Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Nastylee on September 13, 2015, 10:20:21 PM
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At the start of the season I watched our first few games and felt the fitness levels were poor. We started well but ran out of steam (United springs to mind) and were unable to press in the second half. I put this down to early season cobwebs and the fact that a number of players had come from abroad where their regimes might not be as stern. However, given we are almost midway through September, I think it's starting to become a concern. Second half today was pathetic as we all know but we looked completely shot and unable to compete during the last twenty minutes and were chasing shadows. Is it just me or is anyone else seeing the same?
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Yep. It's not just a few either it's the majority of them. Richards looks like the only one with legs after an hour of the match.
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Yes absolutely. It's mid September and we still have the look of mid July pre season fitness levels.
I appreciate we have a lot of new players from leagues where the physical demands arn't as strong but it really worries me as its been an issue for ages now.
Sanchez still looks not PL match fit and he's no excuse. This and dumb substitutions cost us today and it's not the first time for either.
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I think we probably wore ourselves out today by not being able to keep hold of the ball in the second half and therefore having to chase Mahrez and co around the pitch. Sanchez has never looked capable of lasting 90 minutes to me and Gabby, Grealish and Gil were all recntly recovered from knocks so probably were lacking match fitness. Bacuna's the worry for me.
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Everyone knows that you use a lot less energy when you've got the ball as opposed to when you're chasing it. Maybe if we held onto the fucker long enough we may not be blowing out of our collective arses after an hour.
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Fitness has been a problem for us for years. Dunno what it is.
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Everyone knows that you use a lot less energy when you've got the ball as opposed to when you're chasing it. Maybe if we held onto the fucker long enough we may not be blowing out of our collective arses after an hour.
Gabby, Ayew and Gestede aren't exactly ideal for holding the ball up. As a trio they are just too wasteful and put a lot of pressure on the midfield.
Thought Gabby was pretty good today though. Still can't trap a ball but made some great runs and could've gone home with a few assists.
Don't know what Kozak did to Sherwood but it must've been pretty bad.
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You just can't tell what it could be. Certainly the lack of stamina is there to see but it is not only about training. Diet, sleep, lifestyle and generally looking after your physical condition all come into it. You can run round BH until your legs drop off but it will not do you any good if you are pigging out on junk food, smoking cigarettes and staying out all night at a nightclub. I always like northern European players because they get the whole thing of taking care of themselves.
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Didn't TS bring in a team of staff to deal with the lifestyle and diet last season? Pretty sure the only way to build stamina and fitness is running and gym work? The only other thing I could point to is game management so the players are able to recover during the game rather than high tempo for 90 minutes...well, for as long as they can last.
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We have some excellent training facilities where fitness and stamina are easily monitored ,are the results they provide not being acted upon ? or maybe certain players are being given playing time over the 90 mins getting up to speed regardless of the match situation.
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I think it purely style of play. The midfield unit needs fresh legs on the hour each week quite simply to be able to carry it through. It was the same under O'Neill, even John Thuggy commented on it after a game against them. This high tempo pressing is fine if you manage it in the game. Sherwood morphs into some sort of idiot when the players step onto the pitch.
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I am not so convinced that gym work and running are the simple way to build stamina. Bulk and muscle play a very important part in staying power. I was amazed at one of the pre season games, I can't recall if it was Walsall or Forest when Sanchez took off his shirt he looked to have put on a stone of upper body muscle since last season. Players who can run and run for 90 minutes have the build of George Boateng not Carl Froch. I suppose what I am saying is that it ain't the amount of training you do but what the training regime consists of that builds your stamina. Perhaps we need a specialist stamina trainer. Birchfield have probably got one we can borrow.
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I think Brian that the gym work is about pumping ego - I think many footballers want the body perfect as part of the overall package which includes the millionaire lifestyle. When you consider the likes of Des Bremner and Frank Carrodus although hardly Charles Atlas could probably out run most of today's Premier League players. When you also consider that footballers today play, week in, week out ,on pitches that resemble bowling greens and that major apoplexy is caused if they have to play more than once a week it leads to the conclusion that players pre Premier League were a lot fitter.
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Wasn't the fitness levels one of the things that Sherwood highlighted when he arrived?
I agree on what quite a few have said already, winning or losing he needs to use his midfield options fully to either kill a game off or increase the tempo further.
For me, yesterday's substitutions was born out of pure arrogance and being caught up in the 'ole' frenzy coming down from the supporters.
Who does he think we are...Barcelona?
