Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: IFWaters on December 31, 2015, 09:47:52 AM
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Ive raised this point before on other threads but its always got poo-pooed as impossible, but with our current position and relegation staring us in the face I thought it worthy of discussion in its own right.
What would it take or how could the fans buy out Randy and own Aston Villa ?
Lets say that if /when relegated that Randy just wants to make like a Shummanite , and take a £100million for the whole lot and go and ruin a smalltime baseball team instead. Surely there could be a way that fans / local businesses / even a combination with some players and ex-players could raise the funds to take it on ?
Before you all throw the poo at the idea, here are some examples of clubs owned or majority-owned by fans / members :
Exeter
Portsmouth
Wycombe Wanderers
AFC Wimbledon
All clubs in German 1st / 2nd divisions cannot have a single owner / company owner
Panathanikos
Most clubs in Ireland
Hearts
Barcelona
Real Madrid & half of other La Liga clubs
All clubs in Turkey
I know the above is a mixed bag, but say Mervyn went to Randy to front a bid from the Aston Villa Supporters Trust and Randy said ok, you've got a year and I will also help set-up an arrangement with a bank for loans for members to finance the purchase where its' required.
Here is how I would envisage the money being raised :
a) Local business owners - raise 20 million for a 20% stake, but no-one allowed to own more than 10% of the club.
b) Players - given a take it or leave it to convert 30 million of wages over their contracts (average 4 years) - thats only £130k of wages a week - probably less than 25% of the wage bill. I know a lot of you wouldnt give tuppence for the motivation of the current crop, my point is here that the players cant be allowed to just take their wages, they have to take responsibility but also reap a share of the spoils if the club is successful.
c) Fans / members - offer fans the opportunity to buy 50% of the club. Across say 25,000 ST holders that would be £2,000 each. Randy could arrange 'Randy loans' for the full amount at say 8% over 5 years which would come out at about £40-£50 per month. All members would get 10% off Season Tickets, other tickets, merchandise etc.
There is a bit more thinking here about how the thing could be structured and I dont for one minute think that the type of Ebbsfleet experiment whereby we vote weekly on which of the players should be hanged is the answer, but it seems to me the answer to the deep malaise of the club would be to start with the owners, and the owners should primarily be us. After that I would see a standard board structure headed by Sir Merv or Sir Graham Taylor with say 10 members - 5 fan elected, 3 player reps (eg Dion Dublin / Gordan Cowans / team captain) to represent players and 2 business owners. The board would hire and fire the football and commercial side.
There is a lot more thinking as to what working capital would be needed, perhaps how someone better off could take a bigger stake say but I think its worthy of discussion because if not now, then when ? When will things change until people who love the club take on the responsibility of running it properly ?
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If the club is owned by 1000's people, who is going to choose which players to buy?
Would that still be Paddy or would we all get a vote?
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We could do a poll in here 😜
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b) Players - given a take it or leave it to convert 30 million of wages over their contracts (average 4 years) - thats only £130k of wages a week - probably less than 25% of the wage bill. I know a lot of you wouldnt give tuppence for the motivation of the current crop, my point is here that the players cant be allowed to just take their wages, they have to take responsibility but also reap a share of the spoils if the club is successful.
Sorry, but this is fantasy world stuff.
The players actually *can* take their wages and not take any responsibility for anything bad - and they've all got legally binding contracts that say they can do precisely that.
You say "take it or leave it", so when they all - as they will - say "I'll leave it, thanks", what happens next?
And what do the Premier League think of players owning a chunk of a club they play for? What happens when those players want to move?
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Re the players my point is that players have to take responsibility. Clearly if existing players don't want the opportunity over time they get sold or contracts run down. New contracts would all have to include an element of ownership / responsibility. When contracts end the player could then cash out based on financial position at that time and new players on new contracts take over.
Like I said lots of detail to sort out but I'd also ask what your ideas are that are better ? Chinese or Arab tycoon ? We might as well forget the fans, the clubs history and connection to its local area if that is the only answer .... Being a soccer franchise isn't what interests me at any rate.
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Re the players my point is that players have to take responsibility. Clearly if existing players don't want the opportunity over time they get sold or contracts run down. New contracts would all have to include an element of ownership / responsibility. When contracts end the player could then cash out based on financial position at that time and new players on new contracts take over.
