Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine

Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: kippaxvilla2 on December 31, 2015, 10:08:51 AM

Title: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on December 31, 2015, 10:08:51 AM
Like our CEO said though it's easy to just look at the league table....

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10114697/who-tops-the-2015-league-table-burton-edge-out-arsenal-at-the-top
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: rob_bridge on December 31, 2015, 10:10:49 AM
Like our CEO said though it's easy to just look at the league table....

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10114697/who-tops-the-2015-league-table-burton-edge-out-arsenal-at-the-top

It;s a false narrative. Just a fad.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: pauliewalnuts on December 31, 2015, 10:36:22 AM
Like our CEO said though it's easy to just look at the league table....

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10114697/who-tops-the-2015-league-table-burton-edge-out-arsenal-at-the-top

It;s a false narrative. Just a fad.

I think that table should really factor in things like

- number of Facebook "likes"
- number of twitter followers
- number of followers on that weird Chinese language twitter clone
- brand recognition across Asia
- commercial performance

... maybe then it'd give a truer reflection of where the club is.

That table as it stands is utterly meaningless in the modern game.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: andyh on December 31, 2015, 10:40:47 AM
We MUST be top of a table based on carbon neutrality.

Seriously though, we all know how bad we are, but to see it in black and white, as being the worst team in the country is still bloody horrific.

Shame on every one of those players, managers and 'leadership' who have led us here.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Boz on December 31, 2015, 11:00:34 AM
It might not be truly meaningful, but nevertheless it's a sobering reflection on AVFC to be lower than Yeovil Town who are facing yet another relegation.

Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: UK Redsox on December 31, 2015, 11:00:48 AM
That table bit unfair on the mighty 'Nam Town seeing as they're currently tearing up the Bananarama
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: UK Redsox on December 31, 2015, 11:01:29 AM
Just like in Schools, league tables have no place in football
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: QuintonVilla on December 31, 2015, 11:22:18 AM
25 points from 38 games there, stuff dreams are made of. We won't get 15 points from 38 games this season.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: tomd2103 on December 31, 2015, 11:29:48 AM
6 wins in a calendar year.  Truly awful. 
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: aj2k77 on December 31, 2015, 11:44:39 AM
Like our CEO said though it's easy to just look at the league table....

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10114697/who-tops-the-2015-league-table-burton-edge-out-arsenal-at-the-top


You can take the results for the past 5 and a half seasons as well and we are rock bottom of that table too. 5 and a half years of bullshit and excuses.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Lobsterboy on December 31, 2015, 11:45:44 AM
6 wins in a calendar year.  Truly awful. 

This.

We truly are absolute shite
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: QuintonVilla on December 31, 2015, 11:49:00 AM
The stat that really hit it home was Watford have got more Premier League points since August than we have since January. Fricking Watford.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Deano's Mullet on December 31, 2015, 12:03:31 PM
How many home wins out of those 6?
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Karlos96 on December 31, 2015, 12:08:57 PM
How many home wins out of those 6?

I make it 3 home wins - West Brom, Everton and West Ham
The 3 away wins Sunderland, Spurs and Bournemouth.

And just the 17 goals at home in the league.  Absolute disgrace.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Des Little on December 31, 2015, 12:14:15 PM
What an absolute bloody disgrace. Everyone connected with Aston Villa should hang their heads in shame at the sight of that. I don't care what you think of such stats - our great club should never be humiliated like this. Shameful.

Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Deano's Mullet on December 31, 2015, 12:17:22 PM
3 home wins in a year.  Says it all.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Des Little on December 31, 2015, 12:23:59 PM
Can't wait for the ST renewal campaign...
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: rob_bridge on December 31, 2015, 12:34:00 PM
Can't wait for the ST renewal campaign...

We'll see how good Fox's commercial experience comes to bear.

If I were them I'd offer every adult who has had a season ticket either of this season or last a 50% discount. Then offer them at max 350 in premium seats - Upper Witton, Upper Holte and Mid/Upper Trinity and max 250 elsewhere with assorted discounts. We'd lose 2-3m in upfront cash but it would maintain the attending fan base I think.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Des Little on December 31, 2015, 12:37:34 PM
I'm expecting a price freeze 'which is great because you're getting more games' line.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Steve67 on December 31, 2015, 12:38:50 PM
What a truly sad indictement as to how this football club has performed over the last year.  The "match day experience" really has been eroded away hasn't it?  The only exciting thing about going to games these days is the opportunity to pick up another episode of the Heroes and Villains fanzine (Mr Woodhall, are you reading this wonderful advert? lol)
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: rob_bridge on December 31, 2015, 12:40:39 PM
I'm expecting a price freeze 'which is great because you're getting more games' line.

