Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: Leicester_Villian on January 02, 2015, 12:37:41 PM
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I am afraid our youth set up seems to have fallen apart ........ when did we last see anyone break into the first team and make an impression? My guess is we have to go back some time .......
For a club like us who do not wish to spend big this is the area where we need to focus and vastly improve ....lets be honest with ourselves we are no better than lower mid table and this will not change ....we need to bring players through and sell them on unless the ownership or policy changes
We seem to kid ourselves regarding the young players we have ....... Gary Gardner, he has struggled at the bottom of the Championship - he will not make it at Premiership level. I am sure the majority will agree with that however I get my next example could generate more comment.
While I accept its early days have we really seen a great deal in Jack Grealish to show he will achieve anything at the very top level? At the moment and I accept its early days he appears far too light weight and goes to ground far to easily. Yes I know he needs a run of games to show exactly what he can do but I have my concerns he will be like many others we have had in the past 10 years
Lets hope we can improve the set up but since Kevin Mc left things do appear to have gone downhill
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The reserves and the youth team seem to be mirroring our 1st team. I look on with envy at the players Southamton have coming through their system.
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You can't honestly answer this with any of the current youth players because they're not experienced enough. Picking out Grealish for example is grossly unfair, this is a kid who hasn't started a league game for us yet, what impression do you expect? Robinson is the same, he had a very good spell with Preston but has been called back and been ignored so he doesn't stand much chance of showing anything just yet.
However one of our best players this season is a youth product (Ciaran Clark) another of our youth players is a regular for Chelsea and England and will almost certainly go on to captain both, these players are at the age where you can judge them properly. You can even include Steven Davis who has been a regular in the very side you name as being jealous of for the last 3 seasons and Craig Gardner who has been a premier league regular for a number of clubs since leaving us, neither are spectacular but both have been more than good enough for where we are now.
When the first team aren't playing well it's almost impossible for young players to come through and have a big impact and that's been the case with us for most of the last 15 years. The only point where that wasn't the case we had a manager who steadfastly refused to rotate his squad so a lot of the players who could've progressed better largely stalled. Others who looked like great prospects have been damaged by injuries, that's just unfortunate, Gary Gardner, as you mention, looked like a star in the making but 2 career threatening injuries before you turn 21 is bound to have an impact.
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I see LV's point then Paul decides to remind us that we have in fact let a few decent young players go because we thought they were not good enough then they go on to secure premier league places and potentially prove they are better thn what we have currently.
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I think losing Kevin Mac and also Bryan Jones has badly impacted on our academy.
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I see LV's point then Paul decides to remind us that we have in fact let a few decent young players go because we thought they were not good enough then they go on to secure premier league places and potentially prove they are better thn what we have currently.
Cahill is often quoted as being let go by Villa, but it was due to MON not doing anything to retain him and I understand Cahill was ambitious and wanted a guaranteed start and MON disagreed, so he let him go. Can't blame Cahill for wanting away.
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Grealish has done more than enough to earn a run of starts. He won several free-kicks against Palace and he's very good at drawing fouls. He's also one of the few positive players we have who want to take defenders on. I'd like to see him get some starts and more game time to try and influence things, rather than getting 20 minutes here and there and trying to get up to speed in a game. He doesn't waste the ball much either. 90% passing accuracy.
As for some of the others, our academy must surely be producing better players than the likes of Sylla, Tonev, Bowery, Bennett for example. We've wasted too much time and effort on purchasing cheap youngsters from the lower leagues when we could have eased in some of our own youth players. Johnson for example has a lot of ability but he's 22 now and looks like he'll just drift off down the leagues. We've not done enough for some of our promising academy players. Last season I'd rather have seen more of Robinson rather than seeing Grant Holt, or Bowery. I don't think we did enough to give Fonz the right guidance and enough early loans either. Likewise, whilst we were a good side, he could have been used more but O Neill tended to go for a past it Heskey whenever Carew wasn't fit (which was quite often). Fonzy deserved more league starts around that period. I don't think we showed him enough faith. His attitude is questionnable yes, but sometimes if you give a lad the right guidance he'll start showing more gumption.
