Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: kippaxvilla2 on November 29, 2015, 12:40:41 AM
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A good team (in them days great) was dismantled within five years of being successful.
In the relegation season a manager was sacked in the early part of it. I have looked it up Graham Turner was sacked in September 1986.
In theory we thought we had a good team but couldn't defend to save our lives despite having a young Keown in defence.
Differences.
We aren't regularly being battered now we seemed to be in that season.
There was a new manager bounce when McBungle joined albeit it lasted about 5 games
Any other similarities?
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A good team (in them days great) was dismantled within five years of being successful.
In the relegation season a manager was sacked in the early part of it. I have looked it up Graham Turner was sacked in September 1986.
In theory we thought we had a good team but couldn't defend to save our lives despite having a young Keown in defence.
Lots of people thought the owner was to blame.
Differences.
We aren't regularly being battered now we seemed to be in that season.
There was a new manager bounce when McBungle joined albeit it lasted about 5 games
Any other similarities?
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We felt optimistic going into the season. Felt we'd bought well, got injuries early on to key new signings (Neale Cooper). Never recovered.
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I'd say this team is actually worse than 86-87!
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The main similarity is that both chairmen tried to do things on the cheap. Possibly the Neale Cooper injury parallels Amavi too.
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Yellow away kit.
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The air of inevitability? From very early on, despite the optimism that we might turn a corner, we knew we would be relegated, this is how I feel now. Jeez, I hope I'm wrong. Both the 86/87 squad and the current squad have/had good players but it counts for shit if you don't score enough goals or defend properly.
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Great draw in the new managers first game (3-3 away at 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' in 86), then pretty much nothing else to cheer from then on...
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If we get beaten by 5 at Southampton next week that'll be another similarity.
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If we get beaten by 5 at Southampton next week that'll be another similarity.
I was there. Dowie ruined us. I was at the game Des Little mentioned as well, at Anfield. 4-2 at Watford, Barnes ruined us. That was the day they opened their new stand. Elton John on the pitch. Good fun, going up and down the country to watch them, but, knowing we were doomed.
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We had better players in 86-87. However we also had the Biggest Don't Give a Shit Managerbin Our History.
Utter utter wanker. Turner was out of his depth, McNeill was just a Lazy Cretin.
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One big difference: we still getting three times as many people in the ground.
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McNeill actually had a reasonable start, 3-3 at Liverpool, away win at Coventry and home wins against Southampton, Newcastle and Leicester, then we lost 3-1 at Man City and barely won another game all season. We weren't relegated until the final home game, think we'll be gone well before then this time.
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One big difference: we still getting three times as many people in the ground.
Possibly the most remarkable stat of all, that. We regularly get 30,000 plus despite our position and despite the shit over the last five years.
...and home wins against Southampton, Newcastle and Leicester...
How we'd kill for those sort of results now.
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The smell at the club is worse than 86.
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The smell at the club is worse than 86.
Agreed. It was bad enough back then but this feels worse. Far worse.
Back then we had a chairman in Doug Ellis, who despite calls to pack it in, actually cared and was there to be shot at. Now, we have a yank who couldn't give a monkey's toss (other than what$$$ in it for him) and who rarely ventures out of his bolt-hole five time zones away.
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The smell at the club is worse than 86.
Agreed. It was bad enough back then but this feels worse. Far worse.
Back then we had a chairman in Doug Ellis, who despite calls to pack it in, actually cared and was there to be shot at. Now, we have a yank who couldn't give a monkey's toss (other than what$$$ in it for him) and who rarely ventures out of his bolt-hole five time zones away.
The irony of defending Ellis while saying Lerner is in it for the money isn't lost.
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If we get beaten by 5 at Southampton next week that'll be another similarity.
I remember that well, we were 4 down in 20 minutes. That's certainly something this team are capable of next week.
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The smell at the club is worse than 86.
Agreed. It was bad enough back then but this feels worse. Far worse.
Back then we had a chairman in Doug Ellis, who despite calls to pack it in, actually cared and was there to be shot at. Now, we have a yank who couldn't give a monkey's toss (other than what$$$ in it for him) and who rarely ventures out of his bolt-hole five time zones away.
The irony of defending Ellis while saying Lerner is in it for the money isn't lost.
As well as presiding over relegation, history tells us he also subsequently employed the right person to pull the club up by its boot-straps.
