Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Matt Collins on May 03, 2015, 07:11:23 AM
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Time to fess up. At the start of this season I'd completely written off Clark and baker. I realise now the error of my ways and apologise. Who from the current squad have others written off?
I should say I was never one of those to write off delph, nzogbia or cleverley or Gardner
I have however given up on weimann, joe Bennett, tonev, helenius, sylla.
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Oh and I'm still writing off Darren bent at this level
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Clark and Baker have always been decent, just not as a pair together.
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More recently Hutton, Baker and Cleverley.
Players of the past, I once had a massive rant about David Platt after an away match at Coventry when we were struggling. Thought he wasn't top flight quality (shakes head with embarrassment).
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Dwight Yorke. After we got beaten at Maine Road early in his career I said to my mate that if someone offered us a million quid for him we should bite their hand off.
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Peter Withe. It was a real WTF moment when Ron signed him but.....
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Stylian Petrov. When he first came I slagged him off without mercy. In time he proved me completely wrong and I admire him immensely. Of the current squad Cleverley is currently twenty times the player I judged him to be when he arrived.
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Not written off exactly but I certainly didnt expect Delph to jump from "hopeful young talent back from long injury" to "The Yorkshire Lothar Matthaeus" without stopping in between.
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From the past the two players who i had all but written off the day we signed them,were Withe and McGrath.God,how wrong i was! From the present squad, i have to say since Sherwood arrived,Cleverley has made me eat my words somewhat.
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Ciaran Clark.
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Cleverley. I used to feel disappointed just seeing his name on the teamsheet; now, he's this dynamic superhero of a midfielder.
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Carlos Sanchez.
Oh wait,
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I used to say Alan Hutton was the worst player I'd ever seen pull on a Villa shirt.
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Where to start? Delph, Bacuna, Cleverley, Westwood. To be fair though, the transformation in just about all of the players has been nothing short of miraculous under Sherwood.
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Where to start? Delph, Bacuna, Cleverley, Westwood. To be fair though, the transformation in just about all of the players has been nothing short of miraculous under Sherwood.
More or less same for me, I'd add Clark and subtract bacuna.
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It's easy to forget how dire things were under Lambert though. Benteke was getting all sorts of abuse on here.
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Just Cleverley for me, if he was the answer, I thought what the hell was the question?
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Stylian Petrov. When he first came I slagged him off without mercy. In time he proved me completely wrong and I admire him immensely. Of the current squad Cleverley is currently twenty times the player I judged him to be when he arrived.
Same here. Stan was poor for a long time before transforming into the great player and leader he became. I also remember Ugo having a miserable start to his Villa career.
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There's going to be quite a few who have to say Delph!
Gabby is the only one of the current squad I can think of. Oh and quite possibly Given.
What we will all have done is say XYZ is in awful form, or they had a gash game. Which is different to totally writing them off.
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Bosko Balaban and Ivo Stas
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David Unsworth.
Never given a chance. Harsh.
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Definitely Cleverley from this team. I called him a waste of space under Lambert. I seem to remember not being sure about Kent Neilson early on. Alan McInally in his first season. Paul Elliott went on to have a decent career but I never rated him when he was with us.
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Dave Geddis.
From comedy player to more or less a villa legend.
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Where to start? Delph, Bacuna, Cleverley, Westwood. To be fair though, the transformation in just about all of the players has been nothing short of miraculous under Sherwood.
Don't forget that donkey Benteke Riss! :P
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Time to fess up. At the start of this season I'd completely written off Clark and baker. I realise now the error of my ways and apologise. Who from the current squad have others written off?
I should say I was never one of those to write off delph, nzogbia or cleverley or Gardner
I have however given up on weimann, joe Bennett, tonev, helenius, sylla.
Is obviously causing some problems!
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Ugo Ehiogu
Gary Cahill
Steven Davis
Peter Withe
to name but four who instantly come to mind....
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Stylian Petrov. When he first came I slagged him off without mercy. In time he proved me completely wrong and I admire him immensely. Of the current squad Cleverley is currently twenty times the player I judged him to be when he arrived.