Yep the Old Blues Trick.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: CT on December 31, 2015, 12:59:23 PM
I was scrolling down so far I thought I'd need another IPad!

Quick thank you to Tim Sherwood as all six wins were his if I'm not mistaken.

Funny seeing Cheltenham in 93rd as they're currently top of the Conference - last season they had a group of players who didn't give a shit about the club and we're just poor quality anyway. They got relegated, badly.

Sounds familiar?
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 31, 2015, 01:04:48 PM
Proud History Bright Future
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Mellin on December 31, 2015, 01:16:41 PM
That campaign was meant to be Proud History Shite Future. Auto-correct is to blame.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: ChicagoLion on December 31, 2015, 01:22:51 PM
That campaign was meant to be Proud History Shite Future. Auto-correct is to blame.
The History bit is now being tarnished, 5 years of struggle.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: auntiesledd on December 31, 2015, 01:27:09 PM
How many home wins out of those 6?

I make it 3 home wins - West Brom, Everton and West Ham
The 3 away wins Sunderland, Spurs and Bournemouth.

And just the 17 goals at home in the league.  Absolute disgrace.

Blimey, you've got a good memory!  :(
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: myf on December 31, 2015, 01:42:47 PM
Truly a nightmare. I refuse to give any of my dough to the owners or players. Just hope lerner sells up so I can start going again next year
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Musicmaan on December 31, 2015, 02:37:54 PM
I don't have a clue how to respond to that.

God knows how the decision makers of the club must feel...
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: oswald funkletrumpet on December 31, 2015, 02:43:54 PM
I don't have a clue how to respond to that.

God knows how the decision makers of the club must feel...

not giving a shit/unable to understand the table is the most likely answer

a fucking disgrace
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Des Little on December 31, 2015, 03:27:59 PM
I don't have a clue how to respond to that.

God knows how the decision makers of the club must feel...

not giving a shit/unable to understand the table is the most likely answer

a fucking disgrace

Precisely this. They're a disgrace to the name of our club.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Risso on December 31, 2015, 03:43:39 PM
Like our CEO said though it's easy to just look at the league table....

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10114697/who-tops-the-2015-league-table-burton-edge-out-arsenal-at-the-top

It;s a false narrative. Just a fad.

I think that table should really factor in things like

- number of Facebook "likes"
- number of twitter followers
- number of followers on that weird Chinese language twitter clone
- brand recognition across Asia
- commercial performance

... maybe then it'd give a truer reflection of where the club is.

That table as it stands is utterly meaningless in the modern game.

I'd love to see Tom Fox at say, BP (or any one else except Villa tbh).  "Yes, sales of petrol are down, but that's only bad if you're going to get fixated on sales of petrol as your benchmark". 

The bloomin' great moron.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Musicmaan on December 31, 2015, 04:00:34 PM
I don't have a clue how to respond to that.

God knows how the decision makers of the club must feel...

not giving a shit/unable to understand the table is the most likely answer

a fucking disgrace

Precisely this. They're a disgrace to the name of our club.

Agreed. Entirely sad to witness.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Nelly on December 31, 2015, 04:01:46 PM
Painful to see that. The BBC not too long ago put something on their live updates thing and it really grated with me then, but sadly in retrospect I think they sort of nailed it. "Not your day, not your season, not your era". Wankers. What continues to grate though is that if we just had people in charge with the first clue about football we wouldn't be anywhere near this pit, continually sullying the name of this club.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Jon Crofts on December 31, 2015, 04:02:12 PM
Quite how anyone keeps their jobs at the factory of sadness is beyond me.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Musicmaan on December 31, 2015, 04:06:25 PM
To take any organisation from the heights at which AVFC has operated at pretty constantly for as long as it has, down to the depths which it appears to be in freefall towards, is really quite something.

