Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: aev on December 07, 2017, 11:12:03 AM
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Bullying (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/dec/07/aston-villa-academy-evidence-bullying-fa-kevin-macdonald)
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Shameful.
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some of our fans are also ignorant see below - why would you take the michael out of a disabled fan. Imagine the furore if it was them taking the piss of a villa fan
www.facebook.com/groups/131653430526891/permalink/536065226752374/?comment_id=536074713418092
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As ever, it's difficult to draw conclusons from this without knowing all the facts. Conn is a highly respected football journalist and so I suspect that he has done his homework. However it is not clear how many cases of bullying have been identified at Villa, why MacDonald has remained when others have left and what else might have taken place behind the scenes to rectify problems.
Undoubtedly, one person's view of bullying might be another person's interpretation of 'tough love'.
Working in academies is very hard, and many of the coaches and other staff members are ill-equipped to deal with the interpersonal challenges. I speak as someone whose son works in the Leeds academy: his experience suggests that staff are often not hired on overall suitability but because they know someone in a positon of authority (they are often ex-players) ...
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As ever, it's difficult to draw conclusons from this without knowing all the facts. Conn is a highly respected football journalist and so I suspect that he has done his homework. However it is not clear how many cases of bullying have been identified at Villa, why MacDonald has remained when others have left and what else might have taken place behind the scenes to rectify problems.
Undoubtedly, one person's view of bullying might be another person's interpretation of 'tough love'.
Working in academies is very hard, and many of the coaches and other staff members are ill-equipped to deal with the interpersonal challenges. I speak as someone whose son works in the Leeds academy: his experience suggests that staff are often not hired on overall suitability but because they know someone in a position of authority (they are often ex-players)...
Very true.
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I know someone who works with rugby academies (he was at Worcester, Gloucester and most recently Exeter for a few years and is now working with the RFU in what amounts to an academy compliance role) and one of the things he pushed for in all his roles was for the academy coaches to at least take an interest in teaching (and specifically the mentoring side) because the club plays such a big part in the lives of the players that they need to be able to offer similar support to a school, when he was at Gloucester most of the youth team staff there were fully qualified teachers but I don't know if that is reflected at other clubs, seems like a sensible idea though.
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As ever, it's difficult to draw conclusons from this without knowing all the facts. Conn is a highly respected football journalist and so I suspect that he has done his homework. However it is not clear how many cases of bullying have been identified at Villa, why MacDonald has remained when others have left and what else might have taken place behind the scenes to rectify problems.
Undoubtedly, one person's view of bullying might be another person's interpretation of 'tough love'.
Working in academies is very hard, and many of the coaches and other staff members are ill-equipped to deal with the interpersonal challenges. I speak as someone whose son works in the Leeds academy: his experience suggests that staff are often not hired on overall suitability but because they know someone in a positon of authority (they are often ex-players) ...
Nope. Bullying is easy to define, and there’s no excuse for it in any walk of life.
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Yep that's it, 'tough love' is just an excuse in that context. If someone feels it's bullying, it's bullying.
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Lee Hendrie was on sky for the Leeds game and he said that Kevin Mcdonald drives them all very hard. New era, different culture I guess.
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Nothing I’ve ever read about MacDonald does anything to dispel the opinion I have that he’s a massive twat.
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As ever, it's difficult to draw conclusons from this without knowing all the facts. Conn is a highly respected football journalist and so I suspect that he has done his homework. However it is not clear how many cases of bullying have been identified at Villa, why MacDonald has remained when others have left and what else might have taken place behind the scenes to rectify problems.
Undoubtedly, one person's view of bullying might be another person's interpretation of 'tough love'.
Working in academies is very hard, and many of the coaches and other staff members are ill-equipped to deal with the interpersonal challenges. I speak as someone whose son works in the Leeds academy: his experience suggests that staff are often not hired on overall suitability but because they know someone in a positon of authority (they are often ex-players) ...
Nope. Bullying is easy to define, and there’s no excuse for it in any walk of life.
If it were easy, clubs would be able much more effectively than they currently do to set well-defined standards and hold people accountable to them.
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Did the details ever emerge about the dismissal of Culverhouse?
That was for alleged bullying behaviour against one of our first team irregulars I believe - who has subsequently moved on
Now as someone who was tormented by a bully during my early teen years there is an instant hatred for anyone deemed to be a bully - but in todays world a hard taskmaster could easily be misconstrued as being a bully
Would of course like to know some of the specifics
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Nothing I’ve ever read about MacDonald does anything to dispel the opinion I have that he’s a massive twat.
MacDonald should've gone after the Tottenham debacle.
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Nothing I’ve ever read about MacDonald does anything to dispel the opinion I have that he’s a massive twat.
MacDonald should've gone after the Tottenham debacle.
Agreed.
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What a wonderful recruitment advertisement for our Academy.
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Nothing I’ve ever read about MacDonald does anything to dispel the opinion I have that he’s a massive twat.
MacDonald should've gone after the Tottenham debacle.
