Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: kippaxvilla2 on December 28, 2019, 08:03:43 PM
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Play off final delirium. Owners others can only dream of. Nassef stating openly the sky is the limit. We had a manager and players all fighting for each other and seemed to get the ethos of the club.
Fast forward end of the summer window. The recruitment was accepted as being sound but there were the usual concerns about lack of PL experience and big question marks about whether the forward line options would be adequate enough.
Season starts reasonably hopefully although we have a knack of losing games when on top and developed a plucky loser tag. It was a sign of things to come.
Then come December and the whole thing has turned into a complete car crash at an alarming rate. Literally almost as soon as Dean signed a new contract it has gone to shit. But deeper rooted problems are emerging meaning this slump is a symptom.
1. The scouting and recruitment of these players without underpinning them with experience is turning out to be a catastrophic error of judgment.
2. The lack of forward options and pinning our half a season hopes on a rookie who hasn’t exactly stormed the Belgian league seems to be bordering on the negligent particularly as it’s now being compounded by his seemingly undropppable status.
3. The intransigence of the Head Coach and coaching team in not seeing what 40000 others can see week in week out. Namely the formation and the complete lack of pace in the team just isn’t working.
4. Talk of players holding meetings without the Head Coach present if true and it’s a big if doesn’t bode well for harmony.
5. An alarming lack of characters in the squad to the point where we really have become a one man team.
It’s very depressing and I wanted to focus on the positives!
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Jack Woodward being re-appointed. That's where it lies. We went down when he was present. In the years he was not there we got ourselves back up. Now he is back and it has all gone pear-shaped.
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Sorry for the flippancy. In all seriousness you make a lot of very valid points.
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You’re right though Lee....
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1) I would say the management set up was the first big mistake. Pitarch as Director of Football and Smith as Head Coach simply hasn't worked. It's led to an unbalanced squad with some 'Suso' signings, and some Smith.
2) They've simply bought too many duds. Christ knows what they thought they were getting in Wesley. He's slow, cumbersome, shit in the air, can't beat people, rarely gets into good positions and never shoots. If he had any of those traits you might think he'd be a success in time, but all the things you need to be a successful Premier League striker are entirely absent from his play. Trezeguet is hardly any better, and El Ghazi is similarly shite.
3) Deciding to go into a new campaign trying to stay up with the people in 2) as our forward options was utter insanity. It was so monumentally stupid it's almost impressive that a team of people actually came to a collective agreement that that would be OK.
4) Dean Smith - decent Championship manager, nothing more, and has got away with murder because of his Villa connections.
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Too much youth and not enough experience among our summer signings.
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I think the players can see what we can see that the team has no game plan, the Leicester game was a clear example playing a high defensive line with slow centre backs against one of the quickest forward lines in the league.
They would see that little effort appears to be put in to finding opposition weaknesses and exploiting them we play the same way no matter the opposition, the pity of it is that we do have a couple of gems in the team who will be off next season unless we can start winning games and I'm pretty sure we will not with this manager.
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Some valid points there from Kippax and Risso....
It's all gone a bit "Pete Tong"
As a club we don't appear to learn from our mistakes ....the current owners need to be proactive now - the thought of relegation is unpalatable and even more so if they are prepared to accept it rather than fight it .....
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Recruitment and a naive inexperienced manager.
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Drawing with Manchester United.
Even when we get a good result off them, it still f***s up our season.
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DS has to take the lions share, being too rigid in selection and formation, but Richard Madeley was in charge of recruitment and while we needed an overhaul, lack of experience in this country with the signings and lack of options up front will cost us.
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DS has to take the lions share, being too rigid in selection and formation, but Richard Madeley was in charge of recruitment and while we needed an overhaul, lack of experience in this country with the signings and lack of options up front will cost us.
Well there's our problem right there, Judy was always the brains.
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1. His reluctance to change - I thought he was a good up and coming coach with a good football brain. This is lacking.
2. Motivation of the players - It isn’t the defeats to Southampton and to Watford it’s the manner. We have been outfought which isn’t acceptable and comes from him, the leader.
3. Transfers - I thought from his time at Brentford he had an eye for a talent and at bargain prices. Looking at Trezeguet and Wesley in particular I am not sure that’s the case. Just on Wesley, Dean (to the best of my knowledge) has always played fast flowing, intigate passing football with a striker that fits this system, so why when we signs one for villa does he sign a big target man type? Especially with Abraham going back, he had a plain canvas??
All of these were the reasons I wanted him and the why I wanted to give him the season regardless. But he is struggling now.
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He’s part of a structure that has bought a load of players not suitable for a successful season in the PL
He’s partially at fault for that but only partially, he’s been asked to make a silk purse from a sows ear and hasn’t managed it. He did a magnificent job in getting us to the PL and for me he’ll go down as being one of my favourite managers ever.
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Our inability to adapt to change in games has stood out for me, not least the challenge presented by playing against ten men. That takes some doing.
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He’s part of a structure that has bought a load of players not suitable for a successful season in the PL
He’s partially at fault for that but only partially, he’s been asked to make a silk purse from a sows ear and hasn’t managed it. He did a magnificent job in getting us to the PL and for me he’ll go down as being one of my favourite managers ever.
The sows ear from his own pigheadedness over playing Wes week in week out in the same system.
T
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Reflecting on it manager after manager they never seem to help themselves.
They can’t see our forward is terrible and devoid of confidence. Answer keep on playing him.
He can’t see that playing the most gifted midfielder of the modern generation out wide is wholly ineffective.
He can’t see that 4-3-3 needs the occasional tweak especially at this level and especially with the amount of goals we leak.
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Reflecting on it manager after manager they never seem to help themselves.
He can’t see our forward is terrible and devoid of confidence. Answer keep on playing him.
He can’t see that playing the most gifted midfielder of the modern generation out wide is wholly ineffective.
He can’t see that 4-3-3 needs the occasional tweak especially at this level and especially with the amount of goals we leak.
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Weakness in defence ,is a major problem, when you consider that Dean was a centre back in his playing career, and J T was managed and coached by some of the best managers and coaches in the history of the premier League. What an earth is going on it seems almost wilfull.
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The reason is simple - repeating 2015's recruitment policy and expecting a different result
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A good striker would’ve helped.
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No clear and obvious plan on who is meant to lead player recruitment, I think it should work best when the manager goes to the board/chairman/Director with a list of players he wants to scout/sign.... Benrahma, Maupay etc..... clearly, under Suso, Purslow et al it's they're picking the players, and the head coach somehow shoe-horns them into his plan A formation and style of playing, and when he can't get them into his tactics, he then tries to shoehorn other signings into this style.
There is a clear lack of too many things in this group.....
Leadership - there's no real captain - yeah, we all love a fairytale, and for Jack to have the armband, winning the play-offs etc was all great... but it may be a burden for a 24 year old with a horrific experience in his previous Premier League life to carry.
Experience - the only real Premier League experience in this squad is Elmo, Neil Taylor and Tom Heaton - players that are more used to losing in the Premier League than winning.
Attacking options - how low must DS think of Kodjia to keep Wesley up top - show's what a pathetic bunch of forwards we have at this level.... every team in the Premier League has a striker that would get into our team, even Newcastle - Dwight Gayle....
The wide options are flakey - Jota, couldn't stay in the Blues team, El Ghazi did naff all most weeks in the Championship, and Trezeguet.... the other Trezeguet would be better.
CBA to go on
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A really good Striker would converted draws into wins and defeats into draws. These missed opportunities created a concern which permeated throughout the rest of the side.
Whatever we do this window it must involve a good striker. That tells you everything.
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Now would not be the best time to be giving games to 'the youngsters', but it is a concern that we appear to have none that are even close to knocking on the door.
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There is a possibility that a couple might be involved against Fulham.
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We'll play a heavily weakened team at Fulham. The seniors will be fooked after the Christmas period and the extra days training they've had to do as penance for their shite performances.
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Lack of Premier League experience, on and off the pitch. Coupled with having very limited attacking options. Which most of us flagged as an issue at the start of the season.
That said, we are far from dead yet. 3 clever signings could sort this mess out.
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Shocking decision to gamble with just wesleg as our only striker.
Gambling on trezuget and jota who had no pl experience whatsover.
Not signing maupay. What a massive cockup that was.
