Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: bigadamknight on March 31, 2016, 11:17:45 PM
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Hi Guys,
I have been a Villa fan forever. My Dad wasn't a football fan, but Villa won the league two months before I was born and decided that he liked the name. Plus they were successful so I wouldn't have too much disappointment following them (how wrong could he be). I am the first to admit I don't get to as many games as I would like these days. I run two businesses and have three small children. Not the best excuses in the world, but on top of them, the last five matches I have attended were all losses and terrible performances. Which after spending £100 and a day of my life just isn't something I can bring myself to do too often.
So that's my back story, I love Aston Villa and always have done. As I was growing up all my mates supported Man Utd, Liverpool or Spurs and I copped enormous amounts of shit for supporting Villa, but I didn't care they were my team. VTID indeed.
So fast-forward a few years I run two businesses a marketing agency and a software company. One of the things we've helped several companies to do recently is crowdfunding for new products and investments. For anyone that doesn't know crowdfunding is where you go to a lot of people for small investments, rather than trying to find one rich investor. Now I was looking at the Villa Facebook page which has 2.2m likes, and a thought struck me if each person that has liked that page put in £100 that would be a £220,000,000 pot.
So I guess my question here is, if there was a possibility to pay £100 to a) get rid of this owner who has frankly made us a laughing stock and b) be an owner of our fantastic football club yourself. Would you be interested? I'm prepared to do the work in putting a campaign together, but it would be great to know if anyone else would be interested or is this just a ridiculous idea?
What do you think?
Adam
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I think it is an interesting and lovely romantic concept, but don't think there is the practicality to make it work and be sustainable. 2.2m likes is one thing. Of those you would be lucky to get 20k putting their hand in their pocket I fear.
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I'm in
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Welcome to the site. The question you pose has been asked a few times, and in my opinion it's just a total non-starter. Firstly, Facebook likes are no basis for anything. Our average crowd is 35,000, and even with latent support from the Midlands, there's just not nearly enough people who would be prepared to put money in. And even in the unlikely event that the funds were raised, who would run the club? Who would put extra money in were it required?
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If something great, groundbreaking and unique could somehow spring up out of the past four/five years of wretchedness, count me in. I know very little about how fan ownership works or how it could get off the ground in a Villa context but, if it happened, would I be willing to chip in? Yes.
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I don't think its as far fetched as some think - there are other British clubs fan owned (Exeter and Portsmouth perhaps the biggest), and Barcelona is owned by 180k members. In American Football, the Packers are a good example.
The question is one of structure (what does membership mean), equity (how does it work when members leave), and numbers (the membership has to be at a price that's going to effect meaning). As Risso said, likes and buyers are two very different things. To get to a pot big enough to be taken seriously as a buyer, you'd need to raise 200m min. I'd argue membership could be offered at $10k which means you'd need to find 20k memberships (members can buy lots if so desired meaning someone wealthy wanting to put in $200k would receive the power of 10 memberships).
Could it be done - possibly, but seriously hard work and not something to even be started without a very credible and serious legal proposal because people willing and able to buy in would likely see this as a financial investment, not necessarily a 'fan movement'.
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I don't think its as far fetched as some think - there are other British clubs fan owned (Exeter and Portsmouth perhaps the biggest), and Barcelona is owned by 180k members. In American Football, the Packers are a good example.
The question is one of structure (what does membership mean), equity (how does it work when members leave), and numbers (the membership has to be at a price that's going to effect meaning). As Risso said, likes and buyers are two very different things. To get to a pot big enough to be taken seriously as a buyer, you'd need to raise 200m min. I'd argue membership could be offered at $10k which means you'd need to find 20k memberships (members can buy lots if so desired meaning someone wealthy wanting to put in $200k would receive the power of 10 memberships).
Could it be done - possibly, but seriously hard work and not something to even be started without a very credible and serious legal proposal because people willing and able to buy in would likely see this as a financial investment, not necessarily a 'fan movement'.
Isn't what you said destroyed your own argument. If people are seeing it as an investment and hence attracting $200k from some then it is no longer 'taking it back' as a fans movement. I guess the average fan would struggle to justify more than 1k which for a fans movement would require 200k fans. Can't see it myself.
