Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: kippaxvilla2 on September 13, 2015, 07:09:20 PM
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I tried to think of a better title.
The question really is 'why are we so awful and have been for a few years at doing tactics and doing the basics right?'
For what seems like years we have had all too often games like today. Despite the numerous and highly paid coaching and management staff, none of them have ever seemed to know how to make properly tactical substitutions, be able read and react to opposition tactical changes and more importantly do the basics right and act professionally to see out a tight game we are in control of.
Quite a few people were not surprised at the eventual outcome of today's game once the inevitable game changing goal went in with 20 minutes left. I'm sure we are not alone and it probably hasn't happened nearly as many times as we think but it is so fcukin annoying nonetheless.
Take the current management team. There's loads of them sat there. Aren't any of them, just one of them not capable of spotting the signs and acting properly to sort them out.
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I've had this theory developing over the last few weeks that our problem is all based on how we are poorly perceived by the outside world.
Want a new manager?
Villa advisor: "Let's not aim too high, they're a struggling team, nothing much going on, they're pretty solid so any young, promising, decent manager that's had a good run in the Championship could possibly improve them. Either that or let's see who's available from the sacked manager list"
Want to sell your club?
Financial advisor to Football Advisor: "So you're telling me they're not really that exciting and even at a cut price deal they're not worth the effort?"
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We should be putting our energies into finding decent coaching staff. Our squads have been so poorly drilled over the last half decade. We don't know how to be boring in the right areas, which is as important as being creative.
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We have a new back four, new manager, new fucking everything but I just knew we were going to throw that two goal lead away.
*shrugs*
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I've had this theory developing over the last few weeks that our problem is all based on how we are poorly perceived by the outside world.
Want a new manager?
Villa advisor: "Let's not aim too high, they're a struggling team, nothing much going on, they're pretty solid so any young, promising, decent manager that's had a good run in the Championship could possibly improve them. Either that or let's see who's available from the sacked manager list"
Want to sell your club?
Financial advisor to Football Advisor: "So you're telling me they're not really that exciting and even at a cut price deal they're not worth the effort?"
We don't ourselves aim high enough. Managers plucked from dog shit clubs or retirement or with no experience. We constantly tell ourselves not to bother bidding for so and so because they wouldn't come, then see much smaller clubs pull of a coup or two. We have as big a downer on us as the outside world do sometimes.
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We have a new back four, new manager, new fucking everything but I just knew we were going to throw that two goal lead away.
*shrugs*
At half time, i *knew* we'd much much worse in the second half.
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We have a new back four, new manager, new fucking everything but I just knew we were going to throw that two goal lead away.
*shrugs*
Yup. I hope paulie is still placing his usual bet. He'd be quids in after the last couple of games.
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Like in any industry it starts at the top. When the owner is not interested it filters down. Until then we will fly by the seat of our pants.
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We need a manager that can actually 'manage' this job and ideally not waste £15m+ on two traffic cones, when there was a ready made replacement available.
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To my regret I watched this in the pub as like Paulie I would still be lumping on Leicester at 2-0 just as insurance, I imagine their odds to win at 2-0 would've been ridiculous but then betting compilers don't know what a ridiculous club we are.
It's actually a good topic by Kippax.
Think about it, we change managers, we spend god knows how much on new first 11s every few years, think about all the different defensive combinations we've had in the last 5 years alone and still we bottle leads, still we rarely win on TV, still we can't even get up to mid table mediocrity.
My theory last season was yes we were abysmal under Lambert, embarrasingly so but changing the manager would only be cosmetic as the big problem is we need fresh ownership with fresh ideas.
Luckily Sherwood provided that short term fix and I'd much rather have him than Lambert but it just seems we're going round in circles each season now.
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Obviously I don't follow other teams fortunes as closely, but there can't be many others that excel in buckling under a bit of pressure and throw games away with the frequency we do, no matter the personnel or manager. How often do we mount a stirring comeback with a late winner and the crowd scaring the shit out of the opposition?
Maybe we do manage it more than I think, I'm just more comfortable wallowing for now.