But he was care-taking above his grade. Reverting to his old role (not taking into account these accusations) or similar was surely not illogical.
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There is an argument to say he sabotaged the company he worked for in the explanation given for the team he picked that night.
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Aston Villa caretaker manager Kevin MacDonald: "We came with a game plan but that went out of the window after two minutes. In the second half we created more chances, got a little bit of luck and were fighting, fighting, fighting. But Tottenham have very good players and if you give them a chance they'll score.
"I went with a team I thought could cause problems for Tottenham. It was the best Aston Villa side I thought could start."
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I respect Conn as a journalist but I think he’s missed a trick in not making a distinction between the regimes running the club in the period referred to. Lets be honest what’s come out since Xia/DoF arrived and latterly since Bruce arrived seems to have got control of an utterly toxic and unruly Bodymoor Heath.
That said I’m in no way trying to excuse the club, total transparency on what happened should be a pre-requisite of what happened. From the report we seem to have a father implying Macdonald is a bit of a ****** and hasn’t been held to account and Villa have dismissed a few bad apples hoping the problem will have gone away. The FA and Premier League seem to want to put it all in the past as well.
An unedifying spectacle for the club.
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Unfortunatly I think most of us here who have been around the club long enough and various people go through the academy could back-up what is said in the article. I say this not knowing if his behaviour has changed for the better in the last 5 or so years, but I suspect not.
I though he should have been dismissed many many years ago and I do think it is a stain on the academy that he is still there and lauded by steve bruce. I understand with some people if can be bitterness as being released etc and there is always those who will forgive these things as its Villa, and they want there family & friends to succeed and are rightly very proud to have there kids in the club but his attitude and way of dealing with kids over multiple years should not be condoned in any environment.
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I agree wholeheartedly with Risso's view that bullying is easy to define. It can be hard to identify immediately because it comes in many forms, but it's all definable and none of it is excusable. Verbal abuse and humiliation, as referred to in this article, is completely unacceptable and unnecessary in any workplace, and anyone using that as a tool to control or 'manage' is a bully. I can't see any grey area there whatsoever.
What disturbs me most is the idea that kids and their parents are afraid to speak up in case they should harm their chances of a career in football; it's exactly the story we've heard from the victims of sex abuse in football recently, and even though there's no suggestion that there's anything of that nature going on here, this story still highlights an abuse of power that creates exactly the sort of environment where that sort of thing is able to happen. Considering the club still has questions to answer regarding that enquiry I'd hope they're taking this latest report extremely seriously.
All of this tarnishes the club, and if there's the slightest proof that MacDonald has done what he's accused of then surely he has to go, regardless of his coaching ability or any previous twattery. As a club we can't be seen to be complicit, that would be disgraceful. Bollocks to 'tough love' and 'banter', bullying in any form and on whatever level must not be tolerated. That should be the message we're sending out now.
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I agree wholeheartedly with Risso's view that bullying is easy to define. It can be hard to identify immediately because it comes in many forms, but it's all definable and none of it is excusable. Verbal abuse and humiliation, as referred to in this article, is completely unacceptable and unnecessary in any workplace, and anyone using that as a tool to control or 'manage' is a bully. I can't see any grey area there whatsoever.
What disturbs me most is the idea that kids and their parents are afraid to speak up in case they should harm their chances of a career in football; it's exactly the story we've heard from the victims of sex abuse in football recently, and even though there's no suggestion that there's anything of that nature going on here, this story still highlights an abuse of power that creates exactly the sort of environment where that sort of thing is able to happen. Considering the club still has questions to answer regarding that enquiry I'd hope they're taking this latest report extremely seriously.
All of this tarnishes the club, and if there's the slightest proof that MacDonald has done what he's accused of then surely he has to go, regardless of his coaching ability or any previous twattery. As a club we can't be seen to be complicit, that would be disgraceful. Bollocks to 'tough love' and 'banter', bullying in any form and on whatever level must not be tolerated. That should be the message we're sending out now.
Given the bold bit and the following from the article:
The father was dissatisfied with the club’s desultory response, so he complained to the Premier League. It commissioned an independent review, whose conclusions were communicated to the father by letter. It said: “There is evidence of bullying, aggressive behaviour, and unacceptable language by Mr MacDonald.”
The league told the father it had insisted on “sweeping and rigorous measures to improve practice and procedure to ensure academy player welfare is prioritised” at Villa. MacDonald was referred to the Football Association for investigation into whether he should continue to work with young footballers or be sanctioned.
I'd suggest that the slightest proof you mentioned is either not there, is insufficient or that the review hasn't been finished yet and this report is coming in the middle of the story. I think the last is pretty unlikely after 10 months but it is a possibility.
I don't know which of these is true but if the club, the premier league review and the FA investigation have all completed (as per the first 2 cases) and found no grounds to sack him then we can't use this to send any sort of message and we need to just accept that his side of the story is is compelling enough to not be disregarded.
Oh, and just to clarify I don't like him at all and would have happily seen him dumped last summer as part of the review that Round supposedly completed.