Same here. Stan was poor for a long time before transforming into the great player and leader he became. I also remember Ugo having a miserable start to his Villa career.
An absolute stinker away at the Dell sticks in my mind regarding Ugo. I gave him dog's abuse at the end
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A centre forward called Peter Withe before he came to the club, shows how much I know😚
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Ugo's home debut v Norwich.
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Bosko Balaban and Ivo Stas
I bet you were made to eat your words.....I wish!
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Ugo's home debut v Norwich.
Which wasn't his debut. Home or away.
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Has to be Delph. But as others have said it's not that the criticism was undue. Some players have literally transformed from very poor at this level to being one of the best. Huge credit to Delph for that.
I have to say Delph still has the look of a disaster waiting to happen, his touch can be so poor and he never really looks to have the ball in control but he just plays his own way, maybe that is what other teams are finding hard about playing him, the only other player he's similar too is Yaya (different level obviously). His energy and commitment though are fantastic and he is the driving force behind the team and quite rightly captain.
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My son has always been Delph's biggest critic whereas I usually stood up for Delph to an extent. He hasn't conceded he was wrong as yet, but I think that is just his pride.
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A few years ago I was one of the very few on here standing up for Delph and saying there was a player there! /smugmode
Mind you, I said similar about Herd. /oooopsmode
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I'll be honest and say I thought he was possibly one of the worst players in the league. I still think he was! Different gravy now...
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Delph was always a real player in the making, it's just that managers / injuries & his own enthusiasm held things up for a while.
Clark / Baker have improved, Bacuna too, but I'd still be cautious on the last two.
Ashley Young in his first dozen or so games looked average at best.
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I thought Baker was out of his depth, and just thought Cleverley was crap. Been happy to have been proven wrong, again.
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I think folks got sick of me posting this and saying anyone who can do this at 18 or 19, even at league one level, has something about them.
And as I always said at the time, mute the sound!
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Always thought Delph was special but Cleverley I wrote off. Some of the games I saw him he looked like he had never kicked a ball before never mind playing for England.
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A few people wrote Benteke off in his early days here. Plus a few were less than excited about his purchase, and I recall one of our Belgian fans, having seen plenty of him, declaring he wouldn't make it at this level. Now that is all kinds of wrong.
Personally I too wrote off Baker and Clark, as well as Hutton. More recently Cleverley. It's remarkable the transformation that Cleverley has had under Sherwood. He'll be back in the England set up before long.
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Cleverley but I'm glad I was wrong.
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Cleverley and N'Zogbia.
EDIT: and Alan Hutton
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I think Nathan Baker might make it at Villa. Big lad, fairly quick, seems to be less error prone these days.
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Cleverley but I'm glad I was wrong.
I remember you have made some very harsh comments about him.
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The u-turn on Hutton has been the most amusing to witness on here.
Until this season he was one of the worst, dirtiest players to have ever played for us and the sooner he was taken off the payroll on £45k a week or whatever, the better. After that crucial winner in front of the Holte against Leicester before Christmas everyone wanted his bald Scottish babbies.
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Don't think hutton was ever that bad , he was just left exposed over and over again.
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Most of the current squad thanks to Lambert's illusionary abilities.
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Has to be Delph. But as others have said it's not that the criticism was undue. Some players have literally transformed from very poor at this level to being one of the best. Huge credit to Delph for that.
I have to say Delph still has the look of a disaster waiting to happen, his touch can be so poor and he never really looks to have the ball in control but he just plays his own way, maybe that is what other teams are finding hard about playing him, the only other player he's similar too is Yaya (different level obviously). His energy and commitment though are fantastic and he is the driving force behind the team and quite rightly captain.
He was a kid who kept on getting injuries. And he always had the quick feet of someone who might be excellent. Of all our current players I think he was the most unjustly written off by several people as being not just not ready, or not good enough at this level, but fundamentally crap.
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Bacuna and Clark. Clark I said would make a championship player at best and Bacuna was worth £1m max.
