Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dave.woodhall on December 14, 2020, 02:41:16 PM
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A few words.
http://thebirminghampress.com/2020/12/gerard-houllier-the-great-imponderable/
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"Robert Piers" on a short-term contract? - he was peerless until stranded on the quay.
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That last sentence is absolutely spot on - I wonder what would have happened if rather than his enforced retirement that Houllier had been able to move upstairs in some capacity and oversee structural change to the playing side that was sorely needed post-MON? The 10 subsequent years might have been slightly easier to bear, but at least it finally feels like we have got back to the place where the structure of the club is solid and we have a manager who is looking beyond the end of each season.
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Not all his fault but you have to wonder why there was no contingency planning if O'Neill walked out as the rumours were he was unhappy for the prior months.
In the end it always struck me as a bit of a panic appointment, there was few others available seemingly.
I always thought the DoF, Technical Development role (ha like Villa were professional enough to countenance such a structure under Lermentable) would have been good fit for him. That said if McAllister was his pick as Head Coach maybe not.
In the end i really just don't think he got Villa (McNeill and O'Leary being the other 2) as his heart laid elsewhere and not just Liverpool.
The wrong fit at the wrong time as manager for us would be how I sum it up.
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Not all his fault but you have to wonder why there was no contingency planning if O'Neill walked out as the rumours were he was unhappy for the prior months.
In the end it always struck me as a bit of a panic appointment, there was few others available seemingly.
I always thought the DoF, Technical Development role (ha like Villa were professional enough to countenance such a structure under Lermentable) would have been good fit for him. That said if McAllister was his pick as Head Coach maybe not.
In the end i really just don't think he got Villa (McNeill and O'Leary being the other 2) as his heart laid elsewhere and not just Liverpool.
The wrong fit at the wrong time as manager for us would be how I sum it up.
I wasn't a big fan of him during his spell with us. But going from him to a bloke who had just got Small Heath relegated was batshit crazy.
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Spot on Dave.
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Not all his fault but you have to wonder why there was no contingency planning if O'Neill walked out as the rumours were he was unhappy for the prior months.
In the end it always struck me as a bit of a panic appointment, there was few others available seemingly.
I always thought the DoF, Technical Development role (ha like Villa were professional enough to countenance such a structure under Lermentable) would have been good fit for him. That said if McAllister was his pick as Head Coach maybe not.
In the end i really just don't think he got Villa (McNeill and O'Leary being the other 2) as his heart laid elsewhere and not just Liverpool.
The wrong fit at the wrong time as manager for us would be how I sum it up.
I wasn't a big fan of him during his spell with us. But going from him to a bloke who had just got Small Heath relegated was batshit crazy.
Let us be polite and say the appointment of managerial replacements in terms of continuity of style, background and experience of was not a strong point of the Lerner regime.
Oh yeah Oh Eck was probably the best thing to happen to GH and Gary Mc's in terms of hindsight reputational uplift - took all of 2 weeks to reappraise them.
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I wasn't a big fan of him during his spell with us. But going from him to a bloke who had just got Small Heath relegated was batshit crazy.
I think it was General Krulak's comment "Imagine what Alex could do with Randy's backing!" (or words to that effect) that was the final nail in the coffin for any belief I had in the Lerner years.
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Fair assesment, I agree that at least it looked like we had a manager who had a plan. It should have been a safe pair of hands for a couple of years and mid-table stability.
Then Randy lost the plot completely.
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A few words.
http://thebirminghampress.com/2020/12/gerard-houllier-the-great-imponderable/
Was MON that popular by the end? Seem to recall there being quite a bit of criticism in his last months that he didn't at all take kindly too. Think we ended up with an amazing ninth place finish too!
Houllier was just a poor fit really, by the time he had to stand aside we were in big trouble. McAllister did a very good job really in getting everyone back onside for a final push up the table. It still beggars belief that Alex McLeish was seen as the solution that summer, we went in free fall from that point for a number of years.
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Quite surprised by these comments. I thought he was on to something but didn’t quite have the tools to work with - he even managed to get wee Barry looking like a worldbeater for a couple of weeks! Like some, I would love to have seen how it would have developed and I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t have endured the poisonous years we did experience.
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As I said above, I think he was so fixated with the long-term that he ignored the present. Once we went back to basics results improved.
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Quite surprised by these comments. I thought he was on to something but didn’t quite have the tools to work with - he even managed to get wee Barry looking like a worldbeater for a couple of weeks! Like some, I would love to have seen how it would have developed and I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t have endured the poisonous years we did experience.
