Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Tugby Villain on October 23, 2016, 05:39:28 PM
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Fantastic article about 'ultras' groups in the Guardian. Felt like I ought to post it, as it makes a very relevant point.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/oct/23/premier-league-ultras-european-football
Is this something to think about?
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Id welcome it.Saw alot of games in Italy in the early 90s and some of the crowds were magnificent,Napoli being the best.Its a shame that the over zealous stewards were so harsh on the Brigada lot in L7 last season.
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i sat by brigada a couple of times and found the whole thing too contrived and fake. plus all of the political bollocks left or right has no place at football
give the crowd something to cheer about and there is no need
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I think the example of how it can work well is the group of fans in that corner at Palace, who really are noticeable by what they bring to the atmosphere at Selhurst Park, even on TV.
Particularly in Italy, the 'darker' side of ultra-ism is often closely tied to less-than-savoury non-sporting third parties and in many leagues across the continent the power that sections of fans have over the goings on at certain clubs (Marseille is one currently that springs to mind, where the majority of ticket-selling is run by small groups of ultras) is not good at all.
There's nothing to suggest that would happen in England though so I'd like to see groups in the ilk of Brigada allowed to at least exist (managed by the club as opposed to being suppressed) within the ground - could definitely bring something positive, and quite often a better atmosphere = better attitude from the players.
Oswald makes a point though - has to be genuine - I'd hate to see a sort of club-backed contrived 'ultra' section...
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To answer the title of this thread - There isn't one and I doubt there ever will be. Trying to copycat Europeans will never work because footballing culture is so different in this country.
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To answer the title of this thread - There isn't one and I doubt there ever will be. Trying to copycat Europeans will never work because footballing culture is so different in this country.
You're right, but surely we can take the principles of better atmosphere and more vibrancey and use them in an 'English' way? Take Palace, for example - a very 'English' football club, but they have a really effective ultra group. Perhaps the wording is a little excessive.
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Aston Villa is a very traditional English Football Club - Our fans already are educated, supportive and objective. We do not need a fad. Perhaps Small Heath or Tescos would embrace them.
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Only thing I'd change is the lack of invention in our chants. We haven't had a good, original chant since Yorkie.
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Aston Villa is a very traditional English Football Club - Our fans already are educated, supportive and objective. We do not need a fad. Perhaps Small Heath or Tescos would embrace them.
like they could spell ultras ;)
if they did they would only sing about us and small heath would attend on a rota basis
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I live in London and go to Clapton games occasionally. Yes it is contrived and I agree the matches *should* be the stimulus, but as we've seen at Villa Park recently, sometimes a game is flat and counter productive. Having another stimuli, whether politics/anti-modern football/Birmingham/stupidness or whatever as a reason to shout and get excited cannot be a bad thing.
Put it another way, as soon as the football warrants noise, any other agenda will be forgotten so it should be welcomed in my opinion.
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Only thing I'd change is the lack of invention in our chants. We haven't had a good, original chant since Yorkie.
Oh i dunno! - i thought the "Going up, going down" thing when the noses got relegated was quite humorous.
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So Ultras are basically cheerleaders - but not on the pitch - and they're blokes...
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Only thing I'd change is the lack of invention in our chants. We haven't had a good, original chant since Yorkie.
Oh i dunno! - i thought the "Going up, going down" thing when the noses got relegated was quite humorous.
I always enjoyed the various forms of John Carew's song.
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I live in London and go to Clapton games occasionally. Yes it is contrived and I agree the matches *should* be the stimulus, but as we've seen at Villa Park recently, sometimes a game is flat and counter productive. Having another stimuli, whether politics/anti-modern football/Birmingham/stupidness or whatever as a reason to shout and get excited cannot be a bad thing.
Put it another way, as soon as the football warrants noise, any other agenda will be forgotten so it should be welcomed in my opinion.
Good point, I agree.
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I live in London and go to Clapton games occasionally. Yes it is contrived and I agree the matches *should* be the stimulus, but as we've seen at Villa Park recently, sometimes a game is flat and counter productive. Having another stimuli, whether politics/anti-modern football/Birmingham/stupidness or whatever as a reason to shout and get excited cannot be a bad thing.
Put it another way, as soon as the football warrants noise, any other agenda will be forgotten so it should be welcomed in my opinion.
Good point, I agree.
Yep - give us something to shout about and we will!
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What's so wrong with just sitting there and watching the game ?
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The whole game?
I can still leave after an hour, can't I?