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OK so if you look at how Barcelona and Real Madrid are structured. They have 150,000+ members who pay an annual fee of €140. This obviously only raises €21m a season but they have other revenue streams. The members also get discounted season tickets, discounts in stores and other perks like free access to open training and stadium tours and events.
I suppose it comes down to the fact we are all hoping some mega-rich messiah is going to come along and fund massive spending. I don't think this is going to happen. For every Roman Abramovich or Mansour bin Zayed Al Nahyan there's ten Sacha Gaydamak's.
Perhaps there could be an initial investment fund to get the club away from the current owners and then an annual scheme like Barcelona's to bring in some extra income and help to manage how the club runs. Surely there would be some ex-players that could get involved too, put some thing back in to where they got so much.
I believe some fan-run clubs do it differently but I think in Spain a President is elected by the members for a specific term (4 years) but if for any reason the fans are unhappy with his performance they have a right to recall him if a certain percentage of the members feel the need to do so. Ian Taylor for President???
This idea is maybe a week old so needs development but even just looking at the accounts over the last few years. When you look at where the money has gone. The amount that has gone to players that have frankly not been good enough but still getting paid astronomical wages. Let's not even start on Tom Fox... Taking this year as an example can anyone say if we had played our U21's they would have faired any worse? I know Leicester are having an absolute dream of a season but they really are showing what you can do with a team who genuinely play for each other and for the fans. I think it's the fans here that have been taken for granted at every single level.
Maybe this could be the chance to create an example of how things could/should be.
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It's one of those ideas that as Ozz says, sounds great and romantic, in reality it will never happen. There's a reason Portsmouth are the biggest fan owned club in this country, how much did the fans pay for a 4th division club in administration for what, the third time in a few years? A couple of million iirc. Exeter fans paid something like 20K for a club in the Conference a decade ago, and that was mainly because most of the board at the time were arrested. The trust has raised less than £2m for the club since.
What the trusts at those clubs have done is great in securing their clubs still exist, and all power to them, but it is a world apart from fans buying a club like Aston Villa, even a division 2 Aston Villa.
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I don't think its as far fetched as some think - there are other British clubs fan owned (Exeter and Portsmouth perhaps the biggest), and Barcelona is owned by 180k members. In American Football, the Packers are a good example.
The question is one of structure (what does membership mean), equity (how does it work when members leave), and numbers (the membership has to be at a price that's going to effect meaning). As Risso said, likes and buyers are two very different things. To get to a pot big enough to be taken seriously as a buyer, you'd need to raise 200m min. I'd argue membership could be offered at $10k which means you'd need to find 20k memberships (members can buy lots if so desired meaning someone wealthy wanting to put in $200k would receive the power of 10 memberships).
Could it be done - possibly, but seriously hard work and not something to even be started without a very credible and serious legal proposal because people willing and able to buy in would likely see this as a financial investment, not necessarily a 'fan movement'.
Isn't what you said destroyed your own argument. If people are seeing it as an investment and hence attracting $200k from some then it is no longer 'taking it back' as a fans movement. I guess the average fan would struggle to justify more than 1k which for a fans movement would require 200k fans. Can't see it myself.
Uh no. I never said it was about taking back Villa. I was responding to the notion of could it be done. It can. But as others have said, highly unlikely and incredibly difficult
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Even if you could raise the raise, then you have the problem of running it properly and the need to appoint people who know their job in business but may not be Villa "fans" because most people can't just devote all their time to the club without having money to live. You only have to look at FCUnited and how that has descended into major squabbles because everyone has a different idea of how it should be run, and as happens with any supporter base, you get factions and cliques developing. Think you really need to someone in overall charge, and being the only person rich enough to afford the club gives you some sort of authority to make decisions if nothing else.
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I raised this on the takeovers thread and got a mix of support and poo-pooing.
I think there are a few key things :
1) How you finance the initial purchase - as its unlikely the say 50k fans needed all have on average the 3k each needed to buy it in cash outright. You would need a financial institution to help finance a purchase ie a secured loan (Villa mortgage) - if you default they get your Villa shares.