In my defence I said Hutton was our best fullback and got pelters for it, so :P
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Cleverley and N'Zogbia.
Same here. Cleverly has really made me eat humble pie. N'Zogbia I still don't believe in. Just because he was absolute crap and now puts a shift in doesn't convince me he's good enough for us. I'd be more than happy if we can get rid of him in the summer. Four seasons and you can count his good games on your thumbs.
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Maybe Westwood out of the current team, had started to lose complete faith in N'zogbia having any ability other than running down blind alleys too
I was always convinced we had a top 10-12 minimum team that just wasn't performing
I was wrong about Lambert though, i was utterly convinced he was going to be a top class manager, and up until like a month or two before he left i still thought he'd turn it round
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Eamonn Deacy. Made himself into a decent player in the end through sheer hard work, guts and determination.
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No wonder we've struggled this season with all these 50 and 60 year olds in the squad.
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Has to be Delph. But as others have said it's not that the criticism was undue. Some players have literally transformed from very poor at this level to being one of the best. Huge credit to Delph for that.
I have to say Delph still has the look of a disaster waiting to happen, his touch can be so poor and he never really looks to have the ball in control but he just plays his own way, maybe that is what other teams are finding hard about playing him, the only other player he's similar too is Yaya (different level obviously). His energy and commitment though are fantastic and he is the driving force behind the team and quite rightly captain.
He was a kid who kept on getting injuries. And he always had the quick feet of someone who might be excellent. Of all our current players I think he was the most unjustly written off by several people as being not just not ready, or not good enough at this level, but fundamentally crap.
Being played out of position also held back Delph and affected his confidence. I always knew he had it in him though as in his first appearences for Villa he was excellent. The game where he started to turn it around was the win over Norwich in the league cup during Lambert's first season.
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Hutton in particular after he got sent off against Arsenal for a stupid late tackle - really annoyed me. As someone quipped on here when he returned to the team "if McGrath is God then Hutton is Lazarus"
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Fred Turnbull, John Robson and Ken McNaught were all players who turned round a lot of fans after bad starts. I didn't think much of Platt or Yorke when they first arrived here but they weren't terrible either. Guzan looked hopeless and clueless in an FA cup tie with Blackburn a few years back and a few other games too. I've always rated Delph, he always showed glimpses of good technique, he just wasn't channelling his ability correctly, and played under some shite managers, often out of position. I'm not surprised at all that he has come good. I'm afraid I'm still far from convinced by either Clark or Baker. I still think Weimann may have something to offer if he can learn to be more composed.
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Fred Turnbull, John Robson and Ken McNaught were all players who turned round a lot of fans after bad starts. I didn't think much of Platt or Yorke when they first arrived here but they weren't terrible either. Guzan looked hopeless and clueless in an FA cup tie with Blackburn a few years back and a few other games too. I've always rated Delph, he always showed glimpses of good technique, he just wasn't channelling his ability correctly, and played under some shite managers, often out of position. I'm not surprised at all that he has come good. I'm afraid I'm still far from convinced by either Clark or Baker. I still think Weimann may have something to offer if he can learn to be more composed.
I rated Platt right from his debut at Blackburn. Yorke not so much, but to be fair he spent his first year or two being a sub or short term stand in.
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I did not think Delph would be good enough, Clarke has also proved better than I thought, I never wanted to se Nzog in a Villa shirt.
I still don't think Weiman is good enough.
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Clark and Baker. They looked awkward and clueless for years....
...but then Villa has been defending since MON left so with LOTS of practice they finally caught on (Clark over Baker though).
Still written off Westwood as a creative midfielder...he had promise but Lambert just killed it with 2 years of that sideways-possession drill.
TS used him smartly as a defensive midfielder though. Takes a lot of pressure off defence. But creative...nope!
Weimann and Lowton still written off. Richardsson too.
Always been a Bacuna Supporter...he sure has a fair share of mistakes but always been able to provide crosses to Benteke as a targetman.