What's worse of all is that games like these are enough to piss you off to the extent that more rational family/friends/partner around you are best off not in your company for a couple of hours afterwards.
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We have a new back four, new manager, new fucking everything but I just knew we were going to throw that two goal lead away.
*shrugs*
this.
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I've had this theory developing over the last few weeks that our problem is all based on how we are poorly perceived by the outside world.
Want a new manager?
Villa advisor: "Let's not aim too high, they're a struggling team, nothing much going on, they're pretty solid so any young, promising, decent manager that's had a good run in the Championship could possibly improve them. Either that or let's see who's available from the sacked manager list"
Want to sell your club?
Financial advisor to Football Advisor: "So you're telling me they're not really that exciting and even at a cut price deal they're not worth the effort?"
We don't ourselves aim high enough. Managers plucked from dog shit clubs or retirement or with no experience. We constantly tell ourselves not to bother bidding for so and so because they wouldn't come, then see much smaller clubs pull of a coup or two. We have as big a downer on us as the outside world do sometimes.
It's a strange one because we do pay them huge salaries.
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How many fans say this about their teams? It's not just us, it's probably about 90% of teams.
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Excellent topic, it isn't just me then, but of course I knew that already. Do other teams do the same as often as we do? I'm sure there are clubs out there whose fans think the same but it's difficult right now to think who they might be. Maybe it's just what you get when you pay the sort of middling prices we do for players? Half a game's worth of professionalism and commitment. But then how do other clubs manage to not be like us on the same budget? I'm inclined to agree with Steffo, just how scared would you be if you had to answer to Randy Learner ultimately? I certainly wouldn't. But I don't really know the answer and I'm utterly fed up with the whole charade. We really are pathetic most of the time.
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I was going to edit my original post but to further sum it up. If the opposition are 2-0 up against Villa I never have any confidence we can pull it back (Crewe doesn't count). If we are 2-0 up I never have any confidence we can see it out.
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It was interesting to hear Chelsea fans bleat on about Mourinho yesterday, so no, I don't think it's just us. But we've made a habit of it, which is horrible really. The amount of pointless emotion wasted on a team who do just about enough to survive each season despite inherent incompetence depresses me. If I could force myself to look away I would.
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How many fans say this about their teams? It's not just us, it's probably about 90% of teams.
I bet Sunderland do. They must have been through about eight managers and half a dozen new teams and everything seems the same as it always is.
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Failure is considered ok at Villa.
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Thing that gets me is get to March and we'll start winning games, seeing out wins in professional manners and generally looking a reasonable team. It happened last season and in Lambert's first.
It's like a lightbulb suddenly switches on in the players heads like we're about to relegate this club so we maybe should start playing properly whereas if they'd bother doing it a few months earlier they could have the cigars out already.
The biggest problem is the ownership and lack of direction imo, it all stems from the top and regrettable another summer has passed without a takeover.
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A losing mentality has a grip on the whole club. TS has said this himself, but I'm not sure how we are going to shake it off with an unproven and inexperienced squad.
We just can't do the basics right - Bacuna and Lescott trying to play it out with two men on their backs, Guzan throwing it out quickly when we should be time-wasting, Sanchez and Amavi conceding possession when a simple pass is required.
I was watching Leicester today in the last 20 minutes and they fought like their lives depended on it. I haven't seen a Villa side put a shift in like that for years.
Not very clever going into two local derbies on the back off that result.
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The thing is you just know that next weeks dilemma (another trait of recent years) is that Smethwick will park the bus and we will struggle to break them down and may well concede a shit, sloppy, or jammy goal in the process.
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Maybe it's to do with the quality of the players we have in the squad now as much as management tactics and coaching. Think of the players we've lost since oneill left. Barry, young, Milner. However exciting this summer's transfer business was, none of those players were ever properly replaced with players of equivalent or better quality. I'm sure there are others I've forgotten, but when you factor in losing benteke aswell, we just don't have the quality we once had, in my view.