The market hasn't changed, they're not peddling out of date technology or some other out of date brand and therefore customer demand / market forces can't be blamed.

That's what makes it worse, the fact that it is down to sheer incompetence and bad decision making.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: montague on December 31, 2015, 04:18:47 PM
No CEO in Industry would survive that
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Nelly on December 31, 2015, 04:20:43 PM
Anyway. Sod all that tradition, history and pride malarky - I wonder how we're faring on the Deloitte listing?
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Jon Crofts on December 31, 2015, 04:31:00 PM
Paul Faulkner is probably high giving the wife and kids claiming who's yer daddy for topping the carbon neutral charts after seeing this.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Quiet Lion on December 31, 2015, 05:08:56 PM
So I see Watford have more premier league points than us in 2015, in half as many games!

That's nice
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Jimbo on December 31, 2015, 05:21:27 PM
Bottom of ze whole world.

I vote for a change of name to Randy's Raiders or something. This isn't Aston Villa.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: aj2k77 on December 31, 2015, 05:24:12 PM
I'd like to see some heads roll but it would take an effort that Lerner has never shown since he rocked up here, the status quo will continue and defeats will continue with it.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Villatillidie1982 on December 31, 2015, 05:36:02 PM
It might not be truly meaningful, but nevertheless it's a sobering reflection on AVFC to be lower than Yeovil Town who are facing yet another relegation.
Why is it not truly meaningful? it's presumably based on results so cannot lie. A league table based on the last 5 years probably wouldn't look much better.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: aj2k77 on December 31, 2015, 05:44:42 PM
It might not be truly meaningful, but nevertheless it's a sobering reflection on AVFC to be lower than Yeovil Town who are facing yet another relegation.
Why is it not truly meaningful? it's presumably based on results so cannot lie. A league table based on the last 5 years probably wouldn't look much better.

We would be rock bottom.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: MorrisNielson on December 31, 2015, 10:14:00 PM
For what it’s worth, here’s how 2015 compares to previous years. Roll on 2016…….
(http://i.imgur.com/5tfI76d.png)
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: saunders_heroes on December 31, 2015, 10:25:42 PM
For what it’s worth, here’s how 2015 compares to previous years. Roll on 2016…….
(http://i.imgur.com/5tfI76d.png)

Lowest points total since 1890. Jesus wept.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on December 31, 2015, 10:52:00 PM
And we only played 20 league games in 1890. Rinder in!
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Villatillidie1982 on January 01, 2016, 02:33:59 PM
 Frederick Rinder could probably do a better job even now than the current lot, and he has been dead since 1938!
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: andyh on January 01, 2016, 02:50:03 PM
Remember the vast majority of those are based on 2 pts for a win so even the very low points totals are compare better than they appear, and with far,far fewer games.

I think it's safe to say that 2015 IS(was) the worst year in Villa's history.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: ChicagoLion on January 01, 2016, 07:31:49 PM
Remember the vast majority of those are based on 2 pts for a win so even the very low points totals are compare better than they appear, and with far,far fewer games.

I think it's safe to say that 2015 IS(was) the worst year in Villa's history.

Mr Lerner Come on Down

Take a Bow.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 01, 2016, 07:35:01 PM
Remember the vast majority of those are based on 2 pts for a win so even the very low points totals are compare better than they appear, and with far,far fewer games.

I think it's safe to say that 2015 IS(was) the worst year in Villa's history.

I think there have been plenty worse.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: wittonwarrior on January 01, 2016, 07:36:50 PM
The only performances of note really in 2015 were Sunderland/Tottenham away, Liverpool at Wembley and Everton at Home. 

I don't even consider the two games against Olbion as decent performances.  The league game they tripped themselves up towards the end and the first half of the cup game we could easily have been 2 down.

Upwards and  onwards.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: not3bad on January 01, 2016, 07:42:58 PM
And we only played 24 games in 1890. 2015 then is the worst year in Aston Villa's history.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: andyh on January 01, 2016, 07:45:43 PM
Remember the vast majority of those are based on 2 pts for a win so even the very low points totals are compare better than they appear, and with far,far fewer games.

I think it's safe to say that 2015 IS(was) the worst year in Villa's history.