This time around we don't have history to look back on. Will Lerner employ the right person? Maybe he already has. But we don't know, and I'm not feeling that confident about it.
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There's the argument that we were very fortunate that Sir Graham was willing to drop down a division to manage us. If anyone saved our arse last tie round, it was him.
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Without going over old ground, he was being handsomely paid while destroying the team not through incompetence but out of sheer malice.
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There's the argument that we were very fortunate that Sir Graham was willing to drop down a division to manage us. If anyone saved our arse last tie round, it was him.
I agree, but it was Ellis who was responsible for bringing him to the club. Just as Lerner is responsible for who he employs now.
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There's the argument that we were very fortunate that Sir Graham was willing to drop down a division to manage us. If anyone saved our arse last tie round, it was him.
I agree, but it was Ellis who was responsible for bringing him to the club. Just as Lerner is responsible for who he employs now.
By the same token, he was also responsible for bringing in Graham Turner and Billy McNeil.
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There's the argument that we were very fortunate that Sir Graham was willing to drop down a division to manage us. If anyone saved our arse last tie round, it was him.
I agree, but it was Ellis who was responsible for bringing him to the club. Just as Lerner is responsible for who he employs now.
By the same token, he was also responsible for bringing in Graham Turner and Billy McNeil.
It'll take your Turner and McNeill and offer McCleish, Lambert and Sherwood.
Another comparison for you - I understand the club were debt-free in 1987. How much debt does the club currently carry presently to Lerner?
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A major difference between the two situations is the appointment of Garde v McNeill. What on earth Doug's logic was in appointing a relegation rival's manager is totally beyond me. The Garde appointment gives me hope. If we can keep in touch by the time the transfer window swings open we have a chance of turning things around.
Comparing the two squads, I recall some of the names from '87 and still shudder: I dont want to name names because a lot of them were good lads brought up from the youth ranks but I will highlight an over the hill Steve Hunt (a parallel there with Lescott come to think of it) as the kind of low rent signing we made back then. Surely the nucleus and overall quality of player is better today?
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It's pretty much a given (the great man said it himself) that Sir Graham appointed us, and thereby lies Doug's greatest asset. Right from the start, whenever we were in trouble there was a manager available to clear up the previous mistakes.
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There is no comparison to 86/87, the financial loss that will hit us this time will take many many years to get over if we actually ever do.
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There's the argument that we were very fortunate that Sir Graham was willing to drop down a division to manage us. If anyone saved our arse last tie round, it was him.
I agree, but it was Ellis who was responsible for bringing him to the club. Just as Lerner is responsible for who he employs now.
By the same token, he was also responsible for bringing in Graham Turner and Billy McNeil.
It'll take your Turner and McNeill and offer McCleish, Lambert and Sherwood.
That's kind of my point in a way, both did/have made iffy choices. Mcleish was just a woeful and bloody stupid appointment. Lambert was a popular enough choice at the time but they left him in the job for far too long. Sherwood got us playing when we needed it.
I'll throw in Dr Jo and we'll call it a draw.
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Billy Walker I would love to have your optimism, I can see us being cut adrift well before the January window and again this is Randy's Aston Villa if we do buy anyone it will be on the 31st January, after another 3 or 4 games without a point.
I really hope you are right as I think this could be a major disaster that 86/87 will not compare to if we go down,
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Billy Walker I would love to have your optimism, I can see us being cut adrift well before the January window and again this is Randy's Aston Villa if we do buy anyone it will be on the 31st January, after another 3 or 4 games without a point.
I really hope you are right as I think this could be a major disaster that 86/87 will not compare to if we go down,
We can't throw in the towel when there's six months of a season left, it's as simple as that.
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There's the argument that we were very fortunate that Sir Graham was willing to drop down a division to manage us. If anyone saved our arse last tie round, it was him.
I agree, but it was Ellis who was responsible for bringing him to the club. Just as Lerner is responsible for who he employs now.
By the same token, he was also responsible for bringing in Graham Turner and Billy McNeil.
It'll take your Turner and McNeill and offer McCleish, Lambert and Sherwood.
Another comparison for you - I understand the club were debt-free in 1987. How much debt does the club currently carry presently to Lerner?
We may have been debt free, but it didn't stop us from being the best team in europe to a second division team inside 5 years.
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We were European Champions when Ellis took over. Relegated four seasons later. Ellis destroyed our one and only chance of consolidating that position and cementing our place amongst the football elite. We have never fully recovered from that.