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Gambling on trezuget and jota who had no pl experience whatsover.
Not signing maupay. What a massive cockup that was.
Maupay had no PL experience? Would you have wanted him in the summer?
Our problems are bad recruitment and not having a plan B to change the game.
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Dean Smith’s Aston Villa epitaph will be spelt W E S L E Y.
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It could be that Dean Smith just isn't a premier league manager.
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I echo what many others have said, lack of experience is a big one for me, Hause and Konza look like they will turn into good players, but to have a centre back partnership with barely 10 games between them in a relegation battle is criminal IMO
The centre midfield looks weak and lacks a ball winner and seems devoid of any confidence or leadership, and as for up front, I think pretty much everyone on this forum going into the season with one unproven striker, (I don't count Davis or Kodja for reasons already discussed) were at the very least concerned
I really want Smith to turn this around, but with no Jack for boxing day and only 1 away win this season, the odds look very much stacked against him.
My real concern if he does get the push is Remi Garde MK2 walking through the doors.
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Grealish is eligible for the Burnley match.
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Lack of front line signings and signing Wesley.
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Leicester. Killed our spirit.
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Playing Wasno up front every single game.
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Playing Wasno up front every single gale.
You are Stanley Unwin and I claim my £5.
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Playing Wasno up front every single gale.
You are Stanley Unwin and I claim my £5.
We certainly unwin a lot.
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Leicester. Killed our spirit.
I was thinking this too. Funny how us and Leicester seem to come together for a seemingly unimportant fixture which turns out to have a monumental effect. They seem to have crushed our players self belief after that recent performance. Then there was the famous incident where tinkering Tim decided that we had them beat when 2-0 up at their place so he changed everything around. He brought Jordan Ayew on and played him as a winger. Leicester famously turned it around and beat us 3-2. They never looked back and went on to win the league while we went on a massive slump which ended up with us in the Championship. So it's all Leicesters fault.
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No pace in the team and signing 3 attackers (Wesley, Trez and El Ghazi) who are not up to standard for this league. The injuries of late haven’t helped either.
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I’d say a mixture of lack of striker options, in game tactical nouse and inability to motivate a demotivated squad. Sadly those 3 elements generally spell relegation. I always thought we’d struggle but I didn’t have it down as bad as this - the lack of movement is so telling.
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I'd say inexperience and a lack of a striker.
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I'd say inexperience and a lack of a striker.
I agree but I would change striker to forward line
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Emile Weskey isn't getting much love on here...
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Basically we have taken too many risks on players without PL experience and as a consequence paid the price. Jedinak in the middle of that midfield would make a massive difference, if only for taking penalties (which we are the only side in the PL to not score a penalty when awarded one).
DS has a way of playing that works in the lower leagues but in the PL you have to be much more adaptable, as you have much better players and managers, which he refuses to acknowledge! Something has to change, otherwise relegation beckons. We might be lucky and get a striker that takes some of the burden off the other players, a real defensive midfield player, stop playing Grealish out wide but most of all try something different, talk to the players and get them onboard again!
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Smith's reputation as a forward thinking coach with progressive ideas and a desire for good football was what got him the job and the support of almost everyone. That seems to have been smoke and mirrors, based on his stubborn insistence on a 4-3-3 that has been sussed out ages ago and an inability to have a plan B or make adaptations mid-game, even to account for 10 men.
Recruitment hasn't helped - whether scouted by Suso or Dean, too much inexperience and I'm struggling to see how any merit was seen in signing the likes of Trezeguet and Targett who both look way out of their depth at this level. We surely must have players in the youth team or out on loan who couldn't be any worse.
And Luiz has to be one of the thickest footballers I've ever seen - just gives loads of stupid free kicks away chasing his own mistakes, and the penalty at Watford was just the cherry on the cake - waving for offside with Targett clearly playing everyone onside, and then running into Deeney like a runaway train. Utterly fucking brainless. When Danny Murphy can call you lacking in intelligence, you've reached a low point.
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing and we clearly haven't signed anywhere near enough players with Premier Division experience, or, leaders for key areas of the pitch. We have an opportunity to put some of that right now with the transfer window coming up. We cannot afford to make the same mistake twice. Dean needs upgrades in several areas, central midfield, winger, forward. Defensively, I think we will get better if he sorts the defensive side of the midfield out. I'd like to see players brought in to create partnerships. I think it would be wrong of us to dismiss the use of the loan market as we simply need to survive.
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The reason is simple - repeating 2015's recruitment policy and expecting a different result
Pretty much this.
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Transfers.
2 players from the Belgian league.
1 player from Southamptons reserves.
1 player from Wolves reserves.
1 player who nearly got relegated in the Turkish league.
2 player from mid table Championship sides.
1 player from mid table French league side.
1 player relegated in the Spanish league.
1 player relegated in the French league.
It's ok throwing a couple in together with more experienced, better pedigree signings but having a team full of them isn't working out.
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Transfers.
2 players from the Belgian league.
1 player from Southamptons reserves.
1 player from Wolves reserves.
1 player who nearly got relegated in the Turkish league.
2 player from mid table Championship sides.
1 player from mid table French league side.
1 player relegated in the Spanish league.
1 player relegated in the French league.
It's ok throwing a couple in together with more experienced, better pedigree signings but having a team full of them isn't working out.
Blimey - when analysed like that it's no wonder we're struggling.
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Transfers.
2 players from the Belgian league.
1 player from Southamptons reserves.
1 player from Wolves reserves.
1 player who nearly got relegated in the Turkish league.
2 player from mid table Championship sides.
1 player from mid table French league side.
1 player relegated in the Spanish league.
1 player relegated in the French league.
It's ok throwing a couple in together with more experienced, better pedigree signings but having a team full of them isn't working out.
Blimey - when analysed like that it's no wonder we're struggling.
It is - however if we take Sheffield Utds transfers :
Swansea striker
Bournemouth reserve
Preston, QPR and Forest players
3 free transfers and 2 loans
Then you'd be hard pressed to make a decent case for that. Some of our signings have played in the champions league for gods sake. If there's any telling theory to take from our signings I think its that you can't forge a team with so many signings at once. That and you need decent tactics.
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We only won one of our first seven league games. Apart from back to back wins against Norwich and Brighton where/when did it actually go right?
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Leicester was a reality check and it hit the team hard as well as Smith. It was men against boys, they have not recovered, got worse and Smith has no answers.
I agree with the recruiting approach, too many unknowns and when we are up against it, they look like rabbits cought in the headlights. Hopefully we can see more Man U performances than Watford and have enough to keep us up with a few quality signings.
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1. Starting the season with a such a poor strike force
2. Playing half a season with such a poor strike force
3. A manager who for some inexplicable reason won’t change.
4. Players losing all confidence in the manager
5. Put all in a bowl, mix and you get relegated by Easter.
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Yes, forgot to add, signing 1 unknown striker was a massive gamble.
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Leicester was a reality check and it hit the team hard as well as Smith. It was men against boys, they have not recovered, got worse and Smith has no answers.
If so fucking diddums! Would they like the fans to implement 'Jazz hands' instead of cheering while they recover from the shock?
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6. Also Marvellous and Luis are not the midfield ass kickin mafia we were looking for to sit behind Jack.
7. Also playing Jack on the wing FFS.
All lies at the manager’s door I’m afraid.
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Leicester was a reality check and it hit the team hard as well as Smith. It was men against boys, they have not recovered, got worse and Smith has no answers.
If so fucking diddums! Would they like the fans to implement 'Jazz hands' instead of cheering while they recover from the shock?
Er no, no ‘Jazz hands’. I wasn’t looking to feel sorry for them but they should get on with it, they haven’t and gone downhill since. Smith has no answers currently.
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DB mate, just to be clear, I was giving the players an 'online kicking' not you. :-)
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It was the Arsenal game for me. This first showed up Smiths indecisiveness, following failing to beat a poor 10 man West Ham team.
I was fuming for days and it must have had an impact on the players.
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Instead of signing Luiz & Nakamba just pay Leeds what they wanted for Phillips.
Instead of signing Trezeguet & Jota just pay Brentford what they wanted for Benrahma.
There was absolutely no justification however for going into the season without signing a proven striker. To be 100% reliant on a 21 year old Brazilian who had only ever played in Belgium wirh no viable alternative was a recipe for disaster.
