Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: wozwebs on January 03, 2015, 08:38:26 PM
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Might get some flak for this but should we be looking at ourselves (and I include myself in this) as playing a part in the current malaise / coma the whole club is in? Took my wife to the game against Palace as our little one was a mascot. He had a lovely day and was well looked after. She has no real interest in Football and hasn't been since the late 90's and during the 1st half, sat in the Trinity Road by the tunnel, she said to me "What's happened to the famous Holte End, they're not singing at all?" I said "Because they don't give us anything to sing about" and she replied "So you only bother to sing when you're winning, why don't you get behind them, the encouragement might help them score?"
Has she got a point (never thought I'd say that lol)?
I'm a season ticket holder in K5 Holte End Upper Tier and the atmosphere has been awful for a few years now as you all know. You can hardly hear the Holte from other parts of the ground and I know the current regime is currently sapping all of our enthusiasm as the football we are watching is abysmal but shouldn't we be doing our part too?
I was debating about going tomorrow but thought I'll go and get behind them so bought tickets while in town earlier. When we go away we are always great, goes without saying, but I think we, as supporters can do more too at home. If you hate Lambert, Lerner, some or all of the players it's still Aston Villa we love and they will all come and go but it's still OUR club to get behind and as supporters it's our job to support. Not having a go at anyone, just trying to add a home of positivity in current dour times.
Come on you Lions!!
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The Revolution Will Not Be Televised,
not if you are wearing a half and half scarf besides.
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Modern football, innit?
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Lots of Holte enders have sacked it off. I'm one and can think of many others who can't be arsed going / haven't renewed.
Lerner and Lambert are eroding the support. There's no entertainment or hope for the future
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I think it's a dangerous game when you start questioning the supporters who pay their money and turn up in their thousands, despite everything.
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I thought this thread was going to be about some organised action / protest ?
"Are we doing enough"?? Indeed
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The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
I'll find a stream online to watch it - Like I do every week :)
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The days of unconditional support - in the sense of money forked out - ended a while ago, probably roughly the same time that going to a football match became an expensive pursuit rather than one for which you paid a couple of quid.
In the Sky era there has been a gradual move, in practical terms, from "supporters" to "customers", in many senses.
The fans weren't the ones who started this, the clubs were, and this ultimately leads to a situation where, you're treating people like customers - with the cold hearted profit based mindset that this implies, where it is all about the money they can get you to part with - rather than like fans, ie people who, instead of being consumers of a service who make rational purchasing decisions, are emotionally and psychologically attached to the club, a relationship which works both ways, the fans love "you" and this is the main driving force in the club-supporters relationship.
When you then start charging 40 or 50 quid or more to attend a match, and you also rake in the huge amounts of money on offer to allow your matches to be shown on television, then you really change the relationship which has been at the heart of football for over 100 years.
You (and by "you" I mean clubs) can not in one breath expect - random example - a family of mom dad and a few kids to fork out up to 200 quid to attend a football match and expect there to be no change in the relationship between you and the people sat there in the Holte End. It just doesn't work that way.
Take our current season, there's a big, big difference between playing 20 league games and only scoring 11 goals when you've got people paying the equivalent of the price of a few pints and doing the same when people are paying the equivalent of their supermarket food bill for the week.
The flip side of charging people enormous amounts of money to come and watch you is that you change the dynamic between you and the people in question. It isn't just a "keep increasing the cost, and don't worry about the quality" situation, you've got to give them reasons to keep coming back. You can't do that and then expect the fans to be the ones who give the club a lift, it just doesn't work that way anymore.
This current mess is a mess of the club's making. The falls in attendances have been pretty noticeable, but I honestly hope the club are shitting themselves about it, because they really need to be.
I can't talk for anyone else, but I have gone, in the course of a decade or a bit more, from season ticket and lots of away matches a season, to picking and choosing games and going to quite a few, to picking and choosing and deciding not to go to any (this season).
I wouldn't expect the club to give too much of a shit about me, but they should be more than a bit worried about the fact that there are a lot of people in a similar situation, people who have sensed the total lack of ambition and decided that they're not going to play along with it any more.
I wonder how many other people on here there are who have gone from season ticket or attending lots of games to just not bothering in a short amount of time? Quite a few, I reckon.
Until the club give people like that a reason to come back and keep coming back, things will not start to get better.
Think about the last couple of fixtures. If there were people at the Sunderland and Palace games who maybe had never been before, or hadn't been in a while, how likely do we think they are to want to go back after having seen the almost total lack of clue in evidence on the pitch?
The chairman himself has admitted he's lost interest. How can he possibly expect other people to feel differently?
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I was reading something on line today, where a genuine (not just a post Abramovich supporter) Chelsea supporter was bemoaning the cost of attending matches, and that the traditional supporters were being priced out of attending games.
If Chelsea supporters are not happy with modern football then something really is wrong, or modern football is changing and we just get on with it.
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I read about a couple of expat villains from oz who are over for Sunderland / palace and Blackpool .
Jesus I hope tomorrow is better for them
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Indeed, i think the days of passing off boring games as being part and parcel of being a football fan have gone.
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For me it is the cost. I'm earning more money these days than ever before, however I really don't feel like parting with £30+ for a ticket to watch the Villa. I just don't feel that the entertainment is a good enough return on money spent. There's loads of people that go for the social aspect and because going down the Villa is a hobby, which is flipping awesome frankly. They're better fans than I am, and I mean that.
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There must be a tipping point where the gate receipts become a small enough proportion of total income that it would be better for ticket prices to return to something reasonable resulting in less prawn sandwiches and more youngsters who are up for it. The free newspapers/timeout are the model I'd compare it to - commercially it is better for them to be free and boast of a greater circulation (= advertising revenue etc) than to charge a nominal amount. The reduced ticket price could be counter balanced by an increase in income and importantly better entertainment before the game - I dunno better bars / street food / craft beers / early kick off matches etc.