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We may have been debt free, but it didn't stop us from being the best team in europe to a second division team inside 5 years.
True, although I saw the debt-free thing as being more a crumb of comfort at the time rather than anything to cheer about. The amount we owe Lerner (is it into nine figures yet?) is going to be a serious impediment to us getting out of the Championship (at the right end) I would imagine.
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We may have been debt free, but it didn't stop us from being the best team in europe to a second division team inside 5 years.
True, although I saw the debt-free thing as being more a crumb of comfort at the time rather than anything to cheer about. The amount we owe Lerner (is it into nine figures yet?) is going to be a serious impediment to us getting out of the Championship (at the right end) I would imagine.
Well, he'll want to recoup some money back if and when he sells which is fair enough. As for the championship, we'll cross that bridge if and when we come to it.
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The big difference now is the financial disparity between the top two divisions. Back then it was all part of the Football League family and we were even featured live on television as part of the ITV deal. The fact that no club was rolling in cash was in many respects made it a more level playing field than now. Not that we are in a position to complain: we were instrumental in the PL's inception and have enjoyed every penny of the rewards since then.
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This is the thing Top Deck, I am sure a few other ex-pats on here dread this with all their hearts (not saying non-ex-pats wont , not a better fan that you type of way), living abroad once your team drop out of the all engulfing Prem you drop of the radar, championship games being shown live are like rocking horse shit, I can see every Villa game I want to on Bein sports, so my feeling of connection is complete, I have been home twice in the last 8 years, so have taken in any game I can when I am there, but still can log onto H&V and moan with the rest of my Villa family and have a view as I have seen the game. That I fear for next season will not be the case and the longer Yankee Doodle Dandy stays here as stated earlier, we could be looking for FA Cup fixtures in August.
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No Championship ames shwn here on any medium that i know of. Meaning if we go down next season that's no live Villa games for me either in he flesh or live on Tv. That's not happened for me since 1980-81.
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We will still be on Sky a lot, Leeds have been shown 5 times this season already so sure you can pick up a stream from somewhere.
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Billy Walker I would love to have your optimism, I can see us being cut adrift well before the January window and again this is Randy's Aston Villa if we do buy anyone it will be on the 31st January, after another 3 or 4 games without a point.
I really hope you are right as I think this could be a major disaster that 86/87 will not compare to if we go down,
We can't throw in the towel when there's six months of a season left, it's as simple as that.
Half the players seem to have. Portsmouth put up more of a fight and they're players didn't even know if they were going to get paid on time.
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There is no comparison to 86/87, the financial loss that will hit us this time will take many many years to get over if we actually ever do.
this 100%
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The smell at the club is worse than 86.
Well you could move away from the phantom Holte End Farter in them days.
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The smell at the club is worse than 86.
Well you could move away from the phantom Holte End Farter in them days.
Indeed, that was a terrible problem in K at the time. I much preferred the enduring smell of cigars.
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I see the financial numbers game slightly differently. We have been on a level playing field in terms of sky riches with the remainder of the PL teams during this last five years and we have squandered ours, in the unlikely event that we stayed up is that business model likely to change? We would get more, as would everyone else and we would proportionately squander more on fees and wages and probably be no better off. It's hardly like we are building up the big cash reserve for the rainy day that George Osborne insanely obsesses about. So, we go down, we have significantly less revenue but for next season we have much more than our championship rivals barring those who come down with us. Some, only some, of our bonkers contracts will expire over the summer (CNZ for example on £65k a week means we save over £3m alone by not paying him). The question is can we spin it around in a season, this is where our business model needs to be more focused. If we can, and manage to come straight back up, we are back in the silly money world and can happily start squandering it aimlessly once more. PL cash is a nonsense, whether it was £1m or £100m is irrelevant, it inflates in line with players wages, transfer fees and agents cuts.
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It's also comparable to the 1966-67 season. Not finishing higher than 15th for 4 seasons and then on the 5th season we get relegated. :(
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Billy Walker I would love to have your optimism, I can see us being cut adrift well before the January window and again this is Randy's Aston Villa if we do buy anyone it will be on the 31st January, after another 3 or 4 games without a point.
I really hope you are right as I think this could be a major disaster that 86/87 will not compare to if we go down,
I think it is fair to say we are adrift already. 7points is a big gap considering our form.
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Yellow away kit.
In 69-70 too. Having escaped by the skin of our teeth last season only an idiot would bring back the away colours we wore the last two times we got relegated.
