Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine

Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: georgevilla on March 22, 2019, 12:56:25 AM

Title: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: georgevilla on March 22, 2019, 12:56:25 AM
Was thinking earlier about which grounds have been the most largely unchanged since hillsborough (hillsborough ironically being one of them) and it got me thinking how much better villa park could’ve looked today if we’d followed suit. the holte could’ve been kept and filled in with seats just like at leeds and sheff wednesday or even reprofiled as the kop at bramall lane was. that’s always seemed like such a shame to me. the trinity of course we all know about. anyone know why it wasn’t just reprofiled and instead completely demolished and rebuilt? seems a mystery to me. anyway, as great as villa park is now, it could’ve been so much better in my opinion.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 22, 2019, 01:55:15 AM
From what's been said over the years, the Holte was too big to just bolt seats onto the terracing and the Trinity would have fallen down sooner rather than later (a slight exaggeration but it wasn't in the greatest of condition by then).
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: AV82EC on March 22, 2019, 11:17:24 AM
Still absolutely hate the Holte being two tier, it’s ruined it for me. There is so much space behind the Holte  to have created a great single tier stand with huge concourses and lounges but as ever Doug couldn’t see beyond the end of his chequebook.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: Ad@m on March 22, 2019, 11:29:06 AM
Still absolutely hate the Holte being two tier, it’s ruined it for me. There is so much space behind the Holte  to have created a great single tier stand with huge concourses and lounges but as ever Doug couldn’t see beyond the end of his chequebook.

Not sure it would've worked.

Yes, there's plenty of space behind the centre of the Holte but Trinity Road already cuts away at the corner of the upper tier as it is so going further back would've either resulted in moving the road (which BCC were unwilling to do as we saw with the new Trinity Road Stand) or extending it over the road which would've cost an absolute fortune I imagine.

For me, the North Stand redevelopment is the obvious choice to build a massive single-tier stand a-la Dortmund's Yellow Wall.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: maidstonevillain on March 22, 2019, 11:43:42 AM
Still absolutely hate the Holte being two tier, it’s ruined it for me. There is so much space behind the Holte  to have created a great single tier stand with huge concourses and lounges but as ever Doug couldn’t see beyond the end of his chequebook.

Not sure it would've worked.

Yes, there's plenty of space behind the centre of the Holte but Trinity Road already cuts away at the corner of the upper tier as it is so going further back would've either resulted in moving the road (which BCC were unwilling to do as we saw with the new Trinity Road Stand) or extending it over the road which would've cost an absolute fortune I imagine.

For me, the North Stand redevelopment is the obvious choice to build a massive single-tier stand a-la Dortmund's Yellow Wall.

I do wonder whether it is feasible to extend the Holte over the Trinity Road now the precedent has been set with the Trinity Road stand.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: West Derby Villan on March 22, 2019, 12:58:03 PM
Wasn't it mentioned at the time that a "one tier" Holte would mean that the spectators at the back would be a very long way from the pitch, which would provide a bad view (and probably out of breath if they walked up from the front)
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: Toronto Villa on March 22, 2019, 01:02:45 PM
Corporate sales means it is very unlikely a new North will be one tier.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: garyshawsknee on March 22, 2019, 01:26:15 PM
Maybe a two tier with safe standing if that ever comes in.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: Ad@m on March 22, 2019, 02:32:59 PM
Corporate sales means it is very unlikely a new North will be one tier.

Spurs have managed it in their new stadium and I doubt they have less demand for corporate sales than us.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 22, 2019, 02:36:35 PM
They've done it with one stand, same as we have one stand with no boxes. I have no doubt they other 3 stands have far more corporate than we, and most other clubs, do.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: Ad@m on March 22, 2019, 03:08:53 PM
They've done it with one stand, same as we have one stand with no boxes. I have no doubt they other 3 stands have far more corporate than we, and most other clubs, do.

You're making my point for me.

A club like Spurs, which will have huge demand for corporate hospitality and could no doubt have sold a bunch of corporate boxes in their South Stand several times over have chosen instead to build an iconic single tier stand for their fans.

If they can justify it, I'm sure we can.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: Des Little on March 22, 2019, 03:19:29 PM
Whatever we build to replace the North Stand needs to have a grass bank on the back to slide down when it's been raining.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 22, 2019, 03:20:35 PM
They can fit more corporate in three stands than we could in four, which is why they can build that one stand. You think if they were rebuilding one stand at WHL it would be a single tier with no corporate? The fact they could have added boxes is a total irrelevance. You are suggesting we reduce our corporate areas using a club that has added a load of corporate as an example of why we should do it.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: berneboy on March 22, 2019, 03:57:40 PM
Whatever we build to replace the North Stand needs to have a grass bank on the back to slide down when it's been raining.

And no railings either ...