The results weren't great and that was always a problem considering we'd finished 6th three straight years and there was still a belief when he turned up that we should be challenging for top 4 which quickly became misguided when you saw how much of a void Milner leaving had left.
10/11 is one of the strangest seasons I've ever seen from us. O'Neill then started off with 2 wins out of 3 (with the one in the middle being a 6-0 loss to promoted Newcastle) then Houllier came in middle of September and really could've done with a pre season but we know who's fault that is....anyway results and performances were o.k until we lost all our midfielders and forwards in one go around November.
Even then we outplayed Man. United with an under 20 midfield but results then did go south and we finished 2010 in the bottom 3 and fans calling for his sacking after losing at home to Sunderland. Then we signed Bent and picked up again, then start losing again and we pretty much remained in bottom 6 until the final two games against Arsenal and Liverpool. Remembered our level from previous two years, won both and somehow finished 9th.
As far as middling mid table finishes go, that certainly wasn't a boring season from start to finish!
Perhaps he'd have stayed on if the health issues hadn't occurred in April 2011 even if that meant going to DOF role with Gary Mac as head coach. I have my doubts on that working aswell but given the alternative was McLeish yeah I'd have been up for it especially if he was lining up the likes of Yohan Cabaye, Loic Remy and Adil Rami as rumoured who all proved themselves in major leagues from that point onwards for other clubs.
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O'Neill didn't start off with any wins, it was that toxic arsehole MacDonald.
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O'Neill didn't start off with any wins, it was that toxic arsehole MacDonald.
Yeah forgot to put episode after MON but despite all that turmoil we did get 6 points out of first 9 but the trauma of Newcastle probably hinted at what lay ahead long term.
One little thing I forgot that I think turned a few against GH that season was some of the comments he said after the 3-0 defeat to Liverpool mid season. I can't recall his exact words but it was a bit of a clumsy post match interview after a poor performance, we'd also lost to SHA the week before in the league cup so think he lost a decent chunk of fanbase from that period and things were always bubbling under despite some decent results later on in the season particularly from the boost of signing Darren Bent.
Of course if anyone of us could've forseen McLeish being the next up I'd imagine 99.9% would've been fully behind him wanting to get rid of Gabby, Warnock, Friedel, Dunne and Collins rather than it probably being about 60-40% at the time.
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Thought we finished 9th that season.
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I've always thought there was a great deal of revisionism about that season because of the high points - finishing 9th and beating Man City, that mad United game etc. But the negatives loom large in my memory, like chanting "you're getting sacked in the morning" while losing to Sunderland and that bloody Liverpool game. Maybe others saw in that side what I couldn't see, but I thought we were fairly meat and potatoes, and it seemed to be a half-fit Young wearing a plaster on his knee every game doing the heavy lifting.
Because of personal circumstances I have a lot of emotional investment in Houllier's time at the club so today's news gave me a little tweak in the stomach. But looking at it objectively, I don't think it would have worked for longer than we had him for. It was a panic signing, a shorthand to prove we still had some clout. But it was miles better than what we did next, when we didn't have to panic at all.
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Young still scored the odd free kick and penalty but I never thought he was that effective in number 10 role compared to out wide. Downing outperformed him during the season so he's one who prefered the Houllier style to MON. Albrighton also did very well first half of the season before fading after xmas.
Still rather Young had stayed of course given what we replaced him with over the next few seasons.
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I've always thought there was a great deal of revisionism about that season because of the high points - finishing 9th and beating Man City, that mad United game etc. But the negatives loom large in my memory, like chanting "you're getting sacked in the morning" while losing to Sunderland and that bloody Liverpool game. Maybe others saw in that side what I couldn't see, but I thought we were fairly meat and potatoes, and it seemed to be a half-fit Young wearing a plaster on his knee every game doing the heavy lifting.
Because of personal circumstances I have a lot of emotional investment in Houllier's time at the club so today's news gave me a little tweak in the stomach. But looking at it objectively, I don't think it would have worked for longer than we had him for. It was a panic signing, a shorthand to prove we still had some clout. But it was miles better than what we did next, when we didn't have to panic at all.
Nothing against Houllier at all and feel for his family and all those who loved him in and out of football And he seems a really popular chap. I was just never convinced he really wanted to be at villa. It’s a long time ago and my memory maybe blurred by time, but seemed like there were a couple of faux pars on his part. I seem to remember him whimsically looking or touching the ‘This is Anfield’ sign when we played them up there. Nothing wrong with his heart being with Liverpool, but came across badly at the time. Also a very beatable Man City away in the cup, playing the second string, when a good couple of thousand villa had made The journey up there on a freezing midweek night.