The problem is Villa tickets are pretty cheap anyway yet the product on show is so dire that I've not been this year.
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There must be a tipping point where the gate receipts become a small enough proportion of total income that it would be better for ticket prices to return to something reasonable resulting in less prawn sandwiches and more youngsters who are up for it. The free newspapers/timeout are the model I'd compare it to - commercially it is better for them to be free and boast of a greater circulation (= advertising revenue etc) than to charge a nominal amount. The reduced ticket price could be counter balanced by an increase in income and importantly better entertainment before the game - I dunno better bars / street food / craft beers / early kick off matches etc.
The problem is Villa tickets are pretty cheap anyway yet the product on show is so dire that I've not been this year.
To an extent I agree with lower ticket prices being (more or less) subsidised by tv and advertising money, but where does that leave smaller clubs that rely on gate money?
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There must be a tipping point where the gate receipts become a small enough proportion of total income that it would be better for ticket prices to return to something reasonable resulting in less prawn sandwiches and more youngsters who are up for it. The free newspapers/timeout are the model I'd compare it to - commercially it is better for them to be free and boast of a greater circulation (= advertising revenue etc) than to charge a nominal amount. The reduced ticket price could be counter balanced by an increase in income and importantly better entertainment before the game - I dunno better bars / street food / craft beers / early kick off matches etc.
The problem is Villa tickets are pretty cheap anyway yet the product on show is so dire that I've not been this year.
To an extent I agree with lower ticket prices being (more or less) subsidised by tv and advertising money, but where does that leave smaller clubs that rely on gate money?
You'd hope their wages and costs are geared to suit their income. I heard a random comment on 5live today during their build up to the 3rd round and they suggested that most amateur clubs/lower divisions are run much better now and are cutting their cloth accordingly. I'm not sure how true that is, but the suggestion was that sustainability is possible even with out TV money.
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Read the title of this thread expecting suggestions for some kind of organised protest.I now feel very sad as the realisation of the futility of taking such action in today's game.I still go but out of a sense of duty or habit,definitely not out of enjoyment,don't blame the fans ,I think given the results and performances served up in the last 4 years we can have a clear conscience.
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There must be a tipping point where the gate receipts become a small enough proportion of total income that it would be better for ticket prices to return to something reasonable resulting in less prawn sandwiches and more youngsters who are up for it. The free newspapers/timeout are the model I'd compare it to - commercially it is better for them to be free and boast of a greater circulation (= advertising revenue etc) than to charge a nominal amount. The reduced ticket price could be counter balanced by an increase in income and importantly better entertainment before the game - I dunno better bars / street food / craft beers / early kick off matches etc.
The problem is Villa tickets are pretty cheap anyway yet the product on show is so dire that I've not been this year.
To an extent I agree with lower ticket prices being (more or less) subsidised by tv and advertising money, but where does that leave smaller clubs that rely on gate money?
You'd hope their wages and costs are geared to suit their income. I heard a random comment on 5live today during their build up to the 3rd round and they suggested that most amateur clubs/lower divisions are run much better now and are cutting their cloth accordingly. I'm not sure how true that is, but the suggestion was that sustainability is possible even with out TV money.
It's not true at all. Hereford and Salisbury City were both kicked out of the Conference last summer due to their finances and have since gone out of business.
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I agree with all the above also, it's just the fans who have decided to turn up, while we are there shouldn't we get behind them more in terms of noise, singing etc.
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Ticket price isn't everything though. Or rather cheaper prices isn't. You (meaning all of us) can be in the Holte End tomorrow for an FA Cup game for the same price it costs to stand somewhere like Kiddy and watch a Conference game. The attendance tomorrow will probably be our second lowest, maybe even lowest, attendance of the season. Its challenger for lowest attendance is another cheap ticket cup game.
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And something I wrote a couple of months ago that makes you realise how little ticket sales mean to a club now. Unlike the olden days when every club had a break even attendance figure, and were in trouble if they weren't averaging that number.
Match going fans are pretty insignificant financially to clubs now. Imagine you go to most games a season, and spend say £2,000 a year doing so. Do that for 50 years. Congrats, you haven't even spent enough over those 50 years to keep Darren Bent on the bench for 2 weeks.
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Read the title of this thread expecting suggestions for some kind of organised protest.I now feel very sad as the realisation of the futility of taking such action in today's game.I still go but out of a sense of duty or habit,definitely not out of enjoyment,don't blame the fans ,I think given the results and performances served up in the last 4 years we can have a clear conscience.
Indeed. In eras gone by, whenever comparable fayre had been on offer, there'd be nowhere near 30,000 of us turning up.
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You wouldn't keep going to a restaurant that kept serving up poor quality food even if it was a bit cheaper than it's rivals.
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Read the title of this thread expecting suggestions for some kind of organised protest.I now feel very sad as the realisation of the futility of taking such action in today's game.I still go but out of a sense of duty or habit,definitely not out of enjoyment,don't blame the fans ,I think given the results and performances served up in the last 4 years we can have a clear conscience.
Indeed. In eras gone by, whenever comparable fayre had been on offer, there'd be nowhere near 30,000 of us turning up.
Or when we were challenging for title and then actually won it.
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Read the title of this thread expecting suggestions for some kind of organised protest.I now feel very sad as the realisation of the futility of taking such action in today's game.I still go but out of a sense of duty or habit,definitely not out of enjoyment,don't blame the fans ,I think given the results and performances served up in the last 4 years we can have a clear conscience.
Indeed. In eras gone by, whenever comparable fayre had been on offer, there'd be nowhere near 30,000 of us turning up.
And yet tomorrow would be one of the biggest gates of the season instead of the second-smallest.
