Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Ivo Stas on December 31, 2015, 02:31:35 PM
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I was wondering how we ended up with such a poor squad, so I've dug back into all the post-Martin-O'Neill signings and (in my opinion) the players bought this summer (2015) are not to blame. Instead, it was the two summers of 2013 and 2014 that have killed us. 2011 is also not blameless. In fact only in summer 2012 can it be said that we signed (fairly) well.
Here is my analysis. I've ignored players released or sold, I'm only interested in how we added to the squad. Bemoaning the release of Jordan Graham, etc can wait for another day.
Season 11/12
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This was an expensive flops window. Given was given too long a contract for his age. N'Zogbia has been a financial disaster too. Hutton is the only one still playing and not very well.
Shay Given £3,500,000
Charles N'Zogbia £9,500,000
Alan Hutton £4,000,000
Enda Stevens £250,000
Season 12/13
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This was the transfer window that bought us a couple more seasons (of struggle) in the Premier League. Benteke was the stand out success, Vlaar played his part too (when fit). Lowton, Westwood, Guzan and Sylla (who turned up in January) had okay seasons. There were no expensive flops.
Karim El Ahmadi £2,500,000
Matthew Lowton £3,000,000
Brad Guzan Unattached
Ron Vlaar £3,200,000
Joseph Bennett £2,500,000
Jordan Bowery £500,000
Ashley Westwood £2,000,000
Christian Benteke £10,000,000
Brett Holman Free
Yacouba Sylla £2,000,000
Season 13/14
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This was the first of two transfer windows that destroyed our squad. All foreign signings (except Steer) which looked like an attempt to throw mud at a wall and see if some stuck. None turned out to be the next Benteke and, although all were fairly cheap, none have really justified their cost (or even recouped their fee). We'd have done better to pool the money onto one top defender or midfielder.
Antonio Luna Rodriguez £2,000,000
Nicklas Helenius Jensen £2,000,000
Aleksandar Tonev £2,500,000
Leandro Bacuna £3,000,000
Jores Okore £4,000,000
Libor Kozák £5,000,000
Jed Steer Free
Season 14/15
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This transfer window drove the nails into our relegation coffin. If the previous year was about gambling on cheap foreign signings, this was the 'pick up knackered old pros that no-one else would touch for free' window. Actually Senderos looked good for about four games before succumbing to the injuries that his record suggested were on the cards. Best thing that can be said for Joe Cole is that he didn't actually hurt the team by playing in it, unlike Richardson. Cissokho and Sanchez are both unable to pass, so fitted in well to Lamberts new possession-based style (that's irony). Gil turned up in January just to remind us how little talent the rest had and then, in true Villa style, was banished to the reserves.
Philippe Senderos Free
Joe Cole Free
Tom Leggett Free
Isaac Nehemie Free
Kieran Richardson Free
Aly Cissokho £2,000,000
Carlos Sanchez £4,700,000
Carles Gil £3,200,000
Season 15/16
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This window, far too late, I think we signed finally signed some good players (albeit ones for the future we may not have). Richards is a good player (if not necessarily at centre back). I also like Amavi, Ayew and Adama as signings. Veretout also looks like he could be 'Villa standard'. Gestede and Gueye have been expensive flops, although Gueye may still adjust. Gestede belongs in a Sam Allardyce team.
Micah Richards Free
Scott Sinclair £2,500,000
Mark Bunn Unattached
Idrissa Gueye £9,000,000
Jordan Amavi £9,000,000
Jordan Ayew £8,500,000
José Ángel Crespo £500,000
Rudy Gestede £7,000,000
Jordan Veretout £7,000,000
Adama Traoré £7,000,000
Joleon Lescott £2,000,000
Matija Sarkic Undisclosed
So, in summary, I don't blame the new 'transfer committee of 2015' for our poor squad. I think most fans would agree that our current best players were all signed this season (Ayew and Amavi especially). The real damage was done in 2013 and 2014 with some earlier financial damage done in 2011.
Who wants to pick apart my theory..?
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For the complete picture you need to add in wages.
2011-12 was the beginning of the end. 3 expensive flops.
2012-13 was fine given the circumstances. Vlaar, Bennett, Benteke, Guzan and Westwood were improvements
2013-14 we needed all them to be hits. Most weren't.
2014-15 Utter fucking dire collection all told
2015-16 Early signs are very poor value for money.
