker to the game situation. Look what Burnley did to us second half so Dyche and Moyes have done a number on him.
I'm a big fan of Dean & Co but must admit you have a fair point here. Moyes done a tactical number on us in the first half where his gameplan worked a treat. Our midfield was being over run and there was just no room for us to get anything useful going. They managed to kill the space in midfield and tie Jack up in knots. I said in the match thread that it felt like they had more players on the pitch than us. We desperately needed a plan B. We didn't have one and a like for like substitution was the best we could come up with. Dean is still learning as a top flight manager and this should serve as a warning that when you come up against a manager like Moyes with years of experience you need to be flexible and fluid in your game management. I'm sure big Sam will be licking his lips at the idea of out flanking us in our own back yard. I still have faith in Dean & Co to get it right. We're getting there.
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West Ham pressed us from the first minute and we had no response to it. Dean can moan about silly mistakes but when your midfield get bullied and are scared to take on a player, preferring to pass it back, it's more than silly mistakes. We lost our shape in central midfield, both SJM and Dougie playing higher up the pitch than normal, Jack doubled often tripled up on and in Barkley and AEG we carried two passengers.
When you give any team as much space across the pitch as we gave West Ham, you can't be that surprised they're going to hurt you. West Ham were good but we really made it very easy for them.
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As bad as the pre lockdown drubbing at The Monster Munch
Abysmal
It was no where near that bad.
My thoughts after reflecting is that yes we were poor, very poor and I do worry if Deano's lack of rotation points to a lack of faith in the squad, but need to freshen up midfield. West Ham's performance was as good as any (maybe bar Citeh) against us all season, they really were excellent. And I do wish we'd bought Benrahma - he'd be superb in our formation.
We were well below our best but come on that's just ridiculous to compare it with last March. We must come up with a plan to move Jack when the opposition successfully do what West Ham did last night. Once he moved across the front 3 we created something. We basically played with 10 men the first half and had no threat down the right which makes it easier to nullify Jack. We definitely lacked any zip to our game last night, the quick movement simply was not there.
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We've let the opposition have 20 shots each in the last two games. We can't keep on doing that.
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West Ham pressed us from the first minute and we had no response to it. Dean can moan about silly mistakes but when your midfield get bullied and are scared to take on a player, preferring to pass it back, it's more than silly mistakes. We lost our shape in central midfield, both SJM and Dougie playing higher up the pitch than normal, Jack doubled often tripled up on and in Barkley and AEG we carried two passengers.
When you give any team as much space across the pitch as we gave West Ham, you can't be that surprised they're going to hurt you. West Ham were good but we really made it very easy for them.
I did think that West Ham had a very good shape to them.
Which when we play normally is also a good shape.
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I except all the -
we should have done this we should have done that
We should have made changes earlier
We look dead on our feet, they were fitter
Martin should’ve saved two goals
Blah blah blah
It still doesn’t explain why most of our top players suddenly lost the ability to control and pass the ball like they been doing all season
I don’t except the fitness thing
I’ve been on this forum for many years and every single game we have lost and I mean every single one someone will say it’s down to fitness
We look tired we look leggy
Losing teams always look tired and leggy
AEG Should have been the freshest player on the pitch he was the worst player by far
I thought we would beat West Ham last night
I thought we were a far better team than them
They ended up being the best team we have played so far this season
I still think that the West Ham performance is as much of a one off as our performance was
I don’t think West Ham will play as well as that again for the rest of the season and I’m hoping we don’t play as bad as that again either
However we do need to get back to our normal performance levels again
This weekend hopefully
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Martinez 6.5
Exposed for the goals. Received far too many back passes And called into action too much .Warning signs were there from all the saves Martinez was making from all the strikes by west ham. Could have done better with 2nd and 3rd goals particularly the final one. Kicking distribution poor at times. Made enough saves and solid enough outside of goals conceded.