I don't think we're producing as good as we were 10 years ago, but I still think we're producing better players than a lot of the signings we made in the young, hungry experiement. We just need to get more of these lads out at 17-18 on loan to L1-2 sides. We did right by Grealish. Johnson as an example, we should have done more, particularly after so many promising Youth tournament displays and in pre-season last season.
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I wonder if Sid isn't getting pretty fed up with Lambert. No matter what is being brought through the academy, the best they can expect from Lambert is 10 minutes off the bench when he puts them in the squad.
They have more chance of experience out on loan and putting themselves in the shop window for other clubs to see any potential.
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I wonder if Sid isn't getting pretty fed up with Lambert. No matter what is being brought through the academy, the best they can expect from Lambert is 10 minutes off the bench when he puts them in the squad.
They have more chance of experience out on loan and putting themselves in the shop window for other clubs to see any potential.
We didn't give the likes of Johnson and Robinson enough play time this pre season either. There were a few who had played a fair amount the pre-season before and been among the squad, but not so much this pre-season (aside from a couple of token filler friendlies which were more like an Aston Villa XI).
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I see LV's point then Paul decides to remind us that we have in fact let a few decent young players go because we thought they were not good enough then they go on to secure premier league places and potentially prove they are better thn what we have currently.
Cahill is often quoted as being let go by Villa, but it was due to MON not doing anything to retain him and I understand Cahill was ambitious and wanted a guaranteed start and MON disagreed, so he let him go. Can't blame Cahill for wanting away.
O'Neill put a couple of obstacles in Cahill's way by buying Knight and Davies for the best part of £15m. Hardly encouraging for a young ambitious player. He had to go to Bolton to get regular Premier League football. Didn't Chelsea pay £20m for him? So that was £15m O'Neill's lack of faith in him brought us.
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I see LV's point then Paul decides to remind us that we have in fact let a few decent young players go because we thought they were not good enough then they go on to secure premier league places and potentially prove they are better thn what we have currently.
Cahill is often quoted as being let go by Villa, but it was due to MON not doing anything to retain him and I understand Cahill was ambitious and wanted a guaranteed start and MON disagreed, so he let him go. Can't blame Cahill for wanting away.
O'Neill put a couple of obstacles in Cahill's way by buying Knight and Davies for the best part of £15m. Hardly encouraging for a young ambitious player. He had to go to Bolton to get regular Premier League football. Didn't Chelsea pay £20m for him? So that was £15m O'Neill's lack of faith in him brought us.
The reported figures are £7m.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16438701
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Re Cahill. There are quite a few MON f**k up's that are now coming home to roost, probably the worst being the squandering of cash spent on players who didn't even make the bench let alone the first team.
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Spending nearly £30m on 5 CH in two years was pretty special. Plus another £20m on 4 fullbacks in the same time. Plus the wages for them all. Pubeheaded twat.
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Clark, Baker, Albrighton, Gardner x 2, Cahill, Barry, Agbonlahor, Grealish, Weimann, All currently playing at PL clubs, all came through our youth set up ( yes I know we bought Barry). That's 10, how many should we be producing?
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Clark, Baker, Albrighton, Gardner x 2, Cahill, Barry, Agbonlahor, Grealish, Weimann, All currently playing at PL clubs, all came through our youth set up ( yes I know we bought Barry). That's 10, how many should we be producing?
And Steven Davis so 10 even if we discount Barry, and Bannan is still at a premier league club and getting game time, Robinson has a few appearances and has become a regular on our bench. I agree we haven't produced a genuine superstar yet but we've got as good as record as pretty much anyone aside from Southampton in the last 10-12 years.
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And Ridgwell and Whittingham have had pretty decent careers to add to the list.
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I see LV's point then Paul decides to remind us that we have in fact let a few decent young players go because we thought they were not good enough then they go on to secure premier league places and potentially prove they are better thn what we have currently.