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Petrov for me, finally showed his true class, but only after being dropped because the fans were screaming for it. Glad to be proved wrong.
Of the current crop N'Zogbia, i thought he would never break a sweat for us again, still not a massive fan, but he is winning me round. He is due a goal, so Charles, score the winner in the cup final and my climb down will be complete.
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The usual suspects, Delph, Cleverley & Hutton.
When Delph arrived under ONeil, Leeds fans were raving about him but all we saw really was a boy in a mans world, a guaranteed yellow card and not a lot else, he's certainly starting to fulfil his potential.
Cleverley just looked like a pub player, disinterested and actually not very good, all of a sudden his confidence is back and him & Delph are a great pairing.
Hutton, a horrible player, can't really call him a footballer he was an oaf. But fair play to him, when whichever genius put him in the bomb squad and ostracised him and others he knuckled down, went out on loan and even played for his country came back into the side for whatever reason and put in some shifts, scored a marvellous volley against Leicester but still has flashes of oafishness (against Leicester he should have been dismissed in 9/10 games) I think his talent has peaked but he's a far, far better footballer now than he was when he arrived under TSM v0.1
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I think the development paths of players like Delph and Aaron Ramsey are compelling examples of why people should be particularly patient with young, skilful central midfielders coming back from serious injuries. The physical challenge of coming back is one thing, but then you have to ally that with all the multi-tasking that playing in central midfield involves. Hopefully Gary Gardner's another one who comes good after perseverance by all parties involved.
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Would just like to point out I don't think any of Clark, Baker or Cleverly have "made it" yet. Certainly there have been encouraging signs and Cleverly has had an excellent few weeks but just like we perhaps wrote off people a little hastily perhaps others are being slightly inflated. Still that's the fun in a forum!
As for N'Zog, well I think his attitude has improved certainly but there's still not a great deal of end product really. Westwood has always looked a very tidy player in the making.
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I think the development paths of players like Delph and Aaron Ramsey are compelling examples of why people should be particularly patient with young, skilful central midfielders coming back from serious injuries. The physical challenge of coming back is one thing, but then you have to ally that with all the multi-tasking that playing in central midfield involves. Hopefully Gary Gardner's another one who comes good after perseverance by all parties involved.
Very good point, hopefully will be the same case with Okore, he looked a real prospect when we signed him.
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A few years ago We were away at Fulham and the new striker missed an absolute sitter right in front of us. My 12-year-old daughter could have put it away blindfolded. I turned to the old fella and said "He'll never make a premier league striker while he's got a hole up his arse!". The old man concurred. That young striker? Chap called Christian Benteke. Oops! :-[
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Delph was absymal in the early part of Lambert's first season, wasnt there talk of him going on loan to a championship side back then? Remember him being taken off for his own good in a couple of home games.
Doubt there has ever been a player to make a comeback at the club like Hutton. Think Sherwood has done well getting something out of the likes of Gabby and Nzogbia, not that there would be too many tears shed if they left in the summer. Clark and Baker had a lot of critics for a long time, both have showed a lot of character.
Juan Pablo Angel came back from a stint AWOL to be one of the top scorers in the league under O'Leary.
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anyone remember Ugo Ehiogu's debut, think it was against Norwich
written of in 90 minutes by most people there
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anyone remember Ugo Ehiogu's debut, think it was against Norwich
written of in 90 minutes by most people there
It wasn't his debut.
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anyone remember Ugo Ehiogu's debut, think it was against Norwich
written of in 90 minutes by most people there
It wasn't his debut.
it was a long time ago, and I'm old and forgetful
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A few years ago We were away at Fulham and the new striker missed an absolute sitter right in front of us. My 12-year-old daughter could have put it away blindfolded. I turned to the old fella and said "He'll never make a premier league striker while he's got a hole up his arse!". The old man concurred. That young striker? Chap called Christian Benteke. Oops! :-[
Except it wasn't a sitter...
