Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Match Threads & Player Ratings => Topic started by: PeterWithesShin on August 09, 2017, 06:46:03 PM
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGziYiiXkAEKj8h.jpg)
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After a third pitch inspection the game is on.
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Looks like if left side whatever that formation is!
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With those subs the starting 11 need to get it sewn up early.
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Good to see the Russian and RDL on the bench.
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Is that going to be 3-5-2?!
Interesting stuff. O'Hare starting is an interesting call and a very young bench if the first 11 isn't producing.
Good to see De Laet back.
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Like the look of that, nice shape and youngsters thrown in, almost like a top club.
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Disappointing for Colchester fans not to see our proper first team. They must be gutted at forking out money and missing out on seeing Gabby, Bacuna, Hutton etc in the flesh.
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Bruce out.
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I must admit I've never heard of O'Hare before.
Has he even been a sub before?
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No Richards so that's good and nice to see a few returners from injury - just Jedi Grealish and Kodjia still out I think.
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Could anyone in a million years have predicted that line-up? Looks great! Hope Audrey comes on to destroy 'em.
Also, bearing in mind the number of fringe and youth players involved can we take it that Gardner/Elphick/Richards/Caramac are all either on the way out or injured?
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Disappointing for Colchester fans not to see our proper first team. They must be gutted at forking out money and missing out on seeing Gabby, Bacuna, Hutton etc in the flesh.
HA HA
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The pitch is meant to be sodden on the flanks according to Matterface.
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Adomah and Onomah should just pass the ball back and forth to each other to drive the commentators crazy.
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Adomah and Onomah should just pass the ball back and forth to each other to drive the commentators crazy.
Class.
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The pitch is meant to be sodden on the flanks according to Matterface.
Bet it's not this bad!
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Is that going to be 3-5-2?!
Interesting stuff. O'Hare starting is an interesting call and a very young bench if the first 11 isn't producing.
Good to see De Laet back.
Have to admit that was my first thought, unless Bjarnason is playing LB. If the latter option is true then I guess it might mean Amavi is off and we will need some cover there.
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No Richards so that's good and nice to see a few returners from injury - just Jedi Grealish and Kodjia still out I think.
I hope Richards can find another club, one of our worst ever signings.
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I would have liked that team against Hull
with Terry and Johnstone
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Win by two clear goals, make me some money Villa.
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Got a different take on this game now after that lineup. If he played the 11 he played Sat he was set up to be criticised no matter what the result, but with the kids in I'm not only sympathetic but also optimistic
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No Richards so that's good and nice to see a few returners from injury - just Jedi Grealish and Kodjia still out I think.
I hope Richards can find another club, one of our worst ever signings.
Good luck finding a team stupid enough to pay 50k for the fat oaf
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Is Gary Gardner injured ?
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Disappointing for Colchester fans not to see our proper first team. They must be gutted at forking out money and missing out on seeing Gabby, Bacuna, Hutton etc in the flesh.
They wouldn't be able to handle seeing Gabby and Richards in the flesh.
I like this line up. Interesting.
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Is Gary Gardner injured ?
Not in our plans for this season so not being included.
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Like the look of that, nice shape and youngsters thrown in, almost like a top club.
Would someone mind taking me through that shape, please? If it's a flat, back four, who's LB? And if it is a three at the back, who are the wing backs?
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I think Bjarnason is left back.
Shame for him that he's only played a handful of games and seems to be in a different position each time. It must be hard to settle.
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Disappointing for Colchester fans not to see our proper first team. They must be gutted at forking out money and missing out on seeing Gabby, Bacuna, Hutton etc in the flesh.
They wouldn't be able to handle seeing Gabby and Richards in the flesh.
I like this line up. Interesting.
Agreed. I am intrigued
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How dare SB try something more left field, modern and youthful.
Dinasour has hit his head.
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4 4 1 1 with O Hare supporting Hogan ?
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4 4 1 1 with O Hare supporting Hogan ?
Could even be a Chelsea style 3-4-3. Would probably suit Adomah and Bjarnasson better than one of them being stuck at full-back.
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Like the line up. Let's see if Bodger can get them to function as a team.
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It's a Bruce side so it's 8-1-1.
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Knowing our luck the pitch will be really bad and screw up what looks quite a decent line up.
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I think Bjarnason is left back.
Shame for him that he's only played a handful of games and seems to be in a different position each time. It must be hard to settle.