Cash 6
Put in some excellent crosses first half. Solid and disciplined up against Benrhama on the whole. Marked down for goal being conceded but like defence as a whole wasn't given midfield support. One of a few who chooses to go to Martinez for a pass. Retains possession but must seek other options. Good block and interception felt he was good with his tackling.
Konsa 5.5
Loose with some poor passing and lacked the general composure had all season. Another who fell below his high standard he met this season. Could have done more in defending at times. Too prepared to pass back to keeper though in part lack of movement by those further forward meant he chose this option
Mings 7
best of the central pair . Wonderful goal line clearance. Composed and solid on ball . Dealt with set pieces and Antonio. Support from midfield lacking
Targett 5.5
Not at his best caught out for a goal. Provided a couple of decent forrays didn't manage to link up too much. Part of the issue for a couple of the goals being conceded in his positioning and awareness as well as sloppy play. Has been excellent this season so below standards.
Luiz 5.5
Tidy but then very casual. One unbelievable bit of football summed Douglas up. Flicked over West Ham player head to go past him then tries to spin a pass with his knee to as ball comes back down to the flank and one of team mates. Didn't come off. Nearly but didn't. Wonderful and ridiculous. This occured 2nd half . I'm all for expression but seemed uneccessary losing of possession when he could have just taken the ball down. Made an excellent interception first half to prevent a goal scoring chance. Super play for a holding Midfielder. Played the deep lying role at the point fantastically well. Felt he was let down by lack of movement when in receiving the ball. Mainly comfortable in possession. Sometimes going sideways and back though didn't look to quicken the tempo. Can see why taken off but was as much McGinn as him performing disappointingly.
McGinn 5
Felt he should have been taken off for Sanson. Offered little alternative option than the predictable. First contribution was a foul. Runs away from the ball or to the side for a pass- basic positioning and not free running or intelligent as know can be. Struggled in holding midfield role
Struggle to get forward and get into box. No offer of goal threat. Box to box and up and down pitch became increasingly difficult. Led a press a few times and all for his energy not seemingly effective in closing down with the press so ineffectual on this occasion.
AEG 5
Shocking when Matty cash threw the ball to him he kicked it out trying to do a simple return pass. Quiet half . One mazy run not enough impact throughout pitch timr. Made a mess of things when switched to left given a pass in space. Grealish was rarely afforded that and would have done better but he moved to right at that time.
Barkley 6
Did not get close enough to Watkins and support him enough. Had a wonderful chance to score and was picking his game up before he was taken off. Made some nice link up but movement for him was slow at times as were the options. Would have kept on rather than McGinn struggling to be box to box but should be given a supporting role to Watkins.
Grealish 6.5
Mainly shackled by Coufal and had difficulty all match. However he played great weighted pass assist fur Watkins goal. Miscontroled ball from Barkley given on a plate for chance in box. Positive he took direct free kick and also did some unbelievable possess to Watkins. Initially had a good link up with him. However at times predictable with the blind side pass to Targett going out of play , Corner in to hand of Fabianski and the slowing down of play and moving to by line on left hand side got little reward. Maybe a bit jaded and also tried too hard with Southgate watching. Needed more team play but also to step up and be a goal threat as he lacked that all match. Not his creative best but showed glimpses of ability which makes him one of the better performers on the night.
Watkins 7
Excellent goal. The only player who looked like scoring. Handful for Dawson and Ogbonna . Wasn't afforded the support from midfield. Started off particularly well and did some great link up play and touches. Held ball up most of time however two occasions he was loose with possession led to goals for West Ham. Should have done better with a free header and unlucky when hitting post at 0-0. Thought he was the best performing Villa player
Traore 6 Showed Glimpses . Has beating of his man which would have been more useful if given ball more.
Trezeguet 6.5 brought energy. Got into the box better than most in attacking sense.
Sanson negligible . Hope he's afforded more minutes.
Generally lack of movement off the ball
Lack of support to Watkins as I felt he was the best Villa player.