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I think the development paths of players like Delph and Aaron Ramsey are compelling examples of why people should be particularly patient with young, skilful central midfielders coming back from serious injuries. The physical challenge of coming back is one thing, but then you have to ally that with all the multi-tasking that playing in central midfield involves. Hopefully Gary Gardner's another one who comes good after perseverance by all parties involved.
Very good point, hopefully will be the same case with Okore, he looked a real prospect when we signed him.
He's not looked to shabby since he came back. Don't forget he's still young (22/23) in what's effectively his first season at this level. Compare and contrast to Baker and Clark in their first seasons.
Oh and a hands up for Baker. He may never be first choice, but I was convinced that he'd do well in league 1, but his discipline and positioning have improved beyond recognition this season.
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Baker is better than I thought and is now at least worth a squad place (but he's not good enough to start regularly in this league and isn't fit enough to do it anyway).
Cleverley has always looked massively overrated to me, his current form is the best I've seen from him and if he can keep it up I'll happily withdraw my criticism of him.
Petrov was always someone I criticised but that was never down to ability or effort, it was down to the fact that he always looked out on his feet after an hour.
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anyone remember Ugo Ehiogu's debut, think it was against Norwich
written of in 90 minutes by most people there
Fairly sure Ehiogu's (home) debut was a cup match v Oxford United and he had a blinder.
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A few years ago We were away at Fulham and the new striker missed an absolute sitter right in front of us. My 12-year-old daughter could have put it away blindfolded. I turned to the old fella and said "He'll never make a premier league striker while he's got a hole up his arse!". The old man concurred. That young striker? Chap called Christian Benteke. Oops! :-[
Except it wasn't a sitter...
Beg to differ there mate. Right on his head on the edge of the 6-yard box with the goalie stranded and he put it wide, high and not very handsome. And it wasn't just that miss - he'd missed a few at the other end in the first half.
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Today there are a few articles knocking around from the Birmingham mail etc that are suggesting that Helenius, Sylla, Tonev and Luna won't have a future at the club. Bennett and Gardner on the other hand will get a chance.
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Many already mentioned. Cleverly looks more promising and I hope he makes me eat my words but until he signs a 4 year contract and plays most games like he has recently I'm still on the fence. Clark and Baker have not made me eat my words yet and I doubt they ever will, but again I'm happy to be proved wrong.
I could see potential in Petrov but did start to doubt him I must admit. Ugo's game against Norwich was worrying, but didn't write him off. I never wrote Hutton off but thought he'd end up leaving.
3 players I liked to start with who started looking ropey but came back well where Delph, Dublin and Mellberg.
I never thought Laursen would be the player he turned out to be to be honest, but again wouldn't say I wrote him off.
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Oh, and I openly admit I didn't see Milner becoming the player he did after that season he had on loan.
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anyone remember Ugo Ehiogu's debut, think it was against Norwich
written of in 90 minutes by most people there
Fairly sure Ehiogu's (home) debut was a cup match v Oxford United and he had a blinder.
His debut was a year earlier. Arsenal home August 1991.
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anyone remember Ugo Ehiogu's debut, think it was against Norwich
written of in 90 minutes by most people there
Fairly sure Ehiogu's (home) debut was a cup match v Oxford United and he had a blinder.
His debut was a year earlier. Arsenal away August 1991.
That Norwich game was his home debut in the league, wasn't it?
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That should be Arsenal home!
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Based on the last month or two then Tom Cleverley.
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Stylian Petrov. When he first came I slagged him off without mercy. In time he proved me completely wrong and I admire him immensely. Of the current squad Cleverley is currently twenty times the player I judged him to be when he arrived.
Same here. Stan was poor for a long time before transforming into the great player and leader he became.
Petrov was never a great player.
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The u-turn on Hutton has been the most amusing to witness on here.
Until this season he was one of the worst, dirtiest players to have ever played for us and the sooner he was taken off the payroll on £45k a week or whatever, the better. After that crucial winner in front of the Holte against Leicester before Christmas everyone wanted his bald Scottish babbies.
Hutton has improved beyond measure and his performances in the first half of the season were an almost isolated ray of hope. That doesn't mean he's anything more than mediocre though.
