Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Chico Hamilton III on February 24, 2016, 04:03:56 PM
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Missed most of it. It'll be repeated, no doubt
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"Just ask my wife...I'm married to Aston Villa"
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Bicycle kick,
Preemier League,
"he was like a son to me"
etc etc
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'We walked around the rose garden'
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"He was like a son to me."
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Jason on the WM phone-in last night said he had heard a rumour that Doug was going to buy back the club for his son Peter.
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Jason on the WM phone-in last night said he had heard a rumour that Doug was going to buy back the club for his son Peter.
That's just what we need... another son of a self made man.
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Jason on the WM phone-in last night said he had heard a rumour that Doug was going to buy back the club for his son Peter.
I'd heard that rumour too.
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when was it on ? I've thought for months now, I'd love to know what he thinks of state of things
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Whistleblower Elaine Rose believes he should come back, and I quote "He loves the Villa. Never misses a game. BRING BACK SIR DOUG."
I know this because it transpires she's the mother of a lad I used to play football with, and I'm mates on Facebook with him and his cousin.
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Careful, Lee; you're not the only person on here who knows Elaine.
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Careful, Lee; you're not the only person on here who knows Elaine.
Yes, good shout,edited.
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Saw a snippet:
- extra training for those not showing it on the pitch
- Randy to attend a match with him (admits it isn't going to happen)
- too old to take back the reins
He was quite emotional, in his way. "Married to Aston Villa".
A lot of nothing in truth.
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Not disagreeing with Doug's sentiments but it would have been nice for him to have this wisdom when he was chairman in '86.
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Not disagreeing with Doug's sentiments but it would have been nice for him to have this wisdom when he was chairman in '86'83.
Fixed
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Not disagreeing with Doug's sentiments but it would have been nice for him to have this wisdom when he was chairman in '86.
Yep. Hard to have a go at a man in his nineties, but in the piece I saw, there was no mention that he had also managed to get Villa relegated and from a position of even greater strength.
Seemed in decent health and spirits though.
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Doug has had the year we were relegated conveniently lobotomized out of his brain.
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Yep. Hard to have a go at a man in his nineties, but in the piece I saw, there was no mention that he had also managed to get Villa relegated and from a position of even greater strength.
The club also bounced back to the top division under Ellis too. How confident are we of that happening this time around?
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Yep. Hard to have a go at a man in his nineties, but in the piece I saw, there was no mention that he had also managed to get Villa relegated and from a position of even greater strength.
The club also bounced back to the top division under Ellis too. How confident are we of that happening this time around?
I would argue that Graham Taylor had more to do with our return to the top flight than Doug Ellis. I would also argue that Doug didn't have the foresight, vision and ambition to really take the club forward when the opportunities arose after that.
Anyway, all in the past now and it seems slightly uncharitable to be having a go at a man in his nineties.
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Yep. Hard to have a go at a man in his nineties, but in the piece I saw, there was no mention that he had also managed to get Villa relegated and from a position of even greater strength.
The club also bounced back to the top division under Ellis too. How confident are we of that happening this time around?
No idea, but I assume you (we all) felt much as you do now in April/May 1987. It felt every bit as shit back then as it does now.
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Doug has had the year we were relegated conveniently lobotomized out of his brain.
Maybe so, but the fact that we bounced straight back up the next season seems to have been lobotomised out of the brains of many Villa fans as well. He also gave us the longest unbroken spell in the top flight for decades too.
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Yep. Hard to have a go at a man in his nineties, but in the piece I saw, there was no mention that he had also managed to get Villa relegated and from a position of even greater strength.
The club also bounced back to the top division under Ellis too. How confident are we of that happening this time around?
More confident than I was back then when it looked like Dave sodding Bassett would be our manager until SGT was sent gift wrapped to Ellis.
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Yep. Hard to have a go at a man in his nineties, but in the piece I saw, there was no mention that he had also managed to get Villa relegated and from a position of even greater strength.
The club also bounced back to the top division under Ellis too. How confident are we of that happening this time around?