Attacking and defending not the same as the high standards Villa have set ourselves
Hoping that this result gives us a reminder and lesson in what still needs further improvement and could be good for the team and Smith to better themselves once again.
Those that didn't perform which were most of them know they can play better so it's a case of pushing that and showing what capable of Vs Arsenal.
6/10.
Disappointing even if some looked tired, out of sorts , jaded. The play was sloppy , poor and work off the ball and without the ball at times resemble some of the weaker moments of last season.
Better matches to come and I do love this team and players. Quality footballers the lot of them and been so great to watch all season.
Unlucky there boys have faith going to improve on that as that's not a typical Villa showing of this season
Up the Villa.
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Smiths achiles heel showed up again. We were lucky to go in nil- nil at half time and all Smith did was a like for like substitution.
He has got to start reacting quicker to the game situation. Look what Burnley did to us second half so Dyche and Moyes have done a number on him.
I'm a big fan of Dean & Co but must admit you have a fair point here. Moyes done a tactical number on us in the first half where his gameplan worked a treat. Our midfield was being over run and there was just no room for us to get anything useful going. They managed to kill the space in midfield and tie Jack up in knots. I said in the match thread that it felt like they had more players on the pitch than us. We desperately needed a plan B. We didn't have one and a like for like substitution was the best we could come up with. Dean is still learning as a top flight manager and this should serve as a warning that when you come up against a manager like Moyes with years of experience you need to be flexible and fluid in your game management. I'm sure big Sam will be licking his lips at the idea of out flanking us in our own back yard. I still have faith in Dean & Co to get it right. We're getting there.
If you watch Dean’s interview on the website he acknowledges where he thinks he got things wrong and the changes he tried to make. The truth is that if we collectively perform as poorly as we did last night then things like tactics and formation become secondary as to why we lost the game.
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Smiths achiles heel showed up again. We were lucky to go in nil- nil at half time and all Smith did was a like for like substitution.
He has got to start reacting quicker to the game situation. Look what Burnley did to us second half so Dyche and Moyes have done a number on him.
I'm a big fan of Dean & Co but must admit you have a fair point here. Moyes done a tactical number on us in the first half where his gameplan worked a treat. Our midfield was being over run and there was just no room for us to get anything useful going. They managed to kill the space in midfield and tie Jack up in knots. I said in the match thread that it felt like they had more players on the pitch than us. We desperately needed a plan B. We didn't have one and a like for like substitution was the best we could come up with. Dean is still learning as a top flight manager and this should serve as a warning that when you come up against a manager like Moyes with years of experience you need to be flexible and fluid in your game management. I'm sure big Sam will be licking his lips at the idea of out flanking us in our own back yard. I still have faith in Dean & Co to get it right. We're getting there.
If you watch Dean’s interview on the website he acknowledges where he thinks he got things wrong and the changes he tried to make. The truth is that if we collectively perform as poorly as we did last night then things like tactics and formation become secondary as to why we lost the game.
That’s the thing that I can’t understand
It’s almost as if something else was going on that we don’t know about
I’m not saying there was
We were so bad it just looked that way
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Smiths achiles heel showed up again. We were lucky to go in nil- nil at half time and all Smith did was a like for like substitution.
He has got to start reacting quicker to the game situation. Look what Burnley did to us second half so Dyche and Moyes have done a number on him.
I'm a big fan of Dean & Co but must admit you have a fair point here. Moyes done a tactical number on us in the first half where his gameplan worked a treat. Our midfield was being over run and there was just no room for us to get anything useful going. They managed to kill the space in midfield and tie Jack up in knots. I said in the match thread that it felt like they had more players on the pitch than us. We desperately needed a plan B. We didn't have one and a like for like substitution was the best we could come up with. Dean is still learning as a top flight manager and this should serve as a warning that when you come up against a manager like Moyes with years of experience you need to be flexible and fluid in your game management. I'm sure big Sam will be licking his lips at the idea of out flanking us in our own back yard. I still have faith in Dean & Co to get it right. We're getting there.
