Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Dave P on January 25, 2015, 09:26:58 PM
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Self explanatory. Would you be happy to 'do a Wigan' and get relegated with the FA Cup in the bag?
For the record, I would.
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No way, not worth it for me at the risk of spending 10+ years in the doldrums, couldn't stomach going to grounds like Brentford and Rotherham becoming the norm.
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Look at Wigan now- be interesting to ask their supporters what they would choose in hindsight.
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Good questions.
For me an FA Cup win.
I wouldn't be that bothered by relegation. New teams to play, different cities to visit. Hopefully we'd win a few more games. Importantly I could also enjoy sneering at the Premier League as some sort of repulsive, money driven behemoth without actually being involved in it. It's hard to enjoy the pantomime plot of the premier league when you actually care about something in it.
Ditto - I could watch MOTD again.
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Look at Wigan now- be interesting to ask their supporters what they would choose in hindsight.
Probably still the cup win. Wigan are still punching above their weight in that division imho.
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No for me. We can win the FA cup if we just have some stability and a plan in terms of how to achieve success. It's not either/or for me.
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I can't get over 4 people actually voted for the cup.
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Aye. We've been sitting on seven for too long.
No guarantee that we would bounce back, but a semi competent owner/ manager combo (ie not the current lot) should get us up again, even if the worst were to happen.
If you're not in it to win trophies, what are you in it for?
Couldn't give a fuck about visiting The Theatre of Dreams, hosting those aristocrats from North London or any variation of similar muck our own site has come out with in recent years.
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No, but for a club like Aston Villa, this shouldn't be a dilemma. We ought to challenge for cups without being relegated, we're not Wigan or Small Heath.
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Actually, seeing as how we're not likely to win the league any time soon, I'd rather we aggressively pursue the Cup competitions. If we were to win a few cups like we did in the 90's the whole club mentality would be different I reckon. Just not at the expense of our top flight status.
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I'd sacrifice far more than our Premier League status to see us win the FA Cup just the once in my lifetime. Possibly a major organ, or a limb?
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No
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I can't get over 4 people actually voted for the cup.
I haven't voted yet, but I would take the FA cup every day of the week,
you don't tell your grand kids about the day you won the fight against relegation
although the whole thing is irrelevant really because it's a surreal dilemma, one where there is no choice in reality
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Oh hang on "Aston Villa achieved financial security and stability in the League" or "Aston Villa won the FA cup" no need to wait too long for my answer GIVE ME THE CUP.
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Look at Wigan now- be interesting to ask their supporters what they would choose in hindsight.
The only one I know said it was worth it.
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No for me. We can win the FA cup if we just have some stability and a plan in terms of how to achieve success. It's not either/or for me.
Well we haven't managed it in the last 58 years
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Why is it always the same options? They're not mutually inclusive.
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Yes
were only ever gona be one of the also rans in this league
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Why is it always the same options? They're not mutually inclusive.
Of course their not. Everybody wants to win the cup and stop up. Nobody wants to get relegated with no cup. The dilemma put forward is yielding a near 50/50 result so far.
This could become more real as we progress further in the cup and potentially take our eye of the ball in the league as Wigan and Hull did in the last two years. Hull survived luckily for them.
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Say we will take the FA Cup win and finish up being relegated until we have won the semi final, then tell everybody we lied.
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Why is it always the same options? They're not mutually inclusive.
Of course not. Everybody wants to win the cup and stop up. Nobody wants to get relegated with no cup. The dilemma put forward is yielding a near 50/50 result so far.
This could become more real as we progress further in the cup and potentially take our eye of the ball in the league as Wigan and Hull did in the last two years. Hull survived luckily for them.
And how many more clubs have seen their league form improve as they went on a cup run - Manchester United in 1990 being the most obvious. example.
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I can't get over 4 people actually voted for the cup.
I haven't voted yet, but I would take the FA cup every day of the week,
you don't tell your grand kids about the day you won the fight against relegation
although the whole thing is irrelevant really because it's a surreal dilemma, one where there is no choice in reality
Remember that famous season when we reduced our losses?
Doesn't quite have the same ring to it.
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Say we will take the FA Cup win and finish up being relegated until we have won the semi final, then tell everybody we lied.
I like your style, Andy.
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Why is it always the same options? They're not mutually inclusive.
Of course not. Everybody wants to win the cup and stop up. Nobody wants to get relegated with no cup. The dilemma put forward is yielding a near 50/50 result so far.
This could become more real as we progress further in the cup and potentially take our eye of the ball in the league as Wigan and Hull did in the last two years. Hull survived luckily for them.
And how many more clubs have seen their league form improve as they went on a cup run - Manchester United in 1990 being the most obvious. example.
Man U were not fighting relegation in 1990. A cup run gave them freedom. A freedom that is not afforded to us as we speak.
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Why is it always the same options? They're not mutually inclusive.
Of course not. Everybody wants to win the cup and stop up. Nobody wants to get relegated with no cup. The dilemma put forward is yielding a near 50/50 result so far.