More confident than I was back then when it looked like Dave sodding Bassett would be our manager until SGT was sent gift wrapped to Ellis.
I'm not sure it matters whether Sir Graham was "sent giftwrapped" or not. Ellis made the appointment and the rest is in the history books for all to see.
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It certainly doesn't matter to some. It matters to me though as I have a sneaky feeling things would have been a lot different if SGT hadn't been sent gift wrapped and we were in Division 2 with Dave Bassett as manager.
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Doug has had the year we were relegated conveniently lobotomized out of his brain.
Maybe so, but the fact that we bounced straight back up the next season seems to have been lobotomised out of the brains of many Villa fans as well. He also gave us the longest unbroken spell in the top flight for decades too.
As pointed out elsewhere, from Doug's perspective it was pure dumb luck that Graham Taylor was looking for a bigger club on his way to the England job. If hadn't been for a chance conversation we'd have ended up with 'Arry Basset and probably still be swimming in the Championship.
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Doug has had the year we were relegated conveniently lobotomized out of his brain.
Maybe so, but the fact that we bounced straight back up the next season seems to have been lobotomised out of the brains of many Villa fans as well. He also gave us the longest unbroken spell in the top flight for decades too.
How much of that was Doug and how much was the bloke he luckily hired? And even after he hired him he was sticking his nose in it. And it's not like Doug recognizing his part in the relegation of the club lavished Sir Graham with a lot of money to get us back up.
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I think the thing about Doug was he obviously in his eternal arrogance, thought he could maintain the success we had on a lower budget. The fall was pretty quick and disastrous. We'd had a couple of mid-table finishes and a bottom half, only to then finish bottom the following year. In fairness he did then turn things around quite quickly (well, okay, Taylor was predominantly responsible for that).
What I find particularly unforgivable about Randy is the fact we've been playing silly fuckers on the tightrope for 5 straight years. We've been lucky so far but our luck ran out spectacularly this season, and we've been left with the most repugnantly unlikeable and lacklustre squad we've ever had. It's not a simple case of just having a bunch of no hopers either, the worst part has been the lack of effort in too many games. It just doesn't seem to matter to 90% of our squad.
Whilst I'm no Ellis fan by any stretch, at least he was at the games to take the pelters. He does actually have a genuine affection for the club. He surely must do to actually come and sit through this tripe when he's long retired. Randy's total apathy is shocking. He's had ample time to realise where we're heading and do something about it, but he's perpetually ignored it.
As shite as we were in 87 when we went down, we won 8 games. We won't get anywhere near that this time. We've taken shiteness to whole new levels.
Have we ever been as bad over such a long period before? We did spend 8 years out of the top flight once, and we could easily break that record. Breaking records is our speciality at the moment. Unfortunately they're the wrong kind.
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It certainly doesn't matter to some. It matters to me though as I have a sneaky feeling things would have been a lot different if SGT hadn't been sent gift wrapped and we were in Division 2 with Dave Bassett as manager.
Yeah I remember the link with Dave Bassett and what a horrifying thought that was. Thank god we employed Taylor. And look if you're gonna blame Ellis for relegating us in '87 you can't just not give him credit for our promotion a year later.
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Yep. Hard to have a go at a man in his nineties, but in the piece I saw, there was no mention that he had also managed to get Villa relegated and from a position of even greater strength.
The club also bounced back to the top division under Ellis too. How confident are we of that happening this time around?
More confident than I was back then when it looked like Dave sodding Bassett would be our manager until SGT was sent gift wrapped to Ellis.
I'm not sure it matters whether Sir Graham was "sent giftwrapped" or not. Ellis made the appointment and the rest is in the history books for all to see.
So by the same token if we go down, manage to retain Garde and we come straight back up, will the same be said about the last 5 Lerner years? Because it rivals anything Doug did 1983-1987. Worse I would say.
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Doug has had the year we were relegated conveniently lobotomized out of his brain.
Maybe so, but the fact that we bounced straight back up the next season seems to have been lobotomised out of the brains of many Villa fans as well. He also gave us the longest unbroken spell in the top flight for decades too.