Taylor needs competition though if Amavi is moving and Bjarnasson isn't much cop further up the field, maybe this will be more up his street. He likes to tackle and put himself about so why not?
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Green to score tonight.
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It's a Bruce side so it's 8-1-1.
You think he'll go with a midfield?
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Dont know how physical onomah is, him and hourihane could be in for a slog
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How dare SB try something more left field, modern and youthful.
Dinasour has hit his head.
Can you post without being intentionally antagonistic?
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It's a Bruce side so it's 8-1-1.
You think he'll go with a midfield?
Yes but it's Chris Samba!
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Let's bum them back to Roman times. 0-1, Villa.
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I love this team with the exception of Samba. Add Jack and Kodjia to it will be perfect. Come on Villa.
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I would have liked that team against Hull
with Terry and Johnstone
5 4 2 with 2 keepers.
Bold. ;)
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I reckon most of us over estimated the attendance in GTC! Although my mate is still on a coach due to traffic.
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Colchester have never won a LC game at this stadium.
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Is it me or is that pitch massive?
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massive and soaked
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Colchester have never won a LC game at this stadium.
You had to say it
:)
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Only after the commentator did, so blame him!
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massive and soaked
Tell me more.
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Do they still only select players with Roman heritage?
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Is it just me who gets this song in my head when I see the new sponsor''s name?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ2C7ZetzCc
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massive and soaked
Tell me more.
Like do you have a car?
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Evening all. One or two empty seats,m'lord
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Cor.
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Well, that's an all time classic
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That'll do.
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Looks like I joined the thread just in time.
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Now it's a pen against Samba
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Cor.
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Oh ffs. Go i up the concede a pen
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Jesus....proper Villa
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An absolute screamer!!
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Cor.
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Terrible tackle by Samba. Good save by Steer
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Great save Steer!
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wicked save
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WTF
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Jed ( Full Metal Jacket ) Steer, great save.
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I thought that Green was going to touch Hogan's shot as it trickled towards the goal
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Pissing myself watching Sambas tackle again....like a spinning kick on Street Fighter.
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Samba tried to kick his ankle into AD50.
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No wonder Samba usually plays up front if that's his defending!
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Why not hang that free kick up for Samba
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Exciting start.
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That was a real Villa minute.
Score, shoot self in head.
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No wonder Samba usually plays up front if that's his defending!
Looked like he pointed as if to say he'd won the ball
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That piece of defensive work by Samba was as dire as anything you'd be likely to see at this level.
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Boring boring Villa!
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I win £35 if Hogan scores again... or £1,755 if Samba scores a header!
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No wonder Samba usually plays up front if that's his defending!
Looked like he pointed as if to say he'd won the ball
And rightly he fooled no one.
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They're a bit precious aren't they - commit blatant fouls then have a hissy fit at the ref
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That Colchester number 10 is a bit of a dick
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Bad miss from Hogan. Should have buried that header.
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Happy Steer got a nice start. Do him some good.
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Quite like the look of ohare, quick brain and quick feet
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We took the lead at around the same time last year against Luton didn't we?
Let's hope that's the only similarity.
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Conditions are bad but this has been dreadfully poor from both sides. Did Green try and touch the ball when Hogan scored?
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Cor.
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Goal
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Original Gangsta from an offside position
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Frankie Kent...Hello Matron
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Wooo!!!
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OG :)
Good cross from Adomah
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Two truly magnificent goals.
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Own goal
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Can we play you every week
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Only another 15 minutes and we should start to retreat into our she'll and defend for 60 minutes.
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Kent should have let the ball pass on the basis that Hogan would probably have missed
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Samba is the other end of Gestede's pantomime horse.
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Samba's been found out tonight so far
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Samba is having a stinker without having to do anything.
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How shit is samba
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Some good defending by Bjork
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I'm taking a break to watch Mo, back at 2-2.
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Samba just trying to keep the game interesting leave him alone.
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How shit is samba
I think we're finding out why we weren't fighting people for his signature
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Samba is the other end of Gestede's pantomime horse.
Ha Ha brilliant
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We want 10, we want 10!
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Samba's best deployed in a back twelve.
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Samba really looks like he is missing a brain when Terry isn't there to tell him what to do.
Big difference from how he looked in pre-season.
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Samba's best deployed in a back twelve.
For someone else.
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How shit is samba
I think we're finding out why we weren't fighting people for his signature
If he's our 3rd choice ch were in trouble
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Not the most comfortable 0-2 at the moment
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Samba's best deployed in a back twelve.