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That is a very one sided article. When its been investigated three times and everyone concerned has said its been addressed and resolved and there have been zero reported other incidents since then I don't see what the father wants. Someone to lose their job?
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That is a very one sided article. When its been investigated three times and everyone concerned has said its been addressed and resolved and there have been zero reported other incidents since then I don't see what the father wants. Someone to lose their job?
A payout?
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That is a very one sided article. When its been investigated three times and everyone concerned has said its been addressed and resolved and there have been zero reported other incidents since then I don't see what the father wants. Someone to lose their job?
Thing is, Ciggies, that is exactly what would happen to most of us if we were caught engaging in aggressive behaviour, verbal abuse and bullying in the workplace, and rightly so. I'd be very interested to know why the club felt the evidence from those investigations didn't warrant a sacking, and if so what they did warrant. A stern talking to? A written warning? They might consider that resolved, many wouldn't. In the current climate I think the father has every right to be asking questions, and I think we should be too. If the answers were given the article wouldn't be one-sided - in fact, there'd probably be no article.
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Considering how much change we’ve had throughout the whole club it’s surprising he’s still in a job anyway, adding this to the equation makes that even more surprising.
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That is a very one sided article. When its been investigated three times and everyone concerned has said its been addressed and resolved and there have been zero reported other incidents since then I don't see what the father wants. Someone to lose their job?
Thing is, Ciggies, that is exactly what would happen to most of us if we were caught engaging in aggressive behaviour, verbal abuse and bullying in the workplace, and rightly so. I'd be very interested to know why the club felt the evidence from those investigations didn't warrant a sacking, and if so what they did warrant. A stern talking to? A written warning? They might consider that resolved, many wouldn't. In the current climate I think the father has every right to be asking questions, and I think we should be too. If the answers were given the article wouldn't be one-sided - in fact, there'd probably be no article.
If you're going to compare this to what would happen to most of us / normal jobs etc, then shouldn't the same right to have a HR procedure take place within the company not in the media/in public apply as it would do with most of us? Seems like double standards to me.
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I agree wholeheartedly with Risso's view that bullying is easy to define. It can be hard to identify immediately because it comes in many forms, but it's all definable and none of it is excusable. Verbal abuse and humiliation, as referred to in this article, is completely unacceptable and unnecessary in any workplace, and anyone using that as a tool to control or 'manage' is a bully. I can't see any grey area there whatsoever.
Sorry, but I don't agree.
The issue is where you draw the line between "banter" and bullying and it'll be in a different place for every individual.
Anyone who's played football will have been told they've got a 50 pence head or two left feet or whatever and you've probably had a good chuckle about it with your team mates. If you keep being told you've got a 50p head or two left feet eventually it'll become bullying. But the point it crosses from banter to bullying will depend on the character of the person it's directed at.
What's important is that the people in charge recognise that it's different for different people and stop it before it crosses the line. Based on one article alone I don't see how any of us can draw any conclusions on this.
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That is a very one sided article. When its been investigated three times and everyone concerned has said its been addressed and resolved and there have been zero reported other incidents since then I don't see what the father wants. Someone to lose their job?
Thing is, Ciggies, that is exactly what would happen to most of us if we were caught engaging in aggressive behaviour, verbal abuse and bullying in the workplace, and rightly so. I'd be very interested to know why the club felt the evidence from those investigations didn't warrant a sacking, and if so what they did warrant. A stern talking to? A written warning? They might consider that resolved, many wouldn't. In the current climate I think the father has every right to be asking questions, and I think we should be too. If the answers were given the article wouldn't be one-sided - in fact, there'd probably be no article.
Well we have no idea what the specific allegations are. They are pretty broad. If for example at work in a meeting I said to a new employee who had just crashed the software because of sloppy work "Oh for fucks sake, you HAVE to check your code with your supervisor before pushing to staging!" then I would be out of line and deserve a talking to, but nothing more. If on the other hand I said "You are a useless fucking little twat why are you even here?" then I should be fired. One is aggressive over the line behaviour that needs to be changed, the other is obviously unacceptable and grounds for dismissal.*
Everyone who has looked at this seems to put the case into the first category. The father seems to be the only one with a different opinion, note he stands completely alone here. No other parents have any problem whatsoever.
I mean should unsubstantiated allegations cause someone to lose their job? To be clear I have wanted Kmac gone for years, because I thought he did an appalling job when interim manager. But I don't think he should be sacked just because some kids father didn't like the handling of a HR issue.
*I wouldn't say either obviously, but as an example.
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He clearly has acted inappropriately:
"There is evidence of bullying, aggressive behaviour, and unacceptable language by Mr MacDonald." Whether the club chooses to sack him because of it, is entirely up to them though.
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He clearly has acted inappropriately:
"There is evidence of bullying, aggressive behaviour, and unacceptable language by Mr MacDonald." Whether the club chooses to sack him because of it, is entirely up to them though.
I was about to post that exact quote from the article. That's all I'm basing my conclusions on. It is entirely up to the club whether or not to sack him, I'm just troubled by the fact that they chose not to.