As an example , say you have to put up 20% upfront -say £600 and then pay 6% (it would have to be higher than normal rates as it carries greater risk for the lender) and the repayment period is 5 years then the monthly payment would be £46.
I would recommend a share value of £100 each. Maximum initial shares per person 10,000. Villa mortgages available from £2000 to £30000 - whatever the bank limits are.
2) You would need an annual membership fee to generate approx 20 to 25 million. If we had 50,000 members then thats £400 to £500 which is steep but you would probably need the funding to finance spending.
3) You would have to have a board of the great and the good to run things with an elected chair with fixed term but recall if over 50% of shareholders say they are dis-satisfied. You can't run a football club through the rabble of fan meetings or Internet forums.
4) Personally I think for this to work there would need to be a way of the players and manager sharing in the risks and rewards. The current setup allows laziness and greed which has infected the whole game. I don't mind a centre forward earning £100k a week but only if the results justify it. Put simply, players get a base amount and then a significant bonus for every point in a game they have played in. Eg a player now on 50k a week gets £20k basic plus £20k for every point - would certainly incentivise me if winning got me an extra £40k a week.
And yes, all of the above is fantasy but we can dream can't we?
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I'm out. The only way we can get successful again is to find loads of rich, competent people to run the club. Ordinary fans wouldn't have the money to even compete with clubs in the Championship let alone get ourselves back competing at the top end of the Premier League again. In any case, I already spend too much money on the useless bastards.
An elected fan representative would be good PR though.
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Pipe dreams yes, but as an example as part of the deal if you offer a kit manufacturer the rights to the shirts for 10 years at a fee of £25m there's a start
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I will put in my £550 ST money if it means I don't have to watch this crap for a couple of seasons
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The mechanism for doing all the above already exists. You form a company with the stated aim of taking over Aston Villa and issue shares. People buy as many or as few as they wish and when enough capital is raised you buy the club.
You would do well to sell three figures worth of shares, even though there are plenty of mugs about who are amenable to being talked into buying anything.
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It is a completely absurd idea that will never happen. Sadly
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Whilst I think the idea of a fan buyout is great, for reasons stated above, I just can't see it gaining sufficient levels of interest to raise the level of funds needed. I think that any kind of movement to attract fans to buy in would need some serious backing by a number of wealthy individual's prepared to stump a significant part of the capital, and to also lend the credibility needed for the rest of us to have the confidence to also buy shares.
I think the first steps would be to gain support from some trusted figure heads who could attract larger investments. Tayls is a good shout for someone who is both well respected by the fans as well as carrying himself well in a commercial environment. Perhaps someone like Nigel Kennedy could attract both the media attention as well as a few wealthy benefactors who might buy into the idea.
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The problem we have is apathy, we all moan like hell but when it comes down to it we're traditionally poor at unifying and getting things done - look at the recent walk out protests many people just sat looking bewildered.
I like the idea of the supporters having part ownership of the club and a democratically elected member of the board. What has happened over the last five years to our club can never be allowed to happen again and if that means me chipping in 100 quid a year im all for it. If someone has the knowledge, time and motivation to make it happen then go for it.
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In American Football, the Packers are a good example.
The Packers had allot of assistance from the local government and populace, when they needed to rebuild Lambeau Field they had a referendum to ask the town if they would pay an extra tax to fund the rebuild. They voted to have the tax and the stadium was rebuilt, and it has lots of access for the town's folk and has bars etc... inside a wonderful atrium.
The population of Green Bay grows massively on game days with 'tailgates' going on all over the place and the bars are full. Bringing in much needed revenue to local businesses.
When it works it works well, but it needs allot of support from local government and the local population to make it work.
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While the notion is lovely. Realistically the easiest part would be raising the money, it's what happens after that would be the real issue.
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I don't think it would work at a club this size, I think Walsall is about as big as you could go with something like this.
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In American Football, the Packers are a good example.