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Not buying it. Thing is when you're two nil up as late into a game as were yesterday fitness doesn't come into it. Its all about focusing, not giving the ball away in silly errors, and keeping tight at the back. From 2-0 up we should have been able to play an effective counter attacking game but partly because Sherwood taking the likes of Gil and Gabby off we didn't do that.
Fitness has almost nothing to do with it.
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Don't agree I am afraid. When fatigue kicks in technique falters and mistake inevitably happen.
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Don't agree I am afraid. When fatigue kicks in technique falters and mistake inevitably happen.
But look at it the other way. We don't have a very experienced side and the team bar a few are compleley different from last season. I think it take s time for players to gel, and for young players or players who have not played in England to adapt. To me we seem to be making a lot of the same mistakes as last season, and very little of that is down to fitness IMO.
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As a small footnote on how fit top level footballers are, we were at Stansted Airport once getting off the shuttle bus. Jamie Carragher was on the bus and helped some old ladies with their large suitcases. I cheekily patted him on the back for being so kind. It was like patting a bronze statue.
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I think Brian that the gym work is about pumping ego - I think many footballers want the body perfect as part of the overall package which includes the millionaire lifestyle. When you consider the likes of Des Bremner and Frank Carrodus although hardly Charles Atlas could probably out run most of today's Premier League players. When you also consider that footballers today play, week in, week out ,on pitches that resemble bowling greens and that major apoplexy is caused if they have to play more than once a week it leads to the conclusion that players pre Premier League were a lot fitter.
When I read Brian's post about stamina and Sanchez I thought exactly of Frank and Des with their skeleton upper torso! Players these days are obsessed with Puerto Banus culture!
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I think Brian that the gym work is about pumping ego - I think many footballers want the body perfect as part of the overall package which includes the millionaire lifestyle. When you consider the likes of Des Bremner and Frank Carrodus although hardly Charles Atlas could probably out run most of today's Premier League players. When you also consider that footballers today play, week in, week out ,on pitches that resemble bowling greens and that major apoplexy is caused if they have to play more than once a week it leads to the conclusion that players pre Premier League were a lot fitter.
Definately Carrodus, I think he did 21 miles of the Birmingham Marathon in a pair of dunlop green flash and had to be told to stop by one of the club staff
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I think anyone who thinks players of the past were fitter is looking through rose tinted spectacles. Diets, training regimes, professionalism of facilities etc have all improved substantially, and in every measurable sport performances are factually better than they were 30 years ago.
If anything I think the problem with the premier league is it prioritises fitness and stamina ahead of technique too much (arguably in the 70s and 80s it was physical hardness at the expense of technique but that's another debate)
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I agree. 30 years ago we had footballers. Today we have footballers who are athletes with some of those being far more athletic than others.
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As these pages will testify I know little about football. I do know a little bit about horse racing and there was a similar lengthy debate in that sport about whether contemporary horses are fitter and faster than ones in the past. The perceived wisdom that breeding and diet and improved training techniques were bound to make today's horses stronger and quicker was blown away by a massive Jockey Club analysis of race times over the last half century. The figures show that longer races involving stamina have got slower and shorter races based on flat out speed have got quicker.
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I don’t think bulk has anything to do with your ability to have high levels of stamina. Dagg and Habana are north of 15 stone, yet both are rapid and can run and run and run and run.
Lomu weighed in excess of 18 stone and could do 100 metres in 10 seconds.
Physical tiredness will effect decision making and reactions, but its inexplicable to link that to the calamitous goals we’ve conceded thus far.
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Two weeks ago I would have disagreed with you Ads but after watching the Vuelta (Tour of Spain) in which the previously almost unknown bike rider Tom Dumoulin held onto the leader's Jersey to the last day of the tour against climbers half his size and bulk was an eye opener. Heart and lung size are a significant factor in equine sprinters. Unlike Carrodus or Lomu we can cut them up and take a look.
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Fitness is not just a physical thing, it is also a mental factor and I honestly think that at times the "Oh we've fucked it again" mindset of a lot of the Villa players and there were quite a few yesterday who played last season, puts an extra 10 pounds onto the weight of their legs and towards the end of a game, time after time it shows in their decision making.
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Players are much bigger, fitter and stronger now than in the past. If you disagree, point me in the direction of a Paul Gascoigne-type physique in the modern game.
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Spot on Kuwait. A horse gets the same existence if it first or second in the Gold Cup at Ascot. It sees out the race without comprehension of what is at stake. A man will drive himself beyond fatigue like we did at Wembley against Liverpool or the opposite as we did against Arsenal at Wembley.