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I never understand the AGAINST MODERN FOOTBALL and such like banners that are seen at Palace. Are they displaying it on behalf of somebody who is so against modern football that they don't go to matches on principal or do they pay whatever it is to go into the ground each week to show how against modern football they are?
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Whenever the chattering class get involved in sport it takes a nose dive
No need for political agenda's to be involved, especially by anyone who writes in the Guardian
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I've thought for years we need a song to get the Holte end revved up. I don't know how to post things on here but if anyone with the ability to do it could post "hibs fans singing sunshine on leith" you'll get my drift. It's absolutely awesome and I'd love to be on the Holte and belting out something like that.
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What's so wrong with just sitting there and watching the game ?
EVERYTHING
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What's so wrong with just sitting there and watching the game ?
EVERYTHING
Why? I'm as much against modern football as anyone but this whole idea that we have to make such a fuss over bringing back 'atmosphere' is as contrived as foam hands and music after a goal.
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Have the Brigada crowd moved as I don't recall hearing them much this season or more to the point hearing the drum?
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Have the Brigada crowd moved as I don't recall hearing them much this season or more to the point hearing the drum?
I think they disbanded after the wrangling with stewards last season.
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It goes with the territory of modern football.
Teams like Chelsea and Arsenal are pricing ordinary fans out of the game and are catering for day trippers, half and half scarf wearers.
They come for the atmosphere, but are actually diluting it by being there in place of the more traditional supporters you would have found years ago.
Go to the Sty on Sunday, there will be an atmosphere that does not pretend to be, or want to be Ultra, just 2 sets of fans supporting their local teams.
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What's so wrong with just sitting there and watching the game ?
EVERYTHING
Why? I'm as much against modern football as anyone but this whole idea that we have to make such a fuss over bringing back 'atmosphere' is as contrived as foam hands and music after a goal.
I'm not in favour of contrived atmosphere or anything else contrived at football matches. I really hate those "Holte end -the 12th man" and the European cup commentary banners for example. What I'm talking about is getting behind the team vocally and getting animated. Just sitting there watching the game is not my idea of enjoying watching the villa. Each to his own. Or her own for that matter!
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What's so wrong with just sitting there and watching the game ?
EVERYTHING
Why? I'm as much against modern football as anyone but this whole idea that we have to make such a fuss over bringing back 'atmosphere' is as contrived as foam hands and music after a goal.
I'm not in favour of contrived atmosphere or anything else contrived at football matches. I really hate those "Holte end -the 12th man" and the European cup commentary banners for example. What I'm talking about is getting behind the team vocally. Getting animated and just sitting there watching the game is not my idea of enjoying watching the villa. Each to his own. Or her own for that matter!
I really do see your point Dave - club-run things like Manure's 'singing section' are so artificial they are actually worse than silence, in my opinion. However, do you not think English teams could do a little more to allow greater atmosphere during the game (not actually manufacturing it)? For example, allowing safe standing would better the atmosphere, simply by virtue of the fact that people are stood up - nothing else is neccessary.
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What's so wrong with just sitting there and watching the game ?
EVERYTHING
Why? I'm as much against modern football as anyone but this whole idea that we have to make such a fuss over bringing back 'atmosphere' is as contrived as foam hands and music after a goal.
MLS is the worst. They seem to have taken all the worst bits of supporting culture and melded them together. They even stand one supported up on a platform, facing away from the pitch, to conduct the chanting. Sometimes their ultra section is on the halfway line, so i always research where they'll be before i book an MLS ticket
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What's so wrong with just sitting there and watching the game ?
EVERYTHING
Why? I'm as much against modern football as anyone but this whole idea that we have to make such a fuss over bringing back 'atmosphere' is as contrived as foam hands and music after a goal.
MLS is the worst. They seem to have taken all the worst bits of supporting culture and melded them together. They even stand one supported up on a platform, facing away from the pitch, to conduct the chanting. Sometimes their ultra section is on the halfway line, so i always research where they'll be before i book an MLS ticket
They have that - the supporter facing the wrong way - in Germany too.
Personally I think it is a good thing, after all if it's not your thing then you can sit elsewhere.
I think the standing thing stated above is the way forward - one day... - as by virtue of going into that section of the ground I think you're signing up to a more casual atmosphere. Furthermore with standing you're able to move location which is not as easy with designated seats.
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What's so wrong with just sitting there and watching the game ?