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He'd been out of proper management for a while, and it showed. And for all the talk of his Director of Football credentials, most of his later purchases at Liverpool were terrible, eg Diouf, Cheyrou, Diaou, Biscan etc.
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The run we went on at the end of the season was Gregory-esque as I remember, and at the time I would have been happy for Houlier to go upstairs and Gary Mac to keep the manager's job.
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He'd been out of proper management for a while, and it showed. And for all the talk of his Director of Football credentials, most of his later purchases at Liverpool were terrible, eg Diouf, Cheyrou, Diaou, Biscan etc.
Good lord that is one hell of list and not a good one.
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When O'Neill walked out only days before the new season kicked off we were left in a difficult position. Given the situation, I think the Houllier appointment could have been a good punt. However, he didn't come in until October so had to get up to speed very very quickly which as time revealed was not ultimately good for his health.
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He was an unusual managerial appointment for us. We don't normally go for high achievers with cvs like his. I thought we were really stepping up by appointing him. There was still talk of champions league from the club and with a bit of fine tuning we would get into the top 4. Obviously that didn't happen. Bloody frustrating.
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He'd been out of proper management for a while, and it showed. And for all the talk of his Director of Football credentials, most of his later purchases at Liverpool were terrible, eg Diouf, Cheyrou, Diaou, Biscan etc.
Good lord that is one hell of list and not a good one.
There was a piece on The Athletic which popped up where Houllier admitted, at least with Diouf, that he'd been somewhat duped by a recommendation (Dioufed?). There's also been a story doing the rounds about confronting Paul Ince in training with an encyclopaedic knowledge of how many training ground games he'd lost, which is meant to prove he knew what he was talking about. To me that shows he had a good memory, not evidence he was a particularly gifted man manager.
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The run we went on at the end of the season was Gregory-esque as I remember, and at the time I would have been happy for Houlier to go upstairs and Gary Mac to keep the manager's job.
It wasn't that good. Before the amazing two wins v Arsenal and Liverpool we'd lost at WBA (who had 10 men) and had home draws with Stoke and Wigan.
Did Gary Mac actually go and manage anyone else after he left us? I can recall him losing to a non league team in the cup when he was Leeds manager so it never really took off like people expected.
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The run we went on at the end of the season was Gregory-esque as I remember, and at the time I would have been happy for Houlier to go upstairs and Gary Mac to keep the manager's job.
It wasn't that good. Before the amazing two wins v Arsenal and Liverpool we'd lost at WBA (who had 10 men) and had home draws with Stoke and Wigan.
Did Gary Mac actually go and manage anyone else after he left us? I can recall him losing to a non league team in the cup when he was Leeds manager so it never really took off like people expected.
I might be slightly wrong about this but I'd long thought we were more or less safe after Houllier's last game in charge when we beat West Ham in injury time. But looking at the fixtures McCallister took charge of we can't have been.
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I've always thought there was a great deal of revisionism about that season because of the high points - finishing 9th and beating Man City, that mad United game etc. But the negatives loom large in my memory, like chanting "you're getting sacked in the morning" while losing to Sunderland and that bloody Liverpool game. Maybe others saw in that side what I couldn't see, but I thought we were fairly meat and potatoes, and it seemed to be a half-fit Young wearing a plaster on his knee every game doing the heavy lifting.
Because of personal circumstances I have a lot of emotional investment in Houllier's time at the club so today's news gave me a little tweak in the stomach. But looking at it objectively, I don't think it would have worked for longer than we had him for. It was a panic signing, a shorthand to prove we still had some clout. But it was miles better than what we did next, when we didn't have to panic at all.
Nothing against Houllier at all and feel for his family and all those who loved him in and out of football And he seems a really popular chap. I was just never convinced he really wanted to be at villa. It’s a long time ago and my memory maybe blurred by time, but seemed like there were a couple of faux pars on his part. I seem to remember him whimsically looking or touching the ‘This is Anfield’ sign when we played them up there. Nothing wrong with his heart being with Liverpool, but came across badly at the time. Also a very beatable Man City away in the cup, playing the second string, when a good couple of thousand villa had made The journey up there on a freezing midweek night.
Totally agree with all your points R&B
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That last sentence is absolutely spot on - I wonder what would have happened if rather than his enforced retirement that Houllier had been able to move upstairs in some capacity and oversee structural change to the playing side that was sorely needed post-MON? The 10 subsequent years might have been slightly easier to bear, but at least it finally feels like we have got back to the place where the structure of the club is solid and we have a manager who is looking beyond the end of each season.