Granted the Benteke gamble paid off when we did similiar a few years ago but if it hadnt we still had Bent & Gabby around to cover. The Wesley gamble has been a nightmare.
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When we signed Benteke we already had Bent, our record signing, and Agbonlahor, who was still regarded as a vaguely reliable centre-forward at the time. So, at the time, we thought it would be fine even if it didn't work out.
Wesley was ALWAYS going to be a case of putting all our eggs in one basket. Even if he had adjusted to the Premier League straight away, and hit the ground running, we would still have been all kinds of fucked if he got injured.
Just as not bothering to sign a centre-half in the summer of 2018 was probably what finished Bruce's Villa career, not adding another forward this summer is looking like it could prove fatal for Smith's managerial prospects.
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It was the Arsenal game for me. This first showed up Smiths indecisiveness, following failing to beat a poor 10 man West Ham team.
I was fuming for days and it must have had an impact on the players.
Yes the Arsenal game was really bad. But for me it was that triple like for like substitution at Wigan away. He then persisted with the 4-3-3 week after week after that, despite the performances being absolutely appalling. Just like now, he refused to try anything different. The warning signs were there all along. He got unbelievably lucky that Grealish came back and earnt him a promotion on his cv, because the promotion really didn’t have much to do with anything Smith actually changed
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Not picking up a few draws is killing us. If we don’t win, we lose, generally.
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We could definitely improve going forwards but purely on goals for and against our main issue is clearly conceding. We've scored the most goals bar Arsenal outside the top 8 and only Norwich and Southampton have conceded more. You could also make a good case for saying on chances conceded we've done well to concede only 36 so far.
For me it's a mixture of being poorly set up by being far too open (some of those 2v2 situations against Leicester were ridiculous) and some of the players simply aren't good enough at the moment. I think we need more experience at the back and a Glenn Whelan type in front of the back 4. If we can tighten up, we've definitely got enough goals in us to be able to grind out a few results.
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Not picking up a few draws is killing us. If we don’t win, we lose, generally.
We just lose, generally.
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It was the Arsenal game for me. This first showed up Smiths indecisiveness, following failing to beat a poor 10 man West Ham team.
I was fuming for days and it must have had an impact on the players.
Yes the Arsenal game was really bad. But for me it was that triple like for like substitution at Wigan away. He then persisted with the 4-3-3 week after week after that, despite the performances being absolutely appalling. Just like now, he refused to try anything different. The warning signs were there all along. He got unbelievably lucky that Grealish came back and earnt him a promotion on his cv, because the promotion really didn’t have much to do with anything Smith actually changed
With all due respect and politeness, in my opinion this is a bit revisionist. As much as Smith has been largely disappointing this season, he was still great last season.
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Transfers.
2 players from the Belgian league.
1 player from Southamptons reserves.
1 player from Wolves reserves.
1 player who nearly got relegated in the Turkish league.
2 player from mid table Championship sides.
1 player from mid table French league side.
1 player relegated in the Spanish league.
1 player relegated in the French league.
It's ok throwing a couple in together with more experienced, better pedigree signings but having a team full of them isn't working out.
Blimey - when analysed like that it's no wonder we're struggling.
It is - however if we take Sheffield Utds transfers :
Swansea striker
Bournemouth reserve
Preston, QPR and Forest players
3 free transfers and 2 loans
Then you'd be hard pressed to make a decent case for that. Some of our signings have played in the champions league for gods sake. If there's any telling theory to take from our signings I think its that you can't forge a team with so many signings at once. That and you need decent tactics.
Maybe their manager is picking & signing their players. So he knows exactly what will work.
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It was the Arsenal game for me. This first showed up Smiths indecisiveness, following failing to beat a poor 10 man West Ham team.
I was fuming for days and it must have had an impact on the players.
Yes the Arsenal game was really bad. But for me it was that triple like for like substitution at Wigan away. He then persisted with the 4-3-3 week after week after that, despite the performances being absolutely appalling. Just like now, he refused to try anything different. The warning signs were there all along. He got unbelievably lucky that Grealish came back and earnt him a promotion on his cv, because the promotion really didn’t have much to do with anything Smith actually changed
With all due respect and politeness, in my opinion this is a bit revisionist. As much as Smith has been largely disappointing this season, he was still great last season.
It’s not revisionist in the slightest, I thought the run from Leeds at home to Stoke away was some of the worst football I’d seen ever seen a Villa side play and said so at the time. I wanted Smith gone then and promotion didn’t change my mind because I couldn’t see what Smith had really done to change anything other than Grealish coming back. Wigan away, Reading away, Preston away, Swansea in the cup etc were shockingly awful and it went on for weeks and weeks. If he’d changed something before Grealish came back then fair enough, but there was nothing. So in reality Grealish was great for us last season
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You can integrate a lot of new signings if they are good enough. BFR brought in Bosnich, Sealey, Teale, Ugo, Kubicki, Staunton, Barrett, Richardson, Parker, Mortimer and Regis. All in the summer except for Parker and Kubicki who joined a few weeks into the season. A whole starting XI of players who all did a decent job with the exception of Mortimer, who he quickly shifted out.
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It was the Arsenal game for me. This first showed up Smiths indecisiveness, following failing to beat a poor 10 man West Ham team.
I was fuming for days and it must have had an impact on the players.
Yes the Arsenal game was really bad. But for me it was that triple like for like substitution at Wigan away. He then persisted with the 4-3-3 week after week after that, despite the performances being absolutely appalling. Just like now, he refused to try anything different. The warning signs were there all along. He got unbelievably lucky that Grealish came back and earnt him a promotion on his cv, because the promotion really didn’t have much to do with anything Smith actually changed
With all due respect and politeness, in my opinion this is a bit revisionist. As much as Smith has been largely disappointing this season, he was still great last season.
It’s not revisionist in the slightest, I thought the run from Leeds at home to Stoke away was some of the worst football I’d seen ever seen a Villa side play and said so at the time. I wanted Smith gone then and promotion didn’t change my mind because I couldn’t see what Smith had really done to change anything other than Grealish coming back. Wigan away, Reading away, Preston away, Swansea in the cup etc were shockingly awful and it went on for weeks and weeks. If he’d changed something before Grealish came back then fair enough, but there was nothing. So in reality Grealish was great for us last season
Rotherham away 2nd half, fantastic. Small Heath away, teehee! Forest away, brilliant. Derby at home, awesome, Boro at home, awesome. Fun this game.
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It was the Arsenal game for me. This first showed up Smiths indecisiveness, following failing to beat a poor 10 man West Ham team.
I was fuming for days and it must have had an impact on the players.
Yes the Arsenal game was really bad. But for me it was that triple like for like substitution at Wigan away. He then persisted with the 4-3-3 week after week after that, despite the performances being absolutely appalling. Just like now, he refused to try anything different. The warning signs were there all along. He got unbelievably lucky that Grealish came back and earnt him a promotion on his cv, because the promotion really didn’t have much to do with anything Smith actually changed
With all due respect and politeness, in my opinion this is a bit revisionist. As much as Smith has been largely disappointing this season, he was still great last season.
It’s not revisionist in the slightest, I thought the run from Leeds at home to Stoke away was some of the worst football I’d seen ever seen a Villa side play and said so at the time. I wanted Smith gone then and promotion didn’t change my mind because I couldn’t see what Smith had really done to change anything other than Grealish coming back. Wigan away, Reading away, Preston away, Swansea in the cup etc were shockingly awful and it went on for weeks and weeks. If he’d changed something before Grealish came back then fair enough, but there was nothing. So in reality Grealish was great for us last season
Tend to agree with this. We were awful in Dec, Jan and Feb last season. Jack was immense but the signing of Mings was also crucial so fair play to DS for that
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It was the Arsenal game for me. This first showed up Smiths indecisiveness, following failing to beat a poor 10 man West Ham team.
I was fuming for days and it must have had an impact on the players.
Yes the Arsenal game was really bad. But for me it was that triple like for like substitution at Wigan away. He then persisted with the 4-3-3 week after week after that, despite the performances being absolutely appalling. Just like now, he refused to try anything different. The warning signs were there all along. He got unbelievably lucky that Grealish came back and earnt him a promotion on his cv, because the promotion really didn’t have much to do with anything Smith actually changed
With all due respect and politeness, in my opinion this is a bit revisionist. As much as Smith has been largely disappointing this season, he was still great last season.