For someone else.
After the final whistle.
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Onomah, do doo be-do-do
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0z79jnz9v60/hqdefault.jpg)
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If Villa score four, I think that Joe stages a pitch invasion
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I can see this being called off... would be fucking typical.
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its going to be abandoned isn't it?
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The condition of the pitch isn't going to help a unit like Samba, he'll be ok on most pitches we'll play on.
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Now the game's in the bag we need to take Samba off and save him for the weekend
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My mate's coach finally arrived and they're in the ground.
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It's a new pitch apparently and they said the drainage is pretty good on it...lets see.
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We've gone two-nil up by mistake.
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The condition of the pitch isn't going to help a unit like Samba, he'll be ok on most pitches we'll play on.
The condition of the pitch has nothing to do with it - he's simply shit.
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Colchester are trying to bulldozer the ball into the net.
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I hear Sky are calling in Jacques Cousteau for the second half.
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Samba looks about as pacey as Cecil Fielder*
*One for Mr Sox
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Mis-directed by Green but right idea - dodgy keeper and terrible conditions so shoot on sight
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Even against teams at this level we concede possession from a throw in
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My mate's coach finally arrived and they're in the ground.
Mate...yea stop fibbing.
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Samba looks about as pacey as Cecil Fielder*
*One for Mr Sox
That's a player from so long ago that his soon has also retired
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I hope no one is surprised at how shit Samba is?
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Could someone please pm with a decent link? My normal means of viewing games just died. Thanks.
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I've got one eye on Mo Farah and one eye on the Villa. Every now and then it looks like Albert Adomah is being chased Benny Hill style by ten Ethiopians, while Mo Farah slices a clearance onto the boot of a Colchester forward.
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Good goalkeeping from Steer there.
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Oh dear.
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roll on
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Good touch for the Colchester goal
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Implode time
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Sigh.
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Bollocks
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Christ our defence is dreadful.
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That touch from their player was too subtle for Samba
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We know what happens next.
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Good goalkeeping from Steer there.
My Norwich supporting workmate couldn't understand how Bunn was getting in ahead of him.
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sleeping tablets have kicked to early
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Serves me right for laughing at dirty leeds
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Can we create some chances for Hogan please.
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Good goalkeeping from Steer there.
My Norwich supporting workmate couldn't understand how Bunn was getting in ahead of him.
He was injured all last season
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Commentator has just summed us up. "They'd retreated into their shell after the second goal"
Same as it ever was.
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Bruce out, singing in the shower has resulted in this downpour.
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If I was the Colchester manager i'd be telling my players to target running at Samba as he's been gash.
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Abysmal game so far.
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The game has been stretched right from the off. It's as if the game's been played like the board's gone up with 3 minutes added time. It's all because of the defence in my opinion.
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It wouldn't be Aston Villa would it without a bit of drama
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Good goalkeeping from Steer there.
My Norwich supporting workmate couldn't understand how Bunn was getting in ahead of him.
He was injured all last season
I thought we farmed him out on loan. That explains a lot.
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Could someone please pm with a decent link? My normal means of viewing games just died. Thanks.
done
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Has anyone tried a Carabao drink? I don't think that I've seen one in the shops
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Have our central midfield even had a touch?
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Commentator has just summed us up. "They'd retreated into their shell after the second goal"
Same as it ever was.
Yeah commentators know it and so do every team we play against. Someway somehow we have to break the cycle. Over to you Brucie
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If anyone can't see the atrocious pitch and weather, with our "experimental" side is a leveller then god help us.
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Not another half time lead.
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well lose this were shit at the back
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Great dummy by Bjork. Sorry - what a dummy Bjork
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We're outstanding. At being shit.
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That was comical from Bjork
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Not another half time lead.
Almost wasn't!
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I hope that was our shit half.
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Well that was errr shit
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Bjarnasson and Samba are fucking useless.
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We're outstanding. At being shit.
Look at the score, look at team, look at the weather....breathe, then type again.
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We're outstanding. At being shit.
We make looking shit our speciality. The Tottenham lad looks like has something so there is hope.
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Well a decent first 25 and then went a bit wank. I know the conditions aren't great and it's a different starting 11 but conditions are the same for a side 2 divisions below us who are missing players and conceded 6 at the weekend.
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We were nicely controlling the game until they scored. It's not all doom and gloom yet.
