Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: dave.woodhall on June 01, 2015, 01:04:50 AM
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http://thebirminghampress.com/2015/06/take-58/
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Saying playing at our best we are a midtable side sums us up perfectly, we are lucky not to be playing in the lower division next season, where those few games of pretty decent football came from is a mystery but the fact remains we lost our last three games of the season and were smashed in two of them. Money needs to be spent and a lot of it but on a few players of quality not a rag tag of would be's and could be's.
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I like the note of optimism at the end.
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Liverpool was effectively our final, it's the game in which we peaked and we celebrated that day as if we'd won the cup. The media over-hype afterwards on some of our players added to that feeling. In some ways you could compare that game to winning the League Cup and how winners of that often find it difficult to lift themselves for the rest of the season.
Our lads kept going until the West Ham win, when all thought that would be enough to stay up, as it proved. On Saturday we played like we had nothing left in the tank, and anyone who has played the game will tell you that's as much mental fatigue as physical.
I was also concerned pre-match about how much of the media attention all week was on us and you felt Arsenal had just been left to prepare in quite. Maybe that side of things also played a part in the mental burn-out.
Added to all that was the fact that Arsenal were bloody good. That can't be overlooked in any analysis of the game and Arsenal fans are talking about it as their best ever Wembley performance.
It reminded me (in reverse) of the 1996 League Cup final - as far as we were concerned we were just brilliant that day, but talk to any Leeds fan and it'll be about how they just didn't turn up. They look back on it in the same way we do Chelsea and 2000 and will do with regards to Saturday.
I've always since wished Dean Holdsworth hadn't missed that open goal in the terrible 2000 semi-final for Bolton and we hadn't reached the final but I feel differently this year. The Liverpool semi-final is what I will remember above everything else, it was a fantastic performance and great day all round. Beating the Albion in the quarter-final made it even better.
Maybe, just for this year, playing the semi-finals at Wembley was the right thing to do.
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You know what, that's a different perspective DeKuip and I'm going to run with it to make me feel better. Cheers.
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Liverpool was effectively our final, it's the game in which we peaked and we celebrated that day as if we'd won the cup. The media over-hype afterwards on some of our players added to that feeling. In some ways you could compare that game to winning the League Cup and how winners of that often find it difficult to lift themselves for the rest of the season.
Our lads kept going until the West Ham win, when all thought that would be enough to stay up, as it proved. On Saturday we played like we had nothing left in the tank, and anyone who has played the game will tell you that's as much mental fatigue as physical.
I was also concerned pre-match about how much of the media attention all week was on us and you felt Arsenal had just been left to prepare in quite. Maybe that side of things also played a part in the mental burn-out.
Added to all that was the fact that Arsenal were bloody good. That can't be overlooked in any analysis of the game and Arsenal fans are talking about it as their best ever Wembley performance.
It reminded me (in reverse) of the 1996 League Cup final - as far as we were concerned we were just brilliant that day, but talk to any Leeds fan and it'll be about how they just didn't turn up. They look back on it in the same way we do Chelsea and 2000 and will do with regards to Saturday.
I've always since wished Dean Holdsworth hadn't missed that open goal in the terrible 2000 semi-final for Bolton and we hadn't reached the final but I feel differently this year. The Liverpool semi-final is what I will remember above everything else, it was a fantastic performance and great day all round. Beating the Albion in the quarter-final made it even better.
Maybe, just for this year, playing the semi-finals at Wembley was the right thing to do.
Good post. I think things turned in the second half of that West Ham game. We were buoyant in the first half, only for the energy levels to drop considerably in the 2nd half, especially in players like Grealish and Cleverley. It was down hill all the way from there.
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It's a good point to discuss the number of changes that had to have occurred since Sherwood arrived. And especially the massive mental upheaval that took place from a side dead and buried to one that survived albeit very narrowly in the end. It took a couple of games to get going after Sherwood arrived and even then included some heartbreak with the last minute defeat to Stoke and the game at Newcastle. But once the first win came the performances just got better overall even if we still lost a couple of games here and there.
I think you could definitely see us looking very leggy vs West Ham in the second half. We just about hung on in the end but with other results I think everyone felt that we we're pretty much safe at that point. And even though Sherwood kept saying we needed two more wins they must have privately felt it too. Or at least most of the tough slogging was done. The Southampton game was what it was. We looked completely out of sorts and as Sherwood put it unrecognizable from the previous weeks. It was a mistake filled horror show, and filled with mental errors. It was marginally better vs Burnley but we still looked flat and not close to the vibrant side we last saw vs Everton.