Like I said lots of detail to sort out but I'd also ask what your ideas are that are better ? Chinese or Arab tycoon ? We might as well forget the fans, the clubs history and connection to its local area if that is the only answer .... Being a soccer franchise isn't what interests me at any rate.
I haven't said anything about having better ideas, but that doesn't change a massive enormous insurmountable problem in your calculations, does it?
Players are not going to accept some sort of "money for shares" agreement, and it wouldn't even be legally allowable in any case.
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The other factor to consider with fan ownership is the natural disunity of Villa fans. I've never known us to agree on anything except the pleasure of winning. So you can see the problem inherent in that situation straight away.
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We could look at models of other fan run teams to find the answer to many of our questions. As the OP illustrates we're not short of examples.
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I honestly think this will never happen with a top club in the UK without them having clawed their way back to the top first. The examples of Portsmouth and Wimbledon don't match up to what you're suggesting about the Villa because Portsmouth were a toxic asset the Supporter's Trust managed to negotiate buying for a pittance, and AFC Wimbledon were a concern set up solely to preserve a club in that general area, so were not "bought out" as such. It would be fantastic if they could climb the divisions using their current business model, but there's no way a club with the value of Aston Villa would be bought by fans and local businessmen and run as a co-operative. There's far too much capital involved, which is the bottom line.
As for Barca and clubs in Germany, they've never known any other way of operating, so it's an unfair comparison. I'm not going to go all David Conn and start weighing in with figures, but I'd also imagine Real and Barca owe huge sums to banks that are never going to call in their debts because of the ruckus it would cause. Who wants to be the bank that pisses off all those fans?
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David Cameron is loaded. Perhaps he'd like to get involved in the running of his beloved club?!
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If the club is owned by 1000's people, who is going to choose which players to buy?
Would that still be Paddy or would we all get a vote?
Simples. Footyskillz.
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I honestly think this will never happen with a top club in the UK without them having clawed their way back to the top first. The examples of Portsmouth and Wimbledon don't match up to what you're suggesting about the Villa because Portsmouth were a toxic asset the Supporter's Trust managed to negotiate buying for a pittance, and AFC Wimbledon were a concern set up solely to preserve a club in that general area, so were not "bought out" as such. It would be fantastic if they could climb the divisions using their current business model, but there's no way a club with the value of Aston Villa would be bought by fans and local businessmen and run as a co-operative. There's far too much capital involved, which is the bottom line.
As for Barca and clubs in Germany, they've never known any other way of operating, so it's an unfair comparison. I'm not going to go all David Conn and start weighing in with figures, but I'd also imagine Real and Barca owe huge sums to banks that are never going to call in their debts because of the ruckus it would cause. Who wants to be the bank that pisses off all those fans?
Agree on every point. It would only work for us if every top flight club was operating under the same conditions which isn't going happen this side of an overthrow of the capitalist ruling class. Speaking of which...
David Cameron is loaded. Perhaps he'd like to get involved in the running of his beloved club?!
Additional first team opportunities and pay rises for the likes of Gabby and N'Zogbia, academy prospects expected to pay for their training, blaming absolutely everything on the previous owners, non existent European policy, championing limited but hard working British players over more talented foreign imports, "We're all in this together" before taking on lucrative consultancy at West Ham and leaving Gideon or Boris in charge.
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If I was going to buy it, I'd wait until we'd had two or three years in the Championship/League 1 or whatever and the parachute payments had run out, then do a 100% leveraged buyout for say, £25m or whatever we're worth by then. Then you need a good manager to do a Bournemouth/Watford and get back up, then the resulting Sky money would mean a super pay back on the investment. Then sell up to anybody remotely interested, and live out the rest of my days in obscene luxury. Sorted.
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I just want to know what ALOTBSOL means.
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I'd be up for this. At the moment we have no communication or inkling of the strategies behind the running of the club. Some kind of ownership model that gives supporters a vote on how the club is run and opens up more direct channels of communication would be good. A hybrid of the German/Barcelona models would be interesting. Potential Chairmen could be voted in or out and we would have open target-setting and statements of ambition and direction. Count me in IF Waters.