I think there have been plenty worse.
Which ones?
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 01, 2016, 07:47:01 PM
If the cup game doesn't count because we could have been 2 down,  surely the league game does as we could have been out of sight at HT?
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Richard E on January 01, 2016, 07:49:05 PM
How many of the current squad would get in that 1890 team?
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: not3bad on January 01, 2016, 07:51:25 PM
How many of the current squad would get in that 1890 team?

The 1890 team would probably beat the present team 1-0.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 01, 2016, 07:52:52 PM
Remember the vast majority of those are based on 2 pts for a win so even the very low points totals are compare better than they appear, and with far,far fewer games.

I think it's safe to say that 2015 IS(was) the worst year in Villa's history.

I think there have been plenty worse.
Which ones?

The ones when we were in division three for a start. Then there was the one when we finished fourteenth in division two. 1987 wasn't very clever either.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: andyh on January 01, 2016, 08:04:19 PM
Agreed that there were loads of low points Dave, but even during those low points, we weren't as consistently awful over a 'calendar year' as is shown in that table.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 01, 2016, 08:13:17 PM
Agreed that there were loads of low points Dave, but even during those low points, we weren't as consistently awful over a 'calendar year' as is shown in that table.

It's all relative. Like saying that this team is the worst ever when it clearly isn't, so 2015 might have been almost unremitting shite but it also gave me one of my top ten days watching the Villa and another that gets into the top twenty. 
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: luke95 on January 01, 2016, 08:22:21 PM
Agreed that there were loads of low points Dave, but even during those low points, we weren't as consistently awful over a 'calendar year' as is shown in that table.

It's all relative. Like saying that this team is the worst ever when it clearly isn't, so 2015 might have been almost unremitting shite but it also gave me one of my top ten days watching the Villa and another that gets into the top twenty. 

Yep got to agree with that , Liverpool semi final & the baggies game will long live in the memory.
Those sort of days are why we keep turning up no matter how bad it gets
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: brian green on January 01, 2016, 08:46:43 PM
This "worst" assessment is not really valid.  It is not about numbers or statistics. You cannot say Dickens is better than Shakespeare because he wrote more and sells more copies of his work.  Worst implies a qualatitive evaluation. The game has changed out of all recognition over the period of Villa's history. The abolition of the minimum wage, Bosman, Sky and Manchester City have all imposed huge changes to the ways clubs are obliged to be run.

For example you might look at Blackpool and say their post war history is "better" than their recent history. But they had Matthews, Mortensen, Perry, Armfield, Farm and the rest tied on £20 a week to a club with a ground capacity of 13,000.

When I look back on the awfulness of the forties, fifties and sixties, Villa were like a great big lump of stale bread pudding. Their current awfulness, and they are awful, is more like a fruit salad which is all watery juice and very little fruit with the odd floating dog turd. Yes Delph I am looking at you.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: andyh on January 01, 2016, 09:07:33 PM
Agreed that there were loads of low points Dave, but even during those low points, we weren't as consistently awful over a 'calendar year' as is shown in that table.

It's all relative. Like saying that this team is the worst ever when it clearly isn't, so 2015 might have been almost unremitting shite but it also gave me one of my top ten days watching the Villa and another that gets into the top twenty. 

Yep got to agree with that , Liverpool semi final & the baggies game will long live in the memory.
Those sort of days are why we keep turning up no matter how bad it gets
Beating the bitters should NEVER be considered a highlight that lives long in the memory.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 01, 2016, 09:11:27 PM
This "worst" assessment is not really valid.  It is not about numbers or statistics. You cannot say Dickens is better than Shakespeare because he wrote more and sells more copies of his work.  Worst implies a qualatitive evaluation. The game has changed out of all recognition over the period of Villa's history. The abolition of the minimum wage, Bosman, Sky and Manchester City have all imposed huge changes to the ways clubs are obliged to be run.

For example you might look at Blackpool and say their post war history is "better" than their recent history. But they had Matthews, Mortensen, Perry, Armfield, Farm and the rest tied on £20 a week to a club with a ground capacity of 13,000.

When I look back on the awfulness of the forties, fifties and sixties, Villa were like a great big lump of stale bread pudding. Their current awfulness, and they are awful, is more like a fruit salad which is all watery juice and very little fruit with the odd floating dog turd. Yes Delph I am looking at you.