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I already quoted that bit though, I honestly think that if the advice had been to sack him it would've happened so there must be more to it than there appears to be in that line.
I may be wrong, but for me if there's been 3 reviews and none of them have come to the conclusion that he should be sacked then it's probably not so clear cut.
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I guess its a thin line you have to tread between bullying and getting young adults to reach their potential.Not really sure if i've missed it but i can't see an age range quoted and to me that makes a big difference.
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I've said this before and I'll say it again. Dave Conn is a great writer, who has helped as much as anyone to challenge the perception that football journalism is all about sick as a parrot cliches and EXCLUSIVES!!! but if he has a fault it's that where a big club are concerned he tends to damn them without trial and invariably believe the other side.
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I now realise that when I played Sunday league I was subjected to undiagnosed bullying by the manager, and had to pay him subs for the privilege.
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I now realise that when I played Sunday league I was subjected to undiagnosed bullying by the manager, and had to pay him subs for the privilege.
yep. where do you draw the line? if its a 14 year old then fair enough, but you'd hope if a 20year old or 18 or even 16 and you're not doing yourself justice, then for every player who would claim bullying, another 3 would say it was the kick-up the backside they needed.. I'd hope Bruce could be technically bullying some players
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I already quoted that bit though, I honestly think that if the advice had been to sack him it would've happened so there must be more to it than there appears to be in that line.
I may be wrong, but for me if there's been 3 reviews and none of them have come to the conclusion that he should be sacked then it's probably not so clear cut.
I’m not sure it’d be within the powers of the PL or the FA to suggest that a club official be fired. His contract of employment is with Villa, and nobody else. Even if this isn’t correct, I think they’ve proved recently with the likes of Sampson that their own procedures and decision making are deeply flawed.
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As a victim of workplace bullying (because I have hearing loss and it's totes hilar to make sure the deaf guy can't hear what you're saying, and one time actually having the piss ripped out of me because I couldn't hear properly), you know when you're being set upon.
There's normally a ringleader that readies the troops for the day's assault and it gets to the point where you start to think that you're the problem. In fact, it's the poisonous atmosphere that you have disturbed.
It's interesting that we've heard anecdotal stuff on here, from Legion no less, that Villa's academy was in the doldrums and kids were going to Albion or Blues instead. Well now we know why.
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As a victim of workplace bullying (because I have hearing loss and it's totes hilar to make sure the deaf guy can't hear what you're saying, and one time actually having the piss ripped out of me because I couldn't hear properly), you know when you're being set upon.
There's normally a ringleader that readies the troops for the day's assault and it gets to the point where you start to think that you're the problem. In fact, it's the poisonous atmosphere that you have disturbed.
It's interesting that we've heard anecdotal stuff on here, from Legion no less, that Villa's academy was in the doldrums and kids were going to Albion or Blues instead. Well now we know why.
well that's the question really. was this 'kid' having the piss ripped out of him in a calculated manner in training or elsewhere, and actually picked on which is bullying, or as stated bad language and aggressive behaviour which sounds very much like a half time teamtalk if you're playing crap. In that case most of the youth coaches in the country would be sacked,. Obviously some players respond or don't to that treatment, and that is part of the skillset a youth coach must have - working out which players need a talking to, and which want a arm round them
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I've said this before and I'll say it again. Dave Conn is a great writer, who has helped as much as anyone to challenge the perception that football journalism is all about sick as a parrot cliches and EXCLUSIVES!!! but if he has a fault it's that where a big club are concerned he tends to damn them without trial and invariably believe the other side.
His story is really just an update on the piece The Telegraph ran back in March though.
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Nothing I’ve ever read about MacDonald does anything to dispel the opinion I have that he’s a massive twat.
MacDonald should've gone after the Tottenham debacle.
He should no more of been sacked for that or the 6-0 at Newcastle as he should have been given a 10yr contract after the win vs West Ham. He was covering a job no more no less.
As for the matter in hand as others have said we don’t know all the facts, the headlines yes, full facts no, you have to trust that the powers that be in the club do have the facts and if there was ANY safeguarding issue McDonald would have been removed. If not then it’s a house of cards that would collapse & Wyness, Round etc would be untenable if they haven’t acted to protect the young players. The very word bullying implies wrong doing though and not something that can be ignored.
Anyone who has ever watched him on the touch line of a reserve game will know he has an aggressive nature barking out his orders, clearly a lot of players respond to the ‘tough love’ positively however it is never acceptable if anything has gone beyond the line.
Suspect the article will force the club into a statement of some sort to clarify the position.
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Nothing I’ve ever read about MacDonald does anything to dispel the opinion I have that he’s a massive twat.
Many young players have come through under his watch. In recent times likes of Albrighton, Bannan, Fonz, Weimann etc.
He's good at his job. If he overstepped the mark you'd like to think a few of those would've raised things.
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There is an argument to say he sabotaged the company he worked for in the explanation given for the team he picked that night.
I'd actually forgotten about that game. Some strange picks bu Eric Black's team selections later that season were on another level.