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Think it's a chicken and egg thing. If we get high tempo entertaining games in which we score goals the atmosphere would be fantastic again, as it was for periods of the Manure game. The problem is we've been served up with pretty much unrelenting dross for 3 or 4 seasons now, expectations have been lowered to the point where Premier League survival is all that matters, we don't compete against lower league opposition in the cups, the owner wants out, and the manager has resoundingly failed against what we expected, breaking endless negative records in the process. I sit towards the front of K4 and the atmosphere is like a morgue at times, and I'm part of that, but the truth is it's just boring, and I go more out of habit and to see friends I wouldn't see otherwise. When the declared ambition of the club is to be somewhere on the Deloitte Football Money League rather than towards the top of the football league, and TV money is more important than the fans' money, it's hardly surprising that fans are losing their passion.
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Yes, Dave, it would've. But we now seem to be a generation into where the league has become the be-all and end-all; I have tickets for two ten year old nephews tomorrow, both of whom have today decided they don't want to come, and no end of me extolling the beauty of The FA Cup has changed their minds. One, I fear, shall be lost forever to his sticker book and why "man city are just better than Villa", the other could still be saved, but not if he came to watch us presently. It truly saddens me, and I find myself at a loss to think of what I can do to change things.
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Yes, Dave, it would've. But we now seem to be a generation into where the league has become the be-all and end-all; I have tickets for two ten year old nephews tomorrow, both of whom have today decided they don't want to come, and no end of me extolling the beauty of The FA Cup has changed their minds. One, I fear, shall be lost forever to his sticker book and why "man city are just better than Villa", the other could still be saved, but not if he came to watch us presently. It truly saddens me, and I find myself at a loss to think of what I can do to change things.
Short of uninventing the wheel there's nothing any of us can do. As someone said, the only way to raise the FA Cup's profile would be to let Sky have it, but their way of improving it would be to take what little tradition remains and replace it with hype and glitz.
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I'm going for my first game this year (I used to go every week but quite frankly cannot afford it any more as I live up north and earn next to nothing) against Liverpool with two friends. I'm more looking forward to showing them the library and the pubs round town than the Villa - I've already apologised for what they're about to see. I'd love to see a rocking Villa Park but from what I've seen of the team lately, they can neither deserve nor expect it.
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I do think it would have been better if all games had been played today At 3 pm with perhaps 1 early TV game and a 530pm one too followed immediately by the 4th rd draw
Stringing this out over 5 days dilutes a lot of interest .
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I do think it would have been better if all games had been played today At 3 pm with perhaps 1 early TV game and a 530pm one too followed immediately by the 4th rd draw
Stringing this out over 5 days dilutes a lot of interest .
Of course it does, but don't let's kid ourselves that the TV companies don't love it.
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I'm going for my first game this year (I used to go every week but quite frankly cannot afford it any more as I live up north and earn next to nothing) against Liverpool with two friends. I'm more looking forward to showing them the library and the pubs round town than the Villa - I've already apologised for what they're about to see. I'd love to see a rocking Villa Park but from what I've seen of the team lately, they can neither deserve nor expect it.
The Bartons Arms is a must. As ever, the football will be an unwelcome distraction from a good day out.
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As I said in another post it's just boring most of the time.
For the first time in several seasons I shall be missing a home match (Stoke) to go and do something else on a Saturday that is nothing to do with football, that would have been unthinkable a few years ago. Now? Meh, they don't need me, I'm just supposed to be part of the entertainment. When was the last time Lerner was roaring us on?
If you make a fuss and complain (boo, anti-Lambert chants etc) while they're "playing" (I use the term loosely) you're "small time", if you just support them you're naïve, if you complain on here you "need to grow a pair" etc etc
Ever felt you've been taken for a ride?
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Maybe it's because i'm skint so am only getting to a smaller than usual amount of games, but I still enjoy going. I might be bored shitless like I was during the Parma, Orient and Sunderland games, but overall i'd still rather be there. That said, i'm not as gutted at missing games as I was years ago, but it's been like that for well over a decade.
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Maybe it's because i'm skint so am only getting to a smaller than usual amount of games, but I still enjoy going. I might be bored shitless like I was during the Parma, Orient and Sunderland games, but overall i'd still rather be there. That said, i'm not as gutted at missing games as I was years ago, but it's been like for well over a decade.
I used to feel uncomfortable and unable to relax if I was missing a game while that game was taking place.
I haven't been once this season, which is only part of the story, because the more important bit - for me, I mean, I wouldn't expect anyone else to give a shit, and have huge respect for those who still go to all the games - is that I don't regret not having renewed my ST or gone to any matches in the slightest. Not even remotely.
Look at where we are now. Which home match this season should I really feel bad about missing? Which one did i make the mistake not going to?
An easy win over Hull City?
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Yes I ask the same question. What's happened to the famous Holte End? It's mostly empty these days and worryingly quiet. Our players don't like scoring at that end either!
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Listenening to R5's build up for the Blyth Spartans game, I was intrigued to hear their chairman's response to a question about how great the FA Cup was for the finances of little clubs and what today's match would mean to the club. He pointedly remarked that in fact the club made a hell of a lot more money from last round as it was on live TV and that the seats they had to remove for some sort of media gantry would cost them £10,0000 while the earnings from being on MoD would be £6,500. Didn't sound to pleased about it, as you would imagine, and the embarrassed BBC chap moved swiftly on.
Also on that program they interviewed a group of fans from Cannock who follow the Spartans all over the country. One of them said 3 of them had been season ticket holders at Villa for 14 years before getting pissed off with top level football.
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Listenening to R5's build up for the Blyth Spartans game, I was intrigued to hear their chairman's response to a question about how great the FA Cup was for the finances of little clubs and what today's match would mean to the club. He pointedly remarked that in fact the club made a hell of a lot more money from last round as it was on live TV and that the seats they had to remove for some sort of media gantry would cost them £10,0000 while the earnings from being on MoD would be £6,500. Didn't sound to pleased about it, as you would imagine, and the embarrassed BBC chap moved swiftly on.
