Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Villa Memories => Topic started by: Tom_Mc9? on July 14, 2015, 08:44:31 AM
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So you've got the following:
Big Ron (one League Cup win)
Brian Little (one League Cup win)
John Gregory (FA Cup finalist)
David O'Leary (sugarbag)
Martin O'Neill (League Cup final/three sixth place finishes/ruined the club?)
Gerard Houllier (hot and cold, unfortunately ill)
Alex McLeish (sexy football)
Paul Lambert (we were excellent)
(Tim Sherwood) - probably a bit too soon to put him in there.
Edit: I realise I missed out Sir Graham! Maybe I didn't want his legacy spoilt.
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Big Ron
Brian Little
Martin O'Neill
John Gregory
Gerard Houllier
Paul Lambert
Alex McLeish
David O'F*cking Leary
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Brian Little
Big Ron
Martin O'Neill
Graham Taylor
John Gregory
Gerard Houllier
David O'Leary
Tim Sherwood
Paul Lambert
Alex Mcleish
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Big Ron
Little
Gregory
MON
O'Leary
Taylor
Houllier
Mcleish
Lambert
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Big Ron - that football from the 1992-93 was some of the best ever seen at VP - I'm still
anguishing from that Coventry game (AAAAAAAAARGGHHH) Plus a League Cup
Brian Little - some superb football in 1995-96 and a League Cup/FA Cup Semi - should've
been the start of bigger and better things for us
Martin O'Neill - again promise not completely fulfilled
John Gregory/
Graham Taylor
Gerrard Houlier - did we really finish 9th in 2010-11 ?
Paul Lambert - Popular choice when appointed but nearly 3 years of dour football
Alex McCleish - I actually thought he may be ok - but seemed happy to lose 1-0
David O'Leary - Although a decent first season - this wasn't one of Doug's better choices
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Big Ron/Little. Cant separate them, loved them both. Little's team for two seasons felt like it could climb the toughest mountain while BFR's team at its best was simply sublime.
MON.
Gregory
O'Leary
Taylor
Houllier
McCleish
Lambert.
Lambert is by far the worst manager we've had since I've been a fan. Every week it felt we had reached the depths of ineptitude and then along came the next......
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Joint Winners
Big Ron - gave us a profile and a long awaited trophy. Played some great fucking
football. Went awry towards the end.
Brian Little - lower profile, another trophy. Played some great fucking football. Went awry towards the end.
7.5/10 but 6 months before they went would both have been sitting on a higher mark
Martin O'Neill - big profile. Played some decent football. Always had a chance in every game. Went awry towards the end and we never recovered.
5.5/10 should have done much more with the resources at hand.
John Gregory - similar to O'Neill but the football was turgid. We could knock over crap but rolled over in too many big games
5.5/10 should have done more with the resources at hand.
The FickleCunt Poor first few months followed by a very calendar year (2004). As good as it got and the downward spiral nearly ended with us relegated. More punchable than practically anyone ever associated with Villa by talking the club down, and bearing in mind some of the competition a remarkable feat.
4.5/10 less resources than others but should have done better 05-06.
Taylor - inherited a bloated though still decent enough for a comfortable mid table finish. Added with buys which didn't come off, a man well past his time at this level and we were not far off relegated.
3.5/10
Houllier - inherited a bloated though still decent enough for a Top 8 finish. Decided to attempt to match O'Leary in the unpopularity stakes, with players and (some) fans alike. Like Taylor, on a paper an experienced steadying influence whereas the reality well further past his sell by date than wartime can of spam. In a relegation battle until the last couple of games which was utterly shameful based on the quality in the squad.
3.0/10
Lambert - inherited a total mess and proceeded to make many unwanted records. Saved from bottom by the 3 months in spring 2013 where we looked as if we had turned the corner. Clueless by the end and should have been put our of his misery after spring run of abject performances and defeats in 2014.
2.5/10
OH ECK - totally out of his depth from about a week, nay a decade before he took the job, the most turgid football ever, directly contradicting his deluded viewpoint. A relegation battle. The ROI of his signings - CNZ (£20m), Jenas (c£3m), Hutton (c£8m) until 2014 and Given (c17m) has been pitiful.
Absolutely no redeeming features to his reign - not being relegated prevents a lower score.