How much of that was Doug and how much was the bloke he luckily hired? And even after he hired him he was sticking his nose in it. And it's not like Doug recognizing his part in the relegation of the club lavished Sir Graham with a lot of money to get us back up.
Wether you like it or not, Ellis employed Taylor and the rest is history.
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Have we ever been as bad over such a long period before? We did spend 8 years out of the top flight once, and we could easily break that record. Breaking records is our speciality at the moment. Unfortunately they're the wrong kind.
We went 14 seasons where our highest finish was 15th. From 1950-1976 we finished in the top 10 4 times.
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Yep. Hard to have a go at a man in his nineties, but in the piece I saw, there was no mention that he had also managed to get Villa relegated and from a position of even greater strength.
The club also bounced back to the top division under Ellis too. How confident are we of that happening this time around?
More confident than I was back then when it looked like Dave sodding Bassett would be our manager until SGT was sent gift wrapped to Ellis.
I'm not sure it matters whether Sir Graham was "sent giftwrapped" or not. Ellis made the appointment and the rest is in the history books for all to see.
So by the same token if we go down, manage to retain Garde and we come straight back up, will the same be said about the last 5 Lerner years? Because it rivals anything Doug did 1983-1987. Worse I would say.
I've heard older Villa fans say what's happening to the club now is reminiscent of Villa's decline in the '60s. I wasn't around then but I was certainly around in the '80s and I can assure you that Villa under Lerner and these last 6 years of misery is by far the lowest I've ever felt as a fan of this club. Our relegation in '87 was bad enough, but I don't remember us being humiliated left right and centre like we have been since O'Neill walked. We're a bloody laughing stock.
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Bizarrely to many i'm sure, i'd give Ellis more credit for hiring Venglos than I would for hiring Taylor as it was a brave move ahead of it's time and hindsight has shown us it was actually smart thinking.
Ellis didn't go after Taylor, Taylor basically chose us as his next job. I doubt there's many clubs would have turned down SGT if he'd made it obvious they were the club for him.
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I think the thing about Doug was he obviously in his eternal arrogance, thought he could maintain the success we had on a lower budget. The fall was pretty quick and disastrous. We'd had a couple of mid-table finishes and a bottom half, only to then finish bottom the following year. In fairness he did then turn things around quite quickly (well, okay, Taylor was predominantly responsible for that).
What I find particularly unforgivable about Randy is the fact we've been playing silly fuckers on the tightrope for 5 straight years. We've been lucky so far but our luck ran out spectacularly this season, and we've been left with the most repugnantly unlikeable and lacklustre squad we've ever had. It's not a simple case of just having a bunch of no hopers either, the worst part has been the lack of effort in too many games. It just doesn't seem to matter to 90% of our squad.
Whilst I'm no Ellis fan by any stretch, at least he was at the games to take the pelters. He does actually have a genuine affection for the club. He surely must do to actually come and sit through this tripe when he's long retired. Randy's total apathy is shocking. He's had ample time to realise where we're heading and do something about it, but he's perpetually ignored it.
As shite as we were in 87 when we went down, we won 8 games. We won't get anywhere near that this time. We've taken shiteness to whole new levels.
Have we ever been as bad over such a long period before? We did spend 8 years out of the top flight once, and we could easily break that record. Breaking records is our speciality at the moment. Unfortunately they're the wrong kind.
Spot on. And I doubt if the club has ever been as humiliated or smashed as many shitty records as we have since 2010 in our entire history. It's something I'll never forgive our owner for.
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Doug has had the year we were relegated conveniently lobotomized out of his brain.
Maybe so, but the fact that we bounced straight back up the next season seems to have been lobotomised out of the brains of many Villa fans as well. He also gave us the longest unbroken spell in the top flight for decades too.
How much of that was Doug and how much was the bloke he luckily hired? And even after he hired him he was sticking his nose in it. And it's not like Doug recognizing his part in the relegation of the club lavished Sir Graham with a lot of money to get us back up.