This could become more real as we progress further in the cup and potentially take our eye of the ball in the league as Wigan and Hull did in the last two years. Hull survived luckily for them.
And how many more clubs have seen their league form improve as they went on a cup run - Manchester United in 1990 being the most obvious. example.
Man U were not fighting relegation in 1990. A cup run gave them freedom. A freedom that is not afforded to us as we speak.
Oh yes they were. This time in 1990 they were seventeenth in the league, a point off the relegation places.
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No way. No.
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Why is it always the same options? They're not mutually inclusive.
Of course not. Everybody wants to win the cup and stop up. Nobody wants to get relegated with no cup. The dilemma put forward is yielding a near 50/50 result so far.
This could become more real as we progress further in the cup and potentially take our eye of the ball in the league as Wigan and Hull did in the last two years. Hull survived luckily for them.
And how many more clubs have seen their league form improve as they went on a cup run - Manchester United in 1990 being the most obvious. example.
Man U were not fighting relegation in 1990. A cup run gave them freedom. A freedom that is not afforded to us as we speak.
Oh yes they were. They were no higher in the league than us.
Just checked and maybe that is correct. Recent form has flew in the face of this however.
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The FA cup is the holy grail for many of us, particularly those of a certain age.
But, relegation can never be a good thing, and there are no guarantees that we would return quickly.
Relegation? NO, NEVER.
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So hacked by the PL, I would now take the cup.
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Why is it always the same options? They're not mutually inclusive.
Of course not. Everybody wants to win the cup and stop up. Nobody wants to get relegated with no cup. The dilemma put forward is yielding a near 50/50 result so far.
This could become more real as we progress further in the cup and potentially take our eye of the ball in the league as Wigan and Hull did in the last two years. Hull survived luckily for them.
And how many more clubs have seen their league form improve as they went on a cup run - Manchester United in 1990 being the most obvious. example.
Man U were not fighting relegation in 1990. A cup run gave them freedom. A freedom that is not afforded to us as we speak.
Oh yes they were. They were no higher in the league than us.
Just checked and maybe that is correct. Recent form has flew in the face of this however.
It made no difference to Portsmouth in 2010 or Stoke in 2011. This time last season Hull were 13th and finished 16th - hardly a massive slump. At the same time in 2013 Wigan were 19th and finished 18th.
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No thanks.
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Why is it always the same options? They're not mutually inclusive.
Of course not. Everybody wants to win the cup and stop up. Nobody wants to get relegated with no cup. The dilemma put forward is yielding a near 50/50 result so far.
This could become more real as we progress further in the cup and potentially take our eye of the ball in the league as Wigan and Hull did in the last two years. Hull survived luckily for them.
And how many more clubs have seen their league form improve as they went on a cup run - Manchester United in 1990 being the most obvious. example.
Man U were not fighting relegation in 1990. A cup run gave them freedom. A freedom that is not afforded to us as we speak.
Oh yes they were. They were no higher in the league than us.
Just checked and maybe that is correct. Recent form has flew in the face of this however.
It made no difference to Portsmouth in 2010 or Stoke in 2011. This time last season Hull were 13th and finished 16th - hardly a massive slump. At the same time in 2013 Wigan were 19th and finished 18th.
The other side of that is Palace went out in R4 last year whilst in 16th place and finished 11th. The cup exit probably had nothing to do with that or probably everything?
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The leagues a crock of shit, FA Cup win would be handsome and long over due.
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No, its premier league status for me
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The other side of that is Palace went out in R4 last year whilst in 16th place and finished 11th. The cup exit probably had nothing to do with that or probably everything?
And what happened to every other club who went out early? Us for example.
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It's all a bit early anyway, given that there's still 6 or 7 teams in it that would be favourites to beat us, and the remainder would fancy their chances against us.
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6 or 7? Manure, Arsenal, Liverpool. West Ham next best side left and at VP I doubt they'd be favourites.
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I am just enjoying the idea we might do decent at something this season.
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I'd say Stoke and Palace would be favourites against us on current form, whilst Albion and Leicester would be 50:50 calls.
And we've recently shown we have a terrible record against lower league teams, so I wouldn't be overly optimistic against them either. Bournemouth dropped 8 players and gave us a decent game.
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None of those at VP would be favourites.
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The FA cup is the holy grail for many of us, particularly those of a certain age.
But, relegation can never be a good thing, and there are no guarantees that we would return quickly.
Relegation? NO, NEVER.
very much in agreement with this. Relegation today could spell financial disaster and there is no guarantee at all of return. Lots of for PL rusting vessels floating in the Championship and League one waters. I have no desire to join them.
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None of those at VP would be favourites.
Why? Villa Park is hardly a fortress.
Nearly every remaining team would fancy us in the draw.
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None of those at VP would be favourites.
Why? Villa Park is hardly a fortress.
Nearly every remaining team would fancy us in the draw.
Because none of them were, or will be, favourites in the league games at VP.