The Packers had allot of assistance from the local government and populace, when they needed to rebuild Lambeau Field they had a referendum to ask the town if they would pay an extra tax to fund the rebuild. They voted to have the tax and the stadium was rebuilt, and it has lots of access for the town's folk and has bars etc... inside a wonderful atrium.
The population of Green Bay grows massively on game days with 'tailgates' going on all over the place and the bars are full. Bringing in much needed revenue to local businesses.
When it works it works well, but it needs allot of support from local government and the local population to make it work.
The other issue with the Packers is that the NFL is an organisation that actively promotes unity and income sharing to make the product as a whole more successful. The president of the Packers acknowledged as much when he said after they won the Superbowl in the 1990s that their success, indeed the team's continuing existence, was due to the decision to share TV revenue equally in the 1960s. This is far easier to do in a closed shop like the NFL, obviously teams and organisations are in competition with each other but it's not the same as football where we would simply end up being outspent by competitors at home and abroad.
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For anyone that doesn't believe buying back the club is possible, I'd urge non believers to watch the Swansea Documentary 'Jack to a King'. It's about the Swansea trust buying the club from the awful owner (who's name escapes me in the early 2000).
Admittedly they only paid £20k for the club. But it shows it can be done if people pull together.
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I'd be interested to see what getting relegated does to the valuation. We do get the parachute payments which are £64m over 3 years but without Prem TV revenue he can't expect to receive £150m.
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Can I be Chairman?
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For anyone that doesn't believe buying back the club is possible, I'd urge non believers to watch the Swansea Documentary 'Jack to a King'. It's about the Swansea trust buying the club from the awful owner (who's name escapes me in the early 2000).
Admittedly they only paid £20k for the club. But it shows it can be done if people pull together.
They don't own the club - they were one member of a consortium and now own 21% with one director on the board.
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It's an inspired idea, with only one slight flaw.
2.2 million 'likes' doesn't necessarily mean the likee has any time for us at all.
Brian Little's facebook page had (dunno if it still has) a whole host of likes for Man U, Liverpool and all the other vomit clubs bar the Villa. When I asked him about this, he said he was doing a bit of work for Irish TV at the time and needed the updates. He didn't need any updates on the Villa because he knows all about us anyway. Like a boss.
Then you'll have the Beijing Red types and the New Leicester For Life Thai fans who will click on all the PL clubs. We are all just actors in the same show to them. Admittedly not their favourite actors, but they don't see owt wrong with spreading the love.
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I have more faith in our new structured board having a plan in place and appointing a decent manager. Hopefully we'll rebuild from here and we'll get promotion and become a saleable asset again for the right buyer.
I'm sure Randy does care enough to want this as well he just hasn't had the foggiest idea how until appointing Hollis.
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For anyone that doesn't believe buying back the club is possible, I'd urge non believers to watch the Swansea Documentary 'Jack to a King'. It's about the Swansea trust buying the club from the awful owner (who's name escapes me in the early 2000).
Admittedly they only paid £20k for the club. But it shows it can be done if people pull together.
They don't own the club - they were one member of a consortium and now own 21% with one director on the board.
And just like the other examples given it was when they were in Division 4, or lower. Had a massive debt, for that level, and I doubt just the fans have taken that club and debt over. They were only averaging about 5K at the time. And I think they had been bought for a quid once or twice not too long before that and still the debt remained.
So as I said about Exeter and Portsmouth, it's one thing doing it to a small club in Div 4 or non league that's on the brink of going out of business so it is cheap to buy, and run if 100% fan owned, compared to doing it to a club like Villa.
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In American Football, the Packers are a good example.
The Packers had allot of assistance from the local government and populace, when they needed to rebuild Lambeau Field they had a referendum to ask the town if they would pay an extra tax to fund the rebuild. They voted to have the tax and the stadium was rebuilt, and it has lots of access for the town's folk and has bars etc... inside a wonderful atrium.
The population of Green Bay grows massively on game days with 'tailgates' going on all over the place and the bars are full. Bringing in much needed revenue to local businesses.