Also on that program they interviewed a group of fans from Cannock who follow the Spartans all over the country. One of them said 3 of them had been season ticket holders at Villa for 14 years before getting pissed off with top level football.
When Stourbridge put in extra seats for their FA Cup games they make something daft like 90p each on them.
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Listenening to R5's build up for the Blyth Spartans game, I was intrigued to hear their chairman's response to a question about how great the FA Cup was for the finances of little clubs and what today's match would mean to the club. He pointedly remarked that in fact the club made a hell of a lot more money from last round as it was on live TV and that the seats they had to remove for some sort of media gantry would cost them £10,0000 while the earnings from being on MoD would be £6,500. Didn't sound to pleased about it, as you would imagine, and the embarrassed BBC chap moved swiftly on.
Also on that program they interviewed a group of fans from Cannock who follow the Spartans all over the country. One of them said 3 of them had been season ticket holders at Villa for 14 years before getting pissed off with top level football.
When Stourbridge put in extra seats for their FA Cup games they make something daft like 90p each on them.
Don't know if they had to put in extra seats, but didn't Chasetown make a few hundred grand out of their cup run a few years ago?
As for the debate about home support, I think we're far from the only ones with that issue. The noise from home fans is minimal at most grounds I've been to over the last few seasons.
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Well my mate said we've only sold 12k tickets for today, if that is the case I don't expect much of an atmosphere
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Agree with everything you say Witton Warrior.I use to hate missing a reserve match let alone a first team match. The football under Lambert is so boring and predictable that i find it hard to motivate myself into going these days. In fact for the first time in my life ,this season i have actually missed quite a few games by choice and have been surprised how easy it has been
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Three home games in a week, after no goals in the previous two and at the end of a financially testing time of year is always going to result in a low crowd. I'm going lower North Stand today because a tenner is the very most this game is worth.
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And its only the FA Cup. As much as the sports press love "the romance of the cup" fans don't and have voted with their feet for years. Nobody cares until you are within sniffing distance of Wembley.
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The club's heart isn't in it, and the same can be said for many fans. Who can blame them? We're pretty pointless at the moment.
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Also on that program they interviewed a group of fans from Cannock who follow the Spartans all over the country. One of them said 3 of them had been season ticket holders at Villa for 14 years before getting pissed off with top level football.
Thought that was one of the better interviews that I've listened to lately.
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Maybe it's because i'm skint so am only getting to a smaller than usual amount of games, but I still enjoy going. I might be bored shitless like I was during the Parma, Orient and Sunderland games, but overall i'd still rather be there. That said, i'm not as gutted at missing games as I was years ago, but it's been like for well over a decade.
I used to feel uncomfortable and unable to relax if I was missing a game while that game was taking place.
I haven't been once this season, which is only part of the story, because the more important bit - for me, I mean, I wouldn't expect anyone else to give a shit, and have huge respect for those who still go to all the games - is that I don't regret not having renewed my ST or gone to any matches in the slightest. Not even remotely.
Look at where we are now. Which home match this season should I really feel bad about missing? Which one did i make the mistake not going to?
An easy win over Hull City?
The above pretty much sums up how I feel - Followed the club for over 50 years - gave up two season tickets this season - haven`t been to game home or away either this season - Am I bothered ? Shamefully no I am not - Jnr has taken up golf and I am supporting him in his new hobby.
The whole aura at the club (Villa, not the golf) is so downbeat and negative ...its not an enjoyable experience anymore. The only thing jnr and I miss - the balti pie and chips pre match from a shitty little chip shop close to the ground.
Once you get out of the habit and realise that you can actually spend your money on things more enjoyable it becomes harder to return to the fold.
We drove back from a New Year holiday yesterday (Holland) and passed Villa Park on our way back to Merseyside - I said to jnr - " do you fancy going to the match tomorrow?" - without hesitation he said - "why bother - it will be crap" That is just how I feel.
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I gave up going regularly the end of the second MON season. It was nothing to do with us being crap to watch, spending no money, clueless manager etc I just didn't enjoy the modern match day anymore. I missed moving around during the game, I missed standing, I didn't like paying £30 for a ticket, I didn't enjoy how uncompetitive the division was. Since then I've been to about 20 times, probably watched 5 or so good compelling games. There's nothing about modern football or Villa right now that would tempt me back. Fair do's to those still fighting the good fight.
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I still go every now and again, but it's the McLeish year that knocked the stuffing out of me. Not just the fact that it was boring and awful football, but mainly because of Lerner appointing McLeish showed how he didn't have a clue how to run this football club.
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My brother and his two kids gave up their season tickets last year after 10 years, brothers been a regular for 35 years. I couldn't say I blamed him. It's a shed load of money and they were being badly short changed entertainment wise by the club.
They had a chat one day and came to the conclusion that their hearts rent in it and they'd pick their games. THey went to a few last year, I went back for a visit which coincided with the Citeh home game, but the kids have moved on. They see an uncompetitive club floundering with absolutly no ambition. They've not been at all this season.
When the club lose this type of supporter it's reached a real breaking point.
To answer the OP's question, they've more than done their part down the years, of that I'm certain. It's the club at arn't doing enough.
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The Sunderland game was a weird atmosphere from start to finish. I probably manage six home games and about the same away each season these days, after 30 years of going, and that's the first time there's been an absolute malaise from start to finish.
I took the missus, for her one game a season, and she noticed it from the start too. "Why's nobody singing?", she said. "It'll get going soon", I said and then looked at my watch to see it was 2.55.
By the time the teams came out there hadn't been one song sung from the Holte. Maybe it was because it was cold. Maybe it was because everyone just wanted to chat about their Christmas. Maybe it was because there was no effort to create an atmosphere (dumb as it sounds, why does the giant flag only appear for the big teams?). Maybe it was because Lambert had for some reason dropped Okore, or not picked Grealish. Maybe it was because 0-0 at 7/1 was the most predictable outcome of the lot.