There's a lot to said for the mental side of the game. If you've ever played it yourself you know that when you are tired you don't think straight. And that's with your mates, not something as serious as professional football at the top level. And when you are mentally exhausted your body can still feel ok, but your brain just isn't connecting the dots and you simply aren't as sharp. Add to that a cup final against an outstanding side and we saw what happened.
Liverpool was the peak of our season. We had come off great wins against West Brom, and a super victory at Spurs. Everything went right that day. That game provided evidence of the very best we can be if your heads and body was right. What the rest of the season has proved that not only was it was a massive effort to get there but the levels of mental and physical strength it takes to play at that level consistently.
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When Sherwood came in he said we had x number of cup finals ahead of us, and to be fair to both him and the players they rose to the challenge in most of them.
I'd have questioned the players more if we'd stopped playing after Liverpool, got relegated and then pulled a blinding performance out the bag on Saturday.
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Agree with the article and comments made.The Liverpool semi was the peak for the Sherwood boost. However, the stress and strain of a 4th successive campaign (5 if you count Houllier's season) battling against relegation has taken it's toll. As I posted on the post match thread yesterday, on Saturday the team looked physically knackered and mentally exhausted (except Gabby, you have to have a brain to qualify for the latter!). It was not as if they did not want to win but were incapable of raising their game because they were running on empty and had nothing left to give.
Looking forward if there is not significant strengthening of the playing squad in quality and numbers in this all too short a close season then I can see another struggle next time round. Also TS needs to learn from his mistakes and poor choices, then make fewer of them. And has he got the right people in the key positions in his backroom staff? After all we don not want to be talking about TSM3, that is in T im S herwood, M anager.
(could not get Bold font on first letters only)
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I think mental fatigue was a factor in our last 3 games.Sherwood did his best to get them up to get over the line but as mentioned even 2nd half against West Ham we were flagging.
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I think mental fatigue was a factor in our last 3 games.Sherwood did his best to get them up to get over the line but as mentioned even 2nd half against West Ham we were flagging.
Which makes the team selection v Burnley appear very odd
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Spot on Dave.
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I think mental fatigue was a factor in our last 3 games.Sherwood did his best to get them up to get over the line but as mentioned even 2nd half against West Ham we were flagging.
Which makes the team selection v Burnley appear very odd
I'd say yes and no. Yes because some players could have done with a breather. No, because we just got battered 6-1 and maybe a part of the selection decision was to get them to get over that game with what the manager would have hoped would be a significantly better display. As it happened it was (because it couldn't have been worse) and we still lost. I think the approach backfired and maybe then the writing was on the wall.
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Excellent summaries, all.
As I - apparently - kept saying to anyone who would listen on Saturday evening, "we just didn't turn up".
My abiding thought is that Sherwood has got his job cut out to shape a squad for next season that will not be struggling. A Cheslsea-supporting mate said to me on Saturday morning that he believed a Villa win would create the start of the renewal process toward a strong Villa team. I wonder whether the reverse is also true.
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Personally, to say we didn't turn up is insulting to Arsenal. They were miles better than us on the day, and the two other days we've played them this season.
There are things we could have done differently like personnel etc, but overall I think they'd have probably won anyway the way they were playing and they were worthy winners, disappointing as that is
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Excellent summaries, all.
As I - apparently - kept saying to anyone who would listen on Saturday evening, "we just didn't turn up".
My abiding thought is that Sherwood has got his job cut out to shape a squad for next season that will not be struggling. A Cheslsea-supporting mate said to me on Saturday morning that he believed a Villa win would create the start of the renewal process toward a strong Villa team. I wonder whether the reverse is also true.
Or, the win may have papered over the cracks
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I think mental fatigue was a factor in our last 3 games.Sherwood did his best to get them up to get over the line but as mentioned even 2nd half against West Ham we were flagging.
Which makes the team selection v Burnley appear very odd
I'd say yes and no. Yes because some players could have done with a breather. No, because we just got battered 6-1 and maybe a part of the selection decision was to get them to get over that game with what the manager would have hoped would be a significantly better display. As it happened it was (because it couldn't have been worse) and we still lost. I think the approach backfired and maybe then the writing was on the wall.
It was strange. I understand trying to play your better players into form, so in which case why give a youth team goalkeeper his league debut for no evident reason?
If it's the sort of end-of-season training match in which we can throw in a youth team player, why keep Benteke and Delph on the pitch for 90 underwhelming minutes?