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We may have been debt free, but it didn't stop us from being the best team in europe to a second division team inside 5 years.
True, although I saw the debt-free thing as being more a crumb of comfort at the time rather than anything to cheer about. The amount we owe Lerner (is it into nine figures yet?) is going to be a serious impediment to us getting out of the Championship (at the right end) I would imagine.
Does the club owe Lerner anything? Isn't this all wrapped up in his asking price for the club i.e. reported £150m.
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We may have been debt free, but it didn't stop us from being the best team in europe to a second division team inside 5 years.
True, although I saw the debt-free thing as being more a crumb of comfort at the time rather than anything to cheer about. The amount we owe Lerner (is it into nine figures yet?) is going to be a serious impediment to us getting out of the Championship (at the right end) I would imagine.
Does the club owe Lerner anything? Isn't this all wrapped up in his asking price for the club i.e. reported £150m.
I'm not sure how it works in truth. Maybe someone who's an accountant or similar could shead some light on this.
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I think its way worse than 86/87 i seem to remember us wining games during that season !
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The club doesn't "owe" Lerner anything. The last of the debt was converted to equity (he sold shares to himself to the same value as the outstanding loans) 12 months ago if I remember correctly (It might be 2 years ago thinking about it.)
If he can find a buyer then the buyer isn't buying a club loaded with debt and Lerner's loss is sale price minus the amount he's thrown in.
Unfortunately someone with even moderately deep pockets and good intentions is apparently hard to find.
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I guess whether this season is better or worse that 66/67 or 86/87 depends how the rest of the season pans out.
The way things are going it looks like this will be the worst season in the Club's history.
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After 15 games in 1986 we were on 17 points.
We lost 4-0 to Arsenal on this day in 1986 with a team which included Spink, Williams, Dorigo, Evans, Keown, Walters Hodge and Daley.
I'm too depressed to make any more comparisons, we are down....
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Even Perry fcukin Groves scored in that game.
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I am wondering who will turn out to be this generation's Warren Aspinall.
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After 15 games in 1986 we were on 17 points.
Really? I'm sure we've been scrapping along to basement with worse records than that these last four or five seasons.
Another stat from 1986. I remember our home record that season being won 7, drew 7, lost 7, scored 21, conceded 21. We'd kill for a home record a bit like that now, wouldn't we?
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After 15 games in 1986 we were on 17 points.
We lost 4-0 to Arsenal on this day in 1986 with a team which included Spink, Williams, Dorigo, Evans, Keown, Walters Hodge and Daley.
I'm too depressed to make any more comparisons, we are down....
I remember that game, wasn't it over inside 20 minutes?
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One thing unusual from 86-87 was that the 4th bottom team Charlton had to play off against Leeds from Div2 (old money championship) for the right to stay in the top flight - what a nerve shredder that must have been for the Charlton fans.
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After 15 games in 1986 we were on 17 points.
Really? I'm sure we've been scrapping along to basement with worse records than that these last four or five seasons.
Another stat from 1986. I remember our home record that season being won 7, drew 7, lost 7, scored 21, conceded 21. We'd kill for a home record a bit like that now, wouldn't we?
Just checked and we were actually on 16 points after only 13 games. Hard to believe, compared with the absolute shite we're in today
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After 15 games in 1986 we were on 17 points.
We lost 4-0 to Arsenal on this day in 1986 with a team which included Spink, Williams, Dorigo, Evans, Keown, Walters Hodge and Daley.
I'm too depressed to make any more comparisons, we are down....
I remember that game, wasn't it over inside 20 minutes?
IIRC we held them for about an hour and they scored once and it was game over, rattling in another 3 before the end.
I recall they had a big away support
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After 15 games in 1986 we were on 17 points.
We lost 4-0 to Arsenal on this day in 1986 with a team which included Spink, Williams, Dorigo, Evans, Keown, Walters Hodge and Daley.
I'm too depressed to make any more comparisons, we are down....
I remember that game, wasn't it over inside 20 minutes?
No you are thinking of another drubbing by the Arse at VP when Alan Smith lobbed Spink after about 10 minutes.
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After 15 games in 1986 we were on 17 points.
We lost 4-0 to Arsenal on this day in 1986 with a team which included Spink, Williams, Dorigo, Evans, Keown, Walters Hodge and Daley.
I'm too depressed to make any more comparisons, we are down....