On balance I'd have given him longer as caretaker in 10/11 while a more inspiring candidate than Houllier became available.
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"He liked to...belittle players".
"He said, 'You're over there with the shit...'."
"He was a bully."
That's what his players said. What do you think now?
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I already quoted that bit though, I honestly think that if the advice had been to sack him it would've happened so there must be more to it than there appears to be in that line.
I may be wrong, but for me if there's been 3 reviews and none of them have come to the conclusion that he should be sacked then it's probably not so clear cut.
I think you are right.
There is a sulphurous stench of the witch hunt in the mass media at the moment where people are being proved guilty before the evidence is presented. If Villa fans genuinely think that Kevin Mac has been retained despite evidence against him, we are in a very bad place indeed.
One good thing which might come out of all this is a reappraisal of these ubiquitous non-disclosure agreements.
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I understand that more allegations of bullying were made this week
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I already quoted that bit though, I honestly think that if the advice had been to sack him it would've happened so there must be more to it than there appears to be in that line.
I may be wrong, but for me if there's been 3 reviews and none of them have come to the conclusion that he should be sacked then it's probably not so clear cut.
I think you are right.
There is a sulphurous stench of the witch hunt in the mass media at the moment where people are being proved guilty before the evidence is presented. If Villa fans genuinely think that Kevin Mac has been retained despite evidence against him, we are in a very bad place indeed.
One good thing which might come out of all this is a reappraisal of these ubiquitous non-disclosure agreements.
The bold bit is my issue here, as I've said I don't like him and think the club should've got rid of him on the basis that even though we have good players coming through many of them are mentally weak and unprepared or first team football. However I don't like this idea that because someone has made an accusation you must be guilty and furthermore you must be shunned by society completely as your punishment. Look at the Johnny Depp/harry potter thing for an example.
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"Bullying and harassment means any unwanted behaviour that makes someone feel intimidated, degraded, humiliated or offended. It is not necessarily always obvious or apparent to others, and may happen in the workplace without an employer's awareness."
That was lifted from the ACAS website.
"Examples of bullying / harassing behaviour could include:
- spreading malicious rumours, or insulting someone
- exclusion or victimisation
- unfair treatment
- deliberately undermining a competent worker by constant criticism."
So, a fairly broad definition but at the same time not exactly a pleasant scenario.
There may have been bullying but that it was seen not to be serious enough to warrant Gross Misconduct. Given what football is like though, you'd imagine that is almost irrelevant, people get paid off left, right and centre.
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I already quoted that bit though, I honestly think that if the advice had been to sack him it would've happened so there must be more to it than there appears to be in that line.
I may be wrong, but for me if there's been 3 reviews and none of them have come to the conclusion that he should be sacked then it's probably not so clear cut.
I think you are right.
There is a sulphurous stench of the witch hunt in the mass media at the moment where people are being proved guilty before the evidence is presented. If Villa fans genuinely think that Kevin Mac has been retained despite evidence against him, we are in a very bad place indeed.
One good thing which might come out of all this is a reappraisal of these ubiquitous non-disclosure agreements.
The bold bit is my issue here, as I've said I don't like him and think the club should've got rid of him on the basis that even though we have good players coming through many of them are mentally weak and unprepared or first team football. However I don't like this idea that because someone has made an accusation you must be guilty and furthermore you must be shunned by society completely as your punishment. Look at the Johnny Depp/harry potter thing for an example.
But it isn't just that there's been an accusation. There's been an enquiry and that enquiry found that his actions amounted to bullying. I don't think that he should be shunned by society, but there appear to be ample grounds for him not being employed as a coach.
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I had a friend whose family all support Villa and her son was with the Villa academy from age 8.
By the time he was 9 they had moved him to Blues because they said the atmosphere at Villa was horrible and they say he is loads happier at Blues despite still being an avid Villa fan.
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I already quoted that bit though, I honestly think that if the advice had been to sack him it would've happened so there must be more to it than there appears to be in that line.
I may be wrong, but for me if there's been 3 reviews and none of them have come to the conclusion that he should be sacked then it's probably not so clear cut.
I think you are right.
There is a sulphurous stench of the witch hunt in the mass media at the moment where people are being proved guilty before the evidence is presented. If Villa fans genuinely think that Kevin Mac has been retained despite evidence against him, we are in a very bad place indeed.
One good thing which might come out of all this is a reappraisal of these ubiquitous non-disclosure agreements.
The bold bit is my issue here, as I've said I don't like him and think the club should've got rid of him on the basis that even though we have good players coming through many of them are mentally weak and unprepared or first team football. However I don't like this idea that because someone has made an accusation you must be guilty and furthermore you must be shunned by society completely as your punishment. Look at the Johnny Depp/harry potter thing for an example.
But it isn't just that there's been an accusation. There's been an enquiry and that enquiry found that his actions amounted to bullying. I don't think that he should be shunned by society, but there appear to be ample grounds for him not being employed as a coach.
That's just it though, we don't know if there are.
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He IS guilty of bullying though, that has been established. You were querying that.
