Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: IFWaters on April 27, 2019, 08:41:56 PM
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Just for fun, which 20 teams would you like to see in the Premier League ? (Villa obviously). Ive gone with mainly big city clubs with big grounds and fanbases plus a smattering of 'town' football clubs. Ive tried to have a regional balance. The likes of Watford, Bournemouth & Brighton have all done really well, but to me, theyre just not big clubs.
North - 5 teams - Newcastle, Sunderland, Leeds, Sheff Weds & Sheff Utd
North West - 4 teams - Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool, Everton
Midlands - 6 teams - Villa, Wolves, WBA, Derby, Forest, Leicester
London - 5 teams - Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea, West Ham , Palace
The only way I think you could improve the list above is to swap out a couple of the 'town' clubs (?Derby, Wolves?) for Celtic and Rangers ..... but thats a whole different debate.
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I'm not sure a club with 0 trophies and 3 top 10 finishes in their history meet your criteria :P
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I'm not sure a club with 0 trophies and 3 top 10 finishes in their history meet your criteria :P
Palace?
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Palace? Crystal Fucking Palace!!!!
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Football League Division One.
No teams from London.
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suggest an alternative then
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PNE, Portsmouth, Huddersfield.
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suggest an alternative then
Ipswich.
A major force in the early 60s (Ramsey) and the 80s (Robson).
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suggest an alternative then
Ipswich, Norwich, Blackburn or Southampton
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I'd kick Arsenal out, make them start at step 10 and earn their way to the top flight for once.
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You've got teams like Crystal Palace and have forgotten Southampton. Are you off your tits?
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Cardiff, Norwich, Saints, Burnley, Portsmouth, Bolton, Blackburn, Preston and Ipswich all have a claim ahead of Palace.
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If you were going to have an ideal geographic split then it would be better if Plymouth and/or one of the Bristol clubs were actually any good.
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If you were going to have an ideal geographic split then it would be better if Plymouth and/or one of the Bristol clubs were actually any good.
Carlisle would have a massive shout too.
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It's almost as if it's better to make teams earn the right by being promoted and winning games.
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It's almost as if it's better to make teams earn the right by being promoted and winning games.
Apart from us. We should have an automatic place by dint of it being our idea.
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If you were going to have an ideal geographic split then it would be better if Plymouth and/or one of the Bristol clubs were actually any good.
How about Plymouth, Carlisle, Dover Athletic, and Berwick Rangers ?
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Southampton are one of those clubs that gave up their claim when they moved to an identikit shed. Granted Derby did that too but they are a proper football town. I quite like Selhurst Park but I will bow to the mob and throw them out in favour of Norwich, another proper football town.
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Southampton are one of those clubs that gave up their claim when they moved to an identikit shed.
Unlike Leicester? :P
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It's almost as if it's better to make teams earn the right by being promoted and winning games.
Apart from us. We should have an automatic place by dint of it being our idea.
promotion and relegation ? what about a franchise system where you can move the teams to the highest bidder?
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It's almost as if it's better to make teams earn the right by being promoted and winning games.
Unless you're Arsenal.
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We’re all overlooking the very strong claims of Glossop North End, Darwen and Bradford Park Avenue.
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I've always thought that if Plymouth could ever get their shit together they could be a decent club.
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The top 20 teams from this table?
https://www.worldfootball.net/alltime_table/eng-premier-league/
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If Old Corinthians ever give it another go we'll all be playing for second place.
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I've always thought that if Plymouth could ever get their shit together they could be a decent club.
I agree. They’ve surely got a decent catchment area for support.
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The top 20 teams from this table?
https://www.worldfootball.net/alltime_table/eng-premier-league/
I wouldn't be having Darwen all the way down there. Massive club.
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I've always thought that if Plymouth could ever get their shit together they could be a decent club.
I agree. They’ve surely got a decent catchment area for support.
Big cats are notoriously fickle glory hunters.
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The top 20 teams from this table?
https://www.worldfootball.net/alltime_table/eng-premier-league/
I wouldn't be having Darwen all the way down there. Massive club.
The benefit of relying on that table is that Small Heath aren’t in the top 20.
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to put it another way, I preferred the premier league in the 1990s when :
a) we were in it
b) the results werent so predictable
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And Bury are above Palace (!)
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to put it another way, I preferred the premier league in the 1990s when :
a) we were in it
b) the results werent so predictable
A bit like the Championship in the 2010s!
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And Bury are above Palace (!)
They have also won the cup twice.