I remember that game, wasn't it over inside 20 minutes?
No you are thinking of another drubbing by the Arse at VP when Alan Smith lobbed Spink after about 10 minutes.
Rocastle with the lob wasn't it? Smith scored I think but it wasn't anything special.
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Ah yes, now you come to mention it. I think Smith beat Spink to one of those GK v Striker header challenges.
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I've said since the start of the season this is the worst side since Billy McBingo's.
Comparison is valid in that then we were signing and blooding young, hungry players with good sell-on values so they thought, as Mr Riley did this Summer.
It didn't work and some of the players sunk without trace (Cooper/Aspinall/Hunt/Elliot) or a living in the lower leagues (Glover/Bradley/Kerr/Stainrod) others made reasonable careers (Keown, Hodge, Dorigo, Daley).
Of the players we have now Amavi read Dorigo, the rest will scuttle off back to France or wherever, we will need, as we did then, a complete new team for the rigours of the Championship.
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After 15 games in 1986 we were on 17 points.
We lost 4-0 to Arsenal on this day in 1986 with a team which included Spink, Williams, Dorigo, Evans, Keown, Walters Hodge and Daley.
I'm too depressed to make any more comparisons, we are down....
I remember that game, wasn't it over inside 20 minutes?
No you are thinking of another drubbing by the Arse at VP when Alan Smith lobbed Spink after about 10 minutes.
Yes, new years eve 1988.
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Our last away game this time is at Arsenal, a far cry from our last game at Arsenal in 1981 that's for sure.
Our last away game in 87 was at Man United when we were already down yet took thousands and I remember it as a great day out despite the circumstances. I remember fancy dress was getting into vogue so shared a platform at Picaddily station for the train home with, amongst others, Superman, Batman and Adolf Hitler.
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One thing unusual from 86-87 was that the 4th bottom team Charlton had to play off against Leeds from Div2 (old money championship) for the right to stay in the top flight - what a nerve shredder that must have been for the Charlton fans.
Yes their prize for finishing out of the bottom three was a play-off against Leeds in Small Heath.
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In 1986 we were shit. This year we are even shitter.
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McNeils first team v Liverpool was below. On paper thats not bad, certainly at the back. Quite a few of these these would enhance the current team.
Nigel Spink
David Norton
Allan Evans
Martin Keown
Paul Elliott
Tony Dorigo
Paul Birch
Steve Hodge
Simon Stainrod
Garry Thompson
Steve Hunt
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McNeils first team v Liverpool was below. On paper thats not bad, certainly at the back. Quite a few of these these would enhance the current team.
Nigel Spink
David Norton
Allan Evans
Martin Keown
Paul Elliott
Tony Dorigo
Paul Birch
Steve Hodge
Simon Stainrod
Garry Thompson
Steve Hunt
The big trouble with that team is that there isn't a single decent outfield player with a spine whose best days weren't at least three or four years either past or in the future.
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McNeils first team v Liverpool was below. On paper thats not bad, certainly at the back. Quite a few of these these would enhance the current team.
Nigel Spink
David Norton
Allan Evans
Martin Keown
Paul Elliott
Tony Dorigo
Paul Birch
Steve Hodge
Simon Stainrod
Garry Thompson
Steve Hunt
The big trouble with that team is that there isn't a single decent outfield player with a spine whose best days weren't at least three or four years either past or in the future.
Observant as always and I am surprised the odd one out could stand up straight.
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Dorigo and Hodge were also working their ticket which didn't help matters.
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We had better players in 86-87. However we also had the Biggest Don't Give a Shit Managerbin Our History.
Utter utter wanker. Turner was out of his depth, McNeill was just a Lazy Cretin.
apparently McNeill didnt open a single bit of mail and when he left there was a ton iof it. Sources claimed he was waiting for the Celtic job which he duly took once he had been fired at the end of the season. In an interview sometime around 1990 he branded Villa "a citadel of doom".
I wanted to test the letter thing so in 1989 when he was Celtic manager I wrote a fan letter to Celtic and he replied and personally signed the letter!
As for Turner. Never in my life have i been as glad to see a Villa manager sacked as much as him. He was the true cretin. Case in point: banishing Dennis Mortimer to an entire season in the reserves in his first season. Bomb squad v1.
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I've said since the start of the season this is the worst side since Billy McBingo's.
Comparison is valid in that then we were signing and blooding young, hungry players with good sell-on values so they thought, as Mr Riley did this Summer.