If you watch Dean’s interview on the website he acknowledges where he thinks he got things wrong and the changes he tried to make. The truth is that if we collectively perform as poorly as we did last night then things like tactics and formation become secondary as to why we lost the game.
That’s the thing that I can’t understand
It’s almost as if something else was going on that we don’t know about
I’m not saying there was
We were so bad it just looked that way
I've never seen us play so slow, with so little drive this season. I'm putting it down to a bad day at the office but it was a strange performance
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It's been waiting to happen imo.
Now it's out the way, we can get on with getting results again.
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2nd best by many miles, painfully slow in our build ups, got what we deserved. Credit to West Ham they came with a plan and executed it well, it's the quietest Jack's being for a while, credit to Coufal for that who marked him very impressively. No doubt about it Moyes is doing a very good job there.
As poor as we were we could very nearly have snatched a point at the end, before Martinez gifted them their 3rd.
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Once it was obvious they were doubling up on Jack (ie once the teams were announced) we should have ensured the rest of the team made the extra man elsewhere play, not keep on playing thru Jack. Or, shift Jack to a different position, say 10, and upset their plans. I don’t think any of the team played well and looked grouchy which doesn’t help.
Singling individuals out doesn’t help much but disappointed with Barkley and AEG was poor. Olly looks knackered which I think contributed to his poor touches, Konsa getting angry doesn’t sit right as he’s normally so unflappable.
Disappointing, not the end of the world but we must be better on Saturday...let’s at least make it hard for Arsenal to score and that means defending from front to back.
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That’s the thing that I can’t understand
It’s almost as if something else was going on that we don’t know about
I’m not saying there was
We were so bad it just looked that way
Yeah, it happens in every walk of life.
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Once it was obvious they were doubling up on Jack (ie once the teams were announced) we should have ensured the rest of the team made the extra man elsewhere play, not keep on playing thru Jack. Or, shift Jack to a different position, say 10, and upset their plans. I don’t think any of the team played well and looked grouchy which doesn’t help.
Singling individuals out doesn’t help much but disappointed with Barkley and AEG was poor. Olly looks knackered which I think contributed to his poor touches, Konsa getting angry doesn’t sit right as he’s normally so unflappable.
Disappointing, not the end of the world but we must be better on Saturday...let’s at least make it hard for Arsenal to score and that means defending from front to back.
I made the point earlier about top managers being flexible and fluid in their game management. Surely they would of expected the doubling up on Jack and they should be working on a counter plan all week. I suppose it's quite flattering that teams are working on game plans to stifle our attacking threat but we never seem to do the same. We just seem to put out our team in our favoured formation and go for it which has worked on numerous occasions this season but not last night and we just weren't prepared for it. Whether we possess the players to make changes on the hoof is another matter. If Dean thinks we need players who are capable of doing that then he and the club must address that if we're to achieve our objectives.
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I think that if there were a criticism of Jack, God forbid, its that when he did get the ball and there were three around him, he didnt move the ball fast enough for others to take advantage of the overload possibilities elsewhere on the pitch.
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He takes crap corners too.
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We just weren't at the races. Nobody did brilliantly but they were a typical Moyes team. It's why they are where they are. That's 6 wins out of 7 isn't it? They are no mugs.
We just didn't have anyone grabbing it and taking us forward. Nothing came off apart form the goal, which was great.
AEG was awful, Barkley, Konsa wasn't on it, and McGinn and Luiz didn't click either. The disciplined shape we've played when having good results wasn't there. West Ham managed to disrupt our flow really well. Arsenal will play a different way and I've no doubt we'll look far better against them.
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We just weren't at the races. Nobody did brilliantly but they were a typical Moyes team. It's why they are where they are. That's 6 wins out of 7 isn't it? They are no mugs.