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How sad is this that the premier league money machne has such a hold over fans they would take 17th over actually winning the grandest cup competition of them all.
FA Cup for me every time. We can come back from relegation in 58 years. We have not won the cup in that time. I would bloody love it if we won the cup.
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Well S
How sad is this that the premier league money machne has such a hold over fans they would take 17th over actually winning the grandest cup competition of them all.
FA Cup for me every time. We can come back from relegation in 58 years. We have not won the cup in that time. I would bloody love it if we won the cup.
That's what I think, you just put it much better than I tried earlier.
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I've had this discussion a few times amongst friends and my answer every time has been survival. I actually think it's a bit selfish of people to want the cup instead.
Really though, I expect a club like ours to be able to stay up and compete in the cups.
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How sad is this that the premier league money machne has such a hold over fans they would take 17th over actually winning the grandest cup competition of them all.
That's a misleading way to put it, though.
it isn't about finishing 17th v finishing 18th, it is about being relegated and not being relegated, far from just a question of one position higher.
FA Cup for me every time. We can come back from relegation in 58 years. We have not won the cup in that time. I would bloody love it if we won the cup.
58 years outside the top flight would be significantly more damaging than 58 years without winning the cup. I also fear that if we went down, it wouldn't be a Newcastle style "bounce straight back" situation, but more likely a Leeds style "fucked for a generation" scenario.
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As much as I'd love to win the cup, being in the Prem, these days, is better for the club's present and future than a one-off cup win.
I want my club to last forever!
UTV!
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Wigan are the only team to win the FA Cup and get relegated. 5 other sides have reached the final and gone down. So 6 finalists since 1888 have had a run to the final and gone down. Doesn't seem too detrimental to me.
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Fucking right I would. I've not seen us win the FA cup and its the one I really want. I still have nightmares about the 2000 final.
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No, but for a club like Aston Villa, this shouldn't be a dilemma. We ought to challenge for cups without being relegated, we're not Wigan or Small Heath.
Yep. It would be a genuine dilemma though if you went on a Sandwell or Small Heath board and asked them if they would rather win the FA Cup or see Villa relegated.
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Wigan are the only team to win the FA Cup and get relegated. 5 other sides have reached the final and gone down. So 6 finalists since 1888 have had a run to the final and gone down. Doesn't seem too detrimental to me.
I agree with you for what it's worth, but the hypothetical question raised in the OP is would you pay the price of relegation to win the FA Cup.
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None of those at VP would be favourites.
Bournemouth were many peoples favourites going in to todays game.
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Wigan and Small Heath are good examples of why you don't want a trophy at the expense of going down. Also big clubs we have competed with at the top of the PL who after relegation have been gone a long time like Wednesday, Forest and Leeds.
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How sad is this that the premier league money machne has such a hold over fans they would take 17th over actually winning the grandest cup competition of them all.
That's a misleading way to put it, though.
it isn't about finishing 17th v finishing 18th, it is about being relegated and not being relegated, far from just a question of one position higher.
FA Cup for me every time. We can come back from relegation in 58 years. We have not won the cup in that time. I would bloody love it if we won the cup.
58 years outside the top flight would be significantly more damaging than 58 years without winning the cup. I also fear that if we went down, it wouldn't be a Newcastle style "bounce straight back" situation, but more likely a Leeds style "fucked for a generation" scenario.
Misleading maybe, but it is the way I look at it. We could easily go down anyway this season, our goal record and general play would give that a genuine concern. How long it would take to come back and if it was a generation is a total unknown. If it meant hundreds of people being jobless behind the scenes then obviously the survival would be more important, but there is a large part of me that would like to think football is about the emotion of your club winning. We have had very little to cheer, and a cup win would give us that. I don't think we are anywhere near as bad financially as Leeds were now thankfully, and I do think that we would bounce fairly swiftly as the players likely to stay would be at about their level. All ifs and buts, but I know 2 Wigan fans that wouldn't change it, and a nose who would not swap their league cup for the premier league either, and enjoys watching them in the Championship way more than in the premier league.
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None of those at VP would be favourites.
Bournemouth were many peoples favourites going in to todays game.
"Many peoples' favourite" is irrelevant though. Betting odds dictate which team is or isn't the favourite, and Bournemouth were priced at around 3-1 today, longer than the best price available on us.
It wouldn't have been a huge shock if we'd drawn or lost, but according to the odds we were expected to win today.
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I would honestly embrace relegation, if you could guarantee winning the FA Cup. Villa have never been long out of the top flight and I wouldn't envisage a long spell in a lower league. But, the FA Cup would probably be once in a lifetime. It's the absolute holy grail as far as I'm concerned.
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I think getting relegated would cause a large-scale change in the club's structure which could potentially be for the better, and I too would crave to see us win the cup.
I don't know if I'll ever see Villa win a trophy in my lifetime but I know we could bounce back from relegation.
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It's funny I was thinking similar thoughts a few days ago. I think I would trade a season in the championship for an 8th FA cup win.