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I was thinking about this too and it's hard to disagree that the damage to our squad has been caused over 3-4 years, not by signing a few ligue 1 players this year as the ignorant media would have it. Between them McLeish and Lambert largely signed a bunch of wasters, crocks, has-beens and never-will-bes. Obvious exceptions were Benteke and Vlaar, plus Kozak and Okore who both looked the part at times but have both been unlucky with injury. Add to this a whole heap of mediocrity being produced by our academy and lo you have a relegation squad. Other teams have managed to pick up or develop very decent players for relative peanuts in that time. Woeful mismanagement at every level and it's little surprise the big R is finally catching up with us.
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It just sheer incompetence on an epic scale that teams recently promoted have a stronger team than us.The amount of money wasted, something like quater on a billion and literally fuck all to show for it over almost 10 years of Lerner.
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Good post indeed, enjoying reading your contributions lately.
£17m on Given, Hutton and N'Zogbia. Sweet Jesus and the orphans.
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And that just on the fees, probably the same again on their wages in the meantime.
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The real 'damage' was done in the late O'Neil summers. Over financial commitment on average players and the freezing out of the ridiculously salaried bomb squad ahead of MON's bitter pre planned abdication resulted in Learners 're-bound' appointments and about turn in commitment.
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Yep I agree that some of MONs signings were pretty well over priced and the club lost a lot of money but these clowns never employed a football man in between him and the board they even got rid of Steve Stride because they new it all and didn't want any interference the idiots who run our club deserve all the bloody stick there going to get ! Twats
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Agree with pretty much all of the above, but I don't think you can ignore outgoings either. Over the period in question and perhaps further, we have lost pretty much all the quality players we had and failed to replace them with players anywhere near their standard.
Goalkeeper - Friedel - no one near as good since
Full backs - Luke Young and Bouma - pretty much a disaster area since
Centre backs - Laursen and Mellberg - Dunne, Collins and Vlaar had moments but all patchy
Central Midfield - Milner, Barry, Petrov - only Delph comes anywhere near
Wide areas - Young and Downing - see Friedel comments (though Ayew is showing promise)
Strikers - Carew - Benteke and Bent for a season and a half aside, nothing much else
So there we have it, a continual exodus of quality players with a failure to replace them. I think last summer is the one that finally did for us, with Benteke and Delph going and to a lesser extent Vlaar and Cleverley.
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There isn't one single reason why we're crashing into the Championship this year, it has definitely been a four or five year descent, and I absolutely agree, the damage has been done over that time.
I've mentioned this before, but three years or so ago, when we were signing crud like Bennett, Westwood, Bacuna, Luna, all that shite, a journalist (Matt Law, who is a Villa fan) pointed out that the main cause of our sudden decline was that we went from signing 50k a week players to signing 10k a week ones without stopping off at 30k.
I always thought that was a very good point.
Not saying there's a guarantee that 50k a week gets you great players - look at N'Zogbia, for example - but 10k a week players, unless you unearth a diamond, are always going to struggle when dropped - in numbers - into the PL every week.
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Totally agree but surely anybody at our club with any football brain would realise it was always going to end with us going down the plug hole keep signing second rate players most of them have never looked like premiership players
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Totally agree but surely anybody at our club with any football brain would realise it was always going to end with us going down the plug hole keep signing second rate players most of them have never looked like premiership players
Anyone with half a brain realised we couldn't spend the way we were spending the last two seasons of MON's reign but people were told not to worry about the finances, they knew what they were doing. They didn't then and they don't now.
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Totally agree but surely anybody at our club with any football brain would realise it was always going to end with us going down the plug hole keep signing second rate players most of them have never looked like premiership players
Therein lies the problem.
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It was Lambert's first transfer window that did it for me. Benteke turned out to be decent, but I shuddered at the "young and hungry" lie, and when I clapped eyes on the likes of Bennett, Lowton, Westwood etc at Forest in a pre season friendly and watched them get the run around from a Championship team I knew we were in trouble.
That bunch of lower league rubbish should never have worn the claret and blue. Boy have we signed some absolute crap over the last 5 or so years. It's no surprise we are where we are now.
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The real 'damage' was done in the late O'Neil summers. Over financial commitment on average players and the freezing out of the ridiculously salaried bomb squad ahead of MON's bitter pre planned abdication resulted in Learners 're-bound' appointments and about turn in commitment.
the real damage was done before that , when we signed sasa curcic ,, balaban and hadji
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And yet go back to summer 2013 and there were posts commending our transfer business and comparisons being made with Lamberk and Klopp and (even more laughably) Lamberk and Saunders.
My concern at the time was that rather than young and hungry really meant young a cheap. On the plus side, most of the dross signed during that era won't cripple the club financially (it killed us a competitive force, mind).
The Houllier and McLeish deals in particular make the case for a transfer committee a strong one.