It seemed to take the Delph red to wake us out of our collective slumber, and it was only in the last 15 minutes that there was any noise around us in K5. Sunderland fans promptly told us they'd forgot that we were there. They had a point. It was like being at Upton Park, where in twenty years of games I haven't heard the home end once before the 75 minute mark.
Away games are great. Up to 3,000 people all wanting to make some noise and get behind the team. I've already got tickets for Arsenal, a game I don't expect to get anything out of but an experience I know will be worth the investment. I've seen us at West Ham, QPR and Palace, and even though the performances were average, the atmosphere was great each time.
But it's different at home games. Where to sit for the best atmosphere is the first question – the lower Holte has more kids, the upper Holte has more grumbling pensioners at the front and a dwindling number of teenagers who want to sing at the back (forgive the sweeping generalisations). The whole Brigada effort in L9 appears to be quietening down, and I make no judgement as to why that is. But it makes you wonder how we can do anything about it, and whether the club would actually engage with any effort to improve the atmosphere. Whatever the solution is (singing sections, offering away fans deals in the same block, reducing ticket prices), it has to come from the fans first.
For me, the fact that train prices and match tickets make it an eighty quid and six hour investment makes it easier to decide not to go to many home games any more. If it continues like it did at the Sunderland game, I can't imagine why you'd want to go even if you lived around the corner. And that's what's most disheartening.
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After 10 years in the same seat in the Holte End I didn't renew in the summer. I ran out of hope that I would see anything different happen under Lambert, going to games has just become a nightmarish groundhog day as far as I'm concerned.
I am certainly not going to criticize people for not singing when I am not even going anymore. Anyone sat in that ground on match day deserves a medal as far as I'm concerned.
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Is there any old timers out there who can compare the current atmosphere around the club with what it was like in the mid 60s? When I was younger, those who went in the days before the "Revolution" used to tell us kids that going to the Villa simply became a chore and it was only really a lack of an alternative and the fact that many people still worked Saturday mornings that kept people going.
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When you do stop going, the initial feeling that you are missing out on something, is easier to take if we lose. The fans who have stopped going this season will very quickly realise they are not missing anything. I used to worry if I didn't go I would be missing an historic, "I was there when.." win, that comes around every season or so, but we all know these are getting further and further apart.
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Regarding the club not making enough effort.... we have no assistant manager and our one other outfield coach is another one of Lamberts numpties from Norwich who got a promotion from youth team training. We've gone was it 3 months in to a season before with no manager and entered this season with no CEO. We've played games where the average age of the team has been around 23 and the total number of top flight games combined were tiny.
The lack of effort comes from the prat who's been running the club in to the ground for the past 4 years. He supposedly has his passion back? Where is it then, because if he had any passion Lambert would have been fucked off the minute it reignited.
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I believe that supporting your club means more than sitting on the internet moaning. I go because I love the club not the custodians.
The atmosphere is shit at times as at 90% of clubs. Stoke for instance were shocking.
If you can't afford to go then fair enough but you sign up to be a Villa fan for life.
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I've been twice this season. Firstly against Orient where it was understandable the atmosphere wasn't the greatest. Secondly against Arsenal, where the atmosphere was actually very good until they scored 3 goals in about 4 minutes, which naturally deflated everyone.
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I believe that supporting your club means more than sitting on the internet moaning. I go because I love the club not the custodians.
The atmosphere is shit at times as at 90% of clubs. Stoke for instance were shocking.
If you can't afford to go then fair enough but you sign up to be a Villa fan for life.
How do you define "can't afford to go then fair enough"?
Do you mean, physically don't have the £40+?
Or do have the money, but would rather spend it on something more likely to make you and family happy?
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David Cameron and Duke of Cambridge 2015 resolutions are to do more for AVFC
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I do wonder if this could have been avoided if Lerner had done the right thing in the summer and sacked Lambert. Endorsing him with a new 4 year contract was like a punch in the stomach.
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I do wonder if this could have been avoided if Lerner had done the right thing in the summer and sacked Lambert. Endorsing him with a new 4 year contract was like a punch in the stomach.
Well I can only speak for myself but I would have renewed in the summer if Lambert had gone and so would my mate who I go with. My blood ran cold when I saw the new contract story.
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After 10 years in the same seat in the Holte End I didn't renew in the summer. I ran out of hope that I would see anything different happen under Lambert, going to games has just become a nightmarish groundhog day as far as I'm concerned.
I am certainly not going to criticize people for not singing when I am not even going anymore. Anyone sat in that ground on match day deserves a medal as far as I'm concerned.
Reading various threads on here it seems like a lot of the posters barely go to matches at the moment. I gave up my season ticket and haven't been much but I know it's in my blood. As soon as changes are made and hope returns to Villa Park I will return with new enthusiasm. I witnessed the two recent 0-0 games, yes the crowd were very quiet but it's hard to get too excited if the ball is barely ever in the opponents final third.
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The days of unconditional support - in the sense of money forked out - ended a while ago, probably roughly the same time that going to a football match became an expensive pursuit rather than one for which you paid a couple of quid.
In the Sky era there has been a gradual move, in practical terms, from "supporters" to "customers", in many senses.
The fans weren't the ones who started this, the clubs were, and this ultimately leads to a situation where, you're treating people like customers - with the cold hearted profit based mindset that this implies, where it is all about the money they can get you to part with - rather than like fans, ie people who, instead of being consumers of a service who make rational purchasing decisions, are emotionally and psychologically attached to the club, a relationship which works both ways, the fans love "you" and this is the main driving force in the club-supporters relationship.
When you then start charging 40 or 50 quid or more to attend a match, and you also rake in the huge amounts of money on offer to allow your matches to be shown on television, then you really change the relationship which has been at the heart of football for over 100 years.