To me it looked like it was starting to come together with houllier and Mcallister - remember the 9th placed finish that season. I think we may have kicked on if they'd have stayed on. I'd have had Mcallister as manager with houllier in the dof role. Since then though, it's been one shit manager after another and an exodus of decent players who haven't been adequately replaced. I think we are where we deserve to be.
Still think we'll come good this season and finish top half, but it's going to be a battle.
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Not very clever going into two local derbies on the back off that result.
Chances of winning all 3 was always going to be unlikely, so going in to the Baggies game with the players having to prove themselves and making up for the todays result may actually work in our favour. They should also be aware that this is a local derby and need to apply themselves for the full 90 minutes. No fuck ups. No excuses.
The thing is you just know that next weeks dilemma (another trait of recent years) is that Smethwick will park the bus and we will struggle to break them down and may well concede a shit, sloppy, or jammy goal in the process.
We know thats what they will do, and we know they'll try to score on the counter or from a set piece. We'll have at least 60% possession and we should be able to break them down with our pass and move football. Its our ability to convert chances that concerns me, however if Traore is fit then I'm pretty confident it will be a comfortable win.
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Not very clever going into two local derbies on the back off that result.
Chances of winning all 3 was always going to be unlikely, so going in to the Baggies game with the players having to prove themselves and making up for the todays result may actually work in our favour. They should also be aware that this is a local derby and need to apply themselves for the full 90 minutes. No fuck ups. No excuses.
The thing is you just know that next weeks dilemma (another trait of recent years) is that Smethwick will park the bus and we will struggle to break them down and may well concede a shit, sloppy, or jammy goal in the process.
We know thats what they will do, and we know they'll try to score on the counter or from a set piece. We'll have at least 60% possession and we should be able to break them down with our pass and move football. Its our ability to convert chances that concerns me, however if Traore is fit then I'm pretty confident it will be a comfortable win.
For me, Gana is the key player to be fit for the weekend. If he'd played yesterday, I think we'd have won. Westwood doesn't do enough for me. Also, when Okore is fit, play him at Right Back - he got the pace and power to play their and is an upgrade on Hutton and certainly miles better than Bacuna.
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I was going to edit my original post but to further sum it up. If the opposition are 2-0 up against Villa I never have any confidence we can pull it back (Crewe doesn't count). If we are 2-0 up I never have any confidence we can see it out.
This is so true. Is it just natural pessimism of a football fan or are we genuinely worse than other teams at this? It feels like the latter to me.
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People bang on about the ownership. This has nothing to do with the ownership. It has to do with the Sherwood, the coaches and the team they have assembled for £50m plus. Randy didn't lose us the game form a 2-0 winning position yesterday, the ****** on the field and in the dug out did that.
Fair play to Leicester and their fans though, you hardly ever see that sort of atmosphere at VP, other than major Derby days. Their fans played a major part in the result which is something at home we very rarely do. We just take the piss out of those that try to and laugh when they get kicked out.
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Excellent topic. It has been like this all the time I have been on the Holte. Except for two periods and I will come to them anon, we have been run like a parish church or a residents association or an amateur dramatic and music society. Everybody well meaning and dashing about a lot but fundamentally amateurish and easily roused to role defence. Of course we engage professional managers and coaches and trainers but we shop in Argos and are motivated by value for money. The nettle we have never seized is that football clubs cannot be run like conventional businesses. A conventional business produces a yearly balance sheet and is judged accordingly. A football club is judged once, sometimes twice a week. That requires management skills of the highest order not adequacy.
The two exceptions which have bucked the trend in my time are the periods of Ron Saunders and of SGT1. There was an iron self belief that ran through the team into the club and out onto the terraces. If MON had not put himself first before the club his could have been a third period of self belief but it was not to be and he flounced out counting his money.
The first faint traces of the writing on TS's wall came to me from an odd source. It was when the club used him via the VP screens to bollock the fans for running on the pitch after the Olbyun game. At least 98% of us were booing the pitch invaders and shouting for them to stop yet we were all treated like naughty children being told off by teacher. I thought, hang on, he has been here a couple of weeks and the club is using him as a means to improve crowd behaviour. Doesn't he have enough to do improving playing standards?