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How dare we be winning at half time with this team and this weather...boooooo
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How dare we be winning at half time win this team and this weather...boooooo
Bore off.
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We're outstanding. At being shit.
We make looking shit our speciality. The Tottenham lad looks like has something so there is hope.
We'll soon coach that out of him
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Well a decent first 25 and then went a bit wank. I know the conditions aren't great and it's a different starting 11 but conditions are the same for a side 2 divisions below us who are missing players and conceded 6 at the weekend.
When you put it that way... yeah.
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We were nicely controlling the game until they scored. It's not all doom and gloom yet.
No we usually do that in the second half.
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Well a decent first 25 and then went a bit wank. I know the conditions aren't great and it's a different starting 11 but conditions are the same for a side 2 divisions below us who are missing players and conceded 6 at the weekend.
6? They lost 3-1.
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well lose this were shit at the back
We still are.
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Happy to be winning. We haven't been great but it's hard to tell just how bad the conditions are, I think.
After recent seasons I don't expect to hammer them. Just get the job done, please.
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Well a decent first 25 and then went a bit wank. I know the conditions aren't great and it's a different starting 11 but conditions are the same for a side 2 divisions below us who are missing players and conceded 6 at the weekend.
They lost 3-1 but the point still stands, we look utter wank again.
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In fairness, they lost three-one to a side that have since beaten Preston.
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Well a decent first 25 and then went a bit wank. I know the conditions aren't great and it's a different starting 11 but conditions are the same for a side 2 divisions below us who are missing players and conceded 6 at the weekend.
When you put it that way... yeah.
Stop exaggerating. They only conceded 3 at the weekend. To Accrington Stanley (exactly)
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Bollocks, the 3 is below the 6 and I forgot to add Accrington Stanley (who are they). Apart from that though it was an ace post!
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We never seem to be in control of a game regardless of the opposition.
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O Hare very good, Samba very shit, Green pretty shit, Bjarnasson a mix of quite good and very shit, Onomah quite good, Steer and Hogan did their job. Others ok, weather making it tricky, not convinced we'll still win.
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Of course it was.
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Hogan's work rate has been excellent. Hourihane on the other hand has been poor, you never see him on the ball.
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Good job we usually play better in the second half...oh
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I blame the weather for them having 10 attempts to our 4!
Edit: Beeb have it as 14-4
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O Hare very good, Samba very shit, Green pretty shit, Bjarnasson a mix of quite good and very shit, Onomah quite good, Steer and Hogan did their job. Others ok, weather making it tricky, not convinced we'll still win.
Agree with all that👍
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Anyone know who we've got on the bench?
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Anyone know who we've got on the bench?
U 10's
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Hogan's work rate has been excellent. Hourihane on the other hand has been poor, you never see him on the ball.
I'd agree with that. Hourihane did have one free kick in an excellent position and produced an awful effort. I thought free kicks were his forte' and Hogan is working his socks off but needs to be smarter and stop running willy nilly into offside positions.
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Anyone know who we've got on the bench?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGziYiiXkAEKj8h.jpg)
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There really seems to be a oh so familiar tone being set here.
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I see both Angela and Audrey are on the bench.
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Has anyone tried a Carabao drink? I don't think that I've seen one in the shops
too Moosey for my tastes.
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Get an early goal and put this lot away.
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Ta. A couple on there I've never heard of
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Has anyone tried a Carabao drink? I don't think that I've seen one in the shops
No, but I've just watched a snake swallow one on YouTube. Impressive.
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We're making harder work of it than we should be doing. Audrey's pace for maybe O'hare might be a good idea at some point.
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Has anyone tried a Carabao drink? I don't think that I've seen one in the shops
too Moosey for my tastes.
Reason the pitch is wet is because of the rain dear.
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That was better from Hogan.
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Anyone know who we've got on the bench?
I think ive seen Brian Little and Ian Taylor
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Get an early goal and put this lot away.
Colchester supporters are probably thinking the exact same thing.
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Fuck Grealish....
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Ohare definitely got something
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Fuck Grealish....
Hah?
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Has anyone tried a Carabao drink? I don't think that I've seen one in the shops
too Moosey for my tastes.
Reason the pitch is wet is because of the rain dear.
I gnu you'd say that
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That was better from Hogan.
Superb back heel from Ohare to set him up
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I like this O'Hare. Can we sign someone called Mulligan to play alongside him, please?