1.5/10
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Very good - Big Fat Ron + Brian Little
Promising but ultimately disappointing - M'ON + John Gregory
Not great - Taylor + Houllier
Absolute dog shit - O'Leary + McLeish + Lambert
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Very good - Big Fat Ron + Brian Little
Promising but ultimately disappointing - M'ON + John Gregory
Not great - Taylor + Houllier
Absolute dog shit - O'Leary + McLeish + Lambert
Can't argue with that
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Isn't there a bit of inconsistency in the theme/title of this thread, since if (as you suggest) Sky has ruined football, why are you asking folk to contribute posts that cover only the post-Sky period?
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I wouldn't say so. You can still debate the merits (or lack of) of managers throughout the period whether you think the game is enjoyable at the moment or not.
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The good
BFR
Brian Little
MON
Gregory
The not so good
Houllier/McAllister
O'Leary
SGT Mk.II
Lambert
McLeish
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McAllister? He beat Arsenal away and Liverpool at home!
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I wouldn't say so. You can still debate the merits (or lack of) of managers throughout the period whether you think the game is enjoyable at the moment or not.
Still don't get the significance or relevance of Sky.
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Oh, I was just being flippant. I meant since 1992. Don't read too much into it!
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That end of season run under Gregory when we were taking teams apart was just magical. I remember being at Goodison when we gave as good an away performance as I can recall.
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That end of season run under Gregory when we were taking teams apart was just magical. I remember being at Goodison when we gave as good an away performance as I can recall.
Sheff Weds about 3-4 games later was even better. Absolute perfection.
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That end of season run under Gregory when we were taking teams apart was just magical. I remember being at Goodison when we gave as good an away performance as I can recall.
The run in league and cup under SGT in between losing at home to QPR in the September and losing at home to Wimbledon in the February was fantastic.
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Brian Little (the best Villa team I've seen, yes one of the things I about being on this forum us that I feel young! :D)
Big Ron (Awesome attacking football, and some great players, only petted out towards the en
Martin O'Neill (Could have been even better, but got some of our best results of the modern era, and made us proper contenders)
John Gregory (The true definition of a hit and miss manager, an equal amount of great and bad moments, left at the right time)
Graham Taylor (Did well to get a top ten finish when first returning, but was a poor choice long term)
David O'Leary (Is saved from the bottom three by that one good season, just shows how bad things have gotten recently than he's not bottom)
Paul Lambert (three awful seasons, and some of the worse results in history and one of the poorest win/loss records, still there were the odd bright moment, and he did sign Benteke)
Gerard Houllier (Once a great manager, but was just so pass it by the time he came to us, was devoid of ideas, and the football was really poor)
Alex McLeish (one terrible season, but what a stinker it was! Difference between him and Lambert was than at least there were promising signs at times, none of that under Alec, deadly dull! :o)
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The good
BFR
Brian Little
MON
Gregory
The not so good
Houllier/McAllister
O'Leary
SGT Mk.II
Lambert
McLeish
I can't believe I missed out SGT Mk.I . I would have him top over BFR. From second division and in his own words a shambles to second in the league in three years.
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SGT Mark I was pre-Sky Premier League though. Don't forget football was only invented in 1993.
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I think that Houllier was beginning to get things together for us when he left. I think he was an unusual choice for Villa though.
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I think that Houllier was beginning to get things together for us when he left. I think he was an unusual choice for Villa though.
The signing of Bent was a big boast, but then I don't know if you can really call that a masterstroke. I just felt that it was the wrong timing for Houllier and us, if he had replaced Gregory for example then I think the last ten years might have been very rosey indeed for us.
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1. Ron Atkinson - Second place and a League Cup win. Good footballing teams.
2. Brian Little - League Cup win, and a good side
3. John Gregory - The last Manager we had where I genuinely thought we could win the League.
4. Martin O'Neill - Yeah, he fucked up our legacy, but it's the last time I enjoyed supporting Villa.
5. David O'Leary - Didn't like him, but he put a stop to this losing to Small Heath crap.
6. Graham Taylor - Never go back.
7. Gerard Houllier - Seemed awful at the time, but was nothing compared to what followed.
8. Paul Lambert - Only ahead of McLeish because no one could predict how bad he would be, whereas
9. Alex McLeish - Was always going to be a disaster. The living embodiment of Lerner giving up.
Too early for Sherwood, but I'd have him at Number 5 based on the FA Cup semi-final, the Albion double, and 4-0 at Sunderland.
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Very good - Big Fat Ron + Brian Little
Promising but ultimately disappointing - M'ON + John Gregory
Not great - Taylor + Houllier
Absolute dog shit - O'Leary + McLeish + Lambert
Can't argue with that
seconded
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1. Ron Atkinson - Second place and a League Cup win. Good footballing teams.