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I'd kick Arsenal out, make them start at step 10 and earn their way to the top flight for once.
Yes, they somehow wangled their way into the top flight after WW1.
It all depends on the era that people grew up in or remember most.
Having said that, I can't see how Palace would ever make anyone's top league. Their record over the years is less than average at best. Sheffield Utd would be another one that wouldn't make it, but just my view.
Also, a fair number of the current top flight reads like the third or fourth tier!
Burnley
Huddersfield
Watford
Bournemouth
Cardiff
Brighton
However, Chelsea and Manchester City would have struggled to make a top list if we were back in the 80s or 90s.
But as I say, it all depends on what you're used to... but Palace wouldn't make it under any criteria.
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Quite strange, to me anyway, that a 20 year old won't think of Forest, Sheff Weds and Leeds as top flight clubs and almost certainly won't remember any of them ever being in the top flight.
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Villa and the nineteen weakest clubs on the planet. Obviously.
Mind you, not sure I can be arsed with the hassle of playing Small Heath again.
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Villa and the nineteen weakest clubs on the planet. Obviously.
Mind you, not sure I can be arsed with the hassle of playing Small Heath again.
And you’d have divided loyalties when we played Clyde.
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Derby and Wolverhampton are both cities, BTW.
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Villa and the nineteen weakest clubs on the planet. Obviously.
Mind you, not sure I can be arsed with the hassle of playing Small Heath again.
And you’d have divided loyalties when we played Clyde.
Football would be the winner.
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One day you'll give up trying to convince any of us that a club named after the orangutan from Every Which Way But Loose is real.
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They're real and they are going up.
Well, maybe.
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The top 20 teams from this table?
https://www.worldfootball.net/alltime_table/eng-premier-league/
I wouldn't be having Darwen all the way down there. Massive club.
it's the survival of the fittest
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The largest towns without a League club.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2003/may/29/theknowledge.sport
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The top 20 teams from this table?
https://www.worldfootball.net/alltime_table/eng-premier-league/
I wouldn't be having Darwen all the way down there. Massive club.
it's the survival of the fittest
Bravo.
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The largest towns without a League club.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2003/may/29/theknowledge.sport
I always thought it was Bedford.
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The largest towns without a League club.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2003/may/29/theknowledge.sport
I thought it was Poole.
I always thought it was Bedford.
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im from derby and its a town. its got a cathedral, but its a town, a proper football town.
Maybe there should be space for a North Lancs football town ? Preston / Blackburn / Wigan / Bolton or Burnley ?
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This is interesting as well:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_English_Football_League_clubs?wprov=sfti1
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Sorry, it's a city. It was awarded city status in 1977. Having a cathedral hasn't been a prerequisite for city status since the nineteenth century, by the way.
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West Ham and Burnley should be excluded under article 1874 aka the "kit stealing wankers" clause.
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I wouldn't mind one team per nickname, like in America. Get rid of all but one each of the tedious Uniteds, Citys and Towns and bring back Bradford Park Avenue, New Brighton Tower and Middlesbrough Ironopolis.
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‘New Brighton Tower’ is just brilliant.
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You have the San Francisco 49ers in the US, and in England you have the Birmingham -9ers.
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‘New Brighton Tower’ is just brilliant.
Stadium capacity...
100,000.
😮
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‘New Brighton Tower’ is just brilliant.
Stadium capacity...
100,000.
😮
Average attendance 1,000. Empty seats my lord par excellence.
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‘New Brighton Tower’ is just brilliant.
They had sub 1000 gates in a stadium with an 80k capacity.
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Cardiff, Norwich, Saints, Burnley, Portsmouth, Bolton, Blackburn, Preston and Ipswich all have a claim ahead of Palace.
And QPR
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‘New Brighton Tower’ is just brilliant.
They had sub 1000 gates in a stadium with an 80k capacity.
The English Queens Park.
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You have the San Francisco 49ers in the US, and in England you have the Birmingham -9ers.
49ers was a great little bar while it lasted
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You have the San Francisco 49ers in the US, and in England you have the Birmingham -9ers.
49ers was a great little bar while it lasted
My problem with 49ers was always having some woman's minge somewhere between my elbow and my ear.
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And on the other side of the coin I've seen Villa play 5 current non league clubs when we were in divisions 2 and 3.
It's great that the Football league provides such different tales of success and woe and why the Premier league and the European Champions league should be forced to stop rewarding the top clubs .
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I wouldn't mind one team per nickname, like in America. Get rid of all but one each of the tedious Uniteds, Citys and Towns and bring back Bradford Park Avenue, New Brighton Tower and Middlesbrough Ironopolis.