Even as a little un  I couldn't understand how it was allowed
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: KRS on March 22, 2019, 04:44:32 PM
You simply can't compare the corporate facilities between VP and WHL when they've done a complete stadium redesign and build, and we rebuild one stand at a time with little foresight for any future developments. WHL will be one of the best (if not, the best) modern football stadiums in Europe (or at least the UK) and it has a price tag to match, whilst our stadium developments have been managed and restricted by both costs and infrastructure.

As someone mentioned on the other thread, the new Trinity Road stand from the outside could and should have been designed to be a thing of beauty especially considering what it was replacing, however it is an eyesore and looks like an industrial factory designed and constructed on the cheap. The same could be said of Witton Lane.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: Ad@m on March 22, 2019, 05:21:41 PM
The fact they could have added boxes is a total irrelevance.

Of course it isn't.

The point made was that we wouldn't build a single tier stand because we wouldn't turn down the opportunity of selling corporate boxes. Pointing out a club that's doing just that is hardly an irrelevance.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 22, 2019, 05:34:17 PM
It really is as you missed out all the other stuff.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: Malandro on March 22, 2019, 05:53:48 PM
Villa Park is fabulous, that’s all.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: West Derby Villan on March 22, 2019, 06:40:07 PM
Villa Park is fabulous, that’s all.

I agree wholeheartedly and wouldn't swap it for any other ground in the country
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: paul_e on March 22, 2019, 07:41:40 PM
Replace the north stand and, as part of the work, reclad the outside of the Trinity and DE and I think it could look amazing. I just hope they keep it as 4 separate stands.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: IFWaters on March 22, 2019, 08:03:32 PM
Villa Park should never be a bowl. It's identity is 4 stands, perhaps joined at the bottom by a few rows like the Trinity and Holte corner. The North and DE should be levelled and rebuilt as 2 tiers. I like the idea of the Holte as single tier, but it would have to be the biggest end stand in the country for me, it's part of the DNA.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: adrenachrome on March 22, 2019, 10:03:46 PM
Villa Park should never be a bowl. It's identity is 4 stands, perhaps joined at the bottom by a few rows like the Trinity and Holte corner. The North and DE should be levelled and rebuilt as 2 tiers. I like the idea of the Holte as single tier, but it would have to be the biggest end stand in the country for me, it's part of the DNA.

I like your vision, but we would have to move grounds for a season, and unlike Sperms and The Aymers, there are no obvious loations for temporary accommodation.

I remember a game against Bradford in PL when Gareth Southgate scored at the height of his disaffection with club, and the ongoing building works meant you could see vast swathes of north Birmingham and beyond.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 22, 2019, 10:08:42 PM
You'd do it 1 stand at a time, the North holds about 7K so while that was down we'd still have a 35k capacity.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: adrenachrome on March 22, 2019, 10:15:54 PM
You'd do it 1 stand at a time, the North holds about 7K so while that was down we'd still have a 35k capacity.

Makes sense. But we would see scaffolding, and cranes, and the motorway, and cranes. Bring back Henry Blofeld to do the commentary; he was a great man for the cranes.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: PeterWithesShin on March 22, 2019, 10:20:42 PM
Plenty of times this would have been more enjoyable to watch than the football

(http://www.thenatureinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Sandhill-Crane-Flying.jpg)
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: adrenachrome on March 23, 2019, 01:59:27 AM
Someone once shouted out "My word, a cormorant just flew by!", but he was always trying to recruit us into the RSPB and suggesting outings to Sutton Park. Had some very impressive binoculars.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: IFWaters on March 23, 2019, 07:41:01 AM
Villa Park should never be a bowl. It's identity is 4 stands, perhaps joined at the bottom by a few rows like the Trinity and Holte corner. The North and DE should be levelled and rebuilt as 2 tiers. I like the idea of the Holte as single tier, but it would have to be the biggest end stand in the country for me, it's part of the DNA.

I like your vision, but we would have to move grounds for a season, and unlike Sperms and The Aymers, there are no obvious loations for temporary accommodation.

I remember a game against Bradford in PL when Gareth Southgate scored at the height of his disaffection with club, and the ongoing building works meant you could see vast swathes of north Birmingham and beyond.
And another thing about VP. I agree with the other poster that all metal cladding should be removed. We aren't an effing Homebase. All of it should be brick and glorious mosaic detail. And in the corners 4 ruddy great brick towers like castle towers, a true fortress, holding catering, club offices, museum and something else I can't think of. I don't want a modernist masterpiece I want something that has teleported from 1895 built by a megalomaniac who wanted to say this is Aston Villa, you are entering the largest most frightening stadium you will ever lace your boots in.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: Ads on March 23, 2019, 07:54:45 AM
I'd quite like a horseshoe up to a huge single tiered Holte.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: AV82EC on March 23, 2019, 08:02:35 AM
My ideas as well as a large single tiered Holte would be to knock down the Witton and North. The North should be a wrap around extension of the Trinity, and we should come up with a totally random design for the Witton Lane stand that tries to make use of what little space we have got.