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I just want to know what ALOTBSOL means.
Always look on the bright side of life.
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Ta muchly.
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No chance. Not even Walt Disney on a slow day would consider such a fantasy. My plan of blackmailing Randy Lerner is infinitely more do able.
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No chance. Not even Walt Disney on a slow day would consider such a fantasy. My plan of blackmailing Randy Lerner is infinitely more do able.
Are you threatening to release documents that suggest he isn't a clueless moron?
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No Jon. It is my get rid of Lambert plan revisited.
Half a dozen of us smarm a personal meeting with the owner in his Wall St office. We go up. One of us says it is very hot in here can we open a window please.
Once the window is open I rush to it, climb out and stand on the ledge.
BE, VID, TV, Dave Shelley, Footy, Leeg or whoever says
Sell the club to somebody who actually gives a f*ck or Brian jumps.
Like Crocodile Dundee said about his knife. That IS a plan.
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I'm always wary about fan buyouts. I know of one sports club (I won't say which one as it wouldn't be fair) where a group of supporters bought the club, but were so desperate for success that they actually offered to pay the players MORE than their initial demands. They were bankrupt within 12 months.
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I'd be up for this. At the moment we have no communication or inkling of the strategies behind the running of the club. Some kind of ownership model that gives supporters a vote on how the club is run and opens up more direct channels of communication would be good. A hybrid of the German/Barcelona models would be interesting. Potential Chairmen could be voted in or out and we would have open target-setting and statements of ambition and direction. Count me in IF Waters.
Me too. For Christ's sake, are we just going to sit here and watch our Villa getting pulled apart, or actually do something to save what we love about our club? Of course, it's not as simple as nodding your head and smiling and there are things we'd need to seriously think over, but why not?
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No Jon. It is my get rid of Lambert plan revisited.
Half a dozen of us smarm a personal meeting with the owner in his Wall St office. We go up. One of us says it is very hot in here can we open a window please.
Once the window is open I rush to it, climb out and stand on the ledge.
BE, VID, TV, Dave Shelley, Footy, Leeg or whoever says
Sell the club to somebody who actually gives a f*ck or Brian jumps.
Like Crocodile Dundee said about his knife. That IS a plan.
"Reception, this is Mr Lerner, we're going to need a shovel and some Domestos."
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I'll have a piece of Risso's leveraged buyout please.
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I'd be up for this. At the moment we have no communication or inkling of the strategies behind the running of the club. Some kind of ownership model that gives supporters a vote on how the club is run and opens up more direct channels of communication would be good. A hybrid of the German/Barcelona models would be interesting. Potential Chairmen could be voted in or out and we would have open target-setting and statements of ambition and direction. Count me in IF Waters.
Me too. For Christ's sake, are we just going to sit here and watch our Villa getting pulled apart, or actually do something to save what we love about our club? Of course, it's not as simple as nodding your head and smiling and there are things we'd need to seriously think over, but why not?
I'll give you two examples of why it's totally impractical.
1) At the second VFC meeting Howard Hodgson stood up and announced plans to buy out Doug. He was greeted with rapturous applause. Then he said he wanted £500 from each supporter to do it. I' ve never seen "deafening silence" so well demonstrated.
2) Doug's 34% of the shares was too much for any one man to own. We wanted a Barcelona model. Along came Randy, and the same people calling for a membership democracy suddenly said equally loudly that the only way forward was for the owner to hold 100%.
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I suppose it could involve the club being run by lots of well meaning idiots as opposed to one well meaning idiot.
Where do I sign?
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What would it take or how could the fans buy out Randy and own Aston Villa ?
Before you all throw the poo at the idea, here are some examples of clubs owned or majority-owned by fans / members :
Exeter
Portsmouth
Wycombe Wanderers
AFC Wimbledon
All clubs in German 1st / 2nd divisions cannot have a single owner / company owner
Panathanikos
Most clubs in Ireland
Hearts
Barcelona
Real Madrid & half of other La Liga clubs
All clubs in Turkey
Swansea are as well aren't they? Might be wrong, but pretty sure their supporters bought the club for £1 when they were in League Two (or whatever is was called back then). Think Lerner's asking price involves a few more zeroes!