EVERYTHING
Why? I'm as much against modern football as anyone but this whole idea that we have to make such a fuss over bringing back 'atmosphere' is as contrived as foam hands and music after a goal.
Not to keen on the foam hands but the dirigible display last season was interesting. Upper Witton Lane rules.
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I've thought for years we need a song to get the Holte end revved up. I don't know how to post things on here but if anyone with the ability to do it could post "hibs fans singing sunshine on leith" you'll get my drift. It's absolutely awesome and I'd love to be on the Holte and belting out something like that.
I don't know how to embed stuff but it can be seen here:
It's awesome and spine-tingling, but nothing to do with 'ultra culture'. It's just a beautiful outpouring of joy from a bunch of fans who hadn't won that trophy in more than 100 years, and who (for the vast majority) all come from within a 5 mile radius of Easter Road, are embracing their club and and a rare chance to celebrate their end of town. Moments like that are centuries in the making and can't be 'organised' (in my opinion).
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I DO know how to embed things!
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I've thought for years we need a song to get the Holte end revved up. I don't know how to post things on here but if anyone with the ability to do it could post "hibs fans singing sunshine on leith" you'll get my drift. It's absolutely awesome and I'd love to be on the Holte and belting out something like that.
I don't know how to embed stuff but it can be seen here:
It's awesome and spine-tingling, but nothing to do with 'ultra culture'. It's just a beautiful outpouring of joy from a bunch of fans who hadn't won that trophy in more than 100 years, and who (for the vast majority) all come from within a 5 mile radius of Easter Road, are embracing their club and and a rare chance to celebrate their end of town. Moments like that are centuries in the making and can't be 'organised' (in my opinion).
Thanks for that mate. Might not be "ultra" culture but definitely orchestrated. Something on the same lines going on in the Holte would be amazing. Just need to find a tune of our own (not by man City fans) and someone to organize it with the club maybe at our last home game. Oh and last but not least something to celebrate😀
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I DO know how to embed things!
Thanks SE
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Maybe we could all clap along to the Liquidator like Chelsea "Ultras" do when their team walks out. Or get the blessing of the club to produce some sanitised banners or hand out hymn sheets with lyrics to songs we've sought club approval to sing.
Ultra culture my arsehole, it's Soccer AM culture.
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Maybe we could all clap along to the Liquidator like Chelsea "Ultras" do when their team walks out. Or get the blessing of the club to produce some sanitised banners or hand out hymn sheets with lyrics to songs we've sought club approval to sing.
Ultra culture my arsehole, it's Soccer AM culture.
Spot on. The “Don’t Look Back In Anger” thing seems organic and it’s that spontaneity that can never be replicated no matter how much people try. Learning songs as they were sung was a joy when I was going to football as a kid. I remember one bloke starting “Nigel Spink throws the ball to Platty etc” on the ferry to Calais when we went to the San Siro in 1990. By the end of that journey it felt like the whole boat was singing.
Singing at a match should have an ebb and flow, but those Palace Ultras just go on and on and on. Remember, this sort of thing ends up with abominations like the England Band.
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They have that - the supporter facing the wrong way - in Germany too.
I went to watch Mainz05 away at Gladbach and the whole away section was crouching down and facing away from the pitch at the behest of the "Arschloch mit dem Megaphon" as we call him. The weren't happy that we weren't joining in, but their antics made them miss the Gladbach equaliser. Twats.
I like the flags at home games, but listening to them sing: "Rot und Weiß - die Farben unserer Stadt" for twenty minutes straight, makes you long for silence.
I don't mind them, but Ultras at some clubs seem to have reached a sort of super-fan level and be unable to do any wrong, even in the eyes of older, dedicated fans who should know better.
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They have that - the supporter facing the wrong way - in Germany too.
I went to watch Mainz05 away at Gladbach and the whole away section was crouching down and facing away from the pitch at the behest of the "Arschloch mit dem Megaphon" as we call him. The weren't happy that we weren't joining in, but their antics made them miss the Gladbach equaliser. Twats.
I like the flags at home games, but listening to them sing: "Rot und Weiß - die Farben unserer Stadt" for twenty minutes straight, makes you long for silence.
I don't mind them, but Ultras at some clubs seem to have reached a sort of super-fan level and be unable to do any wrong, even in the eyes of older, dedicated fans who should know better.
As long as it is never "expected" of me to do anything then I am usually fine with it.
Was caught out by one round of applause last month and asked the fella next to me what it was for and he had no idea but just kept clapping...