I've always promised myself if we get to the FA cup final, I will come back for it (if I can get a ticket). Need to purge the memories of 2000.
What a fantastic debut goal from Carles yesterday by the way. That was pretty special. Lots of empty seats though by the looks of it- what the crowd? It looked about 30k.
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27k
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None of those at VP would be favourites.
Why? Villa Park is hardly a fortress.
Nearly every remaining team would fancy us in the draw.
i think a home draw in the next round against anybody would see a decent crowd getting behind the team. Old cliche I know, but I really think a home win in the next round could kickstart the season.
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How sad is this that the premier league money machne has such a hold over fans they would take 17th over actually winning the grandest cup competition of them all.
That's a misleading way to put it, though.
it isn't about finishing 17th v finishing 18th, it is about being relegated and not being relegated, far from just a question of one position higher.
FA Cup for me every time. We can come back from relegation in 58 years. We have not won the cup in that time. I would bloody love it if we won the cup.
58 years outside the top flight would be significantly more damaging than 58 years without winning the cup. I also fear that if we went down, it wouldn't be a Newcastle style "bounce straight back" situation, but more likely a Leeds style "fucked for a generation" scenario.
i reckon it would take us 2 seasons to get back this time if we did go down. Makes it a bit less appealing when you think if it like that, but I reckon I'd still take it.
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PL survival for me, close voting though.
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I don't want Villa outside the top flight and I don't really see why we can't survive and win the cup.
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Before I replied I took a quick look at where Wigan are in the Championship. Then, with regret, I voted for stability.
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Amazed at how many would take relegation for the short term euphoria of an FA cup win.
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This really is a tough one, I would just about opt for survival.
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It's interesting how close it is. For me, I wouldn't like to win the FA Cup once only to get relegated, stay relegated, and never win anything again. That's a real danger.
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Amazed at how many would take relegation for the short term euphoria of an FA cup win.
I'm amazed people would swap a temporary change in divisions for the bloody FA Cup.
The FA Cup for God's sake, we're Aston Villa and we haven't won it for more than 50 years. Governments have toppled over less.
Fucking Chelsea have won it as many times as us now. It needs sorting out.
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I don't see why we can't have both. Wigan were eighteenth when they started their cup run, and finished eighteenth. It made no difference at all. If we, miraculously, make it to the cup final we will have, presumably, done so playing some decent football and accruing confidence-boosting wins.
This "you can't win league matches if you do well in the cups" attitude is all a bit 1981 Ipswich Town Bumper Book of Excuses for my liking.
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I would take the cup, it's an achievement.
Though we may survive in the PL, we are insignificant and do not get any benefit from being there other than saying "we are in the premier league", this is not an achievement, it is a chore.
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Never mind Wigan, take a look at Portsmouth today.
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No thanks
Ive never seen us win it 😠 but wouldn't be good for us
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To those season ticket holders who would rather see us reach 17th in the league than win The Cup - can I use your reference number to get a Wembley ticket if we get to the Cup Final?
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The sole purpose of a sporting club is try and win trophies.
You can add FA cup winners 2015 to the roll of honour.
You can't add avoided relegation for another year.
As one of those who can remember winning the FA cup being just as big a thing as being crowned champions, and who need to see us win it "to complete the set." I'd take it in a heart beat and take my chances next season.
I think a more likely dilemma would be how much slack would Lambert get next season if we stayed up and won the FA cup by "winning ugly" as we've done this season on the rare occasions we've got a result.
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No thanks
Ive never seen us win it 😠 but wouldn't be good for us
That is possibly the maddest thing I have ever read here.
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The sole purpose of a sporting club is try and win trophies.
You can add FA cup winners 2015 to the roll of honour.
You can't add avoided relegation for another year.
As one of those who can remember winning the FA cup being just as big a thing as being crowned champions, and who need to see us win it "to complete the set." I'd take it in a heart beat and take my chances next season.
I think a more likely dilemma would be how much slack would Lambert get next season if we stayed up and won the FA cup by "winning ugly" as we've done this season on the rare occasions we've got a result.
If we got relegated, we would lose those half-decent players we've got, and won't be challenging for another cup for a long time.
I'd rather we stayed in the Premier League, which gives us the cash to build a better team, which gives us a better chance of winning cups in future years.
If we go down, then our status as a "big club" is diminished, and with a disinterested owner, there's no guarantee we'll come straight back up. And we won't win next years FA Cup or League Cup from the Championship.
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It's all very short - termism .
Maintaining our PL preserve is the be all at present.
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If we could guarantee it would be only one season in the Championship most of us would take the cup. Problem is there is no guarantee of coming straight back up.
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The purpose of entering competitions is to win them, not to avoid being the worst.
Therefore the FA Cup has to be the option to choose.
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Can we add Cleverley scoring the winning hat-trick to the Dilemma?
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If we could guarantee it would be only one season in the Championship most of us would take the cup. Problem is there is no guarantee of coming straight back up.