It’s not revisionist in the slightest, I thought the run from Leeds at home to Stoke away was some of the worst football I’d seen ever seen a Villa side play and said so at the time. I wanted Smith gone then and promotion didn’t change my mind because I couldn’t see what Smith had really done to change anything other than Grealish coming back. Wigan away, Reading away, Preston away, Swansea in the cup etc were shockingly awful and it went on for weeks and weeks. If he’d changed something before Grealish came back then fair enough, but there was nothing. So in reality Grealish was great for us last season
Rotherham away 2nd half, fantastic. Small Heath away, teehee! Forest away, brilliant. Derby at home, awesome, Boro at home, awesome. Fun this game.
All of those games you list came after Grealish came back. I haven’t disputed that Grealish got us promoted.
Other than Rotherham away when he was forced into bringing Kodjia on at half time, is there a time when Smith has made a formation change or a great tactical move that has meant we go on to win a game, or draw a game from a losing position. It’s very difficult to think of many, if any, last season or this season. The norm has been for him to do nothing, like Wigan away, Arsenal away etc. Yes we might well have gone on to lose at Arsenal for example anyway, but if you know you struggle to see out games without making changes, it’s negligent not to at least try something once.
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We came back in a number of games. I seem to recall Smith making some good substitutions around the 65 minute mark in Morodor. It was absolute bedlam in the away as a result. You wouldn't have enjoyed it though.
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I agree with Ketzer to be honest, if Grealish's injury lasted 2 weeks longer last season, we don't go up. Smith managed 2 wins out of 13 prior to him returning.
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And Smith managed what Bruce could not. He got us promoted.
Liverpool are only going to win the league because of all their good players. If it wasn't for them having better players, they wouldn't be doing as well.
Some absolute cutting edge analysis, along with absurd polemics going on in this thread.
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It was the Arsenal game for me. This first showed up Smiths indecisiveness, following failing to beat a poor 10 man West Ham team.
I was fuming for days and it must have had an impact on the players.
Yes the Arsenal game was really bad. But for me it was that triple like for like substitution at Wigan away. He then persisted with the 4-3-3 week after week after that, despite the performances being absolutely appalling. Just like now, he refused to try anything different. The warning signs were there all along. He got unbelievably lucky that Grealish came back and earnt him a promotion on his cv, because the promotion really didn’t have much to do with anything Smith actually changed
With all due respect and politeness, in my opinion this is a bit revisionist. As much as Smith has been largely disappointing this season, he was still great last season.
It’s not revisionist in the slightest, I thought the run from Leeds at home to Stoke away was some of the worst football I’d seen ever seen a Villa side play and said so at the time. I wanted Smith gone then and promotion didn’t change my mind because I couldn’t see what Smith had really done to change anything other than Grealish coming back. Wigan away, Reading away, Preston away, Swansea in the cup etc were shockingly awful and it went on for weeks and weeks. If he’d changed something before Grealish came back then fair enough, but there was nothing. So in reality Grealish was great for us last season
Tend to agree with this. We were awful in Dec, Jan and Feb last season. Jack was immense but the signing of Mings was also crucial so fair play to DS for that
Yes I think Mings helped too, but we are indeed awful now and we were rubbish this time last year.
There have been references before about Smith going on good runs and then awful ones and that's why he never got real league success with Brentford or Walsall.
It kind of went wrong when we thought we hadn't done, or wouldn't do a 'Fulham', but essentially that's what we are doing.
There have been a few performances that have been ok, but only that. Some have been appalling, especially the capitulations or being outplayed and outmanoeuvred by 10 men on several occasions.
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Eddie Howe wouldn't have made it out of 2015.
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We came back in a number of games. I seem to recall Smith making some good substitutions around the 65 minute mark in Morodor. It was absolute bedlam in the away as a result. You wouldn't have enjoyed it though.
I don’t think so. Before Grealish came back, we came back against Hull at home after an utterly disgraceful first half which came after the Wigan disgrace, Sheffield United in a freak last ten minutes after we’d been embarrassed for 70 minutes, and Stoke away. It’s hardly a number of games, and despite Grealish being out, Smith should have been doing much much better with the resources at his disposal during those games. The point is, the problems that we are seeing now aren’t a new thing, they were there when he had better players than other championship clubs.
And Ads, Liverpool look like their players are well drilled obviously. Our players look like they haven’t received any coaching for months
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Leicester was a reality check and it hit the team hard as well as Smith. It was men against boys, they have not recovered, got worse and Smith has no answers.
If so fucking diddums! Would they like the fans to implement 'Jazz hands' instead of cheering while they recover from the shock?
I think DS reverting to a defensive strategy at Sheffield United following the Leicester game had an adverse effect. The players had been told that we could go toe to toe with anyone, and they stopped believing. After the game, DS admitted he wished he hadn't tried it.
Pure conjecture, I concede.
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And Smith managed what Bruce could not. He got us promoted.
Liverpool are only going to win the league because of all their good players. If it wasn't for them having better players, they wouldn't be doing as well.
Some absolute cutting edge analysis, along with absurd polemics going on in this thread.
I had to look up what 'polemics' meant. I thought it was someone born to one Polish parent and one Irish parent.
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We came back in a number of games. I seem to recall Smith making some good substitutions around the 65 minute mark in Morodor. It was absolute bedlam in the away as a result. You wouldn't have enjoyed it though.
I don’t think so. Before Grealish came back, we came back against Hull at home after an utterly disgraceful first half which came after the Wigan disgrace, Sheffield United in a freak last ten minutes after we’d been embarrassed for 70 minutes, and Stoke away. It’s hardly a number of games, and despite Grealish being out, Smith should have been doing much much better with the resources at his disposal during those games. The point is, the problems that we are seeing now aren’t a new thing, they were there when he had better players than other championship clubs.
And Ads, Liverpool look like their players are well drilled obviously. Our players look like they haven’t received any coaching for months
Naming games where we came back, without Jack, doesnt disprove my point.
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While it's easy to hammer player recruitment in hindsight this group of players looked perfectly fine just a month or two ago and then almost beating Liverpool in what would have been a very deserved result. That we have a manager who throughout the season has been tactically naive late in games, immensely stubborn in his approach and has become increasingly defensive in his outlook and accusatory as results became poorer is for me the biggest issue we are facing.
I am very much in the camp that Dean Smith must shoulder the majority of the blame for what has gone wrong so far. He gave us all the impression that he was an astute football manager who had a specific gameplan for each opponent and one that irrespective of the opponent would see us trying to win. The evidence is very much to the contrary. He has one plan and our possession stats of late suggest he is trying to avoid defeat rather than play to win. He hasn't sorted out our defensive issues. All too often we are overrun in midfield and our players still make stupid errors throughout the game. Those things should have been fixed by now. It's on the manager to do that with his staff, with his players; to send them out best prepared to get positive results. For me, there are no signs that is happening now, or more worryingly is about to change any time soon.
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I wasn’t convinced with Smith last season, you could see his limitations & even during the 10 run win we were very average in a lot of the games, grealish, some luck & then momentum got us to the play offs, even then, against baggies I thought we were awful & very lucky to get through we were very lucky to get Derby not Leeds,
It’s great having a Villa fan as a manager & great to have stability & a long term plan, but it simply has to be the right manager, who can improve players, change formations & react in game time, 433 can work for the likes of Liverpool & city etc that have a great defensive midfield platform & fantastic fast, hard working wide players that score regularly & track back, but for Smith to carry on doing the same thing that in my opinion only kinda worked by & luck & grealish coming back is shocking, he simply isn’t the great coach that we all though & hoped he was & I think if we lose tomorrow he has to be sacked.
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We came back in a number of games. I seem to recall Smith making some good substitutions around the 65 minute mark in Morodor. It was absolute bedlam in the away as a result. You wouldn't have enjoyed it though.
I don’t think so. Before Grealish came back, we came back against Hull at home after an utterly disgraceful first half which came after the Wigan disgrace, Sheffield United in a freak last ten minutes after we’d been embarrassed for 70 minutes, and Stoke away. It’s hardly a number of games, and despite Grealish being out, Smith should have been doing much much better with the resources at his disposal during those games. The point is, the problems that we are seeing now aren’t a new thing, they were there when he had better players than other championship clubs.