When it works it works well, but it needs allot of support from local government and the local population to make it work.
i doubt BCC would be interested in any kind of stake or financial input in to the club for two main reasons: namely it's been starved of cash by central govt and hasn't got a pot to piss in even for vital services; secondly supporters of blues and Albion that live within its boundaries would quite rightly take objection to council money being spent on one club. Remember the uproar among villa fans when Blues were whining for a new council funded stadium?
There might be a middle way to introduce extra income from willing fan investors in conjunction with on-going ownership and financial backing from Lerner whilst he secures new ownership. My view this is that this would be the most viable way to boost our finances in the short term, but obviously raises questions Around the degree of 'ownership' the fans who buy in would have in reality for their 500 quid, 1 grand, 5 grand, 10grand or however much they chose to invest.
With randy retaining overall control, there'd be not too much change in the way the club is managed at executive and board level.
It's an interesting concept though and whilst unlikely to happen, thats not to say that it couldn't be made to work in some way, particularly with a big club such as Villa with a huge fan base and relatively benevolent owner.
Maybe Adam should change his approach slightly and canvass Randy's people to gauge his interest in exploring the idea further?
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For anyone that doesn't believe buying back the club is possible, I'd urge non believers to watch the Swansea Documentary 'Jack to a King'. It's about the Swansea trust buying the club from the awful owner (who's name escapes me in the early 2000).
Admittedly they only paid £20k for the club. But it shows it can be done if people pull together.
They don't own the club - they were one member of a consortium and now own 21% with one director on the board.
Good point Dave and PeterWithe. I forgot that point.
The documentary inspired me to see a club taking positive action.
I would like to see the Trust taking a proactive movement in seeking new owners.
I don't know how achievable, but if they could generate further funds by selling shares. Maybe gain investment from local companies it would be interesting to see if we could generate enough money to get Lerner to talk.
I know it sounds unrealistic but surely it's better than doing nothing.
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Surely trying to do something to is better than doing nothing. If a buyer thinks we are only worth say 140,000,000 but randy wants 200,000,000 and the fans raise the other 60,000,000 then yes you can say we are paying over the odds for the club.but surely in your hearts can you honestly say how much the villa is worth to you.
Then the new buyer issues non voting shares to the % of what the fans are putting in and we vote in a person on the board.
Is there honestly much difference to what happened in 1968 when we had the share issue when was it pat Matthews put his money in to rescue the club.
My grandad put what money he could afford to buy as many shares as he could in 68 put 6 in trust for me years later those shares was worth £1000 each and he always said I did my bit for the villa.
Wouldn't it be amazing if we could do it just because know one has done it before don't mean it can't be done.
Then one day some of us can say I did my bit for the villa
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Surely trying to do something to is better than doing nothing. If a buyer thinks we are only worth say 140,000,000 but randy wants 200,000,000 and the fans raise the other 60,000,000 then yes you can say we are paying over the odds for the club.but surely in your hearts can you honestly say how much the villa is worth to you.
Then the new buyer issues non voting shares to the % of what the fans are putting in and we vote in a person on the board.
Is there honestly much difference to what happened in 1968 when we had the share issue when was it pat Matthews put his money in to rescue the club.
My grandad put what money he could afford to buy as many shares as he could in 68 put 6 in trust for me years later those shares was worth £1000 each and he always said I did my bit for the villa.
Wouldn't it be amazing if we could do it just because know one has done it before don't mean it can't be done.
Then one day some of us can say I did my bit for the villa
I'd rather we did something proactive about raising funds.
It would be interesting to see how much could be raised via supporters.
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So let's do something like that just to see what we can raise then and take it from there. I know people on here are saying its a non starter or it will never work but how do you know unless you try.
Imagine 4 guys meeting under a Gas lamp about starting a football team for something to do when the cricket season ends, only needed 2 or 3 of them to say thats a non starter or that will never work.
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Starting from scratch in 1874 to start a team just to have something do isn't really any different to starting a Sunday league team now, which a world apart to raising £100M+ and then running a modern big club.
Even if we as supporters raised a million quid and donated it to the club, that's less than 6 months of Gabby's wages.
At the same time, no one is stopping anyone from trying to do it.