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There is one Dave, he played for Boro last year and now I believe he has gone to0 one of the promoted teams, cant for the life of me remember his name, is it Lee something, he makes Gascoigne look like twiggy
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There is one Dave, he played for Boro last year and now I believe he has gone to0 one of the promoted teams, cant for the life of me remember his name, is it Lee something, he makes Gascoigne look like twiggy
Lee Tomlin. He can play, though I suppose you'd better if you turn up looking like that.
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I think Brian that the gym work is about pumping ego - I think many footballers want the body perfect as part of the overall package which includes the millionaire lifestyle. When you consider the likes of Des Bremner and Frank Carrodus although hardly Charles Atlas could probably out run most of today's Premier League players. When you also consider that footballers today play, week in, week out ,on pitches that resemble bowling greens and that major apoplexy is caused if they have to play more than once a week it leads to the conclusion that players pre Premier League were a lot fitter.
Spot on.
There are a few exceptions to the rule but there seems far too many players obsessed with 6 pack selfies.
James Milner is probably a good example of the build that can produce 90 minutes of fitness for a football match. He probably does have a six pack but it isint something that he is trying to actively achieve, more a by product of his normal fitness regime.
Its the difference between Body Builder's and weight lifter's, While Body builder's have strength there main focus is how the body looks.
I know a players fitness is largely governed by the Club and trainers, but we only have to look at how Gabby bulked up to see how this can effected.
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With the exception of Goalkeepers I'd imagine most outfield players have a six pack. Not body builder bulging but defined without any fat covering. Considering all upper body strength comes from the core this would be worked on at length pre-season. James Milner would have one too.
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Your 6 pack is determined by your fat ratio. I would imagine most footballers have them.
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I've seen us lose more games over the last 4 years because the opposition had more in the tank than we did in the final 30 minutes, than the other way round. That's a worry to me. Now in part it may not purely be fitness. We spent a lot of time under Lamberk not keeping the ball and chasing shadows, which inevitably leads to exhaustion, but I don't think we have the stamina some other clubs seem to. It's a problem. Signing some players like Cole and Richardson haven't helped matters. Players who can't perform for 90 minutes. Hopefully Sherwoods signings will make us a fitter side in the long run. Thus far though, we've lost out largely because our legs have gone in the last 3 games.
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I think Brian that the gym work is about pumping ego - I think many footballers want the body perfect as part of the overall package which includes the millionaire lifestyle. When you consider the likes of Des Bremner and Frank Carrodus although hardly Charles Atlas could probably out run most of today's Premier League players. When you also consider that footballers today play, week in, week out ,on pitches that resemble bowling greens and that major apoplexy is caused if they have to play more than once a week it leads to the conclusion that players pre Premier League were a lot fitter.
No they weren't.
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Another problem is players don't have the stamina to play 90 minutes let alone 120 minutes in cup game with extra time. Increased fitness and faster football means our players work harder than players over a decade ago. I do think we need to look at our playing style and tactics and we need to change it to make it easier on our players and make the ball do more work. Who is responsible for players fitness at Villa Park ? Perhaps we need to change it.
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As these pages will testify I know little about football. I do know a little bit about horse racing and there was a similar lengthy debate in that sport about whether contemporary horses are fitter and faster than ones in the past. The perceived wisdom that breeding and diet and improved training techniques were bound to make today's horses stronger and quicker was blown away by a massive Jockey Club analysis of race times over the last half century. The figures show that longer races involving stamina have got slower and shorter races based on flat out speed have got quicker.
I think you were closer to the mark in one of your earlier posts, when you alluded to the fact that muscle bulk improves power and speed. Stamina athletes are slight and lithe.
To play in the premiership these days you have to be lightening quick and maybe that's achieved at the expense of stamina, which in turn reinforces the belief that it's increasingly a squad game.
Another related point in which you're spot on about, is that technique goes when you're fatigued. The interesting thing though is that it's the decision making/brain function which goes before the legs - something we see in Sanchez's misplaced on the hour mark with alarming regularity.
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I had the privilege of sharing an office for a number of years with Ron Pickering. He told me that if a person was staved to the point of death, the very first energy from the very first food fed to that person would go to the brain. Survival of the human species required our ancestors to outwit a sabre tooth tiger not to out run or out jump it.
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With the exception of Goalkeepers I'd imagine most outfield players have a six pack. Not body builder bulging but defined without any fat covering. Considering all upper body strength comes from the core this would be worked on at length pre-season. James Milner would have one too.
Your 6 pack is determined by your fat ratio. I would imagine most footballers have them.
My point wasn't really whether players actually have a six pack or not but the emphasis on a wide range of players obsession with looks over physical performance.