Wether you like it or not, Ellis employed Taylor and the rest is history.
Well we'll have to credit him for recognising Taylor as a better bet than Bassett, but that's as much credit as he does get. It's not like he scoured he length and breadth of the country and turn up Taylor.
It was more like going out Christmas shopping at 3pm on Christmas Eve needing to get a present for your partner. You've just about settled on the least shitty bit of tat you've seen in the last 2 hours when suddenly your fairy godmother magics the mother of all presents right into your hand.
Go home with the goods? Yes.
Peace on earth and goodwill to all men? Absolutely.
Am I genius for pulling it off? You must be bleedin' joking.
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Doug has had the year we were relegated conveniently lobotomized out of his brain.
Maybe so, but the fact that we bounced straight back up the next season seems to have been lobotomised out of the brains of many Villa fans as well. He also gave us the longest unbroken spell in the top flight for decades too.
How much of that was Doug and how much was the bloke he luckily hired? And even after he hired him he was sticking his nose in it. And it's not like Doug recognizing his part in the relegation of the club lavished Sir Graham with a lot of money to get us back up.
Wether you like it or not, Ellis employed Taylor and the rest is history.
You could say the same when he sacked Tony Barton.
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Yep. Hard to have a go at a man in his nineties, but in the piece I saw, there was no mention that he had also managed to get Villa relegated and from a position of even greater strength.
The club also bounced back to the top division under Ellis too. How confident are we of that happening this time around?
More confident than I was back then when it looked like Dave sodding Bassett would be our manager until SGT was sent gift wrapped to Ellis.
I'm not sure it matters whether Sir Graham was "sent giftwrapped" or not. Ellis made the appointment and the rest is in the history books for all to see.
So by the same token if we go down, manage to retain Garde and we come straight back up, will the same be said about the last 5 Lerner years? Because it rivals anything Doug did 1983-1987. Worse I would say.
I've heard older Villa fans say what's happening to the club now is reminiscent of Villa's decline in the '60s. I wasn't around then but I was certainly around in the '80s and I can assure you that Villa under Lerner and these last 6 years of misery is by far the lowest I've ever felt as a fan of this club. Our relegation in '87 was bad enough, but I don't remember us being humiliated left right and centre like we have been since O'Neill walked. We're a bloody laughing stock.
Had the Internet existed in 1983-87 you'd have felt exactly the same way as you have the past five years. The exposure, the media and the overall attention football gets at the top level today far exceeds what it was in the 80's. It all contributes to how you feel because it's everywhere and there's literally no getting away from it.
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Bizarrely to many i'm sure, i'd give Ellis more credit for hiring Venglos than I would for hiring Taylor as it was a brave move ahead of it's time and hindsight has shown us it was actually smart thinking.
Ellis didn't go after Taylor, Taylor basically chose us as his next job. I doubt there's many clubs would have turned down SGT if he'd made it obvious they were the club for him.
I'd agree with that bit about Venglos. Brave, forward thinking. Not often you'll put those three words nexr to Doug Ellis in the same sentence.
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Yep. Hard to have a go at a man in his nineties, but in the piece I saw, there was no mention that he had also managed to get Villa relegated and from a position of even greater strength.
The club also bounced back to the top division under Ellis too. How confident are we of that happening this time around?
More confident than I was back then when it looked like Dave sodding Bassett would be our manager until SGT was sent gift wrapped to Ellis.
I'm not sure it matters whether Sir Graham was "sent giftwrapped" or not. Ellis made the appointment and the rest is in the history books for all to see.
So by the same token if we go down, manage to retain Garde and we come straight back up, will the same be said about the last 5 Lerner years? Because it rivals anything Doug did 1983-1987. Worse I would say.
I've heard older Villa fans say what's happening to the club now is reminiscent of Villa's decline in the '60s. I wasn't around then but I was certainly around in the '80s and I can assure you that Villa under Lerner and these last 6 years of misery is by far the lowest I've ever felt as a fan of this club. Our relegation in '87 was bad enough, but I don't remember us being humiliated left right and centre like we have been since O'Neill walked. We're a bloody laughing stock.