Football clubs should have to play by their original name and use their original nickname (Small Heath, Newton Heath, Chelsea should be known as "The Pensioners" etc). Should absolutely be a rule.
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I wouldn't mind one team per nickname, like in America. Get rid of all but one each of the tedious Uniteds, Citys and Towns and bring back Bradford Park Avenue, New Brighton Tower and Middlesbrough Ironopolis.
Football clubs should have to play by their original name and use their original nickname (Small Heath, Newton Heath, Chelsea should be known as "The Pensioners" etc). Should absolutely be a rule.
This would have the added effect of giving us the number 1 ball in the FA Cup 3rd round draw, as Arsenal and AFC Bournemouth would return to being Dial Square and Boscombe St. John's Institute respectively, unless anyone knows of another team that would revert to a name before ours alphabetically?
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Man City = Ardwick AFC.
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I've always thought that if Plymouth could ever get their shit together they could be a decent club.
I agree. They’ve surely got a decent catchment area for support.
I know loads of Argyle fans that are Plymouth based and also throughout Devon and Cornwall. Problem is, they all support other teams as well.
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No London clubs as the only London ground I enjoyed going to was Highbury (although we did well at White Hart Lane for a while). Nice reasonably easy away journeys so Small Heath, Smethwick, Wolves, Coventry (they'll be back ;)), Derby, Forest, Stoke, Leicester. The two Merseyside clubs, two Manchester clubs and two Sheffield clubs were always fairly easy journeys. After loads of horrible journeys to Selhurst Park to watch us play Charlton, Wimbledon and Palace (I think I have seen us win there once in the Dalian/umbrella game) I would be quite happy never to go there again.
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If we are going to have a London club, I quite like Craven Cottage. But they would only be allowed in on the agreement that they let us win there at least occasionally.
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Man City = Ardwick AFC.
Nah, they were originally St.Mark's (West Gorton) FC.
Think Villa are the only west midlands team who'd keep their name:
- Small Health Alliance
- West Bromwich Strollers
- St.Luke's
- Walsall Town Swifts
- Singers FC (if you count Coventry City)
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West Ham and Burnley should be excluded under article 1874 aka the "kit stealing wankers" clause.
Burnley adopted claret & blue as a tribute/mark of respect to Aston Villa as (long ago) the elite team of the football league(s)
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West Ham and Burnley should be excluded under article 1874 aka the "kit stealing wankers" clause.
Burnley adopted claret & blue as a tribute/mark of respect to Aston Villa as (long ago) the elite team of the football league(s)
I had no idea, but from now on it's their away strip!
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West Ham and Burnley should be excluded under article 1874 aka the "kit stealing wankers" clause.
Burnley adopted claret & blue as a tribute/mark of respect to Aston Villa as (long ago) the elite team of the football league(s)
I had no idea, but from now on it's their away strip!
Sounds good to me!
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"The style of having contrasting body and sleeves was introduced in the late 19th century by Ollie Whateley. The distinctive design became very successful and it was often referred to as the Villa style."
Trabzonspor also play in claret and blue as a tribute to us.
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"The style of having contrasting body and sleeves was introduced in the late 19th century by Ollie Whateley. The distinctive design became very successful and it was often referred to as the Villa style."
Trabzonspor also play in claret and blue as a tribute to us.
But why do we play in claret and blue?
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A little known fact : we were once known as Abacus Villa
You could count on us to win things :)
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But why do we play in claret and blue?
I know it's been said as an influence of Hearts and Rangers but I can't recall there being seeing a definitive answer to it.
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Wasn’t it once thought as MacGregor was a draper by trade he knocked up the two materials? The Hearts and Rangers thing can’t be true as they play in Maroon not Claret and Royal Blue not Light Blue.
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Our first strip seems to have been claret and royal blue, so the Rangers link could be true. Hearts is less likely as they didn't play in maroon until 1877 and we had been playing in claret since our founding.
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We didn't play in proper claret and blue until about the time we invented league football.
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The myth that McGregor brought down the colours of his favourite Scottish teams isn't true as he had no interest in football until he arrived in Birmingham. The one about him having a couple of rolls of cloth he knocked up the shirts from was something I made up on the mailing list years ago and it's good to see it's still doing the rounds, although it's as likely a tale as any.