Therein for me lies the thread of weakness marbling through our later history. No fancy stuff, no PR, no BS just the best people you can afford doing the simple basics to as high a professional standard as possible.
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There are two simple answers for me.
First we have become a selling club post-MON days which would be fine if we were able to replace the players going out with players just as good, but we haven't and in some cases we have not replaced them at all. Until this summer we've been run on a very tight budget the last few years, not saying that's a bad thing, but in reality it was always going to play a part in where we find ourselves.
The other main factor is that we have relied too heavily on youth (you could extend that to the current manager too) and while we've waited for that youth to mature we've struggled as a result of their mistakes, and sadly only a select few have developed enough to make the gamble worth while.
Some of those basic issues are still there this season, but then it is a whole new team and Sherwood is still learning as a manager and there is no point in going back so we have to give them the season and see where we are after that.
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I think a big chunk of the problem is our insistence on hiring British managers and coaches, and usually mediocre or inexperienced ones at that. They are, almost without exception, tactically lacking compared to foreign counterparts. Our most successful recent manager, O'Neill was much lauded by sections of the UK media, yet was a dinosaur in terms of tactics and playing style. Houllier showed promise and I felt it was a shame he couldn't continue. Sherwood is so bad he is even being out thought by the likes of Pardew. Lambert was so bad that a corner was as good as a goal for the opposition, and he put 6 up front against Bradford. McLeish with Hutton and Heskey as wingers away at Spurs says it all. I mean these guys are paid millions to come up with this garbage. And yet they all seem to be as thick as two short planks. But we continue to throw money at them.
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I think a big chunk of the problem is our insistence on hiring British managers and coaches, and usually mediocre or inexperienced ones at that. They are, almost without exception, tactically lacking compared to foreign counterparts. Our most successful recent manager, O'Neill was much lauded by sections of the UK media, yet was a dinosaur in terms of tactics and playing style. Houllier showed promise and I felt it was a shame he couldn't continue. Sherwood is so bad he is even being out thought by the likes of Pardew. Lambert was so bad that a corner was as good as a goal for the opposition, and he put 6 up front against Bradford. McLeish with Hutton and Heskey as wingers away at Spurs says it all. I mean these guys are paid millions to come up with this garbage. And yet they all seem to be as thick as two short planks. But we continue to throw money at them.
Well I don't really agree with you on MON and certainly not on Houllier but the point I would make is that its easy to be smart after the event. When we appointed Lambert none of us had any idea that his reign was going to be such a nightmare, and the majority of Villa supporters at the time felt like we had the ideal manager giving the budget he would have to work with, and that the club needed a fresh young manager to rebuild the team. It just turns out than Lambert isn't that fresh young manager. Its maybe the reverse now where we actually need a more experience manager like say an Allardynce to steady the ship and get us competing again.
But we've gone with Sherwood now, he has spent the money so we have to back him until the end of the season, and if things are no better then make a change. And on a side note I've always rated Padrew as a manager and he is now showing Newcastle fans what they are missing...
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I think a big chunk of the problem is our insistence on hiring British managers and coaches, and usually mediocre or inexperienced ones at that. They are, almost without exception, tactically lacking compared to foreign counterparts. Our most successful recent manager, O'Neill was much lauded by sections of the UK media, yet was a dinosaur in terms of tactics and playing style. Houllier showed promise and I felt it was a shame he couldn't continue. Sherwood is so bad he is even being out thought by the likes of Pardew. Lambert was so bad that a corner was as good as a goal for the opposition, and he put 6 up front against Bradford. McLeish with Hutton and Heskey as wingers away at Spurs says it all. I mean these guys are paid millions to come up with this garbage. And yet they all seem to be as thick as two short planks. But we continue to throw money at them.