There didn't seem to be any cohesive plan.
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I've come to the conclusion that if Liverpool had got through to the final they would also have suffered the same fate. Maybe even worse.
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Someone whose opinion I respect made a good point this afternoon. When you're as good as Arsenal you can rest players against the lesser teams, you can play within yourselves and still win, relax and take players off when you go ahead because you know the points are safe. When you're as crap as we've been for most of this season you can't do any of that. You have to give your all in every minute of every match to stand any chance, and all this takes effort.
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I think mental fatigue was a factor in our last 3 games.Sherwood did his best to get them up to get over the line but as mentioned even 2nd half against West Ham we were flagging.
Which makes the team selection v Burnley appear very odd
I'd say yes and no. Yes because some players could have done with a breather. No, because we just got battered 6-1 and maybe a part of the selection decision was to get them to get over that game with what the manager would have hoped would be a significantly better display. As it happened it was (because it couldn't have been worse) and we still lost. I think the approach backfired and maybe then the writing was on the wall.
It was strange. I understand trying to play your better players into form, so in which case why give a youth team goalkeeper his league debut for no evident reason?
If it's the sort of end-of-season training match in which we can throw in a youth team player, why keep Benteke and Delph on the pitch for 90 underwhelming minutes?
There didn't seem to be any plan.
wasn't the GK because Given was injured and not guaranteed for the final, Guzan was therefore going to play, and if he got injured vs Burnley then with Steer cup tied we'd be down to some 16yr old playing vs Arsenal?
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wasn't the GK because Given was injured and not guaranteed for the final, Guzan was therefore going to play, and if he got injured vs Burnley then with Steer cup tied we'd be down to some 16yr old playing vs Arsenal?
Like I say, that makes perfect sense.
So if it was because we were worried about a hypothetical injury that leaves us up shit-creek if it happens, why was Benteke on the pitch for 90 minutes rather than letting Gabby run around for a bit?
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Wasnt there also a hint that Sherwood didnt know Steer was cup tied, something like him saying he didnt want his (Steer) first game for the club to be at Wembley.
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Wasnt there also a hint that Sherwood didnt know Steer was cup tied, something like him saying he didnt want his (Steer) first game for the club to be at Wembley.
I remember the rumour, but I can't imagine for a moment it would be true.
There's no way that Sherwood or the dozen or so people looking after match preparations would all be stupid enough to not be aware of it or think of checking it while getting things ready for the Burnley match.
I hope not, anyway.
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On FB Page. Sorry for the delay but my laptop has died and I've had to go back to work to borrow one and get it configured correctly for use at home.
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I've come to the conclusion that if Liverpool had got through to the final they would also have suffered the same fate. Maybe even worse.
It was luck, rather than judgement that meant we only lost 4-0
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It was a minor miracle that we only lost 0-4. That score-line flattered us.
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I've come to the conclusion that if Liverpool had got through to the final they would also have suffered the same fate. Maybe even worse.
Disagree, as much as I dislike them, I concede that they have a better big game pedigree than us and ultimately better players.
We have a better manager who just needs the tools to do the job now.
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Liverpool was effectively our final, it's the game in which we peaked and we celebrated that day as if we'd won the cup. The media over-hype afterwards on some of our players added to that feeling. In some ways you could compare that game to winning the League Cup and how winners of that often find it difficult to lift themselves for the rest of the season.
Our lads kept going until the West Ham win, when all thought that would be enough to stay up, as it proved. On Saturday we played like we had nothing left in the tank, and anyone who has played the game will tell you that's as much mental fatigue as physical.
I was also concerned pre-match about how much of the media attention all week was on us and you felt Arsenal had just been left to prepare in quite. Maybe that side of things also played a part in the mental burn-out.
Added to all that was the fact that Arsenal were bloody good. That can't be overlooked in any analysis of the game and Arsenal fans are talking about it as their best ever Wembley performance.
It reminded me (in reverse) of the 1996 League Cup final - as far as we were concerned we were just brilliant that day, but talk to any Leeds fan and it'll be about how they just didn't turn up. They look back on it in the same way we do Chelsea and 2000 and will do with regards to Saturday.
I've always since wished Dean Holdsworth hadn't missed that open goal in the terrible 2000 semi-final for Bolton and we hadn't reached the final but I feel differently this year. The Liverpool semi-final is what I will remember above everything else, it was a fantastic performance and great day all round. Beating the Albion in the quarter-final made it even better.