Cahill is often quoted as being let go by Villa, but it was due to MON not doing anything to retain him and I understand Cahill was ambitious and wanted a guaranteed start and MON disagreed, so he let him go. Can't blame Cahill for wanting away.
O'Neill put a couple of obstacles in Cahill's way by buying Knight and Davies for the best part of £15m. Hardly encouraging for a young ambitious player. He had to go to Bolton to get regular Premier League football. Didn't Chelsea pay £20m for him? So that was £15m O'Neill's lack of faith in him brought us.
The reported figures are £7m.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16438701
His contract was running down. He had been linked with moves of £20m when there was still time on his contract.
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Being linked is pretty meaningless though. Ultimately no one bought him at those prices.
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I see LV's point then Paul decides to remind us that we have in fact let a few decent young players go because we thought they were not good enough then they go on to secure premier league places and potentially prove they are better thn what we have currently.
Cahill is often quoted as being let go by Villa, but it was due to MON not doing anything to retain him and I understand Cahill was ambitious and wanted a guaranteed start and MON disagreed, so he let him go. Can't blame Cahill for wanting away.
Mon had a preference on defenders Collins and Dunne as well as money spent on them. Its also the case that Mon wanted defenders to defend first and leave the football to the midfielders and front runners. Cahill football style didn't fit with martins . This saw Cahill reluctantly leave. Cahill felt he offered something different and should be a centre back starter. He achieved this only by leaving . I would say he is now the best English international centre back and having been developed by villa its a credit
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Clark, Baker, Albrighton, Gardner x 2, Cahill, Barry, Agbonlahor, Grealish, Weimann, All currently playing at PL clubs, all came through our youth set up ( yes I know we bought Barry). That's 10, how many should we be producing?
How many of these are first choice players? The only one who is still up and coming but unproven is Grealish ....where are the others coming through?
How many of those would you select in a Villa side? OK Clark on current form and Cahill
My point is we sometimes kid ourselves that our youth set up is good ....it was but now seems to be going downhill
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I agree with you Leicester Villian. I'm not anti Lambert on everything but the way he has mid managed the next generation winners is criminal.
Take Callum Robinson on loan at Preston scoring goals, brings him back not a minute of football, he even lets him get cup tied so can play no part tomorrow.
I know results are not everything at youth level but since Bryan Jones left the wheels seem to have come off.
It all comes under Lambers leadership.
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Clark, Baker, Albrighton, Gardner x 2, Cahill, Barry, Agbonlahor, Grealish, Weimann, All currently playing at PL clubs, all came through our youth set up ( yes I know we bought Barry). That's 10, how many should we be producing?
How many of these are first choice players? The only one who is still up and coming but unproven is Grealish ....where are the others coming through?
How many of those would you select in a Villa side? OK Clark on current form and Cahill
My point is we sometimes kid ourselves that our youth set up is good ....it was but now seems to be going downhill
but the point is that we just don't know. If in 2-3 years Grealish, Robinson and Donacien are regulars then this 'batch' will have proven to be good as well, the issue is there's no point judging youth players until they hit 24-25, any earlier and you risk them either being a flash in the pan or writing them off too early.
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One thing southampton do is trust their youth system. Their club has been geared to signing players marginally beyond their means but supplementing them with (and sticking by) homegrown players, which balances the costs out. Tottenham on the other hand send loads of players out on loan and bring them back into the squad when they've had two/three seasons of experience.
I'm not sure what our strategy is. We seem to build good 18 years olds but have not worked out how to ensure they're good player for us when they're 25 years old.
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For some reason the local area doesn't produce its fair share of outstanding players. Two ways to show this:
1) think about England's best ever players and then think how many had london, Manc, Scouse, Geordie and Brummie accents. We're well under represented. I can only really think of Duncan Edwards tho I'm sure there are Moreau
2) think about villa's best ever youth players. In relatively recent history of say these were: little (Geordie), cowans (county Durham / mansfield) barry (brighton) Cahill (sheffield) shaw (bham)
Don't know why and happy to stand corrected but it does seem to me the area hasn't produced what you'd expect