Well I don't really agree with you on MON and certainly not on Houllier but the point I would make is that its easy to be smart after the event. When we appointed Lambert none of us had any idea that his reign was going to be such a nightmare, and the majority of Villa supporters at the time felt like we had the ideal manager giving the budget he would have to work with, and that the club needed a fresh young manager to rebuild the team. It just turns out than Lambert isn't that fresh young manager. Its maybe the reverse now where we actually need a more experience manager like say an Allardynce to steady the ship and get us competing again.
But we've gone with Sherwood now, he has spent the money so we have to back him until the end of the season, and if things are no better then make a change. And on a side note I've always rated Padrew as a manager and he is now showing Newcastle fans what they are missing...
I'm not alone in thinking O'Neill was a tactical dinosaur when he was with us, not after the event. Sure he achieved 6th place three times, but he spent a massive amount of money to achieve that and I don't think was that difficult at the time, given his budget, and the mediocrity of the PL below the big four or five. His record in Europe showed up his poor tactical nous. If that didn't convince you, then his time at Sunderland displayed his many shortcomings for all to see. Houllier, for all his PR gaffes, was taking us in the right direction and we were playing some nice stuff towards the end of that season. I was open minded but unconvinced by Lambert when we went for him, same as when we went for Sherwood. Both times (again not after the event) I advocated seeking out a foreign coach who knew the tactical game. That's not to say they always work out(e.g. Villas-Boas, De Canio) but they often do. Pardew is one of the better British managers but that's not saying much. I'm not sure why you would think Allardyce is the answer to a lack of tactical nous and flexibility.
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In fairness we have some good people on the backroom staff. However, it's a waste of time if Sherwood isn't prepared to listen to them when they try to advise him.
I can't for one minute believe that they were all in agreement with his subs yesterday.
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We have a new back four, new manager, new fucking everything but I just knew we were going to throw that two goal lead away.
*shrugs*
this.
When our second went in, I was looking at the odds for a Leicester win (40/1) and us not winning (8/1). My biggest regret is not backing either, as it was so obvious.
There in a nutshell is my life as a Villa fan.
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There are a lot of reasons but for my money the major factor is manager appointments. Look at the clubs around us and you see how easy it is to get either an experienced name from world football (ranieri, koeman, advocaat) or somebody who has done the job in the premier league but become unfairly maligned (pardew, Hughes, fat Sam).
You could argue houllier was in the first category and I believe that was the last time we seemed to be moving forward with any kind of coherent plan, but that was ill fated for its own reasons. Since then we have avoided both these proven routes and gone for 'bold', 'will make for a good story if it works' type options, from decent club man to brass balled manager of local rivals to unpredictable new talent. Why? Our idealistic American owners? An aversion to bringing in large egos who might question the status quo and refuse to work with unrealistic budgets (surely debunked by the TS appointment)? A collective will to avoid the obvious?
I haven't written TS off yet, far from it, but yesterday, how we could have done with a 'proper' manager to see out the game.
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For some reason the thread title put me in mind of Human Nature by Gary Clail (a hit in the early 90s for Gary Clail for the benefit of our younger viewers) and similar to the song, I can only conclude, there's something wrong with Aston Villa.
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People bang on about the ownership. This has nothing to do with the ownership. It has to do with the Sherwood, the coaches and the team they have assembled for £50m plus. Randy didn't lose us the game form a 2-0 winning position yesterday, the c***s on the field and in the dug out did that.
Fair play to Leicester and their fans though, you hardly ever see that sort of atmosphere at VP, other than major Derby days. Their fans played a major part in the result which is something at home we very rarely do. We just take the piss out of those that try to and laugh when they get kicked out.
We rarely ever come back from 2-0 down to win in the last 20 minutes. That's why you saw a good atmosphere at the end. For the other hour or so they weren't noisy at all.
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I completely agree aj2k77...we weren't singing "is this a library?" for no reason.
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I completely agree aj2k77...we weren't singing "is this a library?" for no reason.
Correct. Yesterday's opponents are more than welcome to their committee driven atmosphere of flags, cheer sticks and Kasabian.
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I stand corrected. Apparently that was the first time we have let a two goal slip since 2012 which I find hard to believe.