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It's not just a case of raising the £150 million plus to buy the club. Just look at how much our current owner is writing off every year. Where's that sort of money going to come from?
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It's not just a case of raising the £150 million plus to buy the club. Just look at how much our current owner is writing off every year. Where's that sort of money going to come from?
If a supporters group started to raise funds it could also generate publicity. On the back of this you could potentially have companies of different sizes donating money in return for shares. And our supporter base is extensive so who knows how much you could generate.
Take Real Oviedo, they have shareholders all over the world. I personally brought £40 worth.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not for one second saying we could generate £150-£200m. But it's an interesting theory.
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Name me a company who would offer up serious money in return for having no more say than a single supporter. As for our worldwide fanbase, we've never got much more than 40,000 going to the match so getting ten times that number to pay to not attend doesn't seem likely.
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Name me a company who would offer up serious money in return for having no more say than a single supporter. As for our worldwide fanbase, we've never got much more than 40,000 going to the match so getting ten times that number to pay to not attend doesn't seem likely.
I've never been to Real Oviedo. Didn't stop me from buying shares.
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Name me a company who would offer up serious money in return for having no more say than a single supporter. As for our worldwide fanbase, we've never got much more than 40,000 going to the match so getting ten times that number to pay to not attend doesn't seem likely.
I'm not sure the fanbase has anything to do with it. This would be an investment vehicle - thus would attract investors, not fans. And fans would make up a small proportion of the overall funding.
Not advocating it, just recognizing that most investors have very little allegiance per se to the interests of the companies they invest in. Its all about whether a return can be made.
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Yea your right guys
Why bother why try just accept it we got no chance
Probably the same words that are said by our players before every game
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No one is stopping you or anyone else from trying.
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Judging from replies on here it's a non starter isn't it
But wouldn't it of been amazing if we could of done something to bring it to the attention of the media and the footballing world I wouldn't have the time or know how to try and do something like it. Never mind though at Least we can all hold up a bit of paper on 74
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Maybe you'd like people not to give their opinion?
But you seem totally in favour of it, so instead of keeping on complaining about those that think it won't work, why not start it and see if you can prove them, including me, wrong?
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I'm all for people's opinions honestly guys and like I say what a great idea it was, can't wait to throw my paper plane from the Holte
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By the way where the hell is BIGADAMKNIGHT who should be backing us up
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Some of us remember the fantastic rabble-rousing speech by Howard Hodgson at the big VFC meeting in the Leisure Centre. All great and getting standing ovations until he dropped the bombshell:
"All we need is £500 from each and every one of you..."
Could have heard a pin drop if it hadn't been for the sniggering from the back.
Good luck and all that but 2.2million likes on Facebook means the grand total of fuck all unless one of them is a multi-billionaire oil baron.
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Apologies for not being online for the last week or so. 3 massive work projects are now finished so have a bit more headspace. I agree that the idea is crazy and perhaps we will need to wait and see if we bounce straight back up again or drop another division before the valuation became something that was more achievable.
The way other crowd funding things work is that people are investing but they can often just be buying a product before it is manufactured. I need to have a proper look into the financial statements from the club to see how much is generated from various revenue streams. So perhaps we could look to reward investors with discounted season tickets or shirts. Just to make it a little bit more valuable. The other side of it is that people often equate owning to being able to decide. I was an investor in the myfootballclub project a few years ago that bought Ebbsfleet United, which in theory was great but actually the voting on kit designs and commercial factors worked but the day to day football stuff has to be left to the people put in charge by the owners.
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Some of us remember the fantastic rabble-rousing speech by Howard Hodgson at the big VFC meeting in the Leisure Centre. All great and getting standing ovations until he dropped the bombshell:
"All we need is £500 from each and every one of you..."
Could have heard a pin drop if it hadn't been for the sniggering from the back.
All we have to do is pretend our season tickets cost the same as Arsenal for 1 season - approx £1000. We still have our seat and see more football (minutes of football). 20,000 season tickets = £10 million left over to wave at Randy. Where the next 100 and odd million comes from I don't know.