Had the Internet existed in 1983-87 you'd have felt exactly the same way as you have the past five years. The exposure, the media and the overall attention football gets at the top level today far exceeds what it was in the 80's. It all contributes to how you feel because it's everywhere and there's literally no getting away from it.
No. It feels worse now because it is worse. No other reason, and it's nothing to do with the Internet.
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I reckon it also feels worse because we're older. Most of those that say they had great fun in Div 3 were young at the time. Same with Div 2 under SGT. My dad and his Villa friends etc of a similar age fucking hated us being in division 2.
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I'd like to know how going from the Champions of Europe to relegation in 5 years is worse than going from finishing 6th to relegation in the same length of time?
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Well, neither record is redolent of success.
Just sayin.
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I'd like to know how going from the Champions of Europe to relegation in 5 years is worse than going from finishing 6th to relegation in the same length of time?
Again, we've had nearly 6 seasons of decline and humiliations where we seem to have smashed every shitty record the club has ever had the misfortune to set and club has become a bona fide laughing stock, but if you think this isn't as bad as our relegation in '87 then good luck to you, but you'd be wrong, in my opinion of course.
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I'd like to know how going from the Champions of Europe to relegation in 5 years is worse than going from finishing 6th to relegation in the same length of time?
Again, we've had nearly 6 seasons of decline and humiliations where we seem to have smashed every shitty record the club has ever had the misfortune to set and club has become a bona fide laughing stock, but if you think this isn't as bad as our relegation in '87 then good luck to you, but you'd be wrong, in my opinion of course.
That's my point. You talk about decline but we declined from 6th to whatever will be this season compared to the pinnacle of European football to relegation in essentially the same length of time. You can't compare the decline now to back then. The decline now is not remotely as steep. But it's your opinion. I don't agree.
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Both are utterly shite and take a high level of incompetence but '87 was worse. To be relegated so soon after 80-82 was a bigger disgrace than this one. With so little TV money the money we were getting for good gates, cup runs etc, especially compared to the rest of the country, should have meant we were well away from that. Worth remembering our 26K average in 1983 was the 5 highest in the country and in those days people through the turnstiles really mattered as clubs needed to maintain a certain average attendance or they were in the crapper.
Now, gates etc don't matter as much, so we don't have much of an advantage money wise over a club that average 10K less than us. So it's more of a level playing field, so make some of the wank decisions we have there's not so much wiggle room. As an example of what I mean, there is pretty much zero chance a club like Stoke would have had a prayer of signing a player like Bojan back in the 80s. Now just about any PL club can.
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It certainly doesn't matter to some. It matters to me though as I have a sneaky feeling things would have been a lot different if SGT hadn't been sent gift wrapped and we were in Division 2 with Dave Bassett as manager.
Indeed, nor try to brush Randy Lerner's failings of the past six years under the carpet.
If a government turns out to be a disaster you seldom hear people say 'oh dear, they truly have been let down by that awful junior minister for rural affairs again, you can't blame the PM for this government's mistakes'.
Yeah I remember the link with Dave Bassett and what a horrifying thought that was. Thank god we employed Taylor. And look if you're gonna blame Ellis for relegating us in '87 you can't just not give him credit for our promotion a year later.
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There are plenty of bad things to say about Ellis I'm sure, but to not credit him with hiring Sir Graham who got us promoted at the first attempt is pretty poor form (if because Ellis took advice and the timing was considered right by the new manager himself), in my opinion. It happened, the history books say it happened.
We're only now about to lose that top flight status. After a five year death by a thousand cuts, a prolonged agony for those attending on a regular basis. In 1986-87 we won seven home games. Some very small consolation for getting relegated. I think we've managed that feat once (and without checking I may be being over generous) in the last five seasons!
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PWS you raise two salient points that I find oddly reassuring because for me they put the the current plight of the club in clearer context. You mention the bleak and barren years from 1950 - 76. Those years were the meat of my life as a Villa fan. Bad as they were and they were bad, the flame in the bedrock fans burned as strong and bright as it always has and always will.