2. Brian Little - League Cup win, and a good side
3. John Gregory - The last Manager we had where I genuinely thought we could win the League.
4. Martin O'Neill - Yeah, he fucked up our legacy, but it's the last time I enjoyed supporting Villa.
5. David O'Leary - Didn't like him, but he put a stop to this losing to Small Heath crap.
6. Graham Taylor - Never go back.
7. Gerard Houllier - Seemed awful at the time, but was nothing compared to what followed.
8. Paul Lambert - Only ahead of McLeish because no one could predict how bad he would be, whereas
9. Alex McLeish - Was always going to be a disaster. The living embodiment of Lerner giving up.
Too early for Sherwood, but I'd have him at Number 5 based on the FA Cup semi-final, the Albion double, and 4-0 at Sunderland.
This is so where close to what I think, except that Gregory was just too inconsistent to be quite that high, but there were some fun times anyway. I think we actually played better Football during the Little era than under Big Ron, although the attacking talent we had under BR was more exciting maybe. Also, people forget about the 4th and 5th league placings under Little I actually think he was a bit more consistent in the league than BFR.
No, you can't put Sherwood on the board yet, he has it to prove! My guess is that if he sees out next season than he should do enough to be ranked above Lambert and McGleish, and maybe Houllier but not sure after that.
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I could never put Brian Little above Big Ron. The football we saw under him remains the best I've ever seen at Villa, even if it did peter out after the league cup final.
We had a brilliant 95/96 under Brian and played some really good football, but we never hit those heights again in 96/97 and I think there's a good chance we'd have gone down the season after if he hadn't left.
I'd put Gregory and O'Neill on a par. Both spent a lot of money, but never quite delivered what we wanted. Gregory's affection for the club nudges him just ahead though, but he got too preoccupied fighting with Ellis in the end.
Houllier had us playing some good football in fairness, but was having to work with too many players whose egos were massaged by MON. His gaffes didn't help either.
Graham Taylor was the boss when I first watched us in 89 and he did so much for us in the late 80's. Coming back was a mistake though, as his style of management didn't suit that time.
Lambert and O'Leary were big disappointments. I had good expectations of both, but ultimately I found both patronising and they alienated too many people.
McLeish I knew would be a disaster and he was, so never had much expectations for him.
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Brian Little - A cup and 4th place I think his team had a futre and wonder what would have happened if we had not signed SVC
Big Ron - A cup and 2nd place but he let the team get old with him and altohugh i was sorry to see him sacked perhaps it was due
JG/MON - Decent finishes but they spent a lot of money and not always well
Lambert - Could see what he wanted to do but it all got to much for him
Houlier - Too left field for me
TSM - Well he was a poor desiscion but i thought a likeable bloke who kept his dignity and never slagged the club/fansd off
Sir Graham - Heart ruling head on this one Did the decent thing and resigned
DOL - No respect for the club or fans and says something for the man that at a time the club were struggling he made himself more unpopular than Doug. Not worked again either.
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SGT Mark I was pre-Sky Premier League though. Don't forget football was only invented in 1993.
Quite right, if you included Ron Saunders i know where he would finish in everyones ratings but people seem
to forget the effects Vic Crowe had on our club after the shambolic but eventful year of Tommy Docherty.
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Forget my previous post just read the actual name of the thread...''Since Sky ruined football''
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Very good - Big Fat Ron + Brian Little
Promising but ultimately disappointing - M'ON + John Gregory
Not great - Taylor + Houllier
Absolute dog shit - O'Leary + McLeish + Lambert
Can't argue with that
seconded
Yeah looks about right to me too
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I can't belive DOL is not ranked worst. Never has a manager of our club shown as little respect to the club than DOL.
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I echo what others had said and would break them up into four tiers.
Atkinson/Little – played some lovely stuff under both of these, both ended up with Silverware with brilliant performances in the finals. Big Ron just edges it slightly.
Gregory/O’Neill – Both played good football (most of the time). Both didn’t get the most out of the players for the money spent. Always a player short of being a really good side.
Taylor/Houllier – Overall disappointing. Taylor was restricted to ‘make do’ signings (Kinsella, Leonhardsen etc) as money dried up. Home form was good if not overly great to watch, needed to be more resilient away from home. Houllier was a strange one. Would have liked to have seen how it would have panned out in time, as it looked like he had a plan and knew what he wanted to do. Didn’t help himself with his comments.