If it was GUARANTEED we would come back of course. I would love a season in the championship knowing we are going to get promoted as I suspect it would be a superb season and right good laugh.
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The cup please.
For purely selfish reasons, it would pretty much complete the set I've seen us win (EC, League champs,League Cup).
I'd rather win something NOW, rather than live on the promise of "if we stay up, we can build and possibly,just possibly win something in the future".
Face facts - the FA Cup, devalued as it is, is still the biggest thing I can see us winning.
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Never in a million years!
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Never in a million years!
57 actually.
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It's all very short - termism .
Maintaining our PL preserve is the be all at present.
To what end?
Perpetual mid-table mediocrity?
No thanks. I'll take the glory where I can find it, because lets face it, the chances of replicating the high points of my youth are somewhat slimmer than Valdmir Putin getting voted Man Of The Decade in Kiev.
Something approaching the warm glow of a semblance of success of my twenties.
The problem with jam tomorrow is.
1. There's no bloody fruit to make it from.
2. The bread that was ear-marked to be enjoyed with said jam is already mouldy.
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The sole purpose of a sporting club is try and win trophies.
You can add FA cup winners 2015 to the roll of honour.
You can't add avoided relegation for another year.
As one of those who can remember winning the FA cup being just as big a thing as being crowned champions, and who need to see us win it "to complete the set." I'd take it in a heart beat and take my chances next season.
I think a more likely dilemma would be how much slack would Lambert get next season if we stayed up and won the FA cup by "winning ugly" as we've done this season on the rare occasions we've got a result.
If we got relegated, we would lose those half-decent players we've got, and won't be challenging for another cup for a long time.
I'd rather we stayed in the Premier League, which gives us the cash to build a better team, which gives us a better chance of winning cups in future years.
If we go down, then our status as a "big club" is diminished, and with a disinterested owner, there's no guarantee we'll come straight back up. And we won't win next years FA Cup or League Cup from the Championship.
I totally agree with Mr Sexwhale.
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Look at Wigan now- be interesting to ask their supporters what they would choose in hindsight.
I did this, okay so I only know one Wigan fan so it's not exactly a representative sample, but the answer was that basically he would have taken that day out and watching his team win the Cup over everything that has happened since. Maybe it's because he "only supports Wigan" (his words) and being in the Premier League was a bit of a bonus anyway, while many Villa fans see us as a club that should never, in any circumstances, be below the top division?
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I bet there's no half and half scarves in the championship
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Look at Wigan now- be interesting to ask their supporters what they would choose in hindsight.
I did this, okay so I only know one Wigan fan so it's not exactly a representative sample, but the answer was that basically he would have taken that day out and watching his team win the Cup over everything that has happened since. Maybe it's because he "only supports Wigan" (his words) and being in the Premier League was a bit of a bonus anyway, while many Villa fans see us as a club that should never, in any circumstances, be below the top division?
Precisely, has it gotten to the state where our ambitions are no better than the likes of Wigan?
If I supported Wigan or Portsmouth, I'd take the FA Cup every time; but I don't - and winning cups whilst staying in the top league should not be a dilemma at all for a club of our size and status.
Furthermore, if we did go down, Lerner will find it impossible to find a decent owner - the same sort of clowns who look at Leeds, will be eyeing us up.
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Look at Wigan now- be interesting to ask their supporters what they would choose in hindsight.
I did this, okay so I only know one Wigan fan so it's not exactly a representative sample, but the answer was that basically he would have taken that day out and watching his team win the Cup over everything that has happened since. Maybe it's because he "only supports Wigan" (his words) and being in the Premier League was a bit of a bonus anyway, while many Villa fans see us as a club that should never, in any circumstances, be below the top division?
Precisely, has it gotten to the state where our ambitions are no better than the likes of Wigan?
If I supported Wigan or Portsmouth, I'd take the FA Cup every time; but I don't - and winning cups whilst staying in the top league should not be a dilemma at all for a club of our size and status.
Furthermore, if we did go down, Lerner will find it impossible to find a decent owner - the same sort of clowns who look at Leeds, will be eyeing us up.
I don't think anyone's saying it should be a choice we should have to contemplate. It's more a devils advocate type question, where IF you had to choose, which option would you take?
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Precisely, has it gotten to the state where our ambitions are no better than the likes of Wigan?
What is Lerner's ambition at the moment? Seems to me that he'll consider it a success if we merely retain our premiership status. Which is pretty much what Wigan's ambition always was when they were dining at the top table.
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I'd love us to win the FA cup, but I couldn't fully enjoy it if we were relegated. I want to celebrate us winning the FA cup and ideally be completely safe by the time that happens.
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It's funny I was thinking similar thoughts a few days ago. I think I would trade a season in the championship for an 8th FA cup win.
That's not the question, though, is it?
If he had said "would you trade a season in the Championship for the FA Cup", then a lot of people would respond differently.
I know I'd trade missing a season in the top flight for the cup, but re the question asked, there's no guarantee of it being one season, and that's where it gets tricky.