It held about 40,000 back then.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: PeterWithesShin on January 01, 2016, 09:15:49 PM
Agreed that there were loads of low points Dave, but even during those low points, we weren't as consistently awful over a 'calendar year' as is shown in that table.

It's all relative. Like saying that this team is the worst ever when it clearly isn't, so 2015 might have been almost unremitting shite but it also gave me one of my top ten days watching the Villa and another that gets into the top twenty. 

Yep got to agree with that , Liverpool semi final & the baggies game will long live in the memory.
Those sort of days are why we keep turning up no matter how bad it gets
Beating the bitters should NEVER be considered a highlight that lives long in the memory.

So when we were beating them in FA Cup finals it shouldn't be considered a highlight for those that saw it? If we beat them in this year's cup final it wouldn't live long in your memory?
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: brian green on January 01, 2016, 09:19:19 PM
I would have hated to be there with 40,000 in it. The joke about Blackpool was that it had the biggest car parks and the smallest terraces in the First Division.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: dave.woodhall on January 01, 2016, 09:19:41 PM
Agreed that there were loads of low points Dave, but even during those low points, we weren't as consistently awful over a 'calendar year' as is shown in that table.

It's all relative. Like saying that this team is the worst ever when it clearly isn't, so 2015 might have been almost unremitting shite but it also gave me one of my top ten days watching the Villa and another that gets into the top twenty. 

Yep got to agree with that , Liverpool semi final & the baggies game will long live in the memory.
Those sort of days are why we keep turning up no matter how bad it gets
Beating the bitters should NEVER be considered a highlight that lives long in the memory.

It was our first home FA Cup quarter final win in half a century and against our oldest rivals. Please don't tell me what I should or shouldn't remember.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Richard E on January 01, 2016, 09:21:19 PM
It was the first time we'd been drawn at home in the 6th Round in my lifetime! That in itself was worthy of celebration.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: luke95 on January 01, 2016, 09:25:41 PM
Agreed that there were loads of low points Dave, but even during those low points, we weren't as consistently awful over a 'calendar year' as is shown in that table.

It's all relative. Like saying that this team is the worst ever when it clearly isn't, so 2015 might have been almost unremitting shite but it also gave me one of my top ten days watching the Villa and another that gets into the top twenty. 

Yep got to agree with that , Liverpool semi final & the baggies game will long live in the memory.
Those sort of days are why we keep turning up no matter how bad it gets
Beating the bitters should NEVER be considered a highlight that lives long in the memory.
Beating them twice in 4 days & one of them being the fa cup should ALWAYS be celebrated
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Clampy on January 01, 2016, 09:30:08 PM
Agreed that there were loads of low points Dave, but even during those low points, we weren't as consistently awful over a 'calendar year' as is shown in that table.

It's all relative. Like saying that this team is the worst ever when it clearly isn't, so 2015 might have been almost unremitting shite but it also gave me one of my top ten days watching the Villa and another that gets into the top twenty. 

Yep got to agree with that , Liverpool semi final & the baggies game will long live in the memory.
Those sort of days are why we keep turning up no matter how bad it gets
Beating the bitters should NEVER be considered a highlight that lives long in the memory.
Beating them twice in 4 days & one of them being the fa cup should ALWAYS be celebrated

They'd have brought out a dvd of it.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: Richard E on January 01, 2016, 09:37:14 PM
Agreed that there were loads of low points Dave, but even during those low points, we weren't as consistently awful over a 'calendar year' as is shown in that table.

It's all relative. Like saying that this team is the worst ever when it clearly isn't, so 2015 might have been almost unremitting shite but it also gave me one of my top ten days watching the Villa and another that gets into the top twenty. 

Yep got to agree with that , Liverpool semi final & the baggies game will long live in the memory.
Those sort of days are why we keep turning up no matter how bad it gets
Beating the bitters should NEVER be considered a highlight that lives long in the memory.
Beating them twice in 4 days & one of them being the fa cup should ALWAYS be celebrated

They'd have brought out a dvd of it.

And started a whip round for a statue.
Title: Re: The 2015 Calendar Year Table.
Post by: kippaxvilla2 on January 02, 2016, 12:03:07 AM
Frederick Rinder could probably do a better job even now than the current lot, and he has been dead since 1938!

Judge Rinder would do a better job.
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