You (and by "you" I mean clubs) can not in one breath expect - random example - a family of mom dad and a few kids to fork out up to 200 quid to attend a football match and expect there to be no change in the relationship between you and the people sat there in the Holte End. It just doesn't work that way.
Take our current season, there's a big, big difference between playing 20 league games and only scoring 11 goals when you've got people paying the equivalent of the price of a few pints and doing the same when people are paying the equivalent of their supermarket food bill for the week.
The flip side of charging people enormous amounts of money to come and watch you is that you change the dynamic between you and the people in question. It isn't just a "keep increasing the cost, and don't worry about the quality" situation, you've got to give them reasons to keep coming back. You can't do that and then expect the fans to be the ones who give the club a lift, it just doesn't work that way anymore.
This current mess is a mess of the club's making. The falls in attendances have been pretty noticeable, but I honestly hope the club are shitting themselves about it, because they really need to be.
I can't talk for anyone else, but I have gone, in the course of a decade or a bit more, from season ticket and lots of away matches a season, to picking and choosing games and going to quite a few, to picking and choosing and deciding not to go to any (this season).
I wouldn't expect the club to give too much of a shit about me, but they should be more than a bit worried about the fact that there are a lot of people in a similar situation, people who have sensed the total lack of ambition and decided that they're not going to play along with it any more.
I wonder how many other people on here there are who have gone from season ticket or attending lots of games to just not bothering in a short amount of time? Quite a few, I reckon.
Until the club give people like that a reason to come back and keep coming back, things will not start to get better.
Think about the last couple of fixtures. If there were people at the Sunderland and Palace games who maybe had never been before, or hadn't been in a while, how likely do we think they are to want to go back after having seen the almost total lack of clue in evidence on the pitch?
The chairman himself has admitted he's lost interest. How can he possibly expect other people to feel differently?
100 per cent this. Very well put !! I've gone from season ticket up until end of Mon season to 1 game a season last three years. Awful to admit , but I've just about stopped caring. I don't even watch a stream of a game any more. I hate that I feel like this , but I do :;
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I believe that supporting your club means more than sitting on the internet moaning. I go because I love the club not the custodians.
The atmosphere is shit at times as at 90% of clubs. Stoke for instance were shocking.
If you can't afford to go then fair enough but you sign up to be a Villa fan for life.
There are lots of Villa fans who don't get to games, for whatever reason.
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I'm in way arguing about being a better fan than anyone but I fail to understand (Geography and finance permitting) how you can not go down match after match, season after season. It's an opinion, nothing personal. Looking around 15000 tops.
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I believe that supporting your club means more than sitting on the internet moaning. I go because I love the club not the custodians.
The atmosphere is shit at times as at 90% of clubs. Stoke for instance were shocking.
If you can't afford to go then fair enough but you sign up to be a Villa fan for life.
I think you're mixing up internet forum members with people who just don't want to watch Villa any more. I'd actually suggest that if you took a poll of internet forum members, you'd probably have a higher than average number of season ticket holders. Most of the thousands who have drifted away from Villa probably don't post on the internet, and most simply can't justify spending such a lot of money for such a poor return. You may think that that makes you a better fan, but then I expect the average middle aged bloke with a mortgage to pay and family to support wouldn't care, and nor would the out of work 19 year old who struggles to make ends meet.
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I remember a couple of years back Damon used the phrase "real football supporters". I asked him what he meant by that and he said "people who go to games". I'm sorry but I'm not having someone look down on me because I live in London and am on benefits.
Following and talking about the Villa online is all someone like me can do so I think Hoppo is wrong on this. As walnuts says, there are any number of reasons why people don't or can't go to games.
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I'm in way arguing about being a better fan than anyone but I fail to understand (Geography and finance permitting) how you can not go down match after match, season after season. It's an opinion, nothing personal. Looking around 15000 tops.
What about the myriad other things people have in their lives?
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I'm in way arguing about being a better fan than anyone but I fail to understand (Geography and finance permitting) how you can not go down match after match, season after season. It's an opinion, nothing personal. Looking around 15000 tops.
What about the myriad other things people have in their lives?
I'm not sure reading books, playing computer games and growing an impressive beard qualifies as a myriad of other things Paulie. ;) If it does then I am claiming football books, football management games, bukkake porn and watching telly as my myriad of interests. Oh, and food&drink.
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It might be time for the Holte to chant some ideas out loud because it doesn't look like Lamberk is going to come up with any soon.
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professional footballers should be able to play to the best of their abilities regardless of the crowd size/noise.
it's up to the players, Lambert and the coaches to turn things around. it's not something that I think we can influence
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I can think of one Villa supporter in particular who clearly isn't doing enough, he gets to play quite often.
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I don't get to as many games as I used to when growing up when I was a season ticket holder and followed Villa all over the country - mid week cup games, replays you name it... One memory of those times where if Villa were to go a goal down - the noise from the Holte End was incredible - you swear we were the ones who`d just scored - we were really getting behind the team. Sadly those days are gone - although I do like going to away games in the North as the away support has the hint of those days of the 70`s...
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Two things for me
The lack of hope of ever being any good again (winning trophies) due to Sky. Football everywhere throughout Europe is totally uncompetitive with leagues won by the same couple of teams every year. So whats the point? The Champs league is boring me now because the same teams are in it every year. Many of my football mates who support different teams say the same
I could accept the above if Villa had a little ambition. I would still go if I thought we would have a bit of excitement every now and then. We clearly dont so ive only been twice this year. A change of ownership and manager would reignite some interest again
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If you gave many of the fans who have decided or have been forced to stay away a compelling reason to show up they would. It's amazing what a glimmer of hope does. Right now, the hardcore aside, fans sitting on the fence will find reasons not to come to Villa Park. Put out a good side worth watching and many of those reasons not to come start to evaporate.