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I reckon our fitness levels went down when Keane left the backroom.
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I reckon our fitness levels went down when Keane left the backroom.
Please, do elaborate.....
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Players are much bigger, fitter and stronger now than in the past. If you disagree, point me in the direction of a Paul Gascoigne-type physique in the modern game.
Wayne Rooney ?
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I reckon our fitness levels went down when Keane left the backroom.
Please, do elaborate.....
Because it did.
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I was saying this yesterday, I really can't understand why Sanchez is fucked after an hour? He never seems to be tired for his country and he should be able to complete 90 minutes, If not then why not?
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Think Sanchez was playing in the Copa whatsitsname all summer, then had only a couple of weeks off before coming back as the season had started and then last week was flying back and forth across the atlantic as well as playing a couple of times. Don't think he has had any time to really get over last season and then do some basic conditioning work uninterupted by matches.
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Players are much bigger, fitter and stronger now than in the past. If you disagree, point me in the direction of a Paul Gascoigne-type physique in the modern game.
Wayne Rooney ?
Definitely Rooney but you could also add Carlos Tevez, Ilkay Gundogan, Ade Akinfenwa and this chap:
(http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article9954845.ece/binary/original/Steve-McNulty.jpg)
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I walked past the guy who took a picture of those hideous scarfs on Sunday for that Tweet.
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Players are 10x fitter now than in the past and it is not even close
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I had the privilege of sharing an office for a number of years with Ron Pickering. He told me that if a person was staved to the point of death, the very first energy from the very first food fed to that person would go to the brain. Survival of the human species required our ancestors to outwit a sabre tooth tiger not to out run or out jump it.
The brain's only energy source is glucose. Other tissues can, in the short term and when under stress, use other energy substrates. That's why the first signs of glucose deficiency affect the brain and why, as you say, the brain gets priority when fed.
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The brain's only energy source is glucose. Other tissues can, in the short term and when under stress, use other energy substrates. That's why the first signs of glucose deficiency affect the brain and why, as you say, the brain gets priority when fed.
That's not true, the brain can, and does, utilize ketone bodies (up to 70%) to replace glucose during fasting or low-carb situations. Some glucose is always required, but it is not the only energy source.
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The brain's only energy source is glucose. Other tissues can, in the short term and when under stress, use other energy substrates. That's why the first signs of glucose deficiency affect the brain and why, as you say, the brain gets priority when fed.
That's not true, the brain can, and does, utilize ketone bodies (up to 70%) to replace glucose during fasting or low-carb situations. Some glucose is always required, but it is not the only energy source.
True (and apologies) - I should have said glucose is the preferred source.
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I reckon our fitness levels went down when Keane left the backroom.
Please, do elaborate.....
Because it did.
Not really elaborating is it?
Any players look worse than others for fitness after Keane left?
Any particular games you thought we really looked tired?
What do you think RK brought to the table that we clearly missed when he left?
Just interested......
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Thank you CT and oldhill. I love H and V when so much can be learned from so many people. Without being flippant perhaps somebody should ensure Sanchez gets a big drink of Lucozade on the hour Mark, smuggled on in a sponge if necessary.
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Thank you CT and oldhill. I love H and V when so much can be learned from so many people. Without being flippant perhaps somebody should ensure Sanchez gets a big drink of Lucozade on the hour Mark, smuggled on in a sponge if necessary.
A shot of his country's best might be better.
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Eva Carneiro: Chelsea doctor leaves after Jose Mourinho row
Chelsea doctor Eva Carneiro has decided to leave the club - six weeks after criticism from manager Jose Mourinho.
Carneiro had her role downgraded after Mourinho said his medical staff were "naive" for treating Eden Hazard during the 2-2 draw with Swansea on 8 August.
Chelsea asked Carneiro, 42, to return to work, but she has decided not to and is now considering her legal position.
The Football Association is looking into a complaint that Mourinho used abusive or sexist language towards her.
Chelsea say they do not comment on internal staffing matters.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34328940 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34328940)
Now, given our fitness is an issue and one of the top physios in football will be seeking alternative employment should we not try and get her on the AVFC staff? Especially to rub one in the eye of Jose?
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I would give her a shot in the job as well. Don't know how good is our current Doctor though.
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I hope we don't descend into sexism. But I would give her the job based solely on her looks. Actually, no I wouldn't but I do find her rather attractive. I don't know if I do but there's something attractive about female doctor's , nurses, dentists etc etc who can mother you and be not be related to you.
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Speaking of sexism, kind of unfortunate for Mourinho that the doctor he got pissed off with was a laydey.