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A Load Of Total Bolocks Spent On Losers
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What would it take or how could the fans buy out Randy and own Aston Villa ?
Before you all throw the poo at the idea, here are some examples of clubs owned or majority-owned by fans / members :
Exeter
Portsmouth
Wycombe Wanderers
AFC Wimbledon
All clubs in German 1st / 2nd divisions cannot have a single owner / company owner
Panathanikos
Most clubs in Ireland
Hearts
Barcelona
Real Madrid & half of other La Liga clubs
All clubs in Turkey
Swansea are as well aren't they? Might be wrong, but pretty sure their supporters bought the club for £1 when they were in League Two (or whatever is was called back then).
The club was bought for something like £20,000 by a consortium, of which one member was their Trust, who each put in an initial £50,000.
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What would it take or how could the fans buy out Randy and own Aston Villa ?
Before you all throw the poo at the idea, here are some examples of clubs owned or majority-owned by fans / members :
Exeter
Portsmouth
Wycombe Wanderers
AFC Wimbledon
All clubs in German 1st / 2nd divisions cannot have a single owner / company owner
Panathanikos
Most clubs in Ireland
Hearts
Barcelona
Real Madrid & half of other La Liga clubs
All clubs in Turkey
Swansea are as well aren't they? Might be wrong, but pretty sure their supporters bought the club for £1 when they were in League Two (or whatever is was called back then).
The club was bought for something like £20,000 by a consortium, of which one member was their Trust, who each put in an initial £50,000.
Right you are Dave. Just had a quick look and they were sold twice for £1 before the fan takeover.
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I'd be up for this. At the moment we have no communication or inkling of the strategies behind the running of the club. Some kind of ownership model that gives supporters a vote on how the club is run and opens up more direct channels of communication would be good. A hybrid of the German/Barcelona models would be interesting. Potential Chairmen could be voted in or out and we would have open target-setting and statements of ambition and direction. Count me in IF Waters.
Me too. For Christ's sake, are we just going to sit here and watch our Villa getting pulled apart, or actually do something to save what we love about our club? Of course, it's not as simple as nodding your head and smiling and there are things we'd need to seriously think over, but why not?
I'll give you two examples of why it's totally impractical.
1) At the second VFC meeting Howard Hodgson stood up and announced plans to buy out Doug. He was greeted with rapturous applause. Then he said he wanted £500 from each supporter to do it. I' ve never seen "deafening silence" so well demonstrated.
2) Doug's 34% of the shares was too much for any one man to own. We wanted a Barcelona model. Along came Randy, and the same people calling for a membership democracy suddenly said equally loudly that the only way forward was for the owner to hold 100%.
Fair enough points especially when it comes to asking people to put their hands in their pockets. It just struck me that rather than just sitting on here moaning about how shite everything is it might make a pleasant change to discuss how we can make things better. It can't be done. No one's up for it.
The Apollo missions.
Heart transplants.
The internet.
A woman in her 20s setting the record for sailing single handed round the world.
Going from biplanes to jetplanes in less than 10 years because we were up against the Nazis.
Nah.
Scratches nuts.
Raises buttock, farts.
What's on telly tonight luv ?
Mrs Brown's Boys ?
Bostin !
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IFW
If you really are commited to do something, go ahead.
Its a bit like asking someone directions in Ireland when they say, "well I would not have started from here"
And that advice looks pretty good right now.
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I'd be up for this. At the moment we have no communication or inkling of the strategies behind the running of the club. Some kind of ownership model that gives supporters a vote on how the club is run and opens up more direct channels of communication would be good. A hybrid of the German/Barcelona models would be interesting. Potential Chairmen could be voted in or out and we would have open target-setting and statements of ambition and direction. Count me in IF Waters.
Me too. For Christ's sake, are we just going to sit here and watch our Villa getting pulled apart, or actually do something to save what we love about our club? Of course, it's not as simple as nodding your head and smiling and there are things we'd need to seriously think over, but why not?
I'll give you two examples of why it's totally impractical.
1) At the second VFC meeting Howard Hodgson stood up and announced plans to buy out Doug. He was greeted with rapturous applause. Then he said he wanted £500 from each supporter to do it. I' ve never seen "deafening silence" so well demonstrated.