And Ads, Liverpool look like their players are well drilled obviously. Our players look like they haven’t received any coaching for months
Naming games where we came back, without Jack, doesnt disprove my point.
But naming games we won when Grealish came back like you did doesn’t disprove my point either. This year, when we’ve had to be reliant on Smiths managerial ability rather than just a player who is way too good for the division like Grealish at the end of last season, the results and performances haven’t been very good, if not generally pretty shocking
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There are so many instances to hazard a guess at;
The penalty v Bournemouth,
The 3rd goal at Arsenal;
The handbags between Mings & AEL,
The insistance of starting Wesley every league game,
The refusal to change system even though its patently obvious 433 simply is not working,
The in out in of Hourihane,
The playing of both Luiz and Nakemba in the same game,
The continued playing of our best and most influrntisl player in the wrong position.
The import of so many unproven players with no Premiership experience,
The seemingly stubborn refusal unless enforced to make substitutions
The list is endless perm any 2 or 3 or a combination of them all.
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We came back in a number of games. I seem to recall Smith making some good substitutions around the 65 minute mark in Morodor. It was absolute bedlam in the away as a result. You wouldn't have enjoyed it though.
I don’t think so. Before Grealish came back, we came back against Hull at home after an utterly disgraceful first half which came after the Wigan disgrace, Sheffield United in a freak last ten minutes after we’d been embarrassed for 70 minutes, and Stoke away. It’s hardly a number of games, and despite Grealish being out, Smith should have been doing much much better with the resources at his disposal during those games. The point is, the problems that we are seeing now aren’t a new thing, they were there when he had better players than other championship clubs.
And Ads, Liverpool look like their players are well drilled obviously. Our players look like they haven’t received any coaching for months
Naming games where we came back, without Jack, doesnt disprove my point.
But naming games we won when Grealish came back like you did doesn’t disprove my point either. This year, when we’ve had to be reliant on Smiths managerial ability rather than just a player who is way too good for the division like Grealish at the end of last season, the results and performances haven’t been very good, if not generally pretty shocking
I'm not trying to disprove your point, I can't fathom why you speak only of Grealish.
We had the best player in Grealish. We also had the best centre forward in Tammy. The best midfielder in McGinn
The best centre half in Mings. We went up because of all of these players being much better than their peers, yet you're somehow implying it doesn't count because we had much better players, so Smith cannot take any credit. It's as ridiculous as saying Real cannot count the European Cups they won with Ronaldo because they didn't do it with Kevin Muscatt in their midfield.
You're saying Smith can't take credit for turning us around, having us play some of the best football we had played since Brian Little. Do you go to games, were you at Derby? Could you believe what you were seeing with how good we were? Were you one of the 3000 trying to remember the last time we should have scored 7 or 8, without exaggeration away from home?
We went on a poor run, Grealish came back and inspired us and we went on the best run since cricket playing Methodists got bored during winter and decided to do something about it.
This year we're in a league where the quality is significantly higher, the learning curve significantly steeper, but where, up until the 8th December we had been competitive, if naive and wasteful.
We were exposed, horribly, against Leicester, made doubly worse by losing our biggest leader at the back in Mings. We've collapsed into poor form and fit a streaky pattern of Smith's career at Walsall, Brentford and us last season until something clicked second half, pre-Grealish, at Stoke.
Our attacking players aren't up to it in this division in my view, certainly not yet at any rate. I think its cost us all season that lack of pace, lack of clinical chance taking, but I'm hoping I see a Stoke away result tomorrow and a January to add players. You're hoping to be proved right.
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This is a thread that wouldn't have looked out of place in any of the years from MON throwing his dummy out of the pram up until our eventual inevitable relegation.
As a thread for the season 19/20 when we got promoted as the 5th best team in the championship, knowing this season was always going to be a struggle, I'm not so sure. Why haven't things worked out so far, maybe?
Something has to be on the path to being right before it can go wrong and we were never the finished article getting promoted to a division that had moved on in our 3 year absence.
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We came back in a number of games. I seem to recall Smith making some good substitutions around the 65 minute mark in Morodor. It was absolute bedlam in the away as a result. You wouldn't have enjoyed it though.
I don’t think so. Before Grealish came back, we came back against Hull at home after an utterly disgraceful first half which came after the Wigan disgrace, Sheffield United in a freak last ten minutes after we’d been embarrassed for 70 minutes, and Stoke away. It’s hardly a number of games, and despite Grealish being out, Smith should have been doing much much better with the resources at his disposal during those games. The point is, the problems that we are seeing now aren’t a new thing, they were there when he had better players than other championship clubs.
And Ads, Liverpool look like their players are well drilled obviously. Our players look like they haven’t received any coaching for months
Naming games where we came back, without Jack, doesnt disprove my point.
But naming games we won when Grealish came back like you did doesn’t disprove my point either. This year, when we’ve had to be reliant on Smiths managerial ability rather than just a player who is way too good for the division like Grealish at the end of last season, the results and performances haven’t been very good, if not generally pretty shocking
I'm not trying to disprove your point, I can't fathom why you speak only of Grealish.
We had the best player in Grealish. We also had the best centre forward in Tammy. The best midfielder in McGinn
The best centre half in Mings. We went up because of all of these players being much better than their peers, yet you're somehow implying it doesn't count because we had much better players, so Smith cannot take any credit. It's as ridiculous as saying Real cannot count the European Cups they won with Ronaldo because they didn't do it with Kevin Muscatt in their midfield.
You're saying Smith can't take credit for turning us around, having us play some of the best football we had played since Brian Little. Do you go to games, were you at Derby? Could you believe what you were seeing with how good we were? Were you one of the 3000 trying to remember the last time we should have scored 7 or 8, without exaggeration away from home?
We went on a poor run, Grealish came back and inspired us and we went on the best run since cricket playing Methodists got bored during winter and decided to do something about it.
This year we're in a league where the quality is significantly higher, the learning curve significantly steeper, but where, up until the 8th December we had been competitive, if naive and wasteful.
We were exposed, horribly, against Leicester, made doubly worse by losing our biggest leader at the back in Mings. We've collapsed into poor form and fit a streaky pattern of Smith's career at Walsall, Brentford and us last season until something clicked second half, pre-Grealish, at Stoke.
Our attacking players aren't up to it in this division in my view, certainly not yet at any rate. I think its cost us all season that lack of pace, lack of clinical chance taking, but I'm hoping I see a Stoke away result tomorrow and a January to add players. You're hoping to be proved right.
Yes Ads I do go to the games. That’s why I was able to form the view I have about Smith because I was at all of the games between Leeds at home and Stoke away last season. I genuinely believe that had Grealish not come back, we wouldn’t have got promoted or come anywhere near. Had Smith been left to his devices pre Grealish returning, we were on course to finish towards the lower end of the championship. The difference in one game was so huge. There was no sign of Smith doing anything to stop the rot then, just like now. I’m not saying anything terribly outlandish but you disagree and that’s your opinion. You say Smith has produced some of the best football since Brian Little, I have also seen him produce an awful lot of dire football, some of which has been the worst football I’ve ever seen a Villa side produce. Wigan away being the lowest of the low in my opinion which I said at the time and you disagreed with which is fine. What de bank has said in a post above is absolutely spot on. I agree with that post but you probably don’t. It’s an opinion
You mention we had other players than Jack last season, which is totally my point. Yes we did, and Smith did nothing with them before Derby at home. And what was it that changed in that game?
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We came back in a number of games. I seem to recall Smith making some good substitutions around the 65 minute mark in Morodor. It was absolute bedlam in the away as a result. You wouldn't have enjoyed it though.
I don’t think so. Before Grealish came back, we came back against Hull at home after an utterly disgraceful first half which came after the Wigan disgrace, Sheffield United in a freak last ten minutes after we’d been embarrassed for 70 minutes, and Stoke away. It’s hardly a number of games, and despite Grealish being out, Smith should have been doing much much better with the resources at his disposal during those games. The point is, the problems that we are seeing now aren’t a new thing, they were there when he had better players than other championship clubs.
And Ads, Liverpool look like their players are well drilled obviously. Our players look like they haven’t received any coaching for months
Naming games where we came back, without Jack, doesnt disprove my point.