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Nice from O'Rabbit
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Stop the yacketty yak.
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I like this O'Hare. Can we sign someone called Mulligan to play alongside him, please?
Shame that Villa got rid of Graham Burke
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Nice from O'Rabbit
O'dear
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Nice from O'Rabbit
That kind of quip bugs me
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Bruce must be tearing his old ladies hair out. Defend the lead you twats.
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Ohare definitely got something
Definitely the bright spot of the night so far.
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Nice from O'Rabbit
That kind of quip bugs me
What up Sox?
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Green has Huttons end product
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What's that yellow card for?
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What was that booking for?
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Green has Huttons end product
Has he beaten a man yet?
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Trying to free yourself from a player is now a yellow card apparently.
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Come on Bruce, take Green off and bring Angela on, need to defend this lead.
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What's that yellow card for?
Looked like Grean was trying to teabag the defender
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Nice from O'Rabbit
That kind of quip bugs me
What up Sox?
Yeh what's up Blueshoes?
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Do any of our youth players practice heading?
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Green couldn't beat an egg.
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Nice from O'Rabbit
That kind of quip bugs me
What up Sox?
;D
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Green has Huttons end product
Has he beaten a man yet?
Nope
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Green couldn't beat an egg.
Or ham.
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Obvious tonight that Elmo is an upgrade on Albert
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Can't see what everybodys problem is, we always raise our game to match the opposition.
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Great ball in by Green, only one player in the box though.
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Obvious tonight that Elmo is an upgrade on Albert
Definitely
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Great ball in by Green, only one player in the box though.
One of the many issue's I have with Bruce.
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Green; see Moore brothers, Delfounso, et al.
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Hourihane wants to be subbed....I think
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Well those shot stats aren't right, they had us on 4 and that's what we had in the first half.
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Good move marginally offside
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BBC now says seven shots. Are we wearing the away kit?
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Off the line from Adomah.
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Should have scored. Good work by Onomah
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FFS how many attempts they need?
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Great ball in by Green, only one player in the box though.
One of the many issue's I have with Bruce.
That's not a Bruce problem that's down to Adomah, O'Hare busting a gut to get in there.
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Could have finished them there. Get a third, please.
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Stats are the ones in the top left hand corner next to the time.
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Oooh.
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I like this O'Hare. Can we sign someone called Mulligan to play alongside him, please?
Hotdogs for sale! But where? But where?
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Finally looking a bit more dangerous.
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Hopefully RDL will get a run out at left back
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What time is it coming? I'll say 92 minutes.
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What time is it coming? I'll say 92 minutes.
Nah the opposing manager just made a change. No response from Bruce means we will concede sooner than that :)
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Hogan is fucking rubbish.
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Onomatopoeia growing into this game
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We need to score when we are on top, this is a fault time and time again and we end up getting our pants pulled down in the end. Fucking score and put the game to bed.
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Leeds 3-1 now
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ive read this book before, really nasty ending.
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Leeds 3-1 now
Aberdeen 1 up
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Great ball in by Green, only one player in the box though.
One of the many issue's I have with Bruce.
That's not a Bruce problem that's down to Adomah, O'Hare busting a gut to get in there.
It is a Bruce problem and its a constant problem we have because we sit too deep. The midfield are never close enough to the strikers because Bruce like's to keep things tight at the back which doesn't work either.
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RHM coming on
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I think Hourihane has done well tonight. He needs to start ahead of Lansbury. Impressed with O'Hare as as well.
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Davis needed
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I think Hourihane has done well tonight. He needs to start ahead of Lansbury. Impressed with O'Hare as as well.
I agree
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Agent Kinsella is in
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RHM coming on
Oooh! Good to see.
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I think Hourihane has done well tonight. He needs to start ahead of Lansbury. Impressed with O'Hare as as well.
I agree
Agree with this - I think Onomah has looked better and better as well as he's got into the game.
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Leeds 3-1 now
That's not the Villa way, how dare you.
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ive read this book before, really nasty ending.
They all float down here.
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Onomatopoeia growing into this game
He's clicked.
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Well you can't say we haven't been on the front foot this half.
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Shocking Villa, how the fook are we winning this.
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Fair to say Bjork probably isn't a LB.
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Shocking Villa, how the fook are we winning this.
2 lucky goals.
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Davis looking at the colouring book before coming out to play.
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I wonder if we actually practice conceding possession from throw-ins - we're so good at it
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Samba is in a hoop.