I agree with your post Pat. I think if Gerard had moved into a DOF role and McAllister taken over management of the side it would have had a good chance of working out. Unfortunately for us we never got to see how it might have worked out. Could’ve possibly stopped the decline into oblivion. RIP Monsieur Houllier. What could’ve been eh?
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The run we went on at the end of the season was Gregory-esque as I remember, and at the time I would have been happy for Houlier to go upstairs and Gary Mac to keep the manager's job.
It wasn't that good. Before the amazing two wins v Arsenal and Liverpool we'd lost at WBA (who had 10 men) and had home draws with Stoke and Wigan.
Did Gary Mac actually go and manage anyone else after he left us? I can recall him losing to a non league team in the cup when he was Leeds manager so it never really took off like people expected.
I might be slightly wrong about this but I'd long thought we were more or less safe after Houllier's last game in charge when we beat West Ham in injury time. But looking at the fixtures McCallister took charge of we can't have been.
SHA went down on 39 points that year so you really did need 40 points to be sure of safety . We had 42 points going into the final two games so it was still possible if very unlikely.
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Interesting post from a non Lpool fan who visited Mellwood during the time of RAFA. All the staff still spoke about Houlier how kind he was and knew the names of all the staff, door allways open and he had time for everbody at the Club. This was in stark contrast to FSW who was a miserable sod and pretty much displayed the opposite characteristics to that of Houlier.
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The run we went on at the end of the season was Gregory-esque as I remember, and at the time I would have been happy for Houlier to go upstairs and Gary Mac to keep the manager's job.
It wasn't that good. Before the amazing two wins v Arsenal and Liverpool we'd lost at WBA (who had 10 men) and had home draws with Stoke and Wigan.
Did Gary Mac actually go and manage anyone else after he left us? I can recall him losing to a non league team in the cup when he was Leeds manager so it never really took off like people expected.
I might be slightly wrong about this but I'd long thought we were more or less safe after Houllier's last game in charge when we beat West Ham in injury time. But looking at the fixtures McCallister took charge of we can't have been.
SHA went down on 39 points that year so you really did need 40 points to be sure of safety . We had 42 points going into the final two games so it was still possible if very unlikely.
Blimey. So we were only mathematically safe with 1 game left and yet we finished 9th.
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The run we went on at the end of the season was Gregory-esque as I remember, and at the time I would have been happy for Houlier to go upstairs and Gary Mac to keep the manager's job.
It wasn't that good. Before the amazing two wins v Arsenal and Liverpool we'd lost at WBA (who had 10 men) and had home draws with Stoke and Wigan.
Did Gary Mac actually go and manage anyone else after he left us? I can recall him losing to a non league team in the cup when he was Leeds manager so it never really took off like people expected.
I might be slightly wrong about this but I'd long thought we were more or less safe after Houllier's last game in charge when we beat West Ham in injury time. But looking at the fixtures McCallister took charge of we can't have been.
SHA went down on 39 points that year so you really did need 40 points to be sure of safety . We had 42 points going into the final two games so it was still possible if very unlikely.
Blimey. So we were only mathematically safe with 1 game left and yet we finished 9th.
Yeah, it was a crazy finish really. After that Arsenal game it kind of felt like, "what were we worried about?".
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FFS!
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The run we went on at the end of the season was Gregory-esque as I remember, and at the time I would have been happy for Houlier to go upstairs and Gary Mac to keep the manager's job.
It wasn't that good. Before the amazing two wins v Arsenal and Liverpool we'd lost at WBA (who had 10 men) and had home draws with Stoke and Wigan.
Did Gary Mac actually go and manage anyone else after he left us? I can recall him losing to a non league team in the cup when he was Leeds manager so it never really took off like people expected.
I might be slightly wrong about this but I'd long thought we were more or less safe after Houllier's last game in charge when we beat West Ham in injury time. But looking at the fixtures McCallister took charge of we can't have been.
SHA went down on 39 points that year so you really did need 40 points to be sure of safety . We had 42 points going into the final two games so it was still possible if very unlikely.
Blimey. So we were only mathematically safe with 1 game left and yet we finished 9th.
SHA lost their last three hilariously so they still had a pretty good chance of finishing above us going into the last few games as given the way the season had gone most would've expected Arsenal and Liverpool to soundly beat us as happened in the first half of the season but Bent had some fun at the Emirates and defence was back to 09/10 brick wall in both games.
Wigan finished 16th on 42 points so that could've easily been us.