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He IS guilty of bullying though, that has been established. You were querying that.
I really wasn't and if it came across as that then it wasn't intended, I even quoted the bit where the PL findings state as much. What I'm querying is that given what we know it looks like a fairly clear cut case to get rid of him but we haven't done that so there must be something more that we don't know. Hence you said there's ample grounds for him not being a coach but it appears that the club, PL and FA all disagree with that.
Earlier you said that the latter 2 would have no right to suggest we sack him, and that's true, but with everything that's gone on in the last year or so I'd be amazed if they'd found the clear evidence you'd need and didn't tell everyone that they agreed with the dad that he's a scumbag but they can't force the club to take action, putting al lthe pressure on the club to 'do the right thing'.
I may be wrong but I just don't see how the club could keep him and avoid a shitstorm (at some point) unless they had a solid reason, and I don't think that will be as slim as "he's been a good servant".
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In the day job I hate cases involving "bullying." The phrase is so nebulous and covers such a multitude of sins ranging from serious harassment to quite reasonably being told to do your job properly that it is almost meaningless.
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Nothing I’ve ever read about MacDonald does anything to dispel the opinion I have that he’s a massive twat.
A twat, bully and he sabotaged Garde's start in the job.
Get rid. He's even worse than Black, in my opinion.
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In the day job I hate cases involving "bullying." The phrase is so nebulous and covers such a multitude of sins ranging from serious harassment to quite reasonably being told to do your job properly that it is almost meaningless.
To the annoying thread! Showdown with that lazy bastard at work today who is now dangling a constructive dismissal argument.
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As already stated, bullying takes many forms, subliminal and overt being two examples. You could call someone a nitwit and he could be offended and consider it bullying, whereas you can call someone else a prick and they wouldn't bat an eyelid.
I too was bullied, I was a fat kid growing up, a very fat kid, of which I was constantly reminded several times a day, and there isn't a name I haven't been called, my surname never helped.
An example being what I endured during gym lessons, not only from the kids but from the gym teachers too; who thought it funny to make me do things I found impossible just for everyone to have a laugh at my struggles. Humiliating.
Worse still was the showers after gym/games. At that age, thirteenish, I had developed man breasts and showering was a nightmare, I would be surrounded by horny teenagers grabbing at them and some would have full-on erections jabbing into my arse. I was constantly fighting them, and if anything good came out of that it was that it taught me how to look after myself.
I remember once getting into a fight with another fat kid because he had the nerve to call me fat! Looking back now it must have been funny to the others to see two fat kids fighting over who was the fattest! Talk about who's the tallest dwarf!
There was no point mentioning it at home, best not say anything or more shit would come my way. As a result of all this I can still feel pretty insecure at times.
Our daughter did her university dissertation on bullying. She knows nothing about what I've written here, nobody does, not even my wife. My daughter chose the subject having suffered the loss of a former boyfriend to suicide who cited bullying as his reason in a note he left.
I have chosen to put it on here in the hope that it may bring to peoples' notice just what extremes can happen when continually repeating something that others may find disconcerting. There is no place for bullying anywhere and there's definitely no reason. Sadly, there are too many arseholes in the world ready and willing to prey on what they perceive to be other peoples' weaknesses.
I told both our kids when I knew they were both going into teaching to choose their words very carefully when talking to their pupils as they may never know the profound effect those words could have.
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That is such a shame to hear. I was also bullied extensively whilst at school for many years and also in the workplace, especially just recently. I am totally against it and bring my girls up appropriately as well as having anti-bullying strategies inherent at the core of my teaching.
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I'm not sure what I find most startling - the suggestion that there is a culture of bullying at Villa or that so many posters seem to think there is a "fine line" between motivation and bullying and can't seem to tell the difference.
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As already stated, bullying takes many forms, subliminal and overt being two examples. You could call someone a nitwit and he could be offended and consider it bullying, whereas you can call someone else a prick and they wouldn't bat an eyelid.
I too was bullied, I was a fat kid growing up, a very fat kid, of which I was constantly reminded several times a day, and there isn't a name I haven't been called, my surname never helped.
An example being what I endured during gym lessons, not only from the kids but from the gym teachers too; who thought it funny to make me do things I found impossible just for everyone to have a laugh at my struggles. Humiliating.
Worse still was the showers after gym/games. At that age, thirteenish, I had developed man breasts and showering was a nightmare, I would be surrounded by horny teenagers grabbing at them and some would have full-on erections jabbing into my arse. I was constantly fighting them, and if anything good came out of that it was that it taught me how to look after myself.
I remember once getting into a fight with another fat kid because he had the nerve to call me fat! Looking back now it must have been funny to the others to see two fat kids fighting over who was the fattest! Talk about who's the tallest dwarf!
There was no point mentioning it at home, best not say anything or more shit would come my way. As a result of all this I can still feel pretty insecure at times.
Our daughter did her university dissertation on bullying. She knows nothing about what I've written here, nobody does, not even my wife. My daughter chose the subject having suffered the loss of a former boyfriend to suicide who cited bullying as his reason in a note he left.