There are loads of clubs of not hugely dissimilar stature to Villa, with histories as long, who have been relegated and stayed relegated for a decade in some cases.
I wouldn't swap winning anything to spend a large chunk of my life with Villa not in the top flight.
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Precisely, has it gotten to the state where our ambitions are no better than the likes of Wigan?
What is Lerner's ambition at the moment? Seems to me that he'll consider it a success if we merely retain our premiership status. Which is pretty much what Wigan's ambition always was when they were dining at the top table.
Our ambition goes no further than staying up. Hence the lack of ambition in the transfer market, but more obviously, the acceptance of dreadful results which keeps Lambert in a job.
Very similar to Wigan's ambitions.
We're a bigger club than Wigan, but big clubs show a bit of ambition, something which we haven't done for a long time.
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In proportion to their size, Wigan show a great deal more ambition than Aston Villa.
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I really don't understand.
We've not won a trophy in nearly 20 years, that being the third best domestic trophy. It's 33 years since we won the biggest one any club can win and 34 since the biggest domestic trophy. It's 57 years since we won the FA Cup. The longest drought for any of the competitions (other than the UEFA Cup) and the best knockout competition in the world.
How on earth can building for winning in the future be ahead of winning right now?
If we were to be relegated, it may take us a season, it may take us 20. But given that it's nearly 20 since we won anything, would you really, honestly like to just make up the numbers rather than win a trophy?
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I wouldn't swap winning anything to spend a large chunk of my life with Villa not in the top flight.
Why not?
You'd still have a team to support (and more games to support them in too), what is so great about the Premier League? I don't pay to watch other teams on the (very odd I admit) occasions I go to Villa Park, I'd be just as happy to watch us play Brentford as Manchester United.
Meanwhile I would sell my family into slavery to get to see us lift the FA Cup.
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I wouldn't swap winning anything to spend a large chunk of my life with Villa not in the top flight.
Why not?
You'd still have a team to support (and more games to support them in too), what is so great about the Premier League? I don't pay to watch other teams on the (very odd I admit) occasions I go to Villa Park, I'd be just as happy to watch us play Brentford as Manchester United.
Meanwhile I would sell my family into slavery to get to see us lift the FA Cup.
You really, REALLY shouldn't have said that.
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It's funny I was thinking similar thoughts a few days ago. I think I would trade a season in the championship for an 8th FA cup win.
That's not the question, though, is it?
If he had said "would you trade a season in the Championship for the FA Cup", then a lot of people would respond differently.
I know I'd trade missing a season in the top flight for the cup, but re the question asked, there's no guarantee of it being one season, and that's where it gets tricky.
There are loads of clubs of not hugely dissimilar stature to Villa, with histories as long, who have been relegated and stayed relegated for a decade in some cases.
I wouldn't swap winning anything to spend a large chunk of my life with Villa not in the top flight.
Agreed. Aston Villa are a Premier League club and nothing less than that should be acceptable.
I'd love the FA Cup, but certainly not at the expense of our PL status.
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Obviously both would be nice. Christ we've waited long enough.
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I wonder how much of a consolation having seen Villa win the FA Cup in '57 was to those watching us spend 8 years out the top flight. Not much judging by the all the sub 20K crowds we were getting.
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It's funny I was thinking similar thoughts a few days ago. I think I would trade a season in the championship for an 8th FA cup win.
That's not the question, though, is it?
If he had said "would you trade a season in the Championship for the FA Cup", then a lot of people would respond differently.
I know I'd trade missing a season in the top flight for the cup, but re the question asked, there's no guarantee of it being one season, and that's where it gets tricky.
There are loads of clubs of not hugely dissimilar stature to Villa, with histories as long, who have been relegated and stayed relegated for a decade in some cases.
I wouldn't swap winning anything to spend a large chunk of my life with Villa not in the top flight.
Agreed. Aston Villa are a Premier League club and nothing less than that should be acceptable.
I'd love the FA Cup, but certainly not at the expense of our PL status.
But what's the point? This, to me, is the problem; this is why the Champions League is also shit. Clubs giving their eye teeth, just to finish 4th and get to play other big teams with no hope of winning.
It's madness I tell you, madness!
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Prem is the place to be - if we go down we'll probably never come back.
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I think the two options are loaded. I want to win the FA Cup because it's the Holy Grail it feels as if I'm empty until i see it happen. I don't care about avoiding relegation because of the option given it's because as a Villa fan I believe the Championship is beneath us as a club. yes there are arguments around us not coming straight back up but we also may well do so. I think we would. However, I don't want to go down because it's not in our DNA. We've spent the vast majority of our history in the top flight and that's where we belong.
Questions like this don't resonate with me because I take being in the top flight as a given. Of course the reality is a little bit more tenuous these days but it's who we are. Cups are what we strive for but I'd never swap who we are for a cup. that's for the Wigan's of this world. i never want to be a Wigan.