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I couldn't see Clark and Baker coming back from their very poor form at the end of last season, especially Nathan. I thought their confidence had completely crumbled and that they'd have to drop down a division to recover.
I'm really pleased to be so wrong.
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Many already mentioned. Cleverly looks more promising and I hope he makes me eat my words but until he signs a 4 year contract and plays most games like he has recently I'm still on the fence. Clark and Baker have not made me eat my words yet and I doubt they ever will, but again I'm happy to be proved wrong.
I could see potential in Petrov but did start to doubt him I must admit. Ugo's game against Norwich was worrying, but didn't write him off. I never wrote Hutton off but thought he'd end up leaving.
3 players I liked to start with who started looking ropey but came back well where Delph, Dublin and Mellberg.
I never thought Laursen would be the player he turned out to be to be honest, but again wouldn't say I wrote him off.
Didn't Dublin score about 7 goals in his first three games??!
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Yes, he did.
It could have been even better; he had a goal wrongly disallowed against Spurs and a penalty saved vs Liverpool, which would have given him three hat-tricks in his first three games!!
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Mellberg was also great when he started - great partnership with alpay
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A few years ago We were away at Fulham and the new striker missed an absolute sitter right in front of us. My 12-year-old daughter could have put it away blindfolded. I turned to the old fella and said "He'll never make a premier league striker while he's got a hole up his arse!". The old man concurred. That young striker? Chap called Christian Benteke. Oops! :-[
Except it wasn't a sitter...
No it wasn't. I was there that today and the cross back was just behind Benteke so he had to turn his body to get a shot in which just went wide. He missed far easier chances against West Brom and Spurs the previous weeks.
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Plus he had a defender right in front of him iirc. the only absolute sitter I remember him missing when he was getting stick was the header at Spurs.
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Petrov and Hutton. Salifou, the bulletproof song made it worth while (not the events obviously).
I've still written N'Zogbia off. And Gabby. Maximum impact player for me now.
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Petrov is a good one. I slated him in his first two seasons, without bearing in mind he was playing a new role.
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Tom Cleverley! I labelled him as a lazy mercenary for most of the season!
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Although I never actually wrote him off, earlier in the season I'd be panicking when I saw Jack Grealish warming up because most of the time he'd come on as sub only to lose possession left right and centre. Now one of the strongest assets he has is holding onto the ball and never losing it.
I'm glad I'm not a manager.
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Although I never actually wrote him off, earlier in the season I'd be panicking when I saw Jack Grealish warming up because most of the time he'd come on as sub only to lose possession left right and centre. Now one of the strongest assets he has is holding onto the ball and never losing it.
I'm glad I'm not a manager.
Don't worry, I'd say about 90% of meat-and-potatoes British managers would think exactly the same, and it doesn't force them of the gravy train.
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I don't think cleverley could ever have been called lazy
And I don't remember grealish losing the ball that often? Might be wrong tho
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Some of his cup starts were a bit ropey, Leyton Orient especially, but he did well in his league appearances from the off.
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Alan Hutton
Fabian Delph
Tom Cleverley
I blame Lambert.
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A few years ago We were away at Fulham and the new striker missed an absolute sitter right in front of us. My 12-year-old daughter could have put it away blindfolded. I turned to the old fella and said "He'll never make a premier league striker while he's got a hole up his arse!". The old man concurred. That young striker? Chap called Christian Benteke. Oops! :-[
Except it wasn't a sitter...
Beg to differ there mate. Right on his head on the edge of the 6-yard box with the goalie stranded and he put it wide, high and not very handsome. And it wasn't just that miss - he'd missed a few at the other end in the first half.
Well we will beg to differ. including that it was a shot...and he hit it first time and as I vaguely recall it either come at him at pace and he didn't have time to aim, or it was slightly behind him, and it just missed the post.
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No contest. I thought Cleverly was the biggest tub of shite to wear our shirt in a long time. Some turnaround. Good man Tom. Keep banging them in.