I have chosen to put it on here in the hope that it may bring to peoples' notice just what extremes can happen when continually repeating something that others may find disconcerting. There is no place for bullying anywhere and there's definitely no reason. Sadly, there are too many arseholes in the world ready and willing to prey on what they perceive to be other peoples' weaknesses.
I told both our kids when I knew they were both going into teaching to choose their words very carefully when talking to their pupils as they may never know the profound effect those words could have.
I'm sorry to read that Dave, nobody should have to endure anything like that.
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Nothing I’ve ever read about MacDonald does anything to dispel the opinion I have that he’s a massive twat.
MacDonald should've gone after the Tottenham debacle.
Yeah I'd forget about that. An inexplicably malevolent team selection. Don't like the guy. And if it's proven he's a bully he should be fucked off forthwith.
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As already stated, bullying takes many forms, subliminal and overt being two examples. You could call someone a nitwit and he could be offended and consider it bullying, I whereas you can call someone else a prick and they wouldn't bat an eyelid.
I too was bullied, I was a fat kid growing up, a very fat kid, of which I was constantly reminded several times a day, and there isn't a name I haven't been called, my surname never helped.
An example being what I endured during gym lessons, not only from the kids but from the gym teachers too; who thought it funny to make me do things I found impossible just for everyone to have a laugh at my struggles. Humiliating.
Worse still was the showers after gym/games. At that age, thirteenish, I had developed man breasts and showering was a nightmare, I would be surrounded by horny teenagers grabbing at them and some would have full-on erections jabbing into my arse. I was constantly fighting them, and if anything good came out of that it was that it taught me how to look after myself.
I remember once getting into a fight with another fat kid because he had the nerve to call me fat! Looking back now it must have been funny to the others to see two fat kids fighting over who was the fattest! Talk about who's the tallest dwarf!
There was no point mentioning it at home, best not say anything or more shit would come my way. As a result of all this I can still feel pretty insecure at times.
Our daughter did her university dissertation on bullying. She knows nothing about what I've written here, nobody does, not even my wife. My daughter chose the subject having suffered the loss of a former boyfriend to suicide who cited bullying as his reason in a note he left.
I have chosen to put it on here in the hope that it may bring to peoples' notice just what extremes can happen when continually repeating something that others may find disconcerting. There is no place for bullying anywhere and there's definitely no reason. Sadly, there are too many arseholes in the world ready and willing to prey on what they perceive to be other peoples' weaknesses.
I told both our kids when I knew they were both going into teaching to choose their words very carefully when talking to their pupils as they may never know the profound effect those words could have.
Bravo and Respect
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Even without knowing the facts, you would think it should be standard to suspend the accused party while the case being investigated. What is excusable is how the family of the boy was left in the dark about the process, and how unclear we all are on the process of changing the culture. The club have handled this very badly.
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I'm not sure what I find most startling - the suggestion that there is a culture of bullying at Villa or that so many posters seem to think there is a "fine line" between motivation and bullying and can't seem to tell the difference.
Well for me it's quite obvious that, as with most things in life, there are grey areas where opinion, interpretation and context come into it. Whilst some cases may be blatantly obvious, I don't see how it can always be as black and white as you seem to be suggesting. There are far too many variables at play, including the sensitivity of the individuals involved, the power balance etc.
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I agree wholeheartedly with Risso's view that bullying is easy to define. It can be hard to identify immediately because it comes in many forms, but it's all definable and none of it is excusable. Verbal abuse and humiliation, as referred to in this article, is completely unacceptable and unnecessary in any workplace, and anyone using that as a tool to control or 'manage' is a bully. I can't see any grey area there whatsoever.
I'm afraid I'd disagree with that.
And that is not ignoring some of the posters on here and the first hand accounts they have shared. I'm sure they knew what they endured was bullying and it was bullying, by the sounds of it.
But the school bully or the workplace bully who does it for kicks is a bit different to the stern, sergeant major-type. The first two aren't doing it for your benefit in any way, shape or form. The latter might reason that he is. And a lot depends of the nature of the workplace environment you are going into. If it is a quiet, laid back office tasked with ordering stationary or whatever, behavior like that stands out a mile. But in a competitive football environment or even on a busy newspaper with deadlines, raised voices and out and out bollockings are not scarce. I don't know K Mac personally. Maybe he is a nasty barsteward. And I have no particular affinity for him either way. The youth set up has been in dire need of a shake-up for a while. New ideas and a new approach.
But if we pot him, it has to be for the right reasons. We'd need more than what -on the surface- could be sour grapes from a young player who was let go.
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Unfortunately I think bullying and football are deeply intertwined.
Almost every week on match of the day Shearer drops the phrase "he bullied their center halves all day long" as glowing endearment.
I think it was Pardew who got into trouble for using the word raped, I've never seen anyone take issue with Shearer's choice of words, I bet he'll use it tonight!
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Bullying?
You want to have a look at what some people post on this forum!