DOL/Scottish twins – least said the better. DOL started well with only a few new players. Was glad when he departed, was convinced we would have gone down with another season in charge. Never known anyone go out of their way to alienate themselves from the club and its supporters like how he did. McLeish – His gameplan to draw our way to safety really sucked the life out us. One season was one too much. A second would have seen us drop. Lambert – One step forwards, two steps back. Was happy with his appointment, but I have never witnessed such a poor team lacking in the basics of the game. Just when you thought a corner had been turned, things always got worse.
Anyway, stats for the managers below. Some interesting reading. Both Gregory & O’Neill average more points and scored more per game than Atkinson & Little. Slightly surprising as Gregory/O’Neill sides tended to draw too many games, especially at home.
Premier League Managers Stats
P W D L F A Pts W% D% L% F/G A/G Pts/G
Ron Atkinson 98 38 27 33 118 114 141 38.78 27.55 33.67 1.2 1.16 1.44
Brian Little 130 51 36 43 159 136 189 39.23 27.69 33.08 1.22 1.05 1.45
John Gregory 148 61 46 41 195 162 229 41.22 31.08 27.7 1.32 1.09 1.55
Graham Taylor 51 15 13 23 57 66 58 29.41 25.49 45.1 1.12 1.29 1.14
David O'Leary 114 37 34 43 135 151 145 32.46 29.82 37.72 1.18 1.32 1.27
Martin O'Neill 152 61 53 38 220 179 236 40.13 34.87 25 1.45 1.18 1.55
Gerard Houllier 28 8 9 11 36 45 33 28.57 32.14 39.29 1.29 1.61 1.18
Alex McLeish 38 7 17 14 37 53 38 18.42 44.74 36.84 0.97 1.39 1
Paul Lambert 101 25 26 50 98 164 101 24.75 25.74 49.5 0.97 1.62 1
Notes
F/G = Goals for per game. A/G = Goals against per game. Pts/G = Pts per game
Houllier’s stats doesn’t include the last 5 games when Gary Mac was in temporary charge.
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Brian for me over BFR. We were more consistent, people seem to forget we finished 5th in 97. At times we played some great stuff under Atkinson, but not this endless fantastic attacking football that seems to get mentioned. Even in 92/93 we were only the joint 8th highest scorers, even Oldham scored more. Not forgetting the 1 goal in 11 games in his first season. Or how we crap we were for the last 35 odd league games of his reign.
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Brian for me over BFR. We were more consistent, people seem to forget we finished 5th in 97. At times we played some great stuff under Atkinson, but not this endless fantastic attacking football that seems to get mentioned. Even in 92/93 we were only the joint 8th highest scorers, even Oldham scored more. Not forgetting the 1 goal in 11 games in his first season. Or how we crap we were for the last 35 odd league games of his reign.
I agree with you, PWS, although most of the Villa fans I know go with BFR.
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Brian for me over BFR. We were more consistent, people seem to forget we finished 5th in 97. At times we played some great stuff under Atkinson, but not this endless fantastic attacking football that seems to get mentioned. Even in 92/93 we were only the joint 8th highest scorers, even Oldham scored more. Not forgetting the 1 goal in 11 games in his first season. Or how we crap we were for the last 35 odd league games of his reign.
Under BFR, most folks just remember the period from November 92 to February 93 when we played some unbelievable stuff and the 94 League Cup run. The rest gets put to the background. Didn't the goalless run coincide with the green sand?
With the 96/97 season we finished 5th despite carrying Curcic for most of the season. If he had fitted in who knows where we would have finished............
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To put into context what Brian achieved in 95-97 with the 4th and 5th place finishes, it's the only time since 1933 we've finished in the top 5 in consecutive seasons.
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To put into context what Brian achieved in 95-97 with the 4th and 5th place finishes, it's the only time since 1933 we've finished in the top 5 in consecutive seasons.
I remember a pre-season preview in 1996 in one of the papers where Ferguson was quoted as saying Villa were the team to watch out for.
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The thing about BFR was that people liked him. As Terry Weir said, when he was around we got the publicity and enjoyed the attention we deserve. He was a populist and the common factor from time immemorial at Villa Park is that whoever follows a populist will struggle. It happened with Vic Crowe after Tommy Docherty, with Brian after BFR and Sir Graham after John Gregory. It was also going to make whoever followed O'Neill struggle in comparison.