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Fill your team with championship grade players and eventually you will end up there.
The money wasted by MON on dross like Heskey,Beye, Sidwell etc was the catalyst for Lerner to start pulling up the financial drawbridge. The biggest mistake was Lerner handing so much control to MON. Everything since has been ever decreasing circles to this point
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Good post indeed, enjoying reading your contributions lately.
£17m on Given, Hutton and N'Zogbia. Sweet Jesus and the orphans.
And add £30m in wages for proper Premiership players
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One of our problems over the last few seasons is that the squad the managers have been picking from has only been around 20 of the 25 players and that we have had constant injuries to those 20, which has resulted in players being played out of position.
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One of our problems over the last few seasons is that the squad the managers have been picking from has only been around 20 of the 25 players and that we have had constant injuries to those 20, which has resulted in players being played out of position.
every club has injuries
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One of our problems over the last few seasons is that the squad the managers have been picking from has only been around 20 of the 25 players and that we have had constant injuries to those 20, which has resulted in players being played out of position.
every club has injuries
Yes and our squad looked as though it was set up on the basis of we wouldn't get any.
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One of our problems over the last few seasons is that the squad the managers have been picking from has only been around 20 of the 25 players and that we have had constant injuries to those 20, which has resulted in players being played out of position.
every club has injuries
Yes and our squad looked as though it was set up on the basis of we wouldn't get any.
yeah we should have had a squad of 30 then when the other clubs were only allowed 25 but they will be ok as they have crystal balls
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I keep seeing articles (like this one: http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10118235/aston-villa-getting-what-they-deserve-says-matt-law) blaming our woes on our 'transfer committee'. For instance:
Hendrik Almstadt went in as sporting director, but he's never been a sporting director. Paddy Reilly gets made chief scout but he was just a stats man that got promoted and promoted. Nobody has the CV to be doing the job they're doing, and it's showing because they are making disastrous decisions.
However, if you accept that the recent foreign signings have been committee-led and the domestic signings have been manager-led, I would argue that the Almstadt/Reilly are doing the better job.
Transfer committee: Gil, Amavi, Veretout, Gana, Adama, Crespo, Ayew
Lambert/Sherwood: Sinclair, Richards, Gestede, Lescott, Bunn
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I keep seeing articles (like this one: http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10118235/aston-villa-getting-what-they-deserve-says-matt-law) blaming our woes on our 'transfer committee'. For instance:
Hendrik Almstadt went in as sporting director, but he's never been a sporting director. Paddy Reilly gets made chief scout but he was just a stats man that got promoted and promoted. Nobody has the CV to be doing the job they're doing, and it's showing because they are making disastrous decisions.
However, if you accept that the recent foreign signings have been committee-led and the domestic signings have been manager-led, I would argue that the Almstadt/Reilly are doing the better job.
Transfer committee: Gil, Amavi, Veretout, Gana, Adama, Crespo, Ayew
Lambert/Sherwood: Sinclair, Richards, Gestede, Lescott, Bunn
We can't really claim any signings as a success when we're rock bottom of the league with just one win all season though, can we?
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We can't really claim any signings as a success when we're rock bottom of the league with just one win all season though, can we?
I'm just uncomfortable with the 'narrative' that our recent signings from the French and Spanish leagues are the reason we are going down, when (in my opinion) they are actually our better (or, if you prefer, less worse) players.
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We can't really claim any signings as a success when we're rock bottom of the league with just one win all season though, can we?
I'm just uncomfortable with the 'narrative' that our recent signings from the French and Spanish leagues are the reason we are going down, when (in my opinion) they are actually our better (or, if you prefer, less worse) players.
I get what you're saying, but when we're rock bottom 11 points adrift in January it's hard to regard any of our signings positively.
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I agree with your analysis Ivo. We have actually bought some.good quality; Veretout, Amavi and Ayew would have added something to O'Neill's sides. All the dross like Westwood, Hutton, N'Zogbia etc bought in previous summers aren't worthy of playing for us.
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I agree with your analysis Ivo. We have actually bought some.good quality; Veretout, Amavi and Ayew would have added something to O'Neill's sides. All the dross like Westwood, Hutton, N'Zogbia etc bought in previous summers aren't worthy of playing for us.
The problem with transfer committies is does it get players that the manager wants? I'm sure most of us would have preferred Ayew and co, to the sort of players MON bought in at times but if he doesn't rate them or suit his style of play, then it doesn't matter how good they are. With this latest lot, who do show so promise at times, you get the feeling we were buying for the next manager, not Sherwood. If you have a manager, then for better or worse he has to choose the players he buys IMHO, and if you don't trust him to do that you might as well sack him.