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But that makes it sound like you're happy with just existing in the Premier League.
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I didn't say I was happy with the way things are going. But I'd rather be shit in the Premier league than a good Championship outfit who are always there or thereabouts.
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What other club the size of Villa has gone down and stayed down for a decade in the premiership era ?
Leeds were in a far worse state when they went down, Bankcrupt or near on,
Sheff Wednesday would be the only one that bears any revalence to us
I don't think we'd be down for long if God forbid it ever happened
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To be fair neither Wednesday or Leeds are comparable to us in terms of 'size'. Wednesday have got a big ground and Leeds have European history but other than that they are nowhere near us.
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What other club the size of Villa has gone down and stayed down for a decade in the premiership era ?
Leeds were in a far worse state when they went down, Bankcrupt or near on,
Sheff Wednesday would be the only one that bears any revalence to us
I don't think we'd be down for long if God forbid it ever happened
You're right. We're one of the few teams that have been ever present in the Prem, wages have been reduced in the last few years, so I doubt we would be in financial turmoil that Leeds were. Leeds are the only other club I can think of that should really be in the Prem, they're a genuine big club, the rest, your Wolves, Boro's, Sheff Weds, Ipswich, Derby etc have all been yoyo clubs in the Prem era.
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Leeds were absolutely bollocksed by doing that lease arrangement for players and gambled their future on regular Champions League qualification. Sheffield Wednesday were one of the Bradford/Leicester/Coventry type of club who took much the same gamble of spending more than their income on staying in the Premier League. The ITV Digital collapse didn't help, either.
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Absolutely win the FA Cup.
Football is about winning, not surviving.
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Leeds were absolutely bollocksed by doing that lease arrangement for players and gambled their future on regular Champions League qualification. Sheffield Wednesday were one of the Bradford/Leicester/Coventry type of club who took much the same gamble of spending more than their income on staying in the Premier League. The ITV Digital collapse didn't help, either.
I can still recall the signing that Leeds made that really did it for me. Robbie Fowler. he wasn't even going to be in the starting 11. Leeds are a big club, but I think we're bigger, and we were going nowhere near the transfer prices they were spending. Ferdinand was something like £18 mill wasn't he?
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Leeds spunking all that money on Seth Johnson is still amusing. Then again, I remember when we were complaining about how far ahead of us Leeds were and that we wished we had Risdale. Didn't we even applaud him when he arrived at a game at VP when he was at Leeds?
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Villa have never been long out of the top flight and I wouldn't envisage a long spell in a lower league.
I watched the Villa from the age of 10 until I was 18 out of the top flight. It seemed a bloody long time to me.
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Leeds spunking all that money on Seth Johnson is still amusing. Then again, I remember when we were complaining about how far ahead of us Leeds were and that we wished we had Risdale. Didn't we even applaud him when he arrived at a game at VP when he was at Leeds?
Did we ever. This is a great article about what happened after that. http://www.theguardian.com/football/2004/mar/07/sport.features1
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Villa have never been long out of the top flight and I wouldn't envisage a long spell in a lower league.
I watched the Villa from the age of 10 until I was 18 out of the top flight. It seemed a bloody long time to me.
Yeah, and I well remember seeing more Wolves and WBA scarves than Villa in places like Selly Oak during that period. They were the glamour teams that you could watch every week on the TV.
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I think the Seth Johnson wage stories are a bit urban legend but Mark Viduka was on about £80k a week back then. Monstrous money for the time.
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But that makes it sound like you're happy with just existing in the Premier League.
I'll take that over just existing in the Championship.
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Prem is the place to be - if we go down we'll probably never come back.
Crazy talk
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I'd take the cup win. There, I've said it.
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I want both.
And why not?
Thanks to Barry Norman and the band for this inspirational post. :)
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I want both.
And why not?
Thanks to Barry Norman and the band for this inspirational post. :)
Indeed.
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Relegation just isn't acceptable or desired under any circumstances for Villa, in my opinion. I've experienced relegation once and I never want to experience it again! It's a permanent stain in the record book and it hurts.
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I want both.
And why not?
Thanks to Barry Norman and the band for this inspirational post. :)
Indeed.
Another Bazza moment to remember.
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Just think how great it will be on 30th May when those claret and blue ribbons are on the Cup and we can put this thread to bed forever.
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Don't see why we have to follow Wigan and SHA and have to get relegated and win something.
It's not impossible to win something and be relatively stable in the league, Swansea did it two seasons ago so no I wouldn't as getting relegated is still a massive failure and that would be the reality once June and July pass on and the hypothetical cup win fades.
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Just think how great it will be on 30th May when those claret and blue ribbons are on the Cup and we can put this thread to bed forever.
And having finished comfortably in mid table.
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My Dad has followed the Villa since 1959 when he first moved to Brum from Ireland. He's 77 now and seeing us lift the FA Cup would mean he would die a happy man. At the rate we're going I'm 45 and could probably say the same. Put it this way being at Wembley to watch us beat Man U 3-1 remains one of my favourite Villa memories and stays in the mind far longer than the despair of relegation. And that was just the League Cup that I've seen us lift 4 times.