But naming games we won when Grealish came back like you did doesn’t disprove my point either. This year, when we’ve had to be reliant on Smiths managerial ability rather than just a player who is way too good for the division like Grealish at the end of last season, the results and performances haven’t been very good, if not generally pretty shocking
I'm not trying to disprove your point, I can't fathom why you speak only of Grealish.
We had the best player in Grealish. We also had the best centre forward in Tammy. The best midfielder in McGinn
The best centre half in Mings. We went up because of all of these players being much better than their peers, yet you're somehow implying it doesn't count because we had much better players, so Smith cannot take any credit. It's as ridiculous as saying Real cannot count the European Cups they won with Ronaldo because they didn't do it with Kevin Muscatt in their midfield.
You're saying Smith can't take credit for turning us around, having us play some of the best football we had played since Brian Little. Do you go to games, were you at Derby? Could you believe what you were seeing with how good we were? Were you one of the 3000 trying to remember the last time we should have scored 7 or 8, without exaggeration away from home?
We went on a poor run, Grealish came back and inspired us and we went on the best run since cricket playing Methodists got bored during winter and decided to do something about it.
This year we're in a league where the quality is significantly higher, the learning curve significantly steeper, but where, up until the 8th December we had been competitive, if naive and wasteful.
We were exposed, horribly, against Leicester, made doubly worse by losing our biggest leader at the back in Mings. We've collapsed into poor form and fit a streaky pattern of Smith's career at Walsall, Brentford and us last season until something clicked second half, pre-Grealish, at Stoke.
Our attacking players aren't up to it in this division in my view, certainly not yet at any rate. I think its cost us all season that lack of pace, lack of clinical chance taking, but I'm hoping I see a Stoke away result tomorrow and a January to add players. You're hoping to be proved right.
It's amazing how far people will go to try and be proved right once they dig their heels in. To the point where they will get a kick out of the clubs adversity just so they can come on here and say "i told you so" I gave up reading the comments when the 3-3 draw against Sheffield Utd at home was described as a "freak last 10 minutes" when it should of read "a brilliant come back in the last 10 minutes" I'm still hoping that Dean & co will turn things around even though my faith is diminishing. If it doesn't work out and the inevitable happens i'll wish him well and thank him for some special memories after years of purgatory watching the Villa and be grateful that we were saved from the abyss by our owners and their appointment of Smith in the first place.
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According to Opta we're doing better than expected... clicky (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50822875)
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While it's easy to hammer player recruitment in hindsight this group of players looked perfectly fine just a month or two ago and then almost beating Liverpool in what would have been a very deserved result. That we have a manager who throughout the season has been tactically naive late in games, immensely stubborn in his approach and has become increasingly defensive in his outlook and accusatory as results became poorer is for me the biggest issue we are facing.
I am very much in the camp that Dean Smith must shoulder the majority of the blame for what has gone wrong so far. He gave us all the impression that he was an astute football manager who had a specific gameplan for each opponent and one that irrespective of the opponent would see us trying to win. The evidence is very much to the contrary. He has one plan and our possession stats of late suggest he is trying to avoid defeat rather than play to win. He hasn't sorted out our defensive issues. All too often we are overrun in midfield and our players still make stupid errors throughout the game. Those things should have been fixed by now. It's on the manager to do that with his staff, with his players; to send them out best prepared to get positive results. For me, there are no signs that is happening now, or more worryingly is about to change any time soon.
You've contradicted yourself a few times here - you say the players are fine then point out the continued defensive issues, stupid errors and getting continuously over run in midfield.
The players have never looked perfectly fine - Targett is a defensive liability, Nakamba/Luiz have been error prone since day 1. Trezeguet and Jota have never really contributed and El-Ghazi is probably a sub rather than regular starter.
I agree that his tactical intransigence is a major issue (and that he has previous form in this regard) but you simply can't just blame Smith.
On a positive note I don't think we are that far off having what's needed to scrape through - but money needs to be spent and the management team (ie not just Smith) need to have a plan B.
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The 'solely down to Grealish' theory falls down by looking at the league table on tbe day Smith was appointed. Grealish certainly hadn't had much of an effect for Steve Bruce.
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The 'solely down to Grealish' theory falls down by looking at the league table on tbe day Smith was appointed. Grealish certainly hadn't had much of an effect for Steve Bruce.
It also doesn't account for the turn around starting at 16:02 at Stoke. That second half performance was the opposite to what we saw first half and much more in tune with the 900 record breaking minutes that followed.
That's not me downplaying Grealish, he's a wonderful player. But as you attest, he was a wonderful player August-October and in the two previous seasons. They didn't end with promotion.
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Yep, quite why someone isn’t willing to give Smith seemingly one iota of credit for getting us promoted I’ll never understand.
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The 'solely down to Grealish' theory falls down by looking at the league table on tbe day Smith was appointed. Grealish certainly hadn't had much of an effect for Steve Bruce.
Although there are quotes from Jack himself saying his head wasn't really in it for those first couple of months of the season after the Spurs move fell through, and the club had told him he had to be sold.
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This very same squad without Grealish also came within a few minutes of beating Liverpool...until they lost concentration and fucked it up at the end.
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Start with a base of recruitment and team selection.
Add a dash of team formation, tactics and intransigence.
Include a smidgen of injuries, bad luck and VAR.
And there you have it. Someone left the cake out in the rain.
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So things started going Pete Tong towards the end of October which coincides with a really tough run of fixtures starting with Man City away, and the 11 league games since have only yielded 7 points from a possible 33:
PLD: 11
W: 2
D: 1
L: 8
F: 10
A: 23
GD: -13
Take out the Man City game so it’s just the 10 games over November and December, and it still doesn’t look much better...
PLD: 10
W: 2
D: 1
L: 7
F: 10
A: 20
GD: -10
That is relegation form and likely to get most managers the tin tack. Given how the fixtures pan out, I just don’t see how he keeps his job if we lose tomorrow and it would be a big risk to back him in the transfer market rather than give the window to a new manager, however I imagine most of the players would already have been identified by now by our expert “executive player transfer committee”.
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Yep, quite why someone isn’t willing to give Smith seemingly one iota of credit for getting us promoted I’ll never understand.
Smith undoubtedly galvanized the club and gave it a lift. He also got the best out of Jack.
However, there was also the dodgy run last winter- as bad as anything under Bruce, and arguably di Matteo also. I also found his comments, was it around West Brom away, about the whole league fearing Aston Villa a little bit odd? Those comments blew up in his face given the crap run we then went on.
We all want the best for him, if he can turn it around it would be great. However, the current 'questions' about him are justified because it hasn't quite been good enough with too many points chucked away through bad decisions.
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At the end of the day, if a manager is going to get grief when things go wrong, he should receive credit when it goes right and for last season, he definatley deserves that.
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Having to get an entire squad in the summer hasn’t helped. Also we look like a championship side at times. As for Deano, nice bloke but it’s like keeping Neville chamberlain because he avoided us entering the war in 1938 and gave us a year to rearm. We need a Churchill to smash forward. Lose tomorrow and questions will have to be asked. Unlike the chumps division you can’t go on ten game poor runs and expect to survive in this league
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The 'solely down to Grealish' theory falls down by looking at the league table on tbe day Smith was appointed. Grealish certainly hadn't had much of an effect for Steve Bruce.
Certainly Smith got the best out of Jack at that level. I'm just very unconvinced he's the man to do it at this one.
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We lost a few big characters in the summer ( Hutton Whelan Jedi) clear out and replaced them with inexperience.
I don’t think you can under estimate The value having blokes like this around even though they were physically not up to the Prem.
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The 'solely down to Grealish' theory falls down by looking at the league table on tbe day Smith was appointed. Grealish certainly hadn't had much of an effect for Steve Bruce.
I don’t know the answer to this, but where were we when Dean took over and when Jack came back from injury? I’m not saying Smith had nothing to do with us getting promoted, he certainly did, we did really well when he started and I thought automatic promotion was nailed on. Then we had a shocking spell where we looked to be out of the playoffs. Jack came back and we went on our amazing run.
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We lost a few big characters in the summer ( Hutton Whelan Jedi) clear out and replaced them with inexperience.
I don’t think you can under estimate The value having blokes like this around even though they were physically not up to the Prem.
I remember hearing Jedinak was very vocal during training. He expected high standards, even if he wasn't 100% fit, or in the team.