We just didn't have anyone grabbing it and taking us forward. Nothing came off apart form the goal, which was great.
AEG was awful, Barkley, Konsa wasn't on it, and McGinn and Luiz didn't click either. The disciplined shape we've played when having good results wasn't there. West Ham managed to disrupt our flow really well. Arsenal will play a different way and I've no doubt we'll look far better against them.
Think Arsenal play somewhat similar wing back set up? I havent seen them play for a while, mind. They have a physical midfield duo but Xhaka in particular is very one paced. Also missing their keeper and Luiz at the weekend, maybe Luiz not much of a loss.
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Disappointed with the performance but we move on to Arsenal and put the West Ham game behind us.
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Three things (may have been mentioned above):
- they all looked knackered.
- Barkley ain't the man to engage in a dog-fight kind of game: against a strong, doubled-up central midfield partnership of Soucek and Rice he looked lost; and his passing was piss-poor.
- we seem to adopt an unduly high line at home: this has caught us out against Leeds, Brighton and Wet Spam, and is highlighted when we are chasing the game. This seems less the case away from home.
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We need to stop being generous to sides that wear our colours. 1 point from games in which if we'd got the full 9 points, no-one would say they weren't deserved.
1 from 12, although the end bit isn't so accurate now.
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Last night was a bit of a reality check for a few ….. we have much improved on last season obviously, but there is still a long way to go.
Talk of finishing above 10th and getting European football is a bit premature, bearing in mind where we were last season.
With Smith reluctant to change things around, for whatever reason (lack of quality?) the amount of games in a short period was bound to tell at some point..... but hey its the Villa ...… just when we look like we are turning a massive corner and high placed finish is in sight we get over confident and start to anticipate wins as if all we have to do is turn up i.e. those "winnable" games. Its always been that way :)
Lets celebrate hitting 40 points and look ahead to a summer spending spree
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defensively we're either impregnable or play with the structural integrity of custard. Burnley, last night etc very much the latter.
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The age of the side and us being the baby in the league is obvious sometimes.
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The age of the side and us being the baby in the league is obvious sometimes.
As is the size of our players; we seem to struggle against big, physical teams.
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defensively we're either impregnable or play with the structural integrity of custard. Burnley, last night etc very much the latter.
Strange isn’t it? 10 clean sheets yet we’ve conceded 3 against Leeds, Burnley, West Ham and 4 against Southampton.
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Smiths achiles heel showed up again. We were lucky to go in nil- nil at half time and all Smith did was a like for like substitution.
He has got to start reacting quicker to the game situation. Look what Burnley did to us second half so Dyche and Moyes have done a number on him.
I'm a big fan of Dean & Co but must admit you have a fair point here. Moyes done a tactical number on us in the first half where his gameplan worked a treat. Our midfield was being over run and there was just no room for us to get anything useful going. They managed to kill the space in midfield and tie Jack up in knots. I said in the match thread that it felt like they had more players on the pitch than us. We desperately needed a plan B. We didn't have one and a like for like substitution was the best we could come up with. Dean is still learning as a top flight manager and this should serve as a warning that when you come up against a manager like Moyes with years of experience you need to be flexible and fluid in your game management. I'm sure big Sam will be licking his lips at the idea of out flanking us in our own back yard. I still have faith in Dean & Co to get it right. We're getting there.
If you watch Dean’s interview on the website he acknowledges where he thinks he got things wrong and the changes he tried to make. The truth is that if we collectively perform as poorly as we did last night then things like tactics and formation become secondary as to why we lost the game.
That’s the thing that I can’t understand
It’s almost as if something else was going on that we don’t know about
I’m not saying there was
We were so bad it just looked that way
I've never seen us play so slow, with so little drive this season. I'm putting it down to a bad day at the office but it was a strange performance
I thought it was a very similar performance to what we did at home to Southampton.
We just struggle a bit v these teams who can press and also got plenty of physical strength even if they don't look amazing on paper compared to a top 4 squad.