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Might get some flak for this but should we be looking at ourselves (and I include myself in this) as playing a part in the current malaise / coma the whole club is in? Took my wife to the game against Palace as our little one was a mascot. He had a lovely day and was well looked after. She has no real interest in Football and hasn't been since the late 90's and during the 1st half, sat in the Trinity Road by the tunnel, she said to me "What's happened to the famous Holte End, they're not singing at all?" I said "Because they don't give us anything to sing about" and she replied "So you only bother to sing when you're winning, why don't you get behind them, the encouragement might help them score?"
Has she got a point (never thought I'd say that lol)?
I'm a season ticket holder in K5 Holte End Upper Tier and the atmosphere has been awful for a few years now as you all know. You can hardly hear the Holte from other parts of the ground and I know the current regime is currently sapping all of our enthusiasm as the football we are watching is abysmal but shouldn't we be doing our part too?
I was debating about going tomorrow but thought I'll go and get behind them so bought tickets while in town earlier. When we go away we are always great, goes without saying, but I think we, as supporters can do more too at home. If you hate Lambert, Lerner, some or all of the players it's still Aston Villa we love and they will all come and go but it's still OUR club to get behind and as supporters it's our job to support. Not having a go at anyone, just trying to add a home of positivity in current dour times.
Come on you Lions!!
No
Sing your hearts out for the lads. End of.
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Two things for me
The lack of hope of ever being any good again (winning trophies) due to Sky. Football everywhere throughout Europe is totally uncompetitive with leagues won by the same couple of teams every year. So whats the point? The Champs league is boring me now because the same teams are in it every year. Many of my football mates who support different teams say the same
I could accept the above if Villa had a little ambition. I would still go if I thought we would have a bit of excitement every now and then. We clearly dont so ive only been twice this year. A change of ownership and manager would reignite some interest again
But even in the CL, everything is weighted in favour of the same 8-10 teams and everyone else is just there to make up the numbers.
The whole thing revolves around "selling a product" i.e. TV subscriptions, mostly to areas that don't have high level leagues of their own.
Even the likes of Porto and Marseille are bit part players that don't fit the narrative of the "superstars" winning everything.
The whole thing has been reduced to some real life version of that Nike advert where Cantona is refereeing some tournament on a boat with Figo, Ronaldinho and others.
It's like some game of financial porn where the excitement comes from seeing how much money a team can spend to make "the brand" exciting for people thousands of miles away to "buy into".
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Where we sit in the upper DE, there are 3 rows of seats that are 90% ST holders.
Because they are decent seats, the vast majority of those seats were occupied yesterday, but not a single 'regular' was in them....our group of 4 were the only ones.
Yesterday was the first 'real' opportunity for season ticket holders to decide if they wanted to go or not.
I think that tells its own story.
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I have often asked myself the question which is ‘Were I still living in the UK, would I still have a season ticket?’ I personally could not fill the hole of a weekend without football and subsequently have a season ticket at my local and rather useless Dutch professional club. Nothing to me could replace the sights and sounds of a live game and certainly no telly subscription for Premier League games could come close. In some ways, having a season ticket has also given me a ready-made excuse not to go to Villa fans these days. Whereas I promised myself that I would get to VP at least 3-4 times as season no matter what, having live football here, plus the usual combination of cost and entertainment value have taken me down to 1 or 2 at maximum.
This then begs the question for me of whether I would still have a season ticket were I still living in the UK. I was living in Shropshire, so I could have conceivably dropped my season ticket and taken one up with a non-league team; or even Shrewsbury Town. I could have decided to go with my mates to more Port Vale away games and increase my numbers of away grounds visited, or I could have decided to just drop it all together. However, the reality is that, in all likelihood the pull of the team I support would have been too strong to take me down a different path and I would have still been frequenting my seat and bemoaning bitterly the state of affairs.
I guess in conclusion, moving away has made it a damn sight easier to break the bond with the club and tut at those who still shell out hundreds each year to support us, no matter what.
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I dont think she does have a point,sorry.
Randy Lerner is destroying our club,what is there to sing about,he single handedly has taken villa from a top 6 team,and lets be honest it should be better than that,to a regular relegation outfit.
teams like Swansea,west ham newcastle are talked about as big clubs,weve won more than all three put together.
the press laugh at us because of his attitude.
We got the Bednalls out,we got Ellis out and LERNER MUST BE NEXT before it is to late.
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He's only going to leave when the next billionaire turns up and there aren't too many of those floating around looking for middling Premier League outfits.
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I dont think she does have a point,sorry.
Randy Lerner is destroying our club,what is there to sing about,he single handedly has taken villa from a top 6 team,and lets be honest it should be better than that,to a regular relegation outfit.
teams like Swansea,west ham newcastle are talked about as big clubs,weve won more than all three put together.
the press laugh at us because of his attitude.
We got the Bednalls out,we got Ellis out and LERNER MUST BE NEXT before it is to late.
What do you plan to do then jollyjake?
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not alot, as you say, the game has changed, like the rest i will sit and watch the demise of my club because we got the wrong billionaire,sad is,nt it.
lets just hope the end is quick,this dying by the season is sad to see.
I,m to old to bother now,but i can assure you silent ones this would not have been tolerated by us that bought the shares to keep the place afloat 40 years ago. i may even become a glory hunter its easier realy.
sad jollyjake
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I'd argue we got the right billionaire at the wrong time and the fans got rid of neither Bendall nor Ellis. They both sold at a time and price of their choosing.
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I was going to say the same, Doug sold the club and done very well from it. He was not pushed out at all.
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how old are you?
doug ,who i have the greatest respect for was voted out the first .before hed been to the bluesnoses and derby.
look it up
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how old are you?
doug ,who i have the greatest respect for was voted out the first .before hed been to the bluesnoses and derby.
look it up
Surely, the fact that he came back and stayed for several decades suggests that, even by referring to the first time, we didn't actually manage to "get him out" (ie force him out) at all, certainly not with any permanency.