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The 'solely down to Grealish' theory falls down by looking at the league table on tbe day Smith was appointed. Grealish certainly hadn't had much of an effect for Steve Bruce.
Grealish was pretty good for Steve Bruce as well and I actually think Bruce improved Jack quite a lot. I wanted Bruce gone when he went and thought he should have gone after the play offs, but we did win 7 in a row under him and get to a play off final as well. So it’s hardly as though Bruce did nothing with Grealish, but of course with the resources available to him, Bruce underachieved
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We lost a few big characters in the summer ( Hutton Whelan Jedi) clear out and replaced them with inexperience.
I don’t think you can under estimate The value having blokes like this around even though they were physically not up to the Prem.
I remember hearing Jedinak was very vocal during training. He expected high standards, even if he wasn't 100% fit, or in the team.
dont know if you have seen the Off the ball You Tube with Neville and Keane. What struck me was the stuff about characters, dedication professionalism and standards being set by players.
It looks like that is seriously lacking in this set up.
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It looks like everything is wrong with our set-up if you read all the threads.
The owners haven't put enough in or lack backbone. The coaches are all out of their depth. The defence are shit (apart from Mings it seems, but even he gets a load) the midfield are crap apart from McGinn and as for the forwards.......
Honestly, I know we're on a bad run but can those of you who think we're down, going down, or just the worst side ever, actually think of a positive?
You'd think, if you were new here, that we were back in the O'Leary/Lambert/McLeish/Garde/Tactics Tim/Colcannon times.
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Maybe it's something this alleged players' meeting looked to address.
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It looks like everything is wrong with our set-up if you read all the threads.
The owners haven't put enough in or lack backbone. The coaches are all out of their depth. The defence are shit (apart from Mings it seems, but even he gets a load) the midfield are crap apart from McGinn and as for the forwards.......
Honestly, I know we're on a bad run but can those of you who think we're down, going down, or just the worst side ever, actually think of a positive?
You'd think, if you were new here, that we were back in the O'Leary/Lambert/McLeish/Garde/Tactics Tim/Colcannon times.
We aren’t cut adrift yet
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While it's easy to hammer player recruitment in hindsight this group of players looked perfectly fine just a month or two ago and then almost beating Liverpool in what would have been a very deserved result. That we have a manager who throughout the season has been tactically naive late in games, immensely stubborn in his approach and has become increasingly defensive in his outlook and accusatory as results became poorer is for me the biggest issue we are facing.
I am very much in the camp that Dean Smith must shoulder the majority of the blame for what has gone wrong so far. He gave us all the impression that he was an astute football manager who had a specific gameplan for each opponent and one that irrespective of the opponent would see us trying to win. The evidence is very much to the contrary. He has one plan and our possession stats of late suggest he is trying to avoid defeat rather than play to win. He hasn't sorted out our defensive issues. All too often we are overrun in midfield and our players still make stupid errors throughout the game. Those things should have been fixed by now. It's on the manager to do that with his staff, with his players; to send them out best prepared to get positive results. For me, there are no signs that is happening now, or more worryingly is about to change any time soon.
You've contradicted yourself a few times here - you say the players are fine then point out the continued defensive issues, stupid errors and getting continuously over run in midfield.
The players have never looked perfectly fine - Targett is a defensive liability, Nakamba/Luiz have been error prone since day 1. Trezeguet and Jota have never really contributed and El-Ghazi is probably a sub rather than regular starter.
I agree that his tactical intransigence is a major issue (and that he has previous form in this regard) but you simply can't just blame Smith.
On a positive note I don't think we are that far off having what's needed to scrape through - but money needs to be spent and the management team (ie not just Smith) need to have a plan B.
It’s not a contradiction. We played really well in many of those games to get the lead. What we didn’t do late on is keep it because the manger didn’t change personnel. Tactics remained the same. Tactics we all like that were open and attacking. But it’s got to be a mix of approaches depending on the situation. We all watched as our players tired late on and the opponent manager made changes and freshened things up. Or just changed their approach. And we also watched teams scout ours as the season went on and identified our weaknesses.
I’m not saying for a second the players haven’t made stupid errors. They have and it’s part of the learning process at this level. It’s ruthless. And we obviously didn’t buy top tier players because frankly as a promoted club we couldn’t. But many of our issues are self inflicted and has been down to the naive tactics employed. And as the season has gone on it has chipped away at player confidence and belief.
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It looks like everything is wrong with our set-up if you read all the threads.
The owners haven't put enough in or lack backbone. The coaches are all out of their depth. The defence are shit (apart from Mings it seems, but even he gets a load) the midfield are crap apart from McGinn and as for the forwards.......
Honestly, I know we're on a bad run but can those of you who think we're down, going down, or just the worst side ever, actually think of a positive?
You'd think, if you were new here, that we were back in the O'Leary/Lambert/McLeish/Garde/Tactics Tim/Colcannon times.
I think a lot of it is opinions about what has happened and why. Maybe we have had that sinking feeling too often because of some of those you mention.
The positive is there are games left , a transfer window and we have some good players.
Sadly I think these are outweighed by the negatives.
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It looks like everything is wrong with our set-up if you read all the threads.
The owners haven't put enough in or lack backbone. The coaches are all out of their depth. The defence are shit (apart from Mings it seems, but even he gets a load) the midfield are crap apart from McGinn and as for the forwards.......
Honestly, I know we're on a bad run but can those of you who think we're down, going down, or just the worst side ever, actually think of a positive?
You'd think, if you were new here, that we were back in the O'Leary/Lambert/McLeish/Garde/Tactics Tim/Colcannon times.
I think a lot of it is opinions about what has happened and why. Maybe we have had that sinking feeling too often because of some of those you mention.
The positive is there are games left , a transfer window and we have some good players.
Sadly I think these are outweighed by the negatives.
I think your first sentence is the biggest point about this. We've seen it so many times that the worst is expected.
It's anybody's guess what could transpire. We may hit form and do enough, we might not, regardless of who is manager or which players we have.
There's an argument that whilst we did ok in the games against the so-called Top 6 they have done enough to get results, maybe they were toying with us.
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While it's easy to hammer player recruitment in hindsight this group of players looked perfectly fine just a month or two ago and then almost beating Liverpool in what would have been a very deserved result. That we have a manager who throughout the season has been tactically naive late in games, immensely stubborn in his approach and has become increasingly defensive in his outlook and accusatory as results became poorer is for me the biggest issue we are facing.
I am very much in the camp that Dean Smith must shoulder the majority of the blame for what has gone wrong so far. He gave us all the impression that he was an astute football manager who had a specific gameplan for each opponent and one that irrespective of the opponent would see us trying to win. The evidence is very much to the contrary. He has one plan and our possession stats of late suggest he is trying to avoid defeat rather than play to win. He hasn't sorted out our defensive issues. All too often we are overrun in midfield and our players still make stupid errors throughout the game. Those things should have been fixed by now. It's on the manager to do that with his staff, with his players; to send them out best prepared to get positive results. For me, there are no signs that is happening now, or more worryingly is about to change any time soon.
You've contradicted yourself a few times here - you say the players are fine then point out the continued defensive issues, stupid errors and getting continuously over run in midfield.
The players have never looked perfectly fine - Targett is a defensive liability, Nakamba/Luiz have been error prone since day 1. Trezeguet and Jota have never really contributed and El-Ghazi is probably a sub rather than regular starter.
I agree that his tactical intransigence is a major issue (and that he has previous form in this regard) but you simply can't just blame Smith.
On a positive note I don't think we are that far off having what's needed to scrape through - but money needs to be spent and the management team (ie not just Smith) need to have a plan B.
It’s not a contradiction. We played really well in many of those games to get the lead. What we didn’t do late on is keep it because the manger didn’t change personnel. Tactics remained the same. Tactics we all like that were open and attacking. But it’s got to be a mix of approaches depending on the situation. We all watched as our players tired late on and the opponent manager made changes and freshened things up. Or just changed their approach. And we also watched teams scout ours as the season went on and identified our weaknesses.
I’m not saying for a second the players haven’t made stupid errors. They have and it’s part of the learning process at this level. It’s ruthless. And we obviously didn’t buy top tier players because frankly as a promoted club we couldn’t. But many of our issues are self inflicted and has been down to the naive tactics employed. And as the season has gone on it has chipped away at player confidence and belief.