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The age of the side and us being the baby in the league is obvious sometimes.
As is the size of our players; we seem to struggle against big, physical teams.
But it wasnt set pieces that WHU dominated us last night. It was mobility really, they ran us off the pitch.
It doesnt appear if Sanson will be helping much on the physical side on the basis of his cameo last night.
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Poor all round! Move on to the next?
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El Ghazi played like a player with a grievance. That wasn't just an off day it was more of a Dwight Yorke at Everton who had been tapped up by Man U and wanted to make a point to the manager. Very strange performance indeed. Looked like a kid in a park watching a game of football instead of someone who was actually playing. Does anyone know his contract situation?
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Having had time to think about it and watched extended highlights, I think a combination of things beat us.
Firstly, West Ham were bloody good - no getting away from it; they pressed well, they stifled Jack, they broke well and they passed well, and just our luck to come up against a revitalised forgotten man of United. For all of the above I applaud Moyes.
Secondly, we were generally off the pace and off colour with poor control, poor passing, naive defending and the decision to replace Traore with El Ghazi simply didn't work (I don;t blame EG as much as some on here - he simply didn't get any service.
Thirdly, I'm a big fan of Martinez but I think all three of the goals were saveable given his recent form (even the first one I thought he was marginally slow across his line - at the same time Watkins (twice) and Barkley one both had very presentable chances whichon another day may have gone in.
Fourthly: We need to learn from what happenedand put it doen as a bad day at the office which needs to be resolved - what better time than Saturday.
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I have only just about calmed down. I thought we were shit last night. I am hoping it was just a blip in a decent season so far.
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Having had time to think about it and watched extended highlights, I think a combination of things beat us.
Firstly, West Ham were bloody good - no getting away from it; they pressed well, they stifled Jack, they broke well and they passed well, and just our luck to come up against a revitalised forgotten man of United. For all of the above I applaud Moyes.
Secondly, we were generally off the pace and off colour with poor control, poor passing, naive defending and the decision to replace Traore with El Ghazi simply didn't work (I don;t blame EG as much as some on here - he simply didn't get any service.
Thirdly, I'm a big fan of Martinez but I think all three of the goals were saveable given his recent form (even the first one I thought he was marginally slow across his line - at the same time Watkins (twice) and Barkley one both had very presentable chances whichon another day may have gone in.
Fourthly: We need to learn from what happenedand put it doen as a bad day at the office which needs to be resolved - what better time than Saturday.
thanks Martyn you summed it just about right for me.
UTV
The Doc
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I think that if there were a criticism of Jack, God forbid, its that when he did get the ball and there were three around him, he didnt move the ball fast enough for others to take advantage of the overload possibilities elsewhere on the pitch.
This. When the team sheets were handed in they should have realised what WHU tactics were going to be in relation to Jack. So why did we keep working the ball down our left flank and give it to him when there was always plenty of opponents around him? Why weren't they instructed, either before or during the game to make more use of the right hand flank? Or why wasn't Jack told that when he received the ball and immediately two or three opponents surrounded him to play the ball away from them quickly so as to isolate them and give our players more room?
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I think that if there were a criticism of Jack, God forbid, its that when he did get the ball and there were three around him, he didnt move the ball fast enough for others to take advantage of the overload possibilities elsewhere on the pitch.
This. When the team sheets were handed in they should have realised what WHU tactics were going to be in relation to Jack. So why did we keep working the ball down our left flank and give it to him when there was always plenty of opponents around him? Why weren't they instructed, either before or during the game to make more use of the right hand flank? Or why wasn't Jack told that when he received the ball and immediately two or three opponents surrounded him to play the ball away from them quickly so as to isolate them and give our players more room?
This
Dean should have moved Jack to 10 as soon as he realised what they had done and then they would have been stumped with two right backs on the pitch. Instead he left it until 20 mins to go
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I think that if there were a criticism of Jack, God forbid, its that when he did get the ball and there were three around him, he didnt move the ball fast enough for others to take advantage of the overload possibilities elsewhere on the pitch.