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I'd argue we've bought very little quality. Even the better transfers of the summer, Amavi doesn't look a defender, Gueye has completely disappeared and Veretout looks Ok in a terrible team. Ayew seems to be the one stand out. No one is bottom of the league with 8pts if they've got 6 good players in the side.
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I keep seeing articles (like this one: http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10118235/aston-villa-getting-what-they-deserve-says-matt-law) blaming our woes on our 'transfer committee'. For instance:
Hendrik Almstadt went in as sporting director, but he's never been a sporting director. Paddy Reilly gets made chief scout but he was just a stats man that got promoted and promoted. Nobody has the CV to be doing the job they're doing, and it's showing because they are making disastrous decisions.
However, if you accept that the recent foreign signings have been committee-led and the domestic signings have been manager-led, I would argue that the Almstadt/Reilly are doing the better job.
Transfer committee: Gil, Amavi, Veretout, Gana, Adama, Crespo, Ayew
Lambert/Sherwood: Sinclair, Richards, Gestede, Lescott, Bunn
We can't really claim any signings as a success when we're rock bottom of the league with just one win all season though, can we?
Indeed. Moreover, our previous manager was hired by the board from a 'shortlist of one' wasn't it? And he had, what, half a season's management experience? Granted, he kept us up, but he was a huge gamble long term. Just fits in with a pattern of terrible decisions stretching back five years.
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One of our problems over the last few seasons is that the squad the managers have been picking from has only been around 20 of the 25 players and that we have had constant injuries to those 20, which has resulted in players being played out of position.
every club has injuries
Yes and our squad looked as though it was set up on the basis of we wouldn't get any.
yeah we should have had a squad of 30 then when the other clubs were only allowed 25 but they will be ok as they have crystal balls
No wonder they get injuries
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Taking out last summers signings there are 29 players listed in the original post. In my opinion only 7 have been successful and 4 or 5 of those are debatable.
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Taking out last summers signings there are 29 players listed in the original post. In my opinion only 7 have been successful and 4 or 5 of those are debatable.
When you add to those, some of the substandard players who have come through and featured regularly in that time period (the likes of Baker, Lichaj, Bannan etc.) then it's not hard to see why we've been as bad as we have been.
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Can we just box off the "transfer committee". There isn't one. Just more Sherwood press driven bullshit.
I don't mean to get ratty with people but the amount of buying in to anything negative, no matter how daft, is driving me nuts!
See the forthcoming H+V for the reason why I believe that to be the case....
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Can we just box off the "transfer committee". There isn't one. Just more Sherwood press driven bullshit.
I don't mean to get ratty with people but the amount of buying in to anything negative, no matter how daft, is driving me nuts!
See the forthcoming H+V for the reason why I believe that to be the case....
because tom fox said there isnt one
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but for the £40m we received in the summer we should have really bought (with the addition of another £10/£15m) 4 or 5 replacement players for the 3 key ones that left. Bringing in 12 new players, the majority with little top level experience, has proven to be a folly.
It really takes some doing to take an established Premier League team (even one bouncing around the bottom third) and be eleven points adrift at the half-way point of the season.
2013 and 2014 were very poor, but this close-season has relegated us.
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Can we just box off the "transfer committee". There isn't one. Just more Sherwood press driven bullshit.
I don't mean to get ratty with people but the amount of buying in to anything negative, no matter how daft, is driving me nuts!
See the forthcoming H+V for the reason why I believe that to be the case....
How do you know this?
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Great thread.
I asked on another thread somewhere, of the players we have bought since o Neill left, how many have made a decent contribution to the team, or have or are likely to make any money.
It's a very small list IMO.
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Can we just box off the "transfer committee". There isn't one. Just more Sherwood press driven bullshit.
I don't mean to get ratty with people but the amount of buying in to anything negative, no matter how daft, is driving me nuts!
See the forthcoming H+V for the reason why I believe that to be the case....
Totally agree CL. I don't think our transfer process is all that different to other clubs. There does seem a tendency to decry every aspect of the club right now. I guess in the position we are in it is natural for objectivity to go out of the window.
The point made by the Op is perfectly good, I said the same thing - unwittingly - in another thread a few days ago.
I'd go back even further and say that transfer activity since around 2008 has ill served the club and led us to where we are today. We seen to go into every transfer window needing an unlikely number of new recruits. That number has been increasing each year. No single year's dealing is going to redress the balance. That is nothing to do with a supposed 'committee', it's just a reality of football.