Your second point about the years in Div 3 in retrospect being recalled as fun but actually being far from it is also true. Being in Div 2 and Div 3 was unspeakably horrible as many of us are about to experience again. The two things that filled us fans with energy and enthusiasm was that we were young, full of the piss and vinegar of youth and that we had turned the corner and were smashing our way out of the place we had fallen into. Next autumn will be horrible, brace yourselves for it. Christmas will be better.
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Next autumn will be horrible, brace yourselves for it. Christmas will be better.
I read that as a horror scope 😂
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almost surreal now to think that Big Ron's second place finish remains (with KK) the highest ever finish by an English manager in the PL. As ever, he and Deadly fell out shortly afterwards
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almost surreal now to think that Big Ron's second place finish remains (with KK) the highest ever finish by an English manager in the PL. As ever, he and Deadly fell out shortly afterwards
BFR and 'he who walks on water' had both lost their way though hadn't they?
I don't think Doug pulled the trigger too early on either occasion.
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almost surreal now to think that Big Ron's second place finish remains (with KK) the highest ever finish by an English manager in the PL. As ever, he and Deadly fell out shortly afterwards
BFR and 'he who walks on water' had both lost their way though hadn't they?
I don't think Doug pulled the trigger too early on either occasion.
Indeed. The writing was on the wall for Ron, you could see he'd lost it, sadly. The signing of his mate John Fashanu was the beginning of the end.
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PWS you raise two salient points that I find oddly reassuring because for me they put the the current plight of the club in clearer context. You mention the bleak and barren years from 1950 - 76. Those years were the meat of my life as a Villa fan. Bad as they were and they were bad, the flame in the bedrock fans burned as strong and bright as it always has and always will.
Your second point about the years in Div 3 in retrospect being recalled as fun but actually being far from it is also true. Being in Div 2 and Div 3 was unspeakably horrible as many of us are about to experience again. The two things that filled us fans with energy and enthusiasm was that we were young, full of the piss and vinegar of youth and that we had turned the corner and were smashing our way out of the place we had fallen into. Next autumn will be horrible, brace yourselves for it. Christmas will be better.
Think I'm a tad younger than you Brian but those were my "formative" years too...the thing I remember most from those bad years was the undying loyalty and intensity of the Villa support...we never thought for one minute that we would not be back, and once we started the climb out of Div 3 there was almost no stopping us!
In our current plight I can see the support being just as strong; I only hope that those managing the club make the decision to come along with us.
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Yep. Hard to have a go at a man in his nineties, but in the piece I saw, there was no mention that he had also managed to get Villa relegated and from a position of even greater strength.
The club also bounced back to the top division under Ellis too. How confident are we of that happening this time around?
And finished 2nd twice within a couple of years - it especially still gripes me about it all falling apart on that Easter Saturday in 1993 (the birth of Fergie Time).
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Bizarrely to many i'm sure, i'd give Ellis more credit for hiring Venglos than I would for hiring Taylor as it was a brave move ahead of it's time and hindsight has shown us it was actually smart thinking.
Ellis didn't go after Taylor, Taylor basically chose us as his next job. I doubt there's many clubs would have turned down SGT if he'd made it obvious they were the club for him.
I'd agree with that bit about Venglos. Brave, forward thinking. Not often you'll put those three words nexr to Doug Ellis in the same sentence.
Can't agree with this about Venglos, he was completely the wrong man for us at that time, (our collapse at the end of 89/90 was the clue) Doug should have been aware of that.
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I'd like to know how going from the Champions of Europe to relegation in 5 years is worse than going from finishing 6th to relegation in the same length of time?
Surely it's because we've flirted with relegation ever since 2011 ? It's got worse year after year and after losing the spine of the team in the summer and buying a load of players with no premier league experience to replace them, - coupled with employing totally unsuitable manager after unsuitable manager it's really no surprise we're where we are.
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The BFR's Claret & Blue Army chant was brilliant though.