Agree completely with those who say it should be clad entirely in red brick and mosaics with big fuck off gables and loving the idea of towers in the corners of the ground. Fuck your identikit Emirates/Etihad/Spurs bowls give us a quirky design that says this is Aston, we do things differently here.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: Ads on March 23, 2019, 08:11:13 AM
If you're going to do the Witton you'd need to buy more land behind it.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: IFWaters on March 23, 2019, 05:38:59 PM
Villa Park should never be a bowl. It's identity is 4 stands, perhaps joined at the bottom by a few rows like the Trinity and Holte corner. The North and DE should be levelled and rebuilt as 2 tiers. I like the idea of the Holte as single tier, but it would have to be the biggest end stand in the country for me, it's part of the DNA.

I like your vision, but we would have to move grounds for a season, and unlike Sperms and The Aymers, there are no obvious loations for temporary accommodation.

I remember a game against Bradford in PL when Gareth Southgate scored at the height of his disaffection with club, and the ongoing building works meant you could see vast swathes of north Birmingham and beyond.
And another thing about VP. I agree with the other poster that all metal cladding should be removed. We aren't an effing Homebase. All of it should be brick and glorious mosaic detail. And in the corners 4 ruddy great brick towers like castle towers, a true fortress, holding catering, club offices, museum and something else I can't think of. I don't want a modernist masterpiece I want something that has teleported from 1895 built by a megalomaniac who wanted to say this is Aston Villa, you are entering the largest most frightening stadium you will ever lace your boots in.
The towers idea... Look at the Aston Webb building at Birmingham University but imagine sort of 3 times bigger. The whole stadium in that brick and stone style. The architect did the V&A museum and Buckingham Palace but most people accept that Birmingham University (alma mater) is his masterpiece. Imagine the whole ground in that style with nods to Archibald Leitch of course and a large stone plaza in place of the playground at the bottom of Aston Park with statues of Villa legends on plinths.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on March 23, 2019, 08:28:10 PM
(http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/villa-650x442.jpg)

http://www.playedinbritain.co.uk/pdf/engineering-archie-140-141.pdf

Quote
Gradually, with Frederick Rinder's guidance, the ground was completely overhauled. Much of the credit for the actual design of Villa Park must to go Rinder, who had visualised its eventual appearance from a number of sketches he had made himself and passed on to a well-established architect of the day, E B Holmes.
 
Rinder's structural ideas originally called for a ground that would hold 130,000 people and, but for the outbreak of World War One, the Villa chairman's ambition would no doubt have been realised, with the creation of the finest stadium in Great Britain. With his plans put on hold during the war, work on Rinder's vision continued in 1918, although his ambitious pre-war schemes were only ever partially developed.

http://www.lerwill-life.org.uk/astonvilla/a_villa_vp.htm
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air on March 23, 2019, 08:34:25 PM
(http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/PA-504788.jpg)
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: Lastfootstamper on March 23, 2019, 08:59:45 PM
The thing that strikes me about the war-interrupted design is how functional the stands look compared to what transpired. Although I've no doubt their sheer magnitude would've made a lasting statement. Imagine those two ends full!
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: London Villan on March 23, 2019, 09:32:03 PM
The club also massively overspent on it and it caused all sorts of financial problems.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: Richard E on March 23, 2019, 10:01:07 PM
Villa Park should never be a bowl. It's identity is 4 stands, perhaps joined at the bottom by a few rows like the Trinity and Holte corner. The North and DE should be levelled and rebuilt as 2 tiers. I like the idea of the Holte as single tier, but it would have to be the biggest end stand in the country for me, it's part of the DNA.

I like your vision, but we would have to move grounds for a season, and unlike Sperms and The Aymers, there are no obvious loations for temporary accommodation.

I remember a game against Bradford in PL when Gareth Southgate scored at the height of his disaffection with club, and the ongoing building works meant you could see vast swathes of north Birmingham and beyond.
And another thing about VP. I agree with the other poster that all metal cladding should be removed. We aren't an effing Homebase. All of it should be brick and glorious mosaic detail. And in the corners 4 ruddy great brick towers like castle towers, a true fortress, holding catering, club offices, museum and something else I can't think of. I don't want a modernist masterpiece I want something that has teleported from 1895 built by a megalomaniac who wanted to say this is Aston Villa, you are entering the largest most frightening stadium you will ever lace your boots in.