Mind you, as some will tell you on here, you don't have to put up with it. You can always do what the bullies want, and walk away/stop posting. Or, the other one, "Don't be so sensitive. Maybe this forum isn't for you".
Its funny though. The amount of people who have come on this thread to say "how terrible bullying is", and " it shouldn't be allowed ", then go off to attack people that disagree with them on other posts.
Hypocritical?
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Could we have some examples of what you see as bullying on this forum?
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Villa75 you are unequivocally the most aggressive, bombastic contributor on this site.
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we certainly got bullied by millwall today
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Bullying is not necessarily of the kicking, punching and shouting kind. It can be snidey, insidious and psychological. I was never bullied in the awful way some of the posters have outlined, but the abuse I did receive at school and outside affected me and continues to do so. I was a fat kid, and consequently this demolished my self esteem and self image. I was so used to having the piss ripped out of me that after I had a growth spurt, I recall going to the local shop and some little scrote saying, 'what are you looking at, you big-eared c***' and being overjoyed that he hadn't called me fat. That was all psychological. You can blow a hole in a mountain with dynamite, but it takes a river to make it a canyon.
I can't think of a single instance where you get an improved reaction by shouting and bawling at somebody and telling them they're shit. To be honest I would have thought MacDonald would have been drummed out of the club ages ago even without this kind of crap.
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It looks to me like the Villa are no different to any other organisation when it comes to this sort of thing. Claim there's been an investigation but refuse to say exactly into what, by whom or what has been done. Have a bunch of confidentiality clauses and tell us everything is fine and lessons have been learned to ensure this will never happen again. See also Birmingham social services' dead kids division, Rotherham council ad nauseum, NHS trusts, media organisations. And don't worry, you can always cast doubt on the victim who either dressed provocatively, was upset they didn't get a promotion or couldn't hack that they weren't good enough to make it. If McDonald did nothing wrong the club should say so. If he did but it doesn't warrant further sanction, they should say so and what. If it does require sanction, ditto. Instead we get opaqueness and the standard bollocks.
To take just one of Villa's non-answers, how on earth is the number of players who have come through the academy relevant in all this? If there has been one or one hundred instances of wrong behaviour at the club it should be openly dealt with, not because we have a right to know but because every time an inquiry is held behind closed doors there is no deterrent to those who might do the same again. There is nothing for our club to feel good about in all this and no excuse for our actions since this latest issue was raised.
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Could we have some examples of what you see as bullying on this forum?
I have a feeling you could be waiting a while
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It looks to me like the Villa are no different to any other organisation when it comes to this sort of thing. Claim there's been an investigation but refuse to say exactly into what, by whom or what has been done. Have a bunch of confidentiality clauses and tell us everything is fine and lessons have been learned to ensure this will never happen again. See also Birmingham social services' dead kids division, Rotherham council ad nauseum, NHS trusts, media organisations. And don't worry, you can always cast doubt on the victim who either dressed provocatively, was upset they didn't get a promotion or couldn't hack that they weren't good enough to make it. If McDonald did nothing wrong the club should say so. If he did but it doesn't warrant further sanction, they should say so and what. If it does require sanction, ditto. Instead we get opaqueness and the standard bollocks.
To take just one of Villa's non-answers, how on earth is the number of players who have come through the academy relevant in all this? If there has been one or one hundred instances of wrong behaviour at the club it should be openly dealt with, not because we have a right to know but because every time an inquiry is held behind closed doors there is no deterrent to those who might do the same again. There is nothing for our club to feel good about in all this and no excuse for our actions since this latest issue was raised.
Excellent post Simon.
Not rocket science just a solid, common-sense approach to how a club of the size and reputation of Aston Villa should be handling this - both internally and externally.
I would love to get this post read-out when this is being discussed at a senior level and watch them look at each other and realise just how far short they seem to have fallen both in dealing with the issue and transparently reporting how they have dealt with it.
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It looks to me like the Villa are no different to any other organisation when it comes to this sort of thing. Claim there's been an investigation but refuse to say exactly into what, by whom or what has been done. Have a bunch of confidentiality clauses and tell us everything is fine and lessons have been learned to ensure this will never happen again. See also Birmingham social services' dead kids division, Rotherham council ad nauseum, NHS trusts, media organisations. And don't worry, you can always cast doubt on the victim who either dressed provocatively, was upset they didn't get a promotion or couldn't hack that they weren't good enough to make it. If McDonald did nothing wrong the club should say so. If he did but it doesn't warrant further sanction, they should say so and what. If it does require sanction, ditto. Instead we get opaqueness and the standard bollocks.
To take just one of Villa's non-answers, how on earth is the number of players who have come through the academy relevant in all this? If there has been one or one hundred instances of wrong behaviour at the club it should be openly dealt with, not because we have a right to know but because every time an inquiry is held behind closed doors there is no deterrent to those who might do the same again. There is nothing for our club to feel good about in all this and no excuse for our actions since this latest issue was raised.
Excellent post.
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Could we have some examples of what you see as bullying on this forum?
Piss off you frog.
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I feel targeted.