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Sometimes you just don't have to look at who posted you can tell by the content, particularly when it is a shot at Lerner who must be the devil reincarnate if Ellis is preferred. Remember this is the guy that made millions not only out of AVFC by being the first paid director but the fans too, and is responsible for wanton vandalism in the destruction of the Trinity stand.
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Sometimes you just don't have to look at who posted you can tell by the content, particularly when it is a shot at Lerner who must be the devil reincarnate if Ellis is preferred. Remember this is the guy that made millions not only out of AVFC by being the first paid director but the fans too, and is responsible for wanton vandalism in the destruction of the Trinity stand.
I've no problem with people critisising Ellis, but at least do it where it is warranted. And also offer balance by acknowledging where hes's done the right thing.
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How is that any different to those that defend Ellis and rarely, if ever, criticise him?
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How is that any different to those that defend Ellis and rarely, if ever, criticise him?
I never said it was any different.
There seems to be a small number of people here who have been trying to dismiss Ellis' role in Villa getting promoted back to the old Division One. His role was he employed Graham Taylor, who then did the rest. But even that seems too much for some, who say things like "it was more luck than judgement", "Taylor chose Villa, not the other way round" or even "Ellis only employed Taylor because so-and-so told him that Taylor might be/was available." Really? Take advice from someone? How dare he!
If Lerner takes the advice that leads to him making the right actions to returning the club to the PL then he'll deserve the credit too.
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So it's the same thing but only one side of it bothers you?
There's an even smaller number of people who have been trying to dismiss that if it had been left to Ellis we'd almost certainly have had Dave Bassett as manager. His role was to find the find next Villa manager, that's who he found until SGT was delivered to him. If you want praise for that decision, well at least he could see the same as everyone else on the planet that SGT was a better choice than Dave Bassett.
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So it's the same thing but only one side of it bothers you?
Did I say that?
There's an even smaller number of people who have been trying to dismiss that if it had been left to Ellis we'd almost certainly have had Dave Bassett as manager. His role was to find the find next Villa manager, that's who he found until SGT was delivered to him. If you want praise for that decision, well at least he could see the same as everyone else on the planet that SGT was a better choice than Dave Bassett.
So you agree then that Ellis deserves credit, whether Taylor's appointment was due to advice from someone else or not. Ultimately, he acted. He could have ignored the advice he was given.
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Well you only ever criticise those that in your eyes give him no praise, never those that appear on threads to only defend and praise him and never criticise. Seems pretty one sided to me.
Maybe remember that I did actually praise for him Venglos a few pages ago. I don't give him praise for SGT as imo he doesn't deserve it as he didn't actively try and sign him as manager, to me that makes a difference. If he'd gone after SGT and signed him then i'd praise him for it. I'll praise or criticise when I think either one is deserved.
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Well you only ever criticise those that in your eyes give him no praise, never those that appear on threads to only defend and praise him and never criticise. Seems pretty one sided to me.
You'll have to point those out to me because I'm not sure I've ever seen such posts.
Balance is the word.
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Well you've posted on this thread 7 or 8 times without criticising him so ner ner :P
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Just going off on a slight tangent, but it is only in retrospect (and maybe for five of the last seven months he was here) that I appreciate how remarkable SGT's first tenure was in terms of the transformation in the club. However, my recollection of the time is that I enjoyed the first season away trips but many of the home games were dire, the second season was an okay-ish start followed by a prolonged dire period that almost ended in relegation and a final season where his job was under threat by the early autumn. The fact that there were still players at Villa Park in those years that had played on a certain May evening in 1982 perhaps demonstrates that fans' expectations were coloured more by that recent success than the subsequent relegation. Against that background of relative mediocrity, if they'd been for a walk around the rose garden after the Derby County game, the fact that Doug hadn't actively pursued SGT would now be used by some as a case to argue that he'd been negligent in his recruitment procedures!
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Without wanting to defend Doug, while SGT was clearly a far better option, would Dave Bassett have been so terrible ? Okay the football might have been a bit agricultural but he'd probably have got the job done - he had a pretty good record at Wimbledon and later Sheffield United and even Forest to an extent.