2) Doug's 34% of the shares was too much for any one man to own. We wanted a Barcelona model. Along came Randy, and the same people calling for a membership democracy suddenly said equally loudly that the only way forward was for the owner to hold 100%.
Fair enough points especially when it comes to asking people to put their hands in their pockets. It just struck me that rather than just sitting on here moaning about how shite everything is it might make a pleasant change to discuss how we can make things better. It can't be done. No one's up for it.
The Apollo missions.
Heart transplants.
The internet.
A woman in her 20s setting the record for sailing single handed round the world.
Going from biplanes to jetplanes in less than 10 years because we were up against the Nazis.
Nah.
Scratches nuts.
Raises buttock, farts.
What's on telly tonight luv ?
Mrs Brown's Boys ?
Bostin !
I with you mate, I was close to opening a thread on this very subject yesterday morning but as usual struggled to put my thoughts together coherently enough is the small timeframe I had.
As Dave has pointed out, it's impractical to the point of impossible, but I still don't think that should mean we should rule out discussing it.
We have some fine minds collected here, not me like I'm a clown, how about we discuss hypothetically what sort of set up would be required for us to get some kind of serious representation at board level?
What would be the democratic structure if it were to happen?
How does it work at those clubs where it's supposed to be in place?
As I say in my earlier disclaimer, I'm basically an ill read buffoon, but I think it's healthy to at least explore these issues a bit tapping into the resource of knowledge gathered here, bloody he'll it's about the one thing that binds us all.
If we don't, I'd half expect Randy to wake up one day, declare he's going to give the club to the fans, and put Jon Fear in charge.
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I to have been thinking about this - however why don't we consider inviting a custodian to buy Villa - ie someone we see fit.
Someone who we as fans can invite to buy us and hopefully someone who would value being directly invited by the fans who may not already understand what a great club this is and perhaps assist them in recommending an acting chairman that we trust.
In fact without going into too much detail at the moment I was involved in such a thing for us a few months ago.
I would be happy to discuss this at length with a few like minded people , perhaps by PM as discussing here may not be appropriate or respectful to current owners.
We are not just a great British club - we are a British institution.
We need to do something before we float into obscurity -
The British Leyland analogy by fellow Villa brother could not be more spot on.
Why have we been so passive in every respect over recent times ?
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this is a very depressing thread
what the fuck has happened to us
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this is a very depressing thread
what the fuck has happened to us
NYE innit? Everyone has been at the ale.
Happy new year everyone!
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I've had a read through most of the thread.
I share the OP's frustration with our club but the proposal is fantasy.
The local businesses element is possibly the most doable of the three parts proposed. The players involvement the least, with the fans involvement only slighly less unlikely.
Lets take a few figures. A Randy loan requiring a repayment of £50 p/m - all fine and dandy in theory, but thats a debt. On top of other debts that the average fan has (mortgage, car finance, credit card, etc). As much as a fan may want to do this, firstly they may not gave the financial resources to do it. Secondly, if they do, they may have a wife/hubby saying, with some justification, "we could use that to pay for x, y or z, besides you already pay £500+ fkr a season card."
Even if you structured things differently and, for instance, said anyone with £20000 available up front could buy a share in the club, the scenario above with unhappy partners saying the money can be better spent elsewhere would still apply. Not to mention that at £20000 a share you'd need 5000 fans to make up the £100M suggested in the OP. We'd have to have the richest fans in football to find that many with that amount of free cash, I'd imagine.
As frustrated as I am with where Villa are, I recognise this as fantasy. The scenario already mentioned where we are bought cheap after the parachute payments have gone is more likely.
But lets not stop dreaming....
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What do all those letters in the title stand for?
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What do all those letters in the title stand for?
Covered earlier in the thread - Always look on the bright side of life.
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What do all those letters in the title stand for?
Covered earlier in the thread - Always look on the bright side of life.
Thanks Chris. The thread looked like a bit of a marathon that I haven't got the energy for.
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In my working life, whenever people who don't understand the full picture look at our situation - they always seem to feel that it's helpful to chip in with "well, why don't you just..."
My response to them, and it seems appropriate here, is "if it was that f***ing simple, don't you think we'd have done it already ?"