Teleportation wasn’t invented until 1896.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: robbo1874 on March 26, 2019, 08:09:14 AM
(http://www.whoateallthepies.tv/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/villa-650x442.jpg)

http://www.playedinbritain.co.uk/pdf/engineering-archie-140-141.pdf

Quote
Gradually, with Frederick Rinder's guidance, the ground was completely overhauled. Much of the credit for the actual design of Villa Park must to go Rinder, who had visualised its eventual appearance from a number of sketches he had made himself and passed on to a well-established architect of the day, E B Holmes.
 
Rinder's structural ideas originally called for a ground that would hold 130,000 people and, but for the outbreak of World War One, the Villa chairman's ambition would no doubt have been realised, with the creation of the finest stadium in Great Britain. With his plans put on hold during the war, work on Rinder's vision continued in 1918, although his ambitious pre-war schemes were only ever partially developed.

http://www.lerwill-life.org.uk/astonvilla/a_villa_vp.htm
i love this image, it’s brilliant. Imagine being in a packed 130k crowd at VP every other week watching the best side in the country. On the flip side though, imagine being there in a crowd of 30,000 most weeks, watching shite football. Brings to mind that Jasper carrot sketch where he was going on about being at the Sty- and I said to the bloke standing next to me: Oiiiiiiiiii!
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: brentastonb6 on March 27, 2019, 12:28:19 AM
I'd quite like a horseshoe up to a huge single tiered Holte.
This I think is the ultimate club vision with the Holte being a massive steep rake single tier stand
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: KRS on April 03, 2019, 08:37:08 PM
I doubt it would happen any time soon, but I presume if there was ever to be a large scale revamp of Villa Park then the new Alexander Stadium could potentially be used for a season (apparently it will hold 40,000).
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: PeterWithesShin on April 22, 2019, 12:21:49 AM
(https://i2-prod.hinckleytimes.net/incoming/article14860689.ece/ALTERNATES/s1227b/JS152795820.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhHfy1-X0AEQ0Hf.jpg)
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: XXVilla on April 23, 2019, 09:19:19 AM
I must say walking to the game yesterday I was disgusted at the state of Aston. Rubbish and litter everywhere, some of it in stinking piles. I know the council aren’t helping at the moment but the local community do have to take some responsibility. Absolutely appalling and doesn’t help the over all image for people visiting Villa Park.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: DB on April 23, 2019, 09:21:46 AM
I must say walking to the game yesterday I was disgusted at the state of Aston. Rubbish and litter everywhere, some of it in stinking piles. I know the council aren’t helping at the moment but the local community do have to take some responsibility. Absolutely appalling and doesn’t help the over all image for people visiting Villa Park.

We thought the same, it was awful. Lovely soiled mattress just around the corner from VP to greet visitors.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: London Villan on April 23, 2019, 09:26:37 AM
It’s been like that for the last few years. Bevington and Whitehead roads are disgusting.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: KRS on April 23, 2019, 01:10:42 PM
The walk in from Star City is also full of litter and discarded rubbish. Disgusting.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: Des Little on April 23, 2019, 01:16:34 PM
Birmingham as a city has a huge litter and refuse issue.  It pains me to say it, but it's in a revolting mess right now.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: JUAN PABLO on April 23, 2019, 01:21:56 PM
Birmingham as a city has a huge litter and refuse issue.  It pains me to say it, but it's in a revolting mess right now.

agree , I park my car in Highgate every week to get supplies , its an absolute mess and so much litter about. Disgusting .
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: PeterWithesShin on May 19, 2019, 03:12:53 PM
Today is the 20th anniversary of the Cup Winner's Cup final held at VP. Some cracking stuff from fans of both clubs on social media.

And the current thing today seems to be various twitter pages doing first ground visited, last ground visited, best/favourite ground visited questions and a lot of fans of other clubs saying VP for best/favourite ground.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: Sexual Ealing on May 19, 2019, 04:15:20 PM
Any links PWS?
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: eamonn on May 19, 2019, 04:32:47 PM
Which clubs?  I don't remember that at all.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: AV82EC on May 19, 2019, 04:52:13 PM
Which clubs?  I don't remember that at all.

Lazio and Inter??
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: PeterWithesShin on May 19, 2019, 04:55:32 PM
Lazio and Mallorca.

Search "Villa Park" on Twitter and then click "latest" and you'll see a fair few photos of VP from fans of those clubs, as well as VP as answers in those questions.
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: eamonn on May 19, 2019, 04:55:53 PM
An Anglo-Italian Cup of sorts...beats West Brom v Piacenza in front of three thousand at the Hawthorns
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: PeterWithesShin on May 19, 2019, 04:57:04 PM
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: AV82EC on May 19, 2019, 05:00:13 PM
Wasn’t that the season Athletico beat us in the quarters?
Title: Re: how good villa park could have been...
Post by: PeterWithesShin on May 19, 2019, 05:01:51 PM
Wasn’t that the season Athletico beat us in the quarters?

Nope, the season after. 97/98 was when we reached the QF.
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