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Might resurrect this thread as both options are still viable. My thoughts haven't changed in that I'd take a cup win at all costs.
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My thoughts haven't changed either - let's do both.
From a practical point of view, the dilemma would occur if we needed to beat Burnley in the last game to stay up. If Sherwood rested our best players and we didn't get the result we needed, the atmosphere that week would be poisonous - and we'd probably get our battered at Wembley.
Also, we're by no means favourites to beat Arsenal, even if we play well; so we need to get Premier League safety in the bag. If we got relegated AND lost the Final, that could destroy us for years.
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League survival all the way.
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FA Cup is more important to me than my wife right now.
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I don't think we'd actually implode if we went down. Financially we're sound and we've got players who could do well at that level. Benteke would obviously go, whilst Vlaar wouldn't stay. I don't think we'd have the problems Wigan have. I'd see us more akin to West Ham or Newcastle. We'd be up in 1-2 years, particularly as I think Sherwood has a lot of promise.
I would really love the FA cup. This year could be the first and only time in my life-time so honestly, by a whisker I'd take the cup.
That said it would be gutting to be in the championship when we can see at the moment the seeds of something good with Sherwood. So having to wait a year (at least) to come back up would be very tough, and indeed you then have to replace the core of quality players we'll inevitably lose going down.
It's a very tough decision for me. Looking at things I don't see us ever winning the league any time soon. So our trophy success, if I as a fan ever get to experience more, will come in cups. Would I trade a year or two of championship football for an FA Cup? I probably would.
BUT... We're gonna stay up and win the cup so it's all academic.
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Just a hunch that those voting for the cup win are the ones that actually go to the majority of games.
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FA Cup is more important to me than my wife right now.
That's a given but we are talking important matters, league or cup.
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Putting it another way, the "dilemma" only exists if you have some sort of fantastical situation, where you're offered the choice by the Genie of the Lamp, The Devil or a Far East betting syndicate.
The real dilemma would be:
If we are not mathematically safe before the Burnley game, should Sherwood rest our best players for the FA Cup?
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I'd love to win the cup but it would be no disgrace to lose to Arsenal, who'll be odds on to win/retain it. But staying up means so much more. Relegation will set the club's development back years - even if we bounce straight back (which wouldn't be easy) - and also affect the chances of attracting the kind of buyers we'd like to take over next. It would be very painful to miss out on the money from the new tv deal. Plus I think it's better for the club's status to be one of the founder members of the Premier League that's never been relegated.
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FA Cup is more important to me than my wife right now.
That's a given but we are talking important matters, league or cup.
At a push, Cup, League, Wife.
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I wouldn't enjoy winning the cup if we were relegated.
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I wouldn't enjoy winning the cup if we were relegated.
Same. We simply have to stay up.
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Going to wembley knowing you've been relegated would be far from ideal. We are not Wigan FFS !
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I'd love to win the cup but it would be no disgrace to lose to Arsenal, who'll be odds on to win/retain it. But staying up means so much more. Relegation will set the club's development back years - even if we bounce straight back (which wouldn't be easy) - and also affect the chances of attracting the kind of buyers we'd like to take over next. It would be very painful to miss out on the money from the new tv deal. Plus I think it's better for the club's status to be one of the founder members of the Premier League that's never been relegated.
We are founder members of the football league and have been relegated. If they changed the set up of the league next season and the Premier League didn't exist anymore it wouldn't mean the past glories and failures are wiped from the records.
The down sides to being relegated would be money and prestige. The upside to winning the Fa Cup, well I can't put it in to words exactly but it is the most famous cup competition in the world. Staying up means financial security.
Winning the Cup means immortality for those involved and a lifetime memory for us fans. You'll never forget the day at Wembley when we took it to Arsenal, beat them on their own patch and lifted that fucking cup aloft for the first time in nearly 60years. In 15 years time you'll have forgotten a relegation, you won't have forgot the Fa Cup.
Sorry I'm in love with the cup this season, the magic is well and truly back for me.
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I wouldn't enjoy winning the cup if we were relegated.
If we do go down. Winning the cup would be a superb consolation! It would certainly pick me up over the closed season.
But any who, we're not going to get relegated (or so I tell myself...continually out loud)
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I don't see how ones relevant to the other now. We are in the cup final, its only one game at the end of the season, it has no bearing on anything until the league season is over now. This question should've been asked at round 3 or 4.
Where's the option for staying up and winning the cup?
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FA Cup is more important to me than my wife right now.
That's a given but we are talking important matters, league or cup.
At a push, Cup, League, Wife.
At a push ?
Mate you need to get some focus into your life
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This question should've been asked at round 3 or 4.
It was, I just bumped it.
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If we get relegated I dont think I could even stomach another trip to wembley.
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I truly think relegation would kill the joy of the cup final. We need to get out of this position very quickly.