Ollie Wheatley, a commercial artist by trade, was asked to knock up a design and is thought to have produced the claret arms/blue sleeves combination we've (usually) had ever since but the colours were in use by then. Where they came from isn't known, but Simon Inglis told me a theory. There were a lot of big houses in the area where the Villa were based, they invariably had Minton floor tiling and the most popular colours were dark claret (or chocolate) and blue so we copied them. That's as likely as anything else.
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Our first strip seems to have been claret and royal blue, so the Rangers link could be true. Hearts is less likely as they didn't play in maroon until 1877 and we had been playing in claret since our founding.
Were Blues the original (part) kit-stealers then?
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The myth that McGregor brought down the colours of his favourite Scottish teams isn't true as he had no interest in football until he arrived in Birmingham. The one about him having a couple of rolls of cloth he knocked up the shirts from was something I made up on the mailing list years ago and it's good to see it's still doing the rounds, although it's as likely a tale as any.
Ollie Wheatley, a commercial artist by trade, was asked to knock up a design and is thought to have produced the claret arms/blue sleeves combination we've (usually) had ever since but the colours were in use by then. Where they came from isn't known, but Simon Inglis told me a theory. There were a lot of big houses in the area where the Villa were based, they invariably had Minton floor tiling and the most popular colours were dark claret (or chocolate) and blue so we copied them. That's as likely as anything else.
Not sure if I've mentioned it before, but my long-deceased nan always reckoned that my great grandad (also called William) knew William McGregor, and that's why my grandad's side of the family are Villa fans. I've no way of knowing if this is true, but the dates match up. I've seen census information from that time (late 18th c.) that shows my ancestor was a draper as well, and I know from research that he had shops in Erdington and Witton, after he moved to Birmingham proper from the Black Country.
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All time top flight league table
(http://beta.ems.ladbiblegroup.com/s3/content/8ed69e725cc8cdd3ce5b41dc28fc28f8.jpg)
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Over 900 points off the top? Smith out.
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But why do we play in claret and blue?
I know it's been said as an influence of Hearts and Rangers but I can't recall there being seeing a definitive answer to it.
Thank fuck that's not true. I don't know how I'd be able to square being associated with the three most horrible clubs in Scotland (if you count former clubs).
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I doubt it's true but it's the one i;ve seen put forward the most.
Although it should be pointed out that saying it definitely isn't true cannot be correct when no one knows what the actual answer is. It's all just educated guesses.
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I doubt it's true but it's the one i;ve seen put forward the most.
Although it should be pointed out that saying it definitely isn't true cannot be correct when no one knows what the actual answer is. It's all just educated guesses.
It's another of those stories that only came about since the internet was discovered, like Ramsay being manager and that 21st November nonsense. Villa first wore claret & blue in 1887 - years before Hearts or Rangers won anything. There is no reason why we should have adopted anything like a variation of their colours.
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But you are still guessing no matter how logical a guess it is.
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I'm stating facts. Hearts and Rangers were virtually unknown in England in 1887 and we didn't use their colours in any case. Hearts is maroon and Rangers is royal blue.
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Maybe someone just liked the colours? Or they are linked with some school or other?
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I'm stating facts. Hearts and Rangers were virtually unknown in England in 1887 and we didn't use their colours in any case. Hearts is maroon and Rangers is royal blue.
It still isn't a fact. It cannot be when no one knows the actual answer.
Let's not forget you even said " it's as likely a tale as any" 2 hours ago. So if no one knows the correct answer, no answer is definitely wrong either.
So I reckon aliens chose the colours.
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I wonder whether Barry was choosing the colours instead of taking the penalty.
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What's the difference between maroon and claret?
The uniform of the school where I currently teach is described as a maroon jumper and a sky blue polo shirt. Whenever I'm charged with replacing the school's sports team kit, the various suppliers always refer to maroon, yet in reality it is usually some variation of what has passed for claret on one Villa kit or another over the seasons. Still, a rose by any other name and all that: I always ensure that there's one Greater Manchester primary school that take to the field looking like the Villa.
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We did apparently play in maroon in the early 1880s.
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I'm stating facts. Hearts and Rangers were virtually unknown in England in 1887 and we didn't use their colours in any case. Hearts is maroon and Rangers is royal blue.
It still isn't a fact. It cannot be when no one knows the actual answer.
Let's not forget you even said " it's as likely a tale as any" 2 hours ago. So if no one knows the correct answer, no answer is definitely wrong either.
So I reckon aliens chose the colours.
What I've said there are facts. The theory I put forward earlier is a lot more likely than picking colours that look a bit like those of two random clubs and putting them together in a eay that neither wore. What is known is that Ollie Wheatley was asked to come up with a design and what we ended up with was his creation.