This. When the team sheets were handed in they should have realised what WHU tactics were going to be in relation to Jack. So why did we keep working the ball down our left flank and give it to him when there was always plenty of opponents around him? Why weren't they instructed, either before or during the game to make more use of the right hand flank? Or why wasn't Jack told that when he received the ball and immediately two or three opponents surrounded him to play the ball away from them quickly so as to isolate them and give our players more room?
I agree with your point about Jack. Once the teamsheets were in we knew WH were doubling up on Jack. Shifting the ball quickly to the right hand side was the obvious response from us. They tried and Matty Cash got in some pisitions which led to some decent crosses. But for whatever reason AEG just wasn't up to it last night so what should have been a productive right hand side just wasn't. Coupled with the form of Soucek & Rice dominating the middle of the park I'm afraid the writing was on the wall from very early on.
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I think that if there were a criticism of Jack, God forbid, its that when he did get the ball and there were three around him, he didnt move the ball fast enough for others to take advantage of the overload possibilities elsewhere on the pitch.
This. When the team sheets were handed in they should have realised what WHU tactics were going to be in relation to Jack. So why did we keep working the ball down our left flank and give it to him when there was always plenty of opponents around him? Why weren't they instructed, either before or during the game to make more use of the right hand flank? Or why wasn't Jack told that when he received the ball and immediately two or three opponents surrounded him to play the ball away from them quickly so as to isolate them and give our players more room?
I agree with your point about Jack. Once the teamsheets were in we knew WH were doubling up on Jack. Shifting the ball quickly to the right hand side was the obvious response from us. They tried and Matty Cash got in some pisitions which led to some decent crosses. But for whatever reason AEG just wasn't up to it last night so what should have been a productive right hand side just wasn't. Coupled with the form of Soucek & Rice dominating the middle of the park I'm afraid the writing was on the wall from very early on.
They seemed to have pinpointed Cash as one to press quickly when had the ball, and were doing it in 2s and 3s a lot in the first half. Got minimal support from midfield to play a quick one-two, and kept getting turning back inside and back to Konsa, which took a lot impetus out of our game.
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Yes I thought Cash had a poor half with the ball, seemed lacking in confidence as his first touch was constantly bad.
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Double marking on Jack should've meant that the rest of the team step up to the plate, 'cos someone isn't being marked! -----but they didn't!
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i am not sure Luiz is either, neither player did what Rice did for them
Moyes spotted that and had Lingard run off the back of them.
We were carrying Barkley and AEG so no wonder we were being over run, Smith did nothing to stop the gaping hole in midfield.
I think it was pretty simple, the first touch was just poor all through the team, we played the ball, moved into position as we normally do but the recieving player lost it and we looked out of shape in a way we haven't often this year.
That was exactly as I saw it. So hard to get our normal rhythm going when so many first touches went astray.
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We can't afford to have 3-4 players in the current line up off their game.
Last night we had about 7-8.
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It was weird how a lot of the players continually had such a poor first touch when that part of our game had quite emphatically improved this season
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It was weird how a lot of the players continually had such a poor first touch when that part of our game had quite emphatically improved this season
Absolutely, was really strange, almost as if they had magnets in their boots of the same polarity as the ball.
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First touch is one of things that falls off due to fatigue because you get a bit lazier with it. I think an enforced 2 week break followed by such a heavy run of games has got to the players now but thankfully we get a softer schedule for a while after tomorrow. We've got extra games to fit in but i hope they hold off on them for a few weeks still.
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For me, as soon as Deano saw the WH team-sheet, he should have told Jack to roam around up front (something he does anyway) and avoid the LHS wherever possible.
Having telegraphed his approach, Moyes would have had to change things. It's hard to see Lingard doing a defensive job on the other side!