Maybe, just for this year, playing the semi-finals at Wembley was the right thing to do.
Good post. I think things turned in the second half of that West Ham game. We were buoyant in the first half, only for the energy levels to drop considerably in the 2nd half, especially in players like Grealish and Cleverley. It was down hill all the way from there.
It's like our team is an alcoholic. Lambertball is our particular addition and under Tim we were doing so so well keeping off it and then West Ham 2nd half was our first taste of the hard stuff for ages and we just fell off the wagon big time.
It's going to be a huge fight if most of these players stay to keep them on the wagon. I'm therefore very intrigued to see what happens personnel-wise this summer.
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Agree with the article and comments made.The Liverpool semi was the peak for the Sherwood boost. However, the stress and strain of a 4th successive campaign (5 if you count Houllier's season) battling against relegation has taken it's toll. As I posted on the post match thread yesterday, on Saturday the team looked physically knackered and mentally exhausted (except Gabby, you have to have a brain to qualify for the latter!). It was not as if they did not want to win but were incapable of raising their game because they were running on empty and had nothing left to give.
Looking forward if there is not significant strengthening of the playing squad in quality and numbers in this all too short a close season then I can see another struggle next time round. Also TS needs to learn from his mistakes and poor choices, then make fewer of them. And has he got the right people in the key positions in his backroom staff? After all we don not want to be talking about TSM3, that is in T im S herwood, M anager.
(could not get Bold font on first letters only)
Not so sure, as there was still a good performance and result against Everton after that. I think the West Ham game was where we saw them run out of steam.
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Someone whose opinion I respect made a good point this afternoon. When you're as good as Arsenal you can rest players against the lesser teams, you can play within yourselves and still win, relax and take players off when you go ahead because you know the points are safe. When you're as crap as we've been for most of this season you can't do any of that. You have to give your all in every minute of every match to stand any chance, and all this takes effort.
That is a good point Dave and every game in the run in (up to the Burnley game) was a pressure game. I think it is far more draining both physically and emotionally to be involved in games like that and they take their toll.
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I agree with a the thrust of the article and much of what has been posted since. They were just better than us and we didn't have it in us to find a way to counter that. Plenty to be done for next season but the major achievement is that we are rebuilding for the top division which looked an unlikely proposition in February.
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The problem in the final was that we needed to go up a couple of gears from the Liverpool performance to beat Arsenal. Did the team have those gears in them anyway or was it just that they were mentally drained by the run in and the occasion.
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Burnley I'd guess
1)He played regulars to try get some form back after the shocker at Southampton
2)He played them as a win was worth a few million quid in league placings
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I think Arsenal when they are in form would beat pretty much anybody, and on Saturday they had a mixture of being in form, and us being wretched.
Losing to Arsenal is no shame. Failing to put up anything even resembling a fight, though, that's the disappointing bit.
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They are 3rd and we are 17th and it showed end off.
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They are 3rd and we are 17th and it showed end off.
Not as simple as that though is it.
We didnt turn up, and had less fight in us than a French soldier in 1940
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yeah arsenal played well and would have beaten anyone
but we played that bad anyone would have beaten us , including chersterfield and bristol rovers
you could excuse the players for taking their foot of the gas for the last 2 league games with the final coming up
but the peformance in the final was even worse than the last 2 league games
i think something happened in the dressing room at during half time or after the west ham home match
and because of that the players decided to make less effort
we seen what player power at bodymoor heath done with roy keane
Tim needs to get the ringleaders out the club before august
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yeah arsenal played well and would have beaten anyone
but we played that bad anyone would have beaten us , including chersterfield and bristol rovers
you could excuse the players for taking their foot of the gas for the last 2 league games with the final coming up
but the peformance in the final was even worse than the last 2 league games
i think something happened in the dressing room at during half time or after the west ham home match
and because of that the players decided to make less effort
we seen what player power at bodymoor heath done with roy keane
Tim needs to get the ringleaders out the club before august
Interesting theory. Do you work for a media organisation.
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yeah arsenal played well and would have beaten anyone
but we played that bad anyone would have beaten us , including chersterfield and bristol rovers
you could excuse the players for taking their foot of the gas for the last 2 league games with the final coming up
but the peformance in the final was even worse than the last 2 league games
i think something happened in the dressing room at during half time or after the west ham home match
and because of that the players decided to make less effort
we seen what player power at bodymoor heath done with roy keane
Tim needs to get the ringleaders out the club before august
Interesting theory. Do you work for a media organisation.
yes mate
radio WM