It is also worth mentioning that there is no ability to vote anyone out when they are the only shareholder.
I don't have much respect left for Lerner, either, but there's really no point suggesting we can force him out, because we can't - how, for example, do we magic up another billionaire to buy him out?
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SIr,
Know this there was a shareholders meeting held in the old witton rd stand(so many of us had shares).Doug was definately voted out and the Bednalls were voted in because they promised to keep Ron Saunders,who even you will agree was our best manager in living memory!
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SIr,
Know this there was a shareholders meeting held in the old witton rd stand(so many of us had shares).Doug was definately voted out and the Bednalls were voted in because they promised to keep Ron Saunders,who even you will agree was our best manager in living memory!
Yes, I know that.
I didn't say he wasn't definitely voted out, I am just pointing out that it didn't stay like that for too long, because he came back and haunted us for another few decades.
I also know a lot of people had shares, that's my other point - only one person has shares now, so I am not sure how you're imagining us getting Lerner out.
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Well really its happening gradualy,the attendances are down,income will be down,when Lerner realises what he is doing and the more and more stay away,his asset is constantly devaluing,even he will realise if we stay away in enough numbers he has got to sell or go bust.
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Sell to who?
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Sincere question: is his asset constantly devaluing?
Hasn't the residual debt remaining from the high-spending era now been removed, along with the remaining high-earners? Coupled with the large increase in income from domestic and overseas broadcasting rights, with the inflation of the latter showing no sign of slowing any time soon either, surely suggests that, unless the club is relegated, the value of his asset should remain at least constant. Or am I wrong in thinking along these lines.
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SIr,
Know this there was a shareholders meeting held in the old witton rd stand(so many of us had shares).Doug was definately voted out and the Bednalls were voted in because they promised to keep Ron Saunders,who even you will agree was our best manager in living memory!
In 1968 Birmingham City director Doug Ellis became Villa chairman. In 1975 he was succeeded as chairman by Sir William Dugdale but remained on the board. In 1979 he called an EGM in an attempt to force then-chairman Harry Kartz and the Bendalls off the board. He lost and resigned himself. In 1981 Ron Bendall became chairman. In the summer of 1982 Ellis was briefly chairman of Wolves. In December 1982 Ron Bendall sold his shares to Ellis, who became chairman again.
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as in the past back, to you and me sooner or later thats if theres enough of us left who care.
but like you i.m not optomistic.
perhaps this time we all just give in ,having be set a fine example by Lerner !
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If you're jollyjake I wonder what miserablejake is like.
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Well really its happening gradualy,the attendances are down,income will be down,when Lerner realises what he is doing and the more and more stay away,his asset is constantly devaluing,even he will realise if we stay away in enough numbers he has got to sell or go bust.
This is what I don't get when the 'fall in attendances' line gets trotted out.
Does anybody really think that Lerner will pack up and go just because of a few thousand off the gate receipts ?
As we are all aware, it is not our main stream of revenue (Sky put paid to that).
Survival in the premier league is everything to him (with or without the fans) and as long as Lambert keeps our head above the relegation spots there will be no managerial movement down at B6.
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as in the past back, to you and me sooner or later thats if theres enough of us left who care.
but like you i.m not optomistic.
perhaps this time we all just give in ,having be set a fine example by Lerner !
(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003940217/5734658468_bush_huh_answer_3_xlarge.jpeg)
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as in the past back, to you and me sooner or later thats if theres enough of us left who care.
but like you i.m not optomistic.
perhaps this time we all just give in ,having be set a fine example by Lerner !
(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003940217/5734658468_bush_huh_answer_3_xlarge.jpeg)
Being a 'yoot' and from the text speak generation I can generally decipher pretty well what's being said.
Here I have no idea.
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the end is nigh
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as in the past back, to you and me sooner or later thats if theres enough of us left who care.
but like you i.m not optomistic.
perhaps this time we all just give in ,having be set a fine example by Lerner !
(http://cdn.iwastesomuchtime.com/101720141506137.jpg)
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as in the past back, to you and me sooner or later thats if theres enough of us left who care.
but like you i.m not optomistic.
perhaps this time we all just give in ,having be set a fine example by Lerner !
(http://cdn.iwastesomuchtime.com/101720141506137.jpg)
I've cracked Paulies picture quiz. The top one is the bloke from The Grumbleweeds and the bottom one is Greg Dyke.
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as in the past back, to you and me sooner or later thats if theres enough of us left who care.
but like you i.m not optomistic.
perhaps this time we all just give in ,having be set a fine example by Lerner !
I agree but with the proviso I also disagree
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Just found out that I have to work on the 17th against Liverpool. No way out of it. That will be the first home game I will have missed since we thumped Bolton 4-2 around 2008/9ish. I cant decide whether missing this game is a good thing or a bad thing which is where my level of apathy is ATM.
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For the most part I think the supporters have been really good. There were a couple of strong crowds over Christmas (along with the smaller ones too). Compared to a lot of clubs, there has not been too much of a backlash against the manager given the form of the last 2-3 years. And the away form has been just as strong as normal. I was at the Palace away match and they sang their hearts out that night.
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For the most part I think the supporters have been really good. There were a couple of strong crowds over Christmas (along with the smaller ones too). Compared to a lot of clubs, there has not been too much of a backlash against the manager given the form of the last 2-3 years. And the away form has been just as strong as normal. I was at the Palace away match and they sang their hearts out that night.
Absolutely GB! I was waiting for Lambert to start the "fans are getting the players down" malarky - I think we are so desperate for anything positve after Houllier/TSM and 2 1/2 seasons of TOSM that we have given him far too much leeway. Apart from a brief showing at the end of the first season it has been dire, tedious and embaressing. I'm just waiting for him to come out whining "well they didn't like us losing at home all the time so I've changed that..." - keep the pressure on him and support the team when they are playing