It didn't work and some of the players sunk without trace (Cooper/Aspinall/Hunt/Elliot) or a living in the lower leagues (Glover/Bradley/Kerr/Stainrod) others made reasonable careers (Keown, Hodge, Dorigo, Daley).
Of the players we have now Amavi read Dorigo, the rest will scuttle off back to France or wherever, we will need, as we did then, a complete new team for the rigours of the Championship.
in fairness Steve Hunt was playing very well for the club in the promotion season but had a knee injury that ended his career. He was a good player for the Villa.
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I've said since the start of the season this is the worst side since Billy McBingo's.
Comparison is valid in that then we were signing and blooding young, hungry players with good sell-on values so they thought, as Mr Riley did this Summer.
It didn't work and some of the players sunk without trace (Cooper/Aspinall/Hunt/Elliot) or a living in the lower leagues (Glover/Bradley/Kerr/Stainrod) others made reasonable careers (Keown, Hodge, Dorigo, Daley).
Of the players we have now Amavi read Dorigo, the rest will scuttle off back to France or wherever, we will need, as we did then, a complete new team for the rigours of the Championship.
I agree, most Prem League teams except the YO YO Clubs are not prepared for the Championship. Our current set up is certainly not equipped.
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After 15 games in 1986 we were on 17 points.
We lost 4-0 to Arsenal on this day in 1986 with a team which included Spink, Williams, Dorigo, Evans, Keown, Walters Hodge and Daley.
I'm too depressed to make any more comparisons, we are down....
I remember that game, wasn't it over inside 20 minutes?
No you are thinking of another drubbing by the Arse at VP when Alan Smith lobbed Spink after about 10 minutes.
Rocastle with the lob wasn't it? Smith scored I think but it wasn't anything special.
This was the Arse game at Villa Park (29/11/1986)
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After 15 games in 1986 we were on 17 points.
We lost 4-0 to Arsenal on this day in 1986 with a team which included Spink, Williams, Dorigo, Evans, Keown, Walters Hodge and Daley.
I'm too depressed to make any more comparisons, we are down....
I remember that game, wasn't it over inside 20 minutes?
No you are thinking of another drubbing by the Arse at VP when Alan Smith lobbed Spink after about 10 minutes.
Rocastle with the lob wasn't it? Smith scored I think but it wasn't anything special.
This was the Arse game at Villa Park (29/11/1986)
I was there with the old man and jcsutv, it was very depressing especially as it was a day short of my 12th birthday.
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I think I remember Keown on football focus commenting on the John Terry Wayne Bridge affair saying the same was going on at Villa in 87
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Edit: Fixed by PWS
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^^ Attempt at embedding a video failed!
So here is the link
Garry Thompson and Nigel Spink talking about the last time we were relegated.
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I think I remember Keown on football focus commenting on the John Terry Wayne Bridge affair saying the same was going on at Villa in 87
Wasn't it Keown doing the shagging? I was told that it hastened his departure? Probably a myth
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I think I remember Keown on football focus commenting on the John Terry Wayne Bridge affair saying the same was going on at Villa in 87
Wasn't it Keown doing the shagging? I was told that it hastened his departure? Probably a myth
I doubt he would highlight it on MOTD if he was the guilty party [but I've not seen *the* interview or heard the rumours].
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Well Steve hodge certainly humped the fans and the club.
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(youtube)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX0CkzUiHYg(/youtube)
Make the brackets square ones.
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And remove the s from HTTPS (as shown in the post above.
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During last season it felt more like 86/87 to me, to be honest; although of course it ended on a different note. This year we've only really been thumped away at Everton. In fact, most games we've only lost by a single goal.
In 86/87 - and last season - we were absolutely hammered in some games: 6-0 away at Forest (86/87) - 6-1 away at Southampton (14/15); 5-0 at the Arsenal (14/15) - 5-0 away at The Dell (86/87), again; and sundry other games where we were turned over by teams that we really should have been beating (for 86-87 see Charlton, Watford, Norwich, Luton; for 14/15 Hull, QPR, WBA, Stoke).
This season we've really paid the consequences for going into the season with such a weak forward line-up. If you look at the passing statistics for most of our matches, you can see that we normally knock the ball around far more than the opposition. We are just far too lightweight up front.
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Reserve goalkeeper called up for end-of-season run in?
Mark Bunn/Kevin Poole.