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I agree with a previous poster our problems started with MON and have gone downhill since. Some of the players he bought were roundly criticised by all on here especially his but British only philosophy, Heskey was a prime example but there are numerous others. Lerner was prepared to spend big in those days money wasn't an issue but MON pissed it all up the wall, every manager since has the excuse that they were restricted by the need to reduce wages and could only buy from the basement.
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Good post indeed, enjoying reading your contributions lately.
Agreed. Interesting posts Ivo.
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Transfer Committee or not, our main scout or Head of Recruitment (player wise) came from Liverpool who when you look at what Rodgers spent on who evers recommendation, was not that impressive, yes at least they have given this guy a buss pass and a Euro tunnel pass, but I am yet to be convinced of his capability to be the best out there and when you are looking to cut costs like Randy has, the person who is sourcing out the new talent has to be the best and as stated in another thread, we may now have the structure in place that we have all been crying out for but if it is staffed by muppets still no better than not having one at all.
Also looking back over Randy's years I would be very interested to see what deficit there is on money spent on players and money we have received on sales.
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Can we just box off the "transfer committee". There isn't one. Just more Sherwood press driven bullshit.
I don't mean to get ratty with people but the amount of buying in to anything negative, no matter how daft, is driving me nuts!
See the forthcoming H+V for the reason why I believe that to be the case....
because tom fox said there isnt one
Let's turn this on its head. Leicester are being lauded this season but almost all of their goals have come from cheap, lower league recruits in Vardy and Mahrez. Do you think it was their scouts that suggested signing them? Or that Nigel Pearson spent 80% of his week watching games in Division 4 and the second tier in France?
And for everyone using "Transfer Committee" as a stick to beat the club with, nobody seems to know who is on it. Or how it works. Or why it is shit. It just is and everyone at the club, whether it exists or they are involved or not, is an idiot on account of it.
What do you think happens? That, at the start of the summer, the board sit in an office with piles of cash on tables on front of them like an episode of Dragons Den? That Sherwood walks in and offers to pay 50% of the fee for Andros Townshend out of his own pocket if the club will cover the other half and his wages?
Or do we do exactly what every other club do. Who is on the out pile? What gaps does that leave? Any suggestions Mr Sherwood? If we need someone in that position, with those attributes, what have the scouts seen? What do you think Tim? Sign X.
Every club does the same.
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C'mon Chelters, its sensible posts like that which could kill a thread
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Totally agree with you Cheltenham, but as I have stated previously and you use Leicester as a great example, what ever system we are using, when we as a club have had a major financial restructure, you have to make sure that the person/s that you are relying onto pick the gems are the best out there, I do not believe that Reily is.
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Totally agree with you Cheltenham, but as I have stated previously and you use Leicester as a great example, what ever system we are using, when we as a club have had a major financial restructure, you have to make sure that the person/s that you are relying onto pick the gems are the best out there, I do not believe that Reily is.
That is a different argument. I am not suggesting we have the very best person in every role, just that the structure is sensible and some of the stuff in the press is bollocks.
There is plenty to beat them about without accepting any old shit that is coming out of Sherwood's mouth as another reason to hit them.
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Cheltenham, what I have stated previously it is fine having a structure in place and hopefully make that model, a copy of a system that has been proven that it works, but then if you have a proven structure but put less than competent people into those positions, that structure is a total waste of time.
We have embarked on a new financial model and quite correctly, maybe too much to quickly, but something had to be done, so it then makes even further sense to ensure that you get the best people into all positions. Football must be the only business when we will pay the likes of CNZog ridiculous amounts, but not go ahead and pay top dollar for the talent spotters and I am sorry I think Reilly's record over the last couple of seasons at Liverpool and so far here has not been that great and commitee or not he will be the main information provider about any talent we are looking at.
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Reilly wasn't running the recruitment at Liverpool.
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We keep forgetting players signed in the KMac/Houlllier time
Bent 20m
Makoun 7m
Ireland 8m
Those three left on frees
The 25m profit or so on Benteke covers up a lot of the player losses.
Always thought it was a bit unfair to have a go at Lambert on his transfers as he was well and truly shopping in the bargain bin for most
Better run clubs than ours have expensive flops on their payroll, it's not the reason we are on 8 points unfortunately
From the top of the league down:
- Debuchy, Chambers, Wellbeck, kramaric, bony, Mangala, Fazio, Abebayor, McGeady, united multiple including Mata and Fellaini, Wickham, Mutch, Liverpool multiple including Allen and Enrique, stoke still paying Sidwell and Ireland, Chester, Anichebe, Mcmanaman, Hooper, Lafferty, marveaux, Thauvin, Rodwell, Graham, Johnson, Fletcher