The tactics are an issue without doubt.
But so are the quality of the players (and when you look at the bench and how they've performed when given opportunities of late, then perhaps you might have some sympathy for Smith sticking with the same personnel in the games we were winning earlier in the season).
Good players can disguise bad tactics & vice versa. No point in thinking you can blame it all on on one and not the other. Both weaknesses need addressing.
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Aston Villa prepare for make-or-break month as they seek to avoid 'disastrous' relegation back to the Championship
John Percy
31 DECEMBER 2019 • 2:38PM
An hour after Aston Villa’s return to the Premier League was secured at Wembley, co-owner Nassef Sawiris made a rare appearance in front of the television cameras.
As Villa's fans wildly celebrated promotion, Sawiris proudly insisted: "The sky is the limit. Our ambition was not just to get promoted but to do well in the Premier League.”
After a spend of £127 million on 12 new players, optimism was sky-high in the summer and even manager Dean Smith was talking of ambitions far higher than mere survival.
Seven months later, the mood has changed dramatically. Villa find themselves in the relegation zone after five defeats in six matches, with Smith under increasing pressure and a season in serious danger of unravelling.
Smith is “one of their own”, a Villa supporter since the 1970s, but that will not spare him from scrutiny over the alarming run of form. Many Villa fans are in a strange place: criticising Smith over tactical naivety and team selection, while desperate for him to succeed.
Relegation would be a disaster for many reasons. The financial ramifications of carrying an enormous wage bill back into the Championship would be immense, and Villa are certain to face scrutiny from the English Football League over whether spending under their former owner Dr Tony Xia broke their Profitability and Sustainability rules. Their talismanic captain Jack Grealish, John McGinn, Tyrone Mings and Tom Heaton, plus many others, will probably be sold.
Jack Grealish - Aston Villa prepare for make-or-break month as they seek to avoid 'disastrous' relegation back to the Championship. It all piles pressure on Smith, who will know that a defeat to Burnley at Turf Moor on Wednesday, together with losses in the Carabao Cup semi-final to Leicester and the FA Cup to Fulham, could leave him vulnerable barely a month after signing a new contract. The manager said he hoped the 3-0 defeat to 10-man Watford last weekend would represent "a line in the sand for players to start stepping up” but he needs that response sooner rather than later.
Villa are now working hard on January targets, which was not the plan a month ago. The club's hierarchy did not intend to make any major signings but the landscape has now shifted, particularly after the loss of McGinn for three months with a broken ankle. Midfielders are a priority in the transfer window, ideally with experience of playing in the top flight.
In the summer, the strategy was clear: reduce the average age, reduce the average wage and increase the quality. All outfield players, preferably, had to be under the age of 25 and the recruitment drive was spearheaded by Jesús Vicente García, the club’s sporting director better known as Suso.
It was Suso who pushed for signings such as joint-record buy Wesley, Douglas Luiz and Matt Targett. Smith agreed on all of them, with his own picks of Mings and Tom Heaton also arriving in the summer.
Predictably, a gross spend of £127m led to accusations of “doing a Fulham”: promotion via the play-offs, followed by an expensive trolley-dash. In truth, Villa’s recruitment was cohesive and strategically planned, while every player was scouted extensively from last November onwards.
That spend effectively worked out at £10m a player – relatively cheap in the modern era – and such a drastic rebuild was needed after 12 summer departures. But recent results suggest it has not worked. A lack of experience runs through the whole spine of the team.
Much of the scrutiny has been on Wesley, the Brazilian striker signed from Club Brugge who has not scored in the league since Oct 5. It is understood the main sources of frustration within the coaching staff have been over the performances of the wingers, Anwar El Ghazi and Trezeguet.
But there are also huge concerns over the defence, and even former England captain John Terry, one of Smith's assistants, is under scrutiny now. No team has let in more league goals from headers (9) or corners 8 than Villa this season.
Smith is a fine coach, renowned for building teams at Walsall and Brentford, and will have learned more in the past five months than the nine years in management which preceded Villa’s return to the Premier League.
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"and the recruitment drive was spearheaded by Jesús Vicente García, the club’s sporting director better known as Suso."
Journalists eh?
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I thought the recruitment strategy in the summer was wrong and said so at the time. Subsequently the scouting in pursuit of that strategy is questionable. And once the season started the players haven't been anywhere near consistent enough and our manager turned out be not as effective as we thought. The finger needs to be pointed at several areas.
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It's like he went to Wiki to get his name and only copied and pasted the first bit of it.
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Garcia OUT!
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I thought the recruitment strategy in the summer was wrong and said so at the time. Subsequently the scouting in pursuit of that strategy is questionable. And once the season started the players haven't been anywhere near consistent enough and our manager turned out be not as effective as we thought. The finger needs to be pointed at several areas.
I agree. There's also an interesting bit in the interview with both Purslow and Smith after the play off final, where Purslow says something like "and we'll have a team of players that Dean has...[big pause] that fit Dean's style of play."
It's been a disaster. The intentions were no doubt sound, but the actual implementation just hasn't worked.
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We are carrying too many passengers, both wingers have moments but are very inconsistent, Hourihane has scored vital goals for us but disappears too often and of course Wesley, I don't understand the thinking when they bought him because his game hasn't changed he has never been prolific in front of goal and I don't think he ever will he is not a natural. As most I believe what we are missing are seasoned premiership players even if they are older than we prefer.
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To kind of pinpoint when it all went wrong...we were putting in decent performances but unfortunately more often than not on the wrong end of results up until 8th December when Leicester came to Villa Park and tore us a new one.
We started that game well, went toe to toe with them and could have been in the lead if AEG didn’t have a brain fart in front of the North Stand...then Tyrone goes down injured but he stays on and we go 1-0 down. The next 23 days will go down as a Prince Andrew of all royal cluster fucks.
So my point...we looked ok until Tyrone got inured and have been shite ever since. Could it be that we are not only reliant on Jack but also the leadership qualities of Tyrone. Throw SJMs injury in to the mix and a fragile team is weakened even more with 2 of its best players out.
Football isn’t complicated and more often than not it comes down to the quality of the players on the pitch, and unfortunately this squad isn’t good enough without 2 of its best players to help carry it successfully through games.
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I’d say that’s very well put KRS. I was really enjoying this season and even though we had lost or drawn games we should have won the football was enjoyable to watch. I think back to earlier in the season and I often saw posts on this board of “I love this team” etc.
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Yes, a well written post and mostly true. You do need a bit of character and leaership in the team and Mings and McGinn give you that. It's why throwing the likes of Lansbury into the midfield away from home was a poor idea.
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To kind of pinpoint when it all went wrong...we were putting in decent performances but unfortunately more often than not on the wrong end of results up until 8th December when Leicester came to Villa Park and tore us a new one.
We started that game well, went toe to toe with them and could have been in the lead if AEG didn’t have a brain fart in front of the North Stand...then Tyrone goes down injured but he stays on and we go 1-0 down. The next 23 days will go down as a Prince Andrew of all royal cluster fucks.
So my point...we looked ok until Tyrone got inured and have been shite ever since. Could it be that we are not only reliant on Jack but also the leadership qualities of Tyrone. Throw SJMs injury in to the mix and a fragile team is weakened even more with 2 of its best players out.
Football isn’t complicated and more often than not it comes down to the quality of the players on the pitch, and unfortunately this squad isn’t good enough without 2 of its best players to help carry it successfully through games.
What kind of group capitulates after one poor performance ? Look at Southampton, beaten 9-0 but have turned it around since. Our crew have thrown it in.
Wesley is hopeless but it's not even the biggest problem in the team. We have a chronically unbalanced midfield that teams have walked through since the start of the season. With McGinn and Grealish in there I expected that to be our strongest line but it hasn't been.
Think there is an element of other teams and coaches figuring us out too. Our hopeless left back which teams routinely targett, crazy high defensive line, woeful workrate from front three and lack of presence in midfield.
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My point was about that our bad run of form has coincided with Tyrone getting injured...and surprise surprise, it’s no coincidence that he comes back in today and we instantly look a much better team.
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My point was about that our bad run of form has coincided with Tyrone getting injured...and surprise surprise, it’s no coincidence that he comes back in today and we instantly look a much better team.
Him and Grealish are classy players. We need more of that type and a few of the summer signings to step up.