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Who was Ollie Wheatley? A player? Director? Church person?
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He was a player.
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What I've said there are facts. The theory I put forward earlier is a lot more likely than picking colours that look a bit like those of two random clubs and putting them together in a eay that neither wore. What is known is that Ollie Wheatley was asked to come up with a design and what we ended up with was his creation.
I meant where the colours come from isn't fact.
It is impossible to say it wasn't xyz when no one can say it was abc.
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What I've said there are facts. The theory I put forward earlier is a lot more likely than picking colours that look a bit like those of two random clubs and putting them together in a eay that neither wore. What is known is that Ollie Wheatley was asked to come up with a design and what we ended up with was his creation.
I meant where the colours come from isn't fact.
It is impossible to say it wasn't xyz when no one can say it was abc.
But it is possible to discount the Scottish connection as there is no logic behind it.
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Some stuff says WM had no interest in football before Brum, others say he was watching football while still in Scotland. As such I don't believe any theory can be discounted, including my aliens one.
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Some stuff says WM had no interest in football before Brum, others say he was watching football while still in Scotland. As such I don't believe any theory can be discounted, including my aliens one.
Every reputable historian, plus John Lerwill, says he had no tangible interest, and in any case where he lived was a long way from Edinburgh.
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It's compelling but so is aliens.
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Can’t manipulate promotion and relegation otherwise the premiership would be full of mk dons and Salford city
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Well, the proto-villa colours seem to have come about (as chocolate/blue) in the 1886/7 season:
(http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Aston_Villa/images/aston-villa-1886-1887.gif)
Heart of Midlothian also played in a kind of claret & blue from 1876-1889:
(http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Scottish_Football_League/Heart_of_Midlothian/images/heart_of_midlothian-1878-1883-k.gif)
They'd have been reasonably prominent in Edinburgh, being the first association football club in the city & also the first side to have professional players in Scotland (in 1884 - against SFA rules, so they were fined & suspended for it). It seems plausible to me that there might been some link there.
Rangers don't really add anything to that though - they've played in their current colours throughout their history, and Hearts already had blue in the kit. In any case, this would've been also pre-old firm (the first Rangers-Celtic game was 1888 and in any case it Celtic's side was w
made of mostly guest Hibernian players) and Queen's Park would've dwarfed them in prominence.
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I would like to see Villa (obviously), Sheffield Wednesday, Nottingham Forrest, Derby County, Leeds, Sunderland, and West Brom all in the top flight. I would happily see Watford, Bournemouth, Crystal Palace, Huddersfield, Leicester City and Cardiff City and Brighton make space for them.
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Well, the proto-villa colours seem to have come about (as chocolate/blue) in the 1886/7 season:
(http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Aston_Villa/images/aston-villa-1886-1887.gif)
Heart of Midlothian also played in a kind of claret & blue from 1876-1889:
(http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Scottish_Football_League/Heart_of_Midlothian/images/heart_of_midlothian-1878-1883-k.gif)
They'd have been reasonably prominent in Edinburgh, being the first association football club in the city & also the first side to have professional players in Scotland (in 1884 - against SFA rules, so they were fined & suspended for it). It seems plausible to me that there might been some link there.
Rangers don't really add anything to that though - they've played in their current colours throughout their history, and Hearts already had blue in the kit. In any case, this would've been also pre-old firm (the first Rangers-Celtic game was 1888 and in any case it Celtic's side was w
made of mostly guest Hibernian players) and Queen's Park would've dwarfed them in prominence.
There was no link at all. I'm pretty sure we'd never played Hearts at that point and they were a relatively unsuccessful team who would have been little-known outside Edinburgh. Why we would have picked a sort-of similar shirt to the one they briefly wore makes no sense.
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There was no link at all. I'm pretty sure we'd never played Hearts at that point and they were a relatively unsuccessful team who would have been little-known outside Edinburgh. Why we would have picked a sort-of similar shirt to the one they briefly wore makes no sense.
Well, at the time it would've been the kit they'd used for practically their entire history - http://historicalkits.co.uk/Scottish_Football_League/Heart_of_Midlothian/Heart_of_Midlothian.htm
http://historicalkits.co.uk/Aston_Villa/Aston_Villa.htm
Anyways, my point was more that a Rangers+Hearts link was unlikely given Hearts played in claret & blue anyway. Hearts might be plausible still, although as you'd mentioned it's not likely to be a tribute to them seeing as they'd have been small fry compared to the Villa.