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Youth!!
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Well you can't say we haven't been on the front foot this half.
Hasn't done us much good though has it? 5 out of 10 on the eye. Still a way off achieving anything.
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Shocking Villa, how the fook are we winning this.
2 lucky goals.
Offside and offside again.
Bruce has bunged the Lino.
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Good referee this.
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Our first goal wasn't offside.
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Our first goal wasn't offside.
Correct. Hogan wasn't interfering when he was in an offside position.
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Bjarnasson yet again proving to be a liability.
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Good job they didn't have anyone following in.
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Barny has tried to help them twice in the lady five minutes.
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Bjarnasson yet again proving to be a liability.
He really is useless
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lady five minutes.
My perfect woman.
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Is Bruce planning to bring Bunn on to strengthen central defence for last 10 minutes?
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Great save Jed
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Steer. M.O.M.
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Great save Steer. We're really doing our best to blow this
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Brilliant Jed
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JED!
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lady five minutes.
My perfect woman.
made me chuckle.
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Phew....that was close
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Good save from Steer.
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Bloody hell. Well played Steer but christ, shouldnt be needed.
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Great save by Steer.
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JED I love you
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Any chance of looking good any time soon?
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It sounds on WM like we're completely under the cosh here.
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Kids not controlling this😥
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We're giving more away than DFS on a bank holiday.
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Jed, how you have saved me another half an hour of this tripe I can't thank you.
Roll on seeing Gabby, Bacuna and JT Saturday.
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Bree to LB & RDL to RB
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Good job samba is in there
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Clinging on against Colchester, what a time to be alive!
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You can't say that Bruce isn't proactive, FKN joke.
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We don't do easy. I can't recall the last time I felt at ease watching a Villa game.
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Any chance of looking good any time soon?
Not while Bruce is in charge.
Having to rely on Steer to keep us in the match is very disheartening.
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We don't do easy. I can't recall the last time I felt at ease watching a Villa game.
When we beat Everton 6-2
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We're giving more away than DFS on a bank holiday.
Applauds.
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Is the Russian on yet?
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We haven't had one corner
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We're giving more away than DFS on a bank holiday.
Why? have they got a sale on?
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5 minutes? For what?
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wtf - 5 minutes?
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5 minutes???
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Is the Russian on yet?
Yep
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:(
We haven't had one corner
I'm only interested in the corner we eventually effing turn.
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Just how very, very poor is Bjarnason. Hopeless. For anybody saying "there's a player in there somewhere", there isn't.
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Fuck me, we're even shit at time wasting.
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:(We haven't had one corner
I'm only interested in the corner we eventually effing turn.
It's an endless roundabout.
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wtf - 5 minutes?
You're forgetting that long delay when the players were trying to retrieve a rubber brick from the deep end
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Barny on the move there and a CORNER
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Just how very, very poor is Bjarnason. Hopeless. For anybody saying "there's a player in there somewhere", there isn't.
There's a whale fisherman in there somewhere.
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Corner? Last second goal?
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Quality from the corner
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Just how very, very poor is Bjarnason. Hopeless. For anybody saying "there's a player in there somewhere", there isn't.
100%
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Both Hourihane and Barnie need to pull their socks up. Awful, awful, awful.
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I think we've just took the worst corner in history
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How is that not a yellow for catching the ball?
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Agent Kinsella
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Nice free kick from Agent Kinsella
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Never in doubt
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Yay!
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:(We haven't had one corner
I'm only interested in the corner we eventually effing turn.
It's an endless roundabout.
And I want to get off.
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Phew.
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Agent Kinsella there. We need one to get over the line
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Lots of youngsters out there tonight, no excuses for Bjarnasson and Samba though although Samba better second half.
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A few positives - we won, Chester was solid throughout, Onomah and O'Hare showed some decent touches at times and DeLaet came on, but that was about it really. Conditions were bad, but we looked a pretty poor outfit again.
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Lots of youngsters out there tonight, no excuses for Bjarnasson and Samba though although Samba better second half.
Yeah to be fair to him Samba had a decent 2nd half. Good job he was like Bambi on ice in the first. Good run out for the youth.
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Uninspiring but at least not embarrassing. Samba better 2nd half and Bjarnasson not as bad as a few people have said, he was a bit better 2nd half also. A lot of mediocre performances, O Hare very good first half but faded, maybe fitness? Showed a lot of promise early on anyway.