I'm just saying he was a fairly well regarded young manager at the time. We've seen far worse appointments before and since.
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Without wanting to defend Doug, while SGT was clearly a far better option, would Dave Bassett have been so terrible ? Okay the football might have been a bit agricultural but he'd probably have got the job done - he had a pretty good record at Wimbledon and later Sheffield United and even Forest to an extent.
I'm just saying he was a fairly well regarded young manager at the time. We've seen far worse appointments before and since.
A very good point.
We turned our noses up at the thought of Bassett then, in the same we we do about Allerdyce, Pullis and Pearson now.
(In the case of Pullis, it's totally justified)
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We'll never know for sure but in a bit of of a twist of fate, after SGT joined us Bassett took over Watford. And promptly relegated them. He was sacked during that first season went to Sheff Utd and relegated them as well. While he did okay at Sheff Utd for a few years he did relegate them twice. He relegated Forest twice as well.
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His first relegation with both Sheffield United and Forest was pretty much nailed on when he arrived.
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Sheff Utd were outside the drop zone by a few points when he took over. I can't find the exact date in March he took over Forest but they were no worse off than we were when Sherwood arrived.
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Without wanting to defend Doug, while SGT was clearly a far better option, would Dave Bassett have been so terrible ? Okay the football might have been a bit agricultural but he'd probably have got the job done - he had a pretty good record at Wimbledon and later Sheffield United and even Forest to an extent.
I'm just saying he was a fairly well regarded young manager at the time. We've seen far worse appointments before and since.
It's easy to forget that Taylor was an exponent of the long ball game as well. "Long passes", as he called them. But that's how football was played in this country at the time.
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I can't see Dave Bassett unearthing Yorke, Platt and McGrath.
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I can't see Dave Bassett unearthing Yorke, Platt and McGrath.
Unearthing McGrath?
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I can't see Dave Bassett unearthing Yorke, Platt and McGrath.
Unearthing McGrath?
He wasn't playing for us and there wasn't exactly much talk of him being the best defender in Europe.
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I can't see Dave Bassett unearthing Yorke, Platt and McGrath.
Unearthing McGrath?
He wasn't playing for us and there wasn't exactly much talk of him being the best defender in Europe.
I was being pedantic Dave but it's hardly the same thing. He wasn't unearthed.
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(http://i3.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/article11099398.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/JS85872189.jpg)
A picture of Doug sat next to an erm.. picture of Doug. Has anything ever been so apt?
Anyway, the story is about Garde following 'ole Doug to his car and apparently Doug for the first time in his life told Remi he couldn't interfere...apparently
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(http://i3.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/article11099398.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/JS85872189.jpg)
A picture of Doug sat next to an erm.. picture of Doug. Has anything ever been so apt?
Anyway, the story is about Garde following 'ole Doug to his car and apparently Doug for the first time in his life told Remi he couldn't interfere...apparently
looks like ian paisley in the photo
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He never, never, never put a penny of his money into the club.
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I can't see Dave Bassett unearthing Yorke, Platt and McGrath.
Unearthing McGrath?
He wasn't playing for us and there wasn't exactly much talk of him being the best defender in Europe.
true. But to say Taylor unearthed McGrath is certainly stretching things. He had a chat to fergie, who vouched for the big man and convinced Taylor he could still do a good job.
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How is that any different to those that defend Ellis and rarely, if ever, criticise him?
I never said it was any different.
There seems to be a small number of people here who have been trying to dismiss Ellis' role in Villa getting promoted back to the old Division One. His role was he employed Graham Taylor, who then did the rest. But even that seems too much for some, who say things like "it was more luck than judgement", "Taylor chose Villa, not the other way round" or even "Ellis only employed Taylor because so-and-so told him that Taylor might be/was available." Really? Take advice from someone? How dare he!
If Lerner takes the advice that leads to him making the right actions to returning the club to the PL then he'll deserve the credit too.
congratulations Chris, on your 11001st post. I'll probably be doug's age by the time I get there.