Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Phil from the upper holte on October 26, 2015, 08:41:08 AM
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I just watched this from last night..http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/34631974
They ask who would want the job? Managers used to think we were a massive Club but are we now the unwanted job in football?
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I just watched this from last night..http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/34631974
They ask who would want the job? Managers used to think we were a massive Club but are we now the unwanted job in football?
It's 6 seasons of austerity that's got us into this mess so I'm not surprised we struggle to attract decent managers.
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Part of it is something wrong with the club itself, but I think a bigger part comes down to the fact that the managers we've had since Houllier simply aren't very good, rather than being dragged down by the club's problems. McLeish, we all knew what he was. Same with Sherwood - many of us suspected he was a chancer. Lambert - yeah, he had to deal with the worst of the austerity, but he had a chance to build on a decent second half of his first season, and didn't do so at all.
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Is it a career Ender? Mon did OK because he walked. SGT got the England job but other than that I can't think of anyone who went onto something better?
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Ssshh. You'll scare them off.
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Only if the manager is shit.
The only thing we have going for us that if a manager does do well, they'll looking like a genius.
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Is it a career Ender? Mon did OK because he walked. SGT got the England job but other than that I can't think of anyone who went onto something better?
Not many bigger jobs than Villa though.
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Good managers did well, shit ones floundered. It's not rocket science. You employ someone like Mcleish and you won't score many goals or win many games. You employ someone untested like Lambert and when push comes to shove you have no idea if they will go in to their shell and crack, there's no refrence point for them.
You employ someone seasoned in big jobs with good results and they tend to do well.
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I think it is a bit like Man City back in the 90s/ 00s, where they got through a lot of managers that did not go on to do much else. I think it is a tough one, but the person who gets it right, and someone will, will be a massive hero and their career will go upwards fast.
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I don't think it is, I just think most of our recent managers didn't realise how big a club they were joining and they were either not good enough (Sherwood, McLeish) or got totally overwhelmed by it (Lambert). The budgeting hasn't helped but I genuinely believe that no amount of extra funding would've seen those 3 turn out successfully. Houllier is an anomaly largely because I think he 'got it' but he saw the squad he inherited and realised it was going to be a massive job to turn it into one he was happy to work with. I'm convinced that he'd told the board exactly that and when he had to leave they decided to look for a manager who could work with what we had instead of having to go through with that clear out.
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I don't think our recent managers could believe they were actually offered the Villa job. None of them deserved it that's for sure.
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Roy Keane would kick arse and be good for a quote now and again. But I am en Garde.
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Roy Keane would kick arse and be good for a quote now and again. But I am en Garde.
Maybe we should send out for Ronnie Pickering.
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I think managing any big club with big expectations can be a make or break situation. If you fail, it's usually all downhill. It's not just us, Spurs, Newcastle, Everton have over the years all had managers that looked promising, flopped, and either scuttled off back abroad, dropped down the divisions or simply disappeared off the radar. It will be interesting to see what happens next for Lambert and Rodgers who looked two of the most promising young managers a few years ago, but have both flopped to varying degrees at bigger clubs. The problem with us now is we're probably seen, like Newcastle, as something of a basket case.
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Is it a career Ender? Mon did OK because he walked. SGT got the England job but other than that I can't think of anyone who went onto something better?
Not many bigger jobs than Villa though.
Precisely - and not in a big-headed, ideas-above-our station way either. There just aren't that many more upwards steps to take.
How many Spurs or Newcastle managers in the last generation have gone on to bigger things than those jobs? Like us, they've each provided England with a manager and that's about it.
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There certainly seems to be some kind of poisonous slime mould growing in the walls. It has a strange effect on managers' brains where no matter who you are or where you came from, after a while Gabby is the first name on your team sheet and Westwood is on set pieces.
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At the moment it seems to be.
We have very little credibility as a decent sized club with Randy looking to sell.
The sooner he sells, the better in my view.
Difficult to see how we can attract a proven manager with so much uncertainty around the club.
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Most of the managerial appointments over the past 25 years were decent ones at the time. McLeish was an unforgivable mistake, Houllier and GT2 were miles past it. But most of the others were arguably good appointments at the time.
The morons we have running that club in that time are more at fault, HDE and Randolph
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Roy Keane would kick arse and be good for a quote now and again. But I am en Garde.
Maybe we should send out for Ronnie Pickering.
WHO?!
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Roy Keane would kick arse and be good for a quote now and again. But I am en Garde.
Maybe we should send out for Ronnie Pickering.
WHO?!
RONNIE PICKERING!
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RONNIE FUCKING PICKERING!!!!
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It's simple really, years of a penny-pinching budget and poor manager appointments are to blame. Lerner is a disgrace as custodian of this great club. A disastrous last 5 years of gradual decline.
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Is it a career Ender? Mon did OK because he walked. SGT got the England job but other than that I can't think of anyone who went onto something better?
Not many bigger jobs than Villa though.
Precisely - and not in a big-headed, ideas-above-our station way either. There just aren't that many more upwards steps to take.
How many Spurs or Newcastle managers in the last generation have gone on to bigger things than those jobs? Like us, they've each provided England with a manager and that's about it.
Whilst there may not be many upward steps, anyone who manages the Villa tends to disappear in to obscurity very quickly. I can't name a single manager, Sir GT aside, in the past 30 years who has had anything other than the managerial wilderness. MON's the only one to have kept his career going post-Villa (Sir Brian going to Stoke ended his career, even though strictly he carried on managing) and even he's a busted flush in club football now.
Spurs and Newcastle don't destroy careers - there's lots of examples of managers at both of them who've gone on to be successful elsewhere.
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we are a poison chalice, we are a car crash of a club, top to bottom, but I bet there is a huge list of applicants wanting to have a go.
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True, and I honestly believe that the right man could still have us mid table (although very unlikely this season now).
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One day, somebody will get it right, and I will go to Blackpool and get his face tattooed on my leg so badly that I will be unable to go swimming in public for the rest of my life
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"The right man" would never take the job with the club in it's current position.
Up for sale, absent owner, inexperienced staff in crucial positions...doesn't appeal does it?
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RONNIE FUCKING PICKERING!!!!
Do you know who he is?!
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One day, somebody will get it right, and I will go to Blackpool and get his face tattooed on my leg so badly that I will be unable to go swimming in public for the rest of my life
get his face tattooed on your face
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RONNIE FUCKING PICKERING!!!!
Who is that?
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As for the villa job, its one I'd love. Well paid, easy to get the boot from and get compensated for your troubles.
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good point, really its everyone's dream gig, a minimum jackpot of £2m for a few months work. Much better than scratch cards or, indeed, the main draw.
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As for the villa job, its one I'd love. Well paid, easy to get the boot from and get compensated for your troubles.
I don't know, the seat's a bit too close to the pitch for my liking, and the football's not exactly up to much either.
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Roy Keane would kick arse and be good for a quote now and again. But I am en Garde.
Maybe we should send out for Ronnie Pickering.
"Who is this Ronie Pickering c*nt? Does he want some?" Wealdstone Raider.
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you bet he does and he's bringing that geezer from Eastenders with him for some afters
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As for the villa job, its one I'd love. Well paid, easy to get the boot from and get compensated for your troubles.
I don't know, the seat's a bit too close to the pitch for my liking, and the football's not exactly up to much either.
and you get those nasty men behind the dugout shouting at you
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you bet he does and he's bringing that geezer from Eastenders with him for some afters
Ron Knee of Neasden Athletic is alledgedly unhappy with conditions, lord gnome reports.
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As for the villa job, its one I'd love. Well paid, easy to get the boot from and get compensated for your troubles.
I don't know, the seat's a bit too close to the pitch for my liking, and the football's not exactly up to much either.
and you get those nasty men behind the dugout shouting at you
The parking spot would come in handy, though you'd have to leave well before the final whistle if you wanted to get out in good time.
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It is now. We don't sack a manager for 18 years then it's 3 in 4 years.
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that's why the posh leather seats in the dug out look so new and unused.
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O'Neill wasted the first splurge of cash and Sherwood had a decent amount of money to go back to the canvas with to build his team. I wouldn't be surprised if the new manager isn't given funds. However, given that we are rock bottom and as the job isn't as enticing as it should be there must be a carrot dangled in front of any manager other than an up and coming one who thinks he's the person to turn it around.
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I'm guessing a massive bonus for keeping us up might be top of the list?
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Even Mr. Saunders couldn't hack it when he left, and only Sir Graham went on to bigger things, and that didn't turn out too well either. So I guess the answer to the OP's question is yes.
I reckon anyone who takes the job has got to get very lucky sharpish. As in a new owner with oodles of cash or he has a coaching staff that know what they're doing.
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No. We just have a history of employing crap managers...or good managers at the wrong time.
I'm sick of hearing the lines about losing the "likes of" Benteke and Delph...they were 2 players of the "likes of" them. We have massively improved the squad in terms of quality this summer, and it is simply the failings of Sherwood and his back room staff for the results on the pitch (team selections, tactics, coaching, formations, set pieces, fitness, etc).
If we get a genuinely good manager then they will walk into a very good club, with a good set up and talented players...if things aren't quite right, then a good manager will also be able to address those issues regardless of the owner.
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Don't think it is a bad job. We are a big club and all the fans demand quality and entertaining football and be competitive. We have not done that for a long time. Sometimes after a bright start, managers couldn't keep up the momentum and have the ability to turn round momentum after a slump.
Look at the men we appointed since Billy O'Neill.
Sherwood - couldn't get result after reaching semi final for FA Cup and was lucky to get the job in first place. Lack of tactical knowledge and experience doesn't help. Think he got wrong coaching team.
Lambert - Pressure got to him and apart from Benteke his signing had not been great for the club.
McLeish - Was lucky to get the job first place, probably due to leading Birmingham City Cup winning season. He wasn't loved by the fans. Poor football and results mean he is not good enough for us.
Houiller - Was a good appointment but his health and diplomacy was lacking as he talk too much about Liverpool. Think he should be director of football rather manager.
O'Neill - Was good appointment, but in the end he doesn't use transfer/wages budget wisely plus he tried to stick with British based players. Think he could have lead Villa in Champions League football.
O'Leary - Made too many enemies with the fans. He doesn't get the club and talk too much about Leeds.
Graham Taylor - 2nd time - Couldn't find the magic and tried to work with existing coaching staff and players. He is old fashioned.
John Gregory - Bright start but could not keep up the momentum and fell out with Doug Ellis and produce boring defensive football we dislike. He also spend too much money and get little return.
Brian Little - Great appointment but in the end Stan Collymore signing shouldn't happens as he find the pressure of Villa job too much for him and wasn't the same since he left Villa. I think if Stan Collymore delivered the good, Brian Little probably do another 5 years in the job. Won a cup as well.
Ron Atkinson - Right man for the job but ran out of ideas in the end and won the cup for us. I would thought if he had bit more backing and he could do more and made lot of good signings.
Dr Josef Venglos - Bold appointment, but in the end of day he didn't stamp his authority in the job and our footballers are not ready for new ideas and he didn't bring his men in or change the club enough.
Graham Taylor - Promotion, Runner up and become England Manager. Done great job and think he could lead us to the title if he stay there for another 3 years. He also need better backing as if he signed Sheringham instead of Cascarino we would won the title.
It seems to me the pressure of the job, lack of backing in crucial time and fighting with Ellis/Lerner made it difficult. The pressure from fans doesn't help. I believe if we have entertaining football, regular European football and exciting players and team. We will be happy. We don't have anything to cheers for long time.
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It's simple really, years of a penny-pinching budget and poor manager appointments are to blame. Lerner is a disgrace as custodian of this great club. A disastrous last 5 years of gradual decline.
quite rapid decline, you could say- when you look at where we were 5 years ago in comparison to where we currently languish and the time it took for us to get there.
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we are like a grand country estate that has been allowed to fall into gentle dilapidation. What we need is Julian Fellows to come along and put everything right in a soft focus, back lit Sunday night kind of way
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we are like a grand country estate that has been allowed to fall into gentle dilapidation. What we need is Julian Fellows to come along and put everything right in a soft focus, back lit Sunday night kind of way
Hugh Bonneville and Maggie Smith in the dug out.
Bit of a gamble, but so's the bloke from the French second division.
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Tim Sherwood
Edit: ignore that, I was replying to something on page 1 without noticing there were a few pages after!
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Michelle Dockery as our new physio wouldn't be a bad shout either.
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Michelle Dockery as our new physio wouldn't be a bad shout either.
I'd have more groin strains than Nathan Baker.
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Ha! Whilst we're at it, might as well get Helen George in to assist. She's also a Villa fan so a double plus.
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No, the issue lies with the managerial appointments post O'Neill.
Plenty of money has still been spent, enough to bring together a competitive side, it's just been wasted on too much garbage as we lurch from one managers idea to another.
Houiller delivered a mid-table finish that we would cry out for now. The flirt with a relegation battle, the few surrenders and poor results, when viewed through the prysim of what went before, always meant we'd feel disappointed. His health did for him, but I am confident with the players he would have brought in, that we would not have struggled so badly the following seasons.
McLiesh remains the greatest mystery in our history. I have no explanation for him. 7 wins in a season. Absolutely frightening. To try and court Martinez and end up with that loser is madness.
Lambert; came from a small provincial club with little expectation of pressure. He was way out of his depth and retreated into his shell. Should have been sacked in 2012/13. The run at the end of that year saved him and us, but was a massive false dawn.
Sherwood; a charlatan. Even more out of his depth than Lambert.
Get this appointment right and we too can enjoy the dizzying heights of mid-table. It's not hard to correlate shit managers with shit seasons.
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I personally don't buy into this poison chalice argument- there is a danger of creating a myth that thrives on negativity. Why wouldn't a Manager want to invest his time and reputation on a club that has been in the Premier League since inception, is the largest and best supported club in the second largest city of the U.K., has a pedigree and history that is unrivalled amongst its peers, has a solid infrastructure, financially stable, has a squad of players that can be moulded and coached to greatness, and more than anything a fantastic supporter base which will, with just a few signs of improvement being evident, back the Club through and through. UTV
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good points, well made.
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Financially solid? I had taken that we don't have the money to pay Remy's Garde staff.
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We won't be financially solid if we pay every ransom note that comes our way Archie. I am sure there are negotiations under way to reach a compromise as regards to the back room staff. It's all part of the game.
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Financially solid? I had taken that we don't have the money to pay Remy's Garde staff.
What are Physio's and Assistant managers on? A few hundred grand at most. We have the money for that, we will just feck around for a while, being nice. They'll come, I just can't see us not getting a manager in because we can't convince a small, second division French side to part with a physio. It wouldn't make any sense.
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so totally par for Villa's course then.
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I personally don't buy into this poison chalice argument- there is a danger of creating a myth that thrives on negativity. Why wouldn't a Manager want to invest his time and reputation on a club that has been in the Premier League since inception, is the largest and best supported club in the second largest city of the U.K., has a pedigree and history that is unrivalled amongst its peers, has a solid infrastructure, financially stable, has a squad of players that can be moulded and coached to greatness, and more than anything a fantastic supporter base which will, with just a few signs of improvement being evident, back the Club through and through. UTV
Because despite all of that, the only manager in the last 30 years to not destroy his career by taking over the Villa has been Sir GT.
There are lots of managers keen to take the job but they don't have the pedigree we'd like. The managers that do have the pedigree we want probably think the risks outweigh the benefits given our realistic expectations of "success" given where we are now is a place in the Europa League at some stage in the next 5 years and maybe a domestic cup.
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From a slightly different angle, it appears that getting the job on a very short term basis has not done a lot of good for Kevin Mac's outlook.
EuroSport (http://au.eurosport.com/football/caretaker-boss-kevin-macdonald-concerned-for-aston-villa-s-next-generation_sto4970297/story.shtml)
Caretaker boss Kevin MacDonald concerned for Aston Villa's next generation
Kevin MacDonald has revealed that Aston Villa's sacking of Tim Sherwood could undermine the club's plans to improve their youth development system.
By PA Sport Report
Sherwood was dismissed as manager on Sunday, with MacDonald succeeding him on a temporary basis, after Saturday's 2-1 defeat by Swansea left them bottom of the Barclays Premier League.
Villa were eliminated from the Capital One Cup on Wednesday after losing to Southampton by the same scoreline, but, despite their poor results so far this season - they last won a league fixture on August 8 - MacDonald is concerned that Sherwood's absence could inhibit the club elsewhere.
The former manager, in a previous role as Tottenham's technical director, was credited with the development of a generation of players that includes Steven Caulker, Jake Livermore, Danny Rose and Andros Townsend, and had also been key in Jack Grealish regularly featuring at Villa.
According to MacDonald, Villa's youth players were again becoming a priority at the club, but after Sherwood's departure that may no longer be the case.
"We had discussed it," MacDonald said after Wednesday's defeat at Southampton.
"I was going to move sideways to work with the development side because we have a big belief between us, with Tim, myself, (and coaches) Tony McAndrew and Ben Petty from further down, about how we were going to develop the players.
"That was good for me, I could get my hands dirty a lot more, but it was always a plan that we had. I'm disappointed because Tim was very, very good to me.
"The other thing that people tend to forget: they always tend to think that whatever team it is, it's Aston Villa first team. Well it's not, it's Aston Villa Football Club, so I've moved a couple of the younger coaches up to work with me (while overseeing the first team) but then of course we're short on the other side."
Ray Wilkins' summer arrival as Sherwood's assistant manager had allowed MacDonald, who nurtured Gary Cahill, Gabriel Agbonlahor and Gareth Barry into the first team during a previous period at the club, to concentrate on the Under-21s and below and there is no guarantee that he will return to doing so when a new manager is appointed.
"It becomes quite difficult for everybody, but this is why we're involved in the coaching side because we want to do it, and we want to make sure that nobody misses out," he said.
"You have to take care of the schoolboys who are coming through, you have to take care of the Under-18s, the Under-21s, because every day they miss a chance to play and train, they miss a chance to practice and become better."
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I think so.
There have been some interesting articles recently about the mismatch between expectations and financial ownership. Recent history is frighteningly alarming. Lerner publicly wants rid. Squad is clearly poor.
Yes we are a PL club but highly likely not much longer.
Very sad times and I fear for whomever is brave enough to take it on. They won't be given the time they need and that's the problem
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From a slightly different angle, it appears that getting the job on a very short term basis has not done a lot of good for Kevin Mac's outlook.
EuroSport (http://au.eurosport.com/football/caretaker-boss-kevin-macdonald-concerned-for-aston-villa-s-next-generation_sto4970297/story.shtml)
Caretaker boss Kevin MacDonald concerned for Aston Villa's next generation
Kevin MacDonald has revealed that Aston Villa's sacking of Tim Sherwood could undermine the club's plans to improve their youth development system.
By PA Sport Report
Sherwood was dismissed as manager on Sunday, with MacDonald succeeding him on a temporary basis, after Saturday's 2-1 defeat by Swansea left them bottom of the Barclays Premier League.
Villa were eliminated from the Capital One Cup on Wednesday after losing to Southampton by the same scoreline, but, despite their poor results so far this season - they last won a league fixture on August 8 - MacDonald is concerned that Sherwood's absence could inhibit the club elsewhere.
The former manager, in a previous role as Tottenham's technical director, was credited with the development of a generation of players that includes Steven Caulker, Jake Livermore, Danny Rose and Andros Townsend, and had also been key in Jack Grealish regularly featuring at Villa.
According to MacDonald, Villa's youth players were again becoming a priority at the club, but after Sherwood's departure that may no longer be the case.
"We had discussed it," MacDonald said after Wednesday's defeat at Southampton.
"I was going to move sideways to work with the development side because we have a big belief between us, with Tim, myself, (and coaches) Tony McAndrew and Ben Petty from further down, about how we were going to develop the players.
"That was good for me, I could get my hands dirty a lot more, but it was always a plan that we had. I'm disappointed because Tim was very, very good to me.
"The other thing that people tend to forget: they always tend to think that whatever team it is, it's Aston Villa first team. Well it's not, it's Aston Villa Football Club, so I've moved a couple of the younger coaches up to work with me (while overseeing the first team) but then of course we're short on the other side."
Ray Wilkins' summer arrival as Sherwood's assistant manager had allowed MacDonald, who nurtured Gary Cahill, Gabriel Agbonlahor and Gareth Barry into the first team during a previous period at the club, to concentrate on the Under-21s and below and there is no guarantee that he will return to doing so when a new manager is appointed.
"It becomes quite difficult for everybody, but this is why we're involved in the coaching side because we want to do it, and we want to make sure that nobody misses out," he said.
"You have to take care of the schoolboys who are coming through, you have to take care of the Under-18s, the Under-21s, because every day they miss a chance to play and train, they miss a chance to practice and become better."
"The other thing that people tend to forget: they always tend to think that whatever team it is, it's Aston Villa first team. Well it's not, it's Aston Villa Football Club" Nail on head! This is bigger than just the first team.
God I hope this club can be pulled together and this unholy mess rectified in the not too distant future!
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let's get back to serious matters - who else can we shoehorn into the dugout with Michelle Dockery and Helen George?
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and Remi might be even better for our young players as he will make sure they are developing into better players. Kevin don't burn your bridge before knowing who is your next boss.
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Have to say seeing Kev after the game yesterday he seems really hurt at the state the clubs in. Make no mistake, this man has a huge depth of feeling for the club. If more people felt that way, things would be so much better.
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might well be true but he can't manage